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Gayle in MD
07-08-2012, 07:05 AM
Oklahoma City
By: Andrew Gumbel.

A full expose' with complete documentation providing the clearest picture so far, of how and why all of the previous warnings of the coming, tragic Oklahoma City bombing by radical, RW government haters, could have been, but wasn't prevented, and how Republican policies were linked to the eventual, horrendous tragedy.

G.

Sid_Vicious
07-08-2012, 07:47 AM
Respectfully Gayle, that is way old news to start a thread over. Hell, I would see more merit by bringing up the total f-ups Bush did over 911, IMO he allowed it to happen. If it was me, Okla city story would have to have a true and blaring smoking gun. Sorry, but I suggest dropping this avenue totaly. There are bigger fish to fry My Friend. sid~~~definitely a leftie

Gayle in MD
07-08-2012, 07:55 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sid_Vicious</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Respectfully Gayle, that is way old news to start a thread over. Hell, I would see more merit by bringing up the total f-ups Bush did over 911, IMO he allowed it to happen. If it was me, Okla city story would have to have a true and blaring smoking gun. Sorry, but I suggest dropping this avenue totaly. There are bigger fish to fry My Friend. sid~~~definitely a leftie </div></div>

Did you bother to look into the book at all, before you decided that it wasn't important, Martin?

FYI, the failure to prevent the Oklahoma City bombing, and also to some degree, the failure to prevent 9/11, along with the formerly hidden facts on both, are also in the book.

I don't think is it ever no longer important to add to our knowledge about why these tragedies weren't preventd, and why some of those who contributed, are still at large, and could remain a threat today.

The full title: Oklahoma City: <span style='font-size: 14pt'>What The Investigation Missed And Why It Still Matters</span>

While Oklahoma City was the focus, the material included covers far more than that.

No longer of interest?

To up-date with formerly unavailable factual information why these tragedies weren't prevented, when they surely could have been prevented, should always be of interest, IMO.

Sorry I didn't include more facts in the original recommendation.
I can't agree that these formerly unavailable facts, are no longer important.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Review
“Extraordinarily well-researched… The book brilliantly deconstructs the investigation.” (Wall Street Journal )

“The story of the Murrah building bombing receives its most comprehensive accounting yet… It is a cautionary and at times startling tale, <span style='font-size: 14pt'>filled with bizarre characters from the outer fringes of American political life, with continuing relevance today.”</span> (Michael Isikoff, The Daily Beast )

“Impressive... There are enough freak-show touches to keep an FX drama stocked for three seasons… As Gumbel and Rogers tell it, the bombing investigation fell short of discovering the truth because of sloppiness, self-serving intra-office politics, and obstructive turf wars among law enforcement agencies.” (Salon )

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>“A well-reported, sober assessment... They make a strong case that some individuals involved in the bombing remain at liberty...the message is important for the future security of the U.S. citizenry.” </span>(Kansas City Star )

“Credible and relevant... Offers a perspective other than what was proved at the trials of Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols...and <span style='font-size: 14pt'>explores the unsettling question of whether such an event could happen again by homegrown perpetrators.” </span>(Tulsa World )

“This crisply written, fully documented book will anger you.” (The Tucson Citizen )

“The most comprehensive account yet...will dash the smug assertions at the time that the feds had caught all the perpetrators.” (The Commercial Dispatch (Mississippi) )
About the Author
Andrew Gumbel has worked for more than twenty years as a foreign correspondent for British newspapers the Guardian and the Independent, including assignments in the Balkans, Italy, the Middle East, and, since 1998, the United States. He has won awards for investigative reporting and political commentary, and written widely for U.S. publications including the Los Angeles Times and The Atlantic.

His book Steal This Vote: Dirty Elections and the Rotten History of Democracy in America was published to great acclaim in 2005. He was born in England and educated at Oxford University.

Roger G. Charles is a retired lieutenant colonel of the U.S. Marine Corps and an awardwinning investigative journalist who has worked with a wide variety of media outlets, including Newsweek, Vanity Fair, ABC (Nightline, Primetime Live), CBS's 60 Minutes II, and the BBC. In 1996 and 1997 he was a consultant on the Oklahoma City bombing for ABC's 20/20. He also worked as an investigator for Stephen Jones and the legal team defending Timothy McVeigh in his federal trial. Charles was born in Texas, raised in West Virginia, and graduated from the U.S. Naval Academy in Annapolis, Maryland, in 1967.



