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View Full Version : Wealthy Fleeing MD!!!



Sev
07-09-2012, 01:53 PM
Of course they would say there is no evidence. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

<span style="color: #000000">
http://www.cnbc.com/id/48120446
<span style='font-size: 23pt'>In Maryland, Higher Taxes Chase Out Rich: Study</span>

A new report says wealthy Maryland residents may be moving out due to recent tax hikes – a finding that is sure to escalate the battle over taxing the American rich.

The study, by the anti-tax group Change Maryland, says that a net 31,000 residents left the state between 2007 and 2010, the tenure of a "millionaire's tax" pushed through by Gov. Martin O'Malley. The tax, which expired in 2010, in imposed a rate of 6.25 percent on incomes of more than $1 million a year.

The Change Maryland study found that the tax cost Maryland $1.7 billion in lost tax revenues. A county-by-county analysis by Change Maryland also found that the state’s wealthiest counties also had some of the largest population outflows.


In total, Maryland has added 24 new taxes or fees in recent years, Change Maryland says. Florida, which has no income-tax, has been a large recipient of Maryland's exiled wealthy.

“Maryland has reached the point of diminishing returns. We're taxing people too much and people are voting with their feet," said Change Maryland Chairman Larry Hogan. “Until we change our focus from tax increases to increasing the tax base, more people are simply going to leave, leading to a downward spiral of raising revenues on fewer citizens."

The finding adds to the renewed debate over raising taxes on the wealthy. In New Jersey, Gov. Chris Christie recently vetoed a millionaire's tax passed by his legislature, while California and other state governments are also considering higher taxes on high earners to fix budget problems. President Obama is expected today to ask Congress to extend tax cuts for those making $250,000 or more – effectively increasing taxes for the higher earners.

Many contend that higher taxes drive out the highly mobile rich, who can simply move to a lower-tax state or even lower-tax country. Recent data shows that a record 1,800 Americans renounces their citizenship last year.

Some argue, however, that there is little real evidence that higher state taxes drive out large numbers of high earners. Neil Bergsman, director of the Maryland Budget and Tax Policy Institute, said while a number of people left the state between 2007 and 2010, others moved in. The net loss, he said, is “very small,” he said.

What’s more, he points out that the wealthy usually move because of a job change, life change or retirement rather than taxes.

“There is no evidence that tax structures are a significant determinant in their location choices,” Bergsman said.

What’s more, he said, Maryland is still minting high-earners and has among the highest incomes and highest concentration of millionaires in the country.

Other studies in New Jersey, Connecticut and Rhode Island have also failed to offer proof that taxes are the main driver of out-migration by the top earners. (See here and here). In some states, weather is a bigger driver of out-migration by the wealthy than taxes.

Still, with top earners paying the largest share of taxes in many high-income states, many politicians don't want to take the risk of raising tax rates further.</span>

Soflasnapper
07-09-2012, 07:42 PM
President Obama is expected today to ask Congress to extend tax cuts for those making $250,000 or more [...]

LOL! SUUUUUURE he is! Some source you got there!

(Nah, everyone makes mistakes, and they caught it themselves later, noting their error.)

Really, the rebuttal to these claims which are even stated weakly ('may'? implying 'may not'?) are in the article itself.

MD is hardly the only state raising taxes, and looking at higher tax states like NJ, NY, etc., does not support this theory.

LWW
07-10-2012, 04:36 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
MD is hardly the only state raising taxes, and looking at higher tax states like NJ, NY, etc., does not support this theory.
</div></div>

So your position is that just because te facts prove it desn't prove a thing?

Qtec
07-10-2012, 05:02 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some argue, however, that there is <span style='font-size: 26pt'>little real evidence </span>that higher state taxes drive out large numbers of high earners. </div></div>

Q........ /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/whistle.gif

Sev
07-10-2012, 05:29 AM
Net loss from NYC has been over 1,000,000 individuals when both exiting and new arrivals have been tallied.
Over 3 million left the city.

Gayle in MD
07-10-2012, 06:04 AM
LMAO! Another funny post. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Larry Hogan? Change Maryland? BWA HA HA HA....another radical RW Repiglican jerk, who wants to live in heaven on the cheap!

There are more millionaires moving into Maryland, than moving out. We've never had any shortage of millionaires in Maryland, trust me.

If you want to live in heaven, you have to pay more.

This is the sailboat capital of the world. Any idea how many millions are collected in this state on expensive shoreline property, every year? Sailboaters from all over the world live their work lives elsewhere while dreaming of retiring in Maryland, right here on the largest, most beautiful fresh water estuary in the world.

Don't you worry about Maryland...she's doing just fine, always has, always will.
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif
G.
Living in Maryland, and lovin' it!

LWW
07-10-2012, 06:50 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some argue, however, that there is <span style='font-size: 26pt'>little real evidence </span>that higher state taxes drive out large numbers of high earners. </div></div>

Q........ /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/whistle.gif </div></div>

And they argue it from a position of ignorance.

And, FWIW, the ignoramus arguing that point in the article is also a state appointed ignoramus whose job is to makeup jibba jabba to defefend moonbat crazy leftist tax policy.

Sev
07-10-2012, 07:08 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LMAO!

If you want to live in heaven, you have to pay more.

</div></div>

What people consider heavenly living is purely subjective to the individual.

High cost is often not a positive part of the equation but a detriment.

The Catskills and the Adirondacks are far more beautiful than any portion of Maryland could hope to ever be.
The cost of residing in any area of that state remove it from being heavenly.

