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Sev
06-23-2012, 07:06 PM
If you want government to dictate your health care this is what happens.
Yup. Government is def the solution.


http://www.businessinsider.com/greek...ollapse-2012-6
<span style='font-size: 23pt'>The Saddest Thing You'll Read About Greece Today</span>

The Greek debt crisis has literally become a matter of life and death.

Reuters reports that the Greek health care system is cracking under crisis pressure, leaving many Greek citizens without access to basic medical services and vital drugs. Pharmaceutical companies have even begun crafting emergency plans that would get drugs into the country in the event of a complete currency fallout.

And it's not just well-visits and painkillers. People who need the care most—cancer patients and other life-threatening cases—just aren't getting the care and drugs they need. From Reuters:

"We're not talking about painkillers here - we've learned to live with physical pain - we need drugs to keep us alive," Mitta, a petite former marathon runner and herself a cancer survivor, said in a voice shaky with emotion.

That's not to say that Greek's pre-crisis health care was perfect. The country's health system has long been plagued by inefficiency, but it's only getting worse.

Greeks have long had to give medical staff cash “gifts” to ensure good treatment. Nevertheless the health system was considered “relatively efficient” before the crisis despite a variety of problems including a fragmented organization and excess bureaucracy, according to a 2009 report for the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development.

Public hospitals have even begun to reuse soiled sheets because they can't afford a new set for each patient. "It's tragic" radiology specialist Kiki Kiale tells Reuters, "but there's no other solution."

And things may only get worse in the short-run. Austerity orders from the IMF have demanded that Greece reduce its healthcare expenditure to under 6% of GDP, down from 10% of GDP as it currently stands.

Gayle in MD
06-24-2012, 08:39 AM
None of this has anything to do with us.

Why do you use an example of a country which was under thhe auspices of the severe austerity policies which have held back the Europen Recovery, as an example, when those methods are the same as the methods the Reiglicans have used, which have failed here, and obstructed our recovery, adding to unemployment, instead of investing in keeping Americans in their jobs.

We all know, the red states are throwing as many people out of work as they can.

We all know there are Red STates in this country where houses burn to the ground, because Firemen aren't allowed to go and put out the fires! Or they are so understaffed, due to Repiglicanism, they cannot meet the emergency needs of the public.

They rely on the Federal Government, to show up and save their asses, and then trash the Federal Government.

Crazy!

G.

Sev
06-24-2012, 02:48 PM
It has everything to do with us.

The nation has been betrayed by its elected officials.
The economic numbers speak for themselves and we are fiscally positioned in dangerous place.

Our political parties are now maneuvering around each other so that when the crash occurs they can blame the other rather than doing the tough and politically unpopular job.

Cheer for the democrats all you want Gayle. They are just as much traitors to this nation as the republicans.

eg8r
06-25-2012, 08:28 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">None of this has anything to do with us.</div></div>Way to go Einstein. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Nope it doesn't, at least not yet.

eg8r

Gayle in MD
06-25-2012, 08:44 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">None of this has anything to do with us.</div></div>Way to go Einstein. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Nope it doesn't, at least not yet.

eg8r </div></div>

You took my statement out of context.

Same ol' same ol' pointless post, intended only to irritate.

What is happening in Europe, is proof that the severe austerity policies of the Republican Party, have failed over there, and they have weakened recovery there, and here, as well.

Additionally, it is more proof that we need to tighten restrictions on Banks and other Financial Institutions, since they, (most in the top one percent?) destroyed our economy, and stole 3/4 of our country's wealth, and the banking industry is at the heart of the economic problems in Europe, as well as here.

Of course, seven years of "The deficits don't matter" Huge spending for corporate welfare.

Borrowing and hiding their unprecedented spending and borrowing, instead of adding the costs of their growing deficits to the budget.

Cutting taxes during two expensive wars, instead of raising taxes to pay for them.

Adding trillions in spending, while not paying for any of it, for example, on a huge giveaway to the pharmaceutical industry, adding unpaid coverage to entitlement costs.

Ignoraing years of warnings regarding the corruption in the banking industry, and the rising unsustainable cost of health care, and flaming the Real Estate Bubble, with irresponsibly low interest rates, and sending out the message to ratings agencies, and SEC regulators, to ignore the growing threats to our economy....and even removing the states rights to address the growing corruption, like Bush did, when states tried to address the growing threat of corrupt banking, and predatory lending, IOW, all Republican Policies, encompassed in Bush's "Ownership Society" all of which, combined, led us, AND EUROPE, down this ugly road.

Oh, But there is some good news.