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Customer Reviews
(10)4.5 out of 5 stars5 star74 star23 star02 star11 star0See all 10 customer reviews “
I found this book to be tremendously researched and fast paced at the same time. ”
BriB | 1 reviewer made a similar statement

In one crucial way I hope Gumbel and Charles will be proven wrong. ”
AvidReader | 1 reviewer made a similar statement

This book is truly an eye opener for me and I'm sure for anyone who reads it. ”
Pirate2240 | 1 reviewer made a similar statement Most Helpful Customer Reviews
6 of 7 people found the following review helpful
The More We Learn, the Less We Know May 14, 2012
By AvidReader
Format:HardcoverI remember watching media coverage of the FBI building bombing in 1995 and thinking that there had to be more to the story than just Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols driving a truck up to the building and walking away. Let's face it, the planning and execution seemed to require far more intelligence, legwork, and coordination than either of them seemed capable of.

In this rich, detailed book, Andrew Gumbel and Roger Charles help fill in some of the gaps by examining concentric circles of people who may have played a role in motivating and/or enabling McVeigh and Nichols. Gumbel and Charles also dissect, for the first time publicly, what the government likely knew and didn't know before and after the bombing and highlight just how much still remains unknown after all of these years. That they got so many top officials to voice their frustrations with the investigation and the lack of transparency speaks volumes about the authors' tenacity in trying to get to the bottom of what really happened. But it also means that we'll likely never know much more than what Gumbel and Charles managed to dig up on how all of the pieces fit together.

In one crucial way I hope Gumbel and Charles will be proven wrong. I hope the government _is_ now better able to keep track of home-grown terrorists who have the will and the means to follow in McVeigh's footsteps and that the different agencies _are_ now better prepared to coordinate their efforts in preventing an event like this from happening again. And I sincerely hope we never have to test their all-too-realistic prediction to the contrary.
</div></div>

G.

Sid_Vicious
07-08-2012, 08:24 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sid_Vicious</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Respectfully Gayle, that is way old news to start a thread over. Hell, I would see more merit by bringing up the total f-ups Bush did over 911, IMO he allowed it to happen. If it was me, Okla city story would have to have a true and blaring smoking gun. Sorry, but I suggest dropping this avenue totaly. There are bigger fish to fry My Friend. sid~~~definitely a leftie </div></div>

FYI, the failure to prevent 9/11, along with the formerly hidden facts on that, are also in the book.

While Oklahoma City was the focus, the material included covers far more than that.

Sorry I didn't include those facts in the recommendation.

G.
</div></div>

I am saying it again,,,American system is broken. Bush is a treasonist and easily quilty as hell. Until we Americans can "clean house properly"...we ain't no better that the Syrian president today. Worst part is that our own people here allowed Bush to escape.

Point is...why even spend time with Oklahoma or 911 anymore? The cheap-thinking people we call conservative thinking Americans are all wasted on ignorance. If 911 wasn't a wake up call, fuggetaboutit. Nobody listens. Bush not convicted??? Our sistem is broken, and we've just not gotten to the point in world history where this country will never accept the crimes like Bush's so casually....call it narcissism or laziness. It is all stupid to me, besides being UN-American and self destructive.

Obama is a saint, but he is as naive as it gets. Peolsi was even worse. "Our nice Dem nice-guys" are a big part of this current problem. You can not get any bi-partisan support, evil has it's hold. All of "you half full glass thinkers" do is weaken the system.

Sure would have been far better under Hillary. sid

llotter
07-08-2012, 08:30 AM
It was Jefferson who said that the tree of liberty must be nourished by the blood of patriots and I guess implicit in that thinking is that the enemy (read gov.) will spill even more blood as happened in OK.

Gayle in MD
07-08-2012, 08:50 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: llotter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It was Jefferson who said that the tree of liberty must be nourished by the blood of patriots and I guess implicit in that thinking is that the enemy (read gov.) will spill even more blood as happened in OK. </div></div>

Doesn't surprise me that you think the Government is the enemy.

Radical RW groups, are still a threat in this country. They are all governmennt haters.

Government is what we as voters, struggle and work together, to make it.

Education is the key to an effective, democratically elected, representative system.

Nothing threatens peace and prosperity more than an ignorant electorate.

Against all Enemies, Foreign ad Domestic...
is far more than just a book title.

G.