Gayle in MD
07-10-2012, 07:19 AM
LOL...Yeah, that's why so many milliionaires choose to live in Maryland.

You're funny.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

LWW
07-10-2012, 07:46 AM
Be sir Sev ... Baltimore is the the 13,002nd best city in America to live in.

<span style='font-size: 26pt'>WATCH OUT DETROIT!</span>

Also i've heard it's the easiest place to score heroin.

Gayle in MD
07-10-2012, 10:13 AM
One of the top fifteen happiest Seaside Towns in the whole country is in Maryland!

http://www.wtop.com/93/2863845/1-Md-town-makes-Happiest-Seaside-Towns-list


The largest fresh water estuary in the country is in Maryland, the beautiful Chesapeake Bay.

The best fishing and crabbing, and the tastiest clams and oysters in the whole country? Maryland. Ever had an oyster from the eastern shore of Maryland?

Sailing Capital of the world? Maryland.

Maryland is a great place to live, work and raise a family. Often called "America in Miniature", it has beautiful Mountains, clean, sandy beaches along the Atlantic, the Chesapeake Bay, World Famous Blue Claw Crabs and over 4000 miles of tidal shoreline!



BTW, I don't live near Baltimore. I am south of Annapolis, which is one of the most beautiful, quaint and most historic cities in the country.

I live right off the West River, in Southern Maryland, not Baltimore, although the harbor front in Baltimore is quite beautiful, where one can find some of the very best accomodations and restaurants in the country, very up-scale, and very expensive.

You can have the Catskills, and the Adirondacks, too, far too cold for me! Although I've seen them, and they are quite b beautiful, I wouldn't want to live there.

I'm no mountain woman, LOL. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

I spend a week every year in the Shenandoah Mountains, when they are gorgeous with the colors of autumn and one long weekend at Deep Creek, that's enough mountain life for me.

Maryland has it all, from the seashore, to the mountains, from where I live, it's all just a nice Sunday drive away.

G.

Soflasnapper
07-10-2012, 10:18 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Net loss from NYC has been over 1,000,000 individuals when both exiting and new arrivals have been tallied.
Over 3 million left the city. </div></div>

Geeze, we just went over that. It's not true, unless by 'left the city' you mean moving from Manhattan to the other boroughs (which are still 'in the city.')

Up the last two censuses, as I recall.

LWW
07-10-2012, 10:41 AM
Please analyze the stats deeper than what fits the agenda.

Soflasnapper
07-11-2012, 09:39 AM
I don't know how to evaluate the numbers.

NYC in its entirety grew by some low 2% number over 10 years, from census to census, most recently.

Is that too low for typical population growth (from new births), so an indicator of MILLIONS of people leaving?

I have no idea, but I would doubt it.

I suspect NYC residents have such a high cost of living that they have fewer children than average, and certainly, do not have children at a replacement level of fecundity (two children per married couple).

So, it becomes a question of deaths vs. births, and then, see if you can get a million or millions of people having fled those environs, on a NET basis, and still get 2+% growth in a decade.

I doubt it, but would be open to entertain an argument to the contrary.

LWW
07-11-2012, 03:29 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know how to evaluate the numbers.

</div></div>

That I would agree with.

Let me help you ... NYC is up about 4.5% since 1950, NY state a little more, the USA over 100%.

This in spite of NC being the world's largest immigrnt magnet.

There is no other conclusion possible other than that NYC has had it's non immigrant population flee in enrmouse numbers.

From 1945 to 1994 NYC had all demokrook mayrs other than a single independent.

Since 1994 the city has miraculousy rebounded

The hstory of Detroit is even worse ... and for the same reasons.

Soflasnapper
07-11-2012, 04:50 PM
NYC is a very expensive place to live, quite apart from the taxation.

I guess you claim there is no effect to that high cost of living, that might cause people to leave. Or not come there in the first place (reducing the immigrant inflow).

As you say, there was indeed a longish period where NYC did lose population, possibly (and I've seen the argument) over the crime rate, among other things.

It's been GAINING population for 20 years, and you have to show how you get MILLIONS LEAVING (for the first point), EXPLICITLY OVER TAXES (for the second point), and still have population growth, even in the face of residents' dying every day.

Nobody has shown that, so good luck. Even the claim starting this thread about MD said 'may,' not definitely, and cited the various studies that show similar claims about other areas aren't proven to be the case anywhere else.

LWW
07-11-2012, 05:32 PM
Name for me one person who said "I WANT TO MOVE TO NYC BECAUSE THE TAXES ARE REALLY HIGH THERE!"

Qtec
07-11-2012, 11:40 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A number of studies in the economic literature explore the impact of taxes on the migration behavior of households in the United States. <u>What these papers have generally shown is that taxes have little impact on cross-state migration. Instead, the migration impacts of unemployment are much greater.</u> Overall, the results suggest that taxes do not cause out-migration, but they do influence the choice of destination for some migrating households, such as retirees. </div></div>

link (http://reason.com/archives/2011/04/29/the-truth-about-taxes-and-the)


Q

http://media.reason.com/mc/jtaylor/verorich1.jpg

Soflasnapper
07-12-2012, 10:19 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Name for me one person who said "I WANT TO MOVE TO NYC BECAUSE THE TAXES ARE REALLY HIGH THERE!" </div></div>

An off-topic non sequitur comment, about 180 degrees from what is supposed to be shown by these claims.