I understand there are to be massive lay offs in the defense industry....mostly among Defense contractors....that will surely be a setp in the right direction, since defense contracting is traditionally where there has always been so much undetected, unaccounted for wasteful spending, cronyism, and corruption, formerly, much of it hidden from the public by the Corrupted, Military Industrial Congressional complex.

G.

eg8r
06-25-2012, 09:26 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Of course, seven years of "The deficits don't matter" Huge spending for corporate welfare.</div></div>LOL, besides the fact that the sentence doesn't make any sense...You can up that number to 10 since Obama is W's second coming.

eg8r

Soflasnapper
06-25-2012, 09:50 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It has everything to do with us.

The nation has been betrayed by its elected officials.
The economic numbers speak for themselves and we are fiscally positioned in dangerous place.

Our political parties are now maneuvering around each other so that when the crash occurs they can blame the other rather than doing the tough and politically unpopular job.

Cheer for the democrats all you want Gayle. They are just as much traitors to this nation as the republicans. </div></div>

Greece is far from the only country with nationalized health care arrangements. In fact, all industrialized countries have something along those lines, except the US (unless ACA remains in effect long enough to take full effect).

The bottom line is that NO country exceeds 50% our per capita cost, while covering everyone (which we do not), and achieving significantly better health outcomes for their population.

If anything, this is an exception that proves the rule. Imagine the trouble all those countries would be in if they had allowed a small corporate group of parasitic gougers to cause their health care costs to be more than double what they are. It is only the nationalized arrangements that prevent them having what we have here in this country as to exorbitant, unaffordable costs and cost increases, and 30th world rankings in many health indices.

eg8r
06-25-2012, 03:05 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The bottom line is that NO country exceeds 50% our per capita cost, while covering everyone (which we do not), and achieving significantly better health outcomes for their population.</div></div>I have spent nearly 2 months now over in the UK and I can honestly say, they are fine with their healthcare as long as they don't need anything urgent. Anything above an annual physical or routine teeth cleaning and they go looking for private healthcare. That is if they can afford it since it is expensive and they are already paying 20% VAT. Could you imagine what all the people in America would be saying if they started having a 20% sales tax every time they went to buy their flat panel TVs.

eg8r

Soflasnapper
06-25-2012, 05:36 PM
We'll soon find out if the Fair Tax people get to Romney and that guy wins.

eg8r
06-26-2012, 08:12 AM
You know as well as me that even if Romney did join the Fair Tax group (which would seriously make me reconsider voting for him as right now I will not be) he probably would not get the votes to pass it anyways.

I think Fair Tax would be a giant step forward for this country but getting something like that passed might take a miracle. However, as you mentioned in another thread, even getting some of the Fair Tax and not the whole would still be a step in the right direction.

eg8r

Soflasnapper
06-26-2012, 09:26 AM
You know as well as me that even if Romney did join the Fair Tax group (which would seriously make me reconsider voting for him as right now I will not be) he probably would not get the votes to pass it anyways.

If Romney gets in, we'll probably eventually have emergency powers imposed and things like that can be imposed, not voted upon. Because of the global war he'll step into on purpose.

However, as you mentioned in another thread, even getting some of the Fair Tax and not the whole would still be a step in the right direction.

As my memory fades, I cannot say for sure I didn't say something like that, but I definitely don't recall it. All I remember is arguing strenuously against the proposal, so I doubt I recommended any part of it as a good thing.

Your 20% VAT mention would be a good number compared to the 30% sales tax equivalent, at least, the Fair Tax would require (not using the inclusive dodge by which the FT advocates understate the required number).

eg8r
06-26-2012, 11:15 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As my memory fades, I cannot say for sure I didn't say something like that, but I definitely don't recall it.</div></div>The point you were making in the other thread is that even though you don't get everything you want in a bill you take solace in what you did get and begin working on the part you did not get. You were obviously referring to Dems not getting everything they want while this would be a 180 as far as Fair Tax.

You can continue to document the lie of 30% all you want but it doesn't become any more true just because you continue to repeat it.

eg8r

Soflasnapper
06-26-2012, 11:24 AM
I don't know how there could be a half-loaf on the Fair Tax.

Keep the income tax as well? That would be a horrible policy, far worse than the FT itself alone (which at least replaces the FIT regime).

The 30% is no lie, but how it would work when calculated as a sales tax equivalent. It's a fair point to say that is not how the income tax equivalent is done, and to show that math, but it's equally or more fair to point out the sale tax equivalency figure as well, as that is what it amounts to at the end of the day.

I acknowledge that point, as you should acknowledge my point as well, rather than falsely describing it as a lie. It's a respectable, and more accurate, way to look at it, in my view.

Sev
06-26-2012, 11:46 AM
Wait till they go for the VAT tax on top of everything.

That will work out well.