Gayle in MD
07-08-2012, 09:04 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sid_Vicious</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sid_Vicious</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Respectfully Gayle, that is way old news to start a thread over. Hell, I would see more merit by bringing up the total f-ups Bush did over 911, IMO he allowed it to happen. If it was me, Okla city story would have to have a true and blaring smoking gun. Sorry, but I suggest dropping this avenue totaly. There are bigger fish to fry My Friend. sid~~~definitely a leftie </div></div>

FYI, the failure to prevent 9/11, along with the formerly hidden facts on that, are also in the book.

While Oklahoma City was the focus, the material included covers far more than that.

Sorry I didn't include those facts in the recommendation.

G.
</div></div>

I am saying it again,,,American system is broken. Bush is a treasonist and easily quilty as hell. Until we Americans can "clean house properly"...we ain't no better that the Syrian president today. Worst part is that our own people here allowed Bush to escape.

Point is...why even spend time with Oklahoma or 911 anymore? The cheap-thinking people we call conservative thinking Americans are all wasted on ignorance. If 911 wasn't a wake up call, fuggetaboutit. Nobody listens. Bush not convicted??? Our sistem is broken, and we've just not gotten to the point in world history where this country will never accept the crimes like Bush's so casually....call it narcissism or laziness. It is all stupid to me, besides being UN-American and self destructive.

Obama is a saint, but he is as naive as it gets. Peolsi was even worse. "Our nice Dem nice-guys" are a big part of this current problem. You can not get any bi-partisan support, evil has it's hold. All of "you half full glass thinkers" do is weaken the system.

Sure would have been far better under Hillary. sid </div></div>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All of "you half full glass thinkers" do is weaken the system </div></div>

Are you aiming that at me, Sid?

There was really no need to reiterate. I understood your point of view. I just don't happen to agree with it, nor do I believe that the answer to improving anything important, is to just quit!

We can quit, or we can work to reverse the destructive trends which threaten our peace, safety and prosperity.

You may think it unimportant to educate ourselves about the growing threat of radical RW domestic terrorism. I don't agree. To each his own.

Half full or half empty, is irrelevant, IMO.

Ignorance is the enemy. Education is the cure.

While I don't agree at all with your opinions about the president, and Nancy Pelosi, I fail to see what any of that has to do with a book recommendation.

G.

llotter
07-08-2012, 09:48 AM
Getting a lecture on violence from anyone on the Left is laughable. Violence and threats of violence and intimidation are the Left's middle names and resorted to every time they gather for whatever reason.

Gayle in MD
07-08-2012, 09:50 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: llotter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Getting a lecture on violence from anyone on the Left is laughable. Violence and threats of violence and intimidation are the Left's middle names and resorted to at regularly and often. </div></div>

The facts prove you wrong, particularly over the last thirty years.

Add of the experts and orgainzations which appraise current domestic threats, have been warning us for several decades of the serious threat from Governmennt hating, radical Rw organizations.

Additionally, all of the hate on Talk Radio, gun threat references, abortion clinic bombings, white supremacists threats of violence, KKK anti-American hate speak and cross burnings, idiots like Sharon Angle, racism like Jan Brewer, it is all coming from the radicalized right, of the Republican Party, which is totally radicalized, now, with no moderates included.

Ss I have proven here many times by posting information from some of the most respected organizations, such as The Southern Poverty Law Center, and Homeland Security, we are having a serious problme, with Radical RW zealots, many of them so called "Christians" and most all of them, recist, homophobic, misogynists.



G.

llotter
07-08-2012, 09:55 AM
You are in denial.

Gayle in MD
07-08-2012, 09:59 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: llotter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are in denial. </div></div>

You are in denial. The statistics back my claims up.

I've already posted them numerous times on this site.

G.

llotter
07-08-2012, 10:38 AM
perhaps youa would post them again. I see union violence, urban riots, OWS, the infamous purges in communist China and Russia, death camps in NAZI Germany and on and on and on.

Gayle in MD
07-08-2012, 10:48 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: llotter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">perhaps youa would post them again. I see union violence, urban riots, OWS, the infamous purges in communist China and Russia, death camps in NAZI Germany and on and on and on. </div></div>

All created be the radical Right Wing.

Look it up for yourself. I no long waste my time on the deniers.

http://www.southernpovertylawcenter.org

Here's a freebie for ya...


http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/hate-incidents
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WASHINGTON – A newly unclassified Department of Homeland Security report warns against the possibility of violence by unnamed “right-wing extremists” concerned about illegal immigration, increasing federal power, restrictions on firearms, abortion and the loss of U.S. sovereignty and singles out returning war veterans as particular threats.

