PDA

View Full Version : Pledge of Allegiance (non-pool related)



heater451
10-03-2002, 05:31 PM
Just thought some of the people here might want to add their vote to the talley--not that it really counts, but it's a cool idea. . . .

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002/06/27/pledge-hold.htm




=================

Tom_In_Cincy
10-03-2002, 11:24 PM
I had thought about this issue at some length.. I was wondering if I had my family with me and working in a foreign country.. would I want my children being forced by the local goverment to make a pledge to another country? Would I want my children saying prayers with other kids with a faith different than ours?

I don't like the goverment being so definitive on religous beliefs.. there is a separation of state and church law..

BUT, I still beleive that the church is about 200+ years in arrears in their TAXes.. no reason to give the church a free ride on taxes..

Duke Mantee
10-04-2002, 06:36 AM
Thanks, Tom. It's good to have access to the views of people who have been around and who can think--the tribal elders.

D.M.

eg8r
10-04-2002, 07:05 AM
tough to be in "arrears" when you are not told to pay them. If you don't owe it, then you don't owe it.

eg8r

SPetty
10-04-2002, 07:38 AM
After all the public outcry, I was surprised at the current poll results, in case you haven't seen them:

With almost 9 million votes:

59% in favor of leaving in "Under God"
41% in favor of removing "Under God"

60/40 isn't the overwhelming majority you would think this poll would produce.

stickman
10-04-2002, 08:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: eg8r:</font><hr> tough to be in "arrears" when you are not told to pay them. If you don't owe it, then you don't owe it.

eg8r <hr></blockquote>

Right on!

If I was working in another country with my family, I would have no illusions about changing the customs there. I really don't think that visiting foreign students are forced to pledge allegiance to our flag or pray to a God they don't believe in. And to all those folks who find the words "under God" offensive, send me all your offensive money that says "In God We Trust" LOL

Tom_In_Cincy
10-04-2002, 08:48 AM
eg8r,
You are correct.. I was making a statement.. that I thought the church should have started paying taxes when everyone else started.. somehow, someone, somewhere thought that the church didn't need to pay taxes.. I wasn't there to voice my opinion.. Now I am saying that there isn't a reason that the churchs shouldn't pay taxes.. unless they can prove they are providing services like the RED CROSS. At this time I am un-convinced that the majority of churchs in the USA provide the types of services that would exempt them from paying taxes.

Tom_In_Cincy
10-04-2002, 09:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>I really don't think that visiting foreign students are forced to pledge allegiance to our flag or pray to a God they don't believe in. <hr></blockquote>

But its ok for Americans to be told that they have to say only what the goverment wants us to say? or not say?

Confusing to me..

heater451
10-04-2002, 02:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: stickman:</font><hr>Right on!

If I was working in another country with my family, I would have no illusions about changing the customs there. I really don't think that visiting foreign students are forced to pledge allegiance to our flag or pray to a God they don't believe in. And to all those folks who find the words "under God" offensive, send me all your offensive money that says "In God We Trust" LOL <hr></blockquote>I think the man that originated the issue was a 'San Franciscan' American, yet an atheist.

Anyway, I would think that, in 1892 ( http://www.va.gov/pubaff/celebAm/pledge.htm ), the author(s) of the Pledge were aware of the "separation of State and Church", and so did not have the phrase "under God" in it. I seem to remember being told that the 'objectionable' phrase was added, as an anti-Communistic sort of move, but I don't know for sure. It's my opinion that most who wish to keep it in tend toward the Christian sort, and are objecting on knee-jerk religious grounds. On the other hand, it bothers me that one guy (the San Franciscan)has wasted so much time, energy, and money, by making our gov't have to bother with this. And, it's come to light, not because someone decided that it violates the Separation, but because the guy didn't want to force his daugher to say the words "under God". He could have simply told her that she could skip that part.

By the way, I respect the fact that you and Tom_in_Cincy look at the issue from the "if I were in the other shoes", and I agree that visiting students from another country shouldn't have to pledge to our flag, but what about those who live here? And, at what point are they no longer visiting--when their naturalized (which noone seems to do anymore)? When they've taken employment? When they have children here? When they come here, on anything beyond a temporary, student visa, or a vacation?

Another thing, it's not even an issue about the gov't forcing what to say or not, but what the words of the pledge--to the AMERICAN flag--should be. There is the choice not to say the pledge at all, but I would hope that more people would understand that the pledge is not about the words, but the concept. If you loved America, would you pick up a gun to defend it? Then what's so hard about saying the Pledge? For a patriot, I would think a more important part of the Pledge would be "and to the republic for which it stands".