The report, titled “Right-wing Extremism: Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment,” dated April 7, states that “threats from white supremacist and violent anti-government groups during 2009 have been largely rhetorical and have not indicated plans to carry out violent acts.”
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<span style='font-size: 20pt'>However, the document, first reported by talk-radio host and WND columnist Roger Hedgecock, goes on to suggest worsening economic woes, potential new legislative restrictions on firearms and “the return of military veterans facing significant challenges reintegrating into their communities could lead to the potential emergence of terrorist groups or lone wolf extremists capable of carrying out violent attacks.”

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The report from DHS’ Office of Intelligence and Analysis defines right-wing extremism in the U.S. as “divided into those groups, movements and adherents that are primarily hate-oriented (based on hatred of particular religious, racial or ethnic groups) and those that are mainly anti-government, rejecting federal authority in favor of state or local authority, or rejecting government authority entirely. It may include groups and individuals that are dedicated to a single issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration.”</span>“[T]he consequences of a prolonged economic downturn – including real estate foreclosures, unemployment and an inability to obtain credit – could create a fertile recruiting environment for right-wing extremists and even result in confrontations between such groups and government authorities similar to those in the past,” the report says.


It adds that “growth in these groups subsided in reaction to increased government scrutiny as a result of the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing and disrupted plots, improvements in the economy and the continued U.S. standing as the pre-eminent world power.”

“Proposed imposition of firearms restrictions and weapons bans likely would attract new members into the ranks of right-wing extremist groups as well as potentially spur some of them to begin planning and training for violence against the government,” the report continues. “The high volume of purchases and stockpiling of weapons and ammunition by right-wing extremists in anticipation of restrictions and bans in some parts of the country continue to be a primary concern to law enforcement.”

Most notable is the report’s focus on the impact of returning war veterans.

“Returning veterans possess combat skills and experience that are attractive to right-wing extremists,” it says. “DHS/I&A is concerned that right-wing extremists will attempt to recruit and radicalize veterans in order to boost their violent capacities.”

The report cites the April 4 shooting deaths of three police officers in Pittsburgh as an example of what may be coming, claiming the alleged gunman holds a racist ideology and believes in anti-government conspiracy theories about gun confiscations, citizen detention camps and “a Jewish-controlled ‘one-world government.’”

It also suggests the election of an African-American president and the prospect of his policy changes “are proving to be a driving force for right-wing extremist recruitment and radicalization.”

The report also mentions “‘end times’ prophecies could motivate extremist individuals and groups to stockpile food, ammunition and weapons. These teachings also have been linked with the radicalization of domestic extremist individuals and groups in the past, such as the violent Christian Identity organizations and extremist members of the militia movement.”

“DHS/I&A assesses that right-wing extremist groups’ frustration over a perceived lack of government action on illegal immigration has the potential to incite individuals or small groups toward violence,” the report continues.

The report states the DHS will be working with state and local partners over the next several months to determine the levels of right-wing extremist activity in the U.S.

Last month, the chief of the Missouri highway patrol blasted a report issued by the Missouri Information Analysis Center that linked conservative groups to domestic terrorism, assuring that such reports no longer will be issued. The report had been compiled with the assistance of DHS.

The report warned law enforcement agencies to watch for suspicious individuals who may have bumper stickers for third-party political candidates such as Ron Paul, Bob Barr and Chuck Baldwin.

It further warned law enforcement to watch out for individuals with “radical” ideologies based on Christian views, such as opposing illegal immigration, abortion and federal taxes.

Chief James Keathley of the Missouri State Patrol issued a statement that the release of the report, which outraged conservatives nationwide, prompted him to “take a hard look” at the procedures through which the report was released by the MIAC.

“My review of the procedures used by the MIAC in the three years since its inception indicates that the mechanism in place for oversight of reports needs improvement,” he wrote. “Until two weeks ago, the process for release of reports from the MIAC to law enforcement officers around the state required no review by leaders of the Missouri State Highway Patrol or the Department of Public Safety.”

“For that reason, I have ordered the MIAC to permanently cease distribution of the militia report,” he said. “Further, I am creating a new process for oversight of reports drafted by the MIAC that will require leaders of the Missouri State Highway Patrol and the Department of Public Safety to review the content of these reports before they are shared with law enforcement. My office will also undertake a review of the origin of the report by MIAC.”





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http://www.wnd.com/2009/04/94803/

G.

llotter
07-08-2012, 12:12 PM
I see a lot of words but I don't see much violence by the Right in your response. Labeling something as 'hate' is merely a modern method the Left uses to demonize and censor the opposition.

And, have you noticed that all that Leftist violence is directed against their fellow citizens and their private property almost as though they were a psrtner of our government. Little wonder then that such violence is seldom prosecuted.

Soflasnapper
07-08-2012, 12:46 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Oklahoma City
By: Andrew Gumbel.

A full expose' with complete documentation providing the clearest picture so far, of how and why all of the previous warnings of the coming, tragic Oklahoma City bombing by radical, RW government haters, could have been, but wasn't prevented, and how Republican policies were linked to the eventual, horrendous tragedy.

G. </div></div>

Any book that accepts the official story of the OKC bombing is missing the truth, in my view. (Not having read this book or its reviews, I do not judge this book, per se.)

Even if the bomb as described was the instrument used, McVeigh couldn't have done that mixing of the ANFO by himself or with whomever is admitted to be his co-conspirator.

Worse, the supposed ANFO bomb could not have possibly done the damage that was there. This was implicitly admitted as they had to make the amount of material in the bomb far larger than originally claimed to be slightly credible (and that still failed).

Down the memory hole goes the live television reporting of the day that multiple other bombs were found in the buildings and defused before they could be activated. (Although those live reports live on from internet copies.)

Why? Because it didn't fit with the semi-lone bomber theory driving the bomb into the proximity of the building. There was no way he could have gotten, let alone secreted, multiple bombs into that secure federal building.

It was an earlier example of the inside job, and also the early example of how to deal with an inconvenient bit of evidence (the condition of the building). It was swiftly razed to the ground and all the evidence it could provide was destroyed. Iirc, it was the same firm used to do the same thing at the WTC site.

In typical Hegelian fashion, that tragedy was immediately used to try to put through the same kinds of new incursions on civil rights that were eventually passed in the Patriot Act. At the time, the GOP balked, thinking it too intrusive (which I applaud, frankly).

There was a fallback story that wasn't used, concerning McVeigh's frequenting Elohim City, the Aryan Nation compound if I remember that correctly. In any case, alleged and probably real right wing extremists. This connection was not used, as head of security at Elohim City was one Mr. Strassmeier, a German intel asset turned FBI asset, and so, maybe too obvious.

Particularly since the FBI had an informant in Elohim City who became Strassmeier's mistress, who had reported hearing Strassmeier and others planning this operation.

Gayle in MD
07-09-2012, 07:03 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any book that accepts the official story of the OKC bombing is missing the truth, in my view. </div></div>

It doesn't. Just the opposite.

Soflasnapper
07-09-2012, 09:42 AM
There may be many ways to disagree with the false official story.

The way I suggest is most accurate is to focus on the evidence of insider government factions involved, which wouldn't be much of a partisan issue or any 'official' program.

See the original WTC attack of '93, and the FBI hiring an agent provocateur to suggest the bombing to the CIA asset Sheik Rahman, supplying the bomb (supposed to be a dud), and then their attempt to make their own guy the patsy. Except he taped his conversations with his FBI handlers.

Gayle in MD
07-09-2012, 09:55 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There may be many ways to disagree with the false official story.

The way I suggest is most accurate is to focus on the evidence of insider government factions involved, which wouldn't be much of a partisan issue or any 'official' program.

See the original WTC attack of '93, and the FBI hiring an agent provocateur to suggest the bombing to the CIA asset Sheik Rahman, supplying the bomb (supposed to be a dud), and then their attempt to make their own guy the patsy. Except he taped his conversations with his FBI handlers. </div></div>

<span style="color: #990000">While I haven't read the book, just heard him interviewed this weekend on C-Span books, his investigation goes very deep, even into the construction failures, which I believe he said, had they spent the recommended additional one eighth of one percent of total cost on additional support between the floors, during the construction, it would never have been the disaster it ended up being.

Also, interviews with many others in a number of government agencies, formerly unreported information, declassified information, and how the fomerly unreported information, surrounding the tragedy, continues to be a threat today, including those who have never been charged, and are still out there.

While I don't consider myself to be your run of the mill, conspiracy theorist, I have never gotten over the sight of the way the floors in the WTC buildings, pancaked, as buildings do when there are other bombs involved, within the buildings, as we see in intentional demolition films. This, too, is included to some degree, in the book, but of course, I do not know yet to what degree that subject is covered.

G. </span>