It's too bad, that we no longer seem to know what constitutes that republic. . . .


(Sorry, I didn't intend to rant, it just came out that way.)



====================

jjinfla
10-04-2002, 03:26 PM
Tom, No one has to recite the pledge. Just like no one has to pray. The choice is up to the individual. Jake

10-04-2002, 07:08 PM
Why should anyone who is not a citizen or doesn't want to become a citizen of the United States Pledge Allegiance to the United States? Why would anyone expect them to?

(Of course, another good question would be, why should anyone who is not a citizen of the United States be entitled to Government financial assistance?)

On the other hand, why shouldn't any citizen who refuses to Pledge Allegiance to the United States be exiled?
- Slim

Tom_In_Cincy
10-04-2002, 07:12 PM
Exactly how many time does saying the pledge make it official?

I said it for 12 years in school, then went to Vietnam... I think I have said and done what is necessary to make my pledge mean something..

Exile for not saying the pledge? that is exactly what you would expect in 3rd world countries..

Here.. it just means you have exercised your right of silence.

eg8r
10-04-2002, 07:14 PM
lol, where does it say you have to right to silence!

eg8r
10-04-2002, 07:20 PM
I agree. It is tough for some to remember that was one of the reasons for there ever being a US. The original pilgrims wanted freedom of Christian religion.

The one thing that upsets me the most, is that after Sept 11 ( I don't remember the date, but you could find it on the Boortz site) is when the "wise" leaders of GeorgiaTech decided that it was not politically correct to raise an American flag over the medical building (or some building like this) since the building right next to it housed foreign students. Screw them. ( I don't mean screw them if they are foreign, I mean the screw them if they are foreign and they feel uncomfortable seeing a raised American flag).

eg8r

Tom_In_Cincy
10-04-2002, 07:26 PM
5th ammendment

phil in sofla
10-04-2002, 07:35 PM
Yes, you are correct-- after some 50 years, during which the pledge didn't have the phrase 'under God' in it, it was 'improved' by adding those words during the height of the Cold War, as a matter of both emphasizing that as compared to the godless atheistic Communists, God was on our side, and to encourage greater religious fervor in the country.

Same deal with how 'In God We Trust' got on the currency. That was around WW II, and it was another way to say God was on our side, even as the Germans at that time used the slogan 'Gott mitt uns' (God is with us).

That is, both these things, which people seem to think have been with us since the Founders, only showed up after about 180 years later, during which interim time the country seemed to do fine, and as a matter of wartime propaganda. I suspect either could be retired without harm to the country, and without disgracing what this country stands for (given that no one gave either a second thought for our country's first 180 years).

The Constitution (which our public officials are sworn to preserve and defend) itself has no reference whatsoever to God, mentioning religion only to say the state shouldn't involve itself in it, and that no religious tests could be applied for serving in office.

Since the direct stated reason to add 'under God' to the Pledge was to make the nation more Christian, that sure sounds like the government getting involved in religion to me, which makes me think the appellate court ruling striking it from the Pledge was probably correct on the merits. Not that I'm exercised about something that stood for the last 48 years without anyone noticing any problem with it.

As the Nazis claiming God was with them shows, just saying it doesn't make it true. And even if it is true in the case of America, only saying so officially 180 years into the history of this country because of wartime propaganda concerns makes adding those phrases by the government somewhat suspect to me. Ditto, the fact that the Pledge was composed by a self-avowed atheist socialist (which accounts for its original omission better than concern for the separation of church and state).

phil in sofla
10-04-2002, 08:27 PM
Well, the case law on not having to say the Pledge came about when the Jehovah's Witnesses objected on religious grounds, and for the same reason they refuse to swear oaths in court (and are allowed to merely 'affirm' that they will tell the truth rather than swear they will)-- they say, with some considerable backing from Biblical texts, that God forbids it.

Duke Mantee
10-04-2002, 08:45 PM
Slim:

You ask why citizens who refuse to pledge allegiance to the United States shouldn't be exiled. Well...because their refusal to take part in public exhibitions of semi-religious patriotic folly doesn't make them bad individuals, bad neighbors, or bad citizens.

If YOU get a kick out of reciting memorized ritual promises to an elected government--under God or otherwise--then go ahead: pledge your brains out. You'll be an inspiration to a lot of wonderful folks.

D.M.