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Sev
07-14-2012, 08:08 AM
You know. If the government run model of our eductional system is any indication of what the government run model of healthcare is going to be. We sure have a lot to look forward to in the near future.

Of course the enrollment of citizens is going to far exceed the increase of the medical work force. If indeed there is any net increase in the medical field in the near future.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...googlenews_wsj
<span style="color: #000000">
<span style='font-size: 23pt'>America Has Too Many Teachers</span>

By ANDREW J. COULSON

President Obama said last month that America can educate its way to prosperity if Congress sends money to states to prevent public school layoffs and "rehire even more teachers." Mitt Romney was having none of it, invoking "the message of Wisconsin" and arguing that the solution to our economic woes is to cut the size of government and shift resources to the private sector. Mr. Romney later stated that he wasn't calling for a reduction in the teacher force—but perhaps there would be some wisdom in doing just that.

Cato Institute scholar Andrew Coulson on how public school employment has soared over the past 40 years even as student enrollment has flat-lined.

Since 1970, the public school workforce has roughly doubled—to 6.4 million from 3.3 million—and two-thirds of those new hires are teachers or teachers' aides. Over the same period, enrollment rose by a tepid 8.5%. Employment has thus grown 11 times faster than enrollment. If we returned to the student-to-staff ratio of 1970, American taxpayers would save about $210 billion annually in personnel costs.

Or would they? Stanford economist Eric Hanushek has shown that better-educated students contribute substantially to economic growth. If U.S. students could catch up to the mathematics performance of their Canadian counterparts, he has found, it would add roughly $70 trillion to the U.S. economy over the next 80 years. So if the additional three million public-school employees we've hired have helped students learn, the nation may be better off economically.
<span style="color: #CC0000"><span style='font-size: 17pt'>
To find out if that's true, we can look at the "long-term trends" of 17-year-olds on the federal National Assessment of Educational Progress. These tests, first administered four decades ago, show stagnation in reading and math and a decline in science. Scores for black and Hispanic students have improved somewhat, but the scores of white students (still the majority) are flat overall, and large demographic gaps persist. Graduation rates have also stagnated or fallen. So a doubling in staff size and more than a doubling in cost have done little to improve academic outcomes.</span>
</span>
Nor can the explosive growth in public-school hiring be attributed to federal spending on special education. According to the latest Census Bureau data, special ed teachers make up barely 5% of the K-12 work force.

<span style="color: #CC0000"><span style='font-size: 17pt'>The implication of these facts is clear: America's public schools have warehoused three million people in jobs that do little to improve student achievement—people who would be working productively in the private sector if that extra $210 billion were not taxed out of the economy each year.
</span></span>
We have already tried President Obama's education solution over a time period and on a scale that he could not hope to replicate today. And it has proven an expensive and tragic failure.

To avoid Greece's fate we must create new, productive private-sector jobs to replace our unproductive government ones. Even as a tiny, mostly nonprofit niche, American private education is substantially more efficient than its public sector, producing higher graduation rates and similar or better student achievement at roughly a third lower cost than public schools (even after controlling for differences in student and family characteristics).

By making it easier for families to access independent schools, we can do what the president's policies cannot: drive prosperity through educational improvement. More than 20 private-school choice programs already exist around the nation. Last month, New Hampshire legislators voted to override their governor's veto and enact tax credits for businesses that donate to K-12 scholarship organizations. Mr. Romney has supported such state programs. President Obama opposes them.

While America may have too many teachers, the greater problem is that our state schools have squandered their talents on a mass scale. The good news is that a solution is taking root in many states.

Mr. Coulson directs the Cato Institute's Center for Educational Freedom and is author of "Market Education: The Unknown History" (Transaction, 1999). </span>

DiabloViejo
07-14-2012, 10:59 AM
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/523917_442813059082496_1192494629_n.jpg

Soflasnapper
07-14-2012, 11:20 AM
So a doubling in staff size and more than a doubling in cost have done little to improve academic outcomes.

Not sure there has been a doubling of costs (in inflation-adjusted terms).

And there has been substantial progress, which is generally unreported, as lack of progress is instead asserted.

Almost no one I know ever reports on this fact, except for Bob Somerby at his DailyHowler site.

Sev
07-14-2012, 04:03 PM
Yah.
Its improved so much that 75% of teenagers cant even qualify for the military due to a lack of proper education, criminal records and dropping out.
Of which in the later 2 we find the biggest offenders being blacks and Hispanics.

eg8r
07-14-2012, 04:49 PM
What fact? Give examples of progress in meaningful areas.

eg8r

eg8r
07-14-2012, 04:51 PM
Diablow is the perfect proof of the dumbing down of America. He only knows cartoons. Even then he can't quite figure what anyone was ever talking about.

eg8r

Soflasnapper
07-14-2012, 05:14 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yah.
Its improved so much that 75% of teenagers cant even qualify for the military due to a lack of proper education, criminal records and dropping out.
Of which in the later 2 we find the biggest offenders being blacks and Hispanics. </div></div>

Here, from governmental sources. (http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/usmilitary/a/unabletoserve.htm)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Obesity and Other Health Problems Wash Many Out

A full 27 percent of young Americans are simply too overweight to join the military, says Mission: Readiness. "Many are turned away by recruiters and others never try to join. Of those who attempt to join, however, roughly 15,000 young potential recruits fail their entrance physicals every year because they are too heavy."

Nearly 32 percent have other disqualifying health problems, including asthma, eyesight or hearing problems, mental health issues, or recent treatment for Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder.

Due to all of the above and other assorted problems, only about two out of 10 American young people are fully eligible to join the military without special waivers, according to the report.</div></div>

So, of the 75% figure you cite, about 78.7% of that 75% (59%) are ineligible for no reason you mention at all, but obesity and health problems?

Sure, that proves your point (not). (The study figures are from before 2009, but updated that year.)

DiabloViejo
07-14-2012, 05:19 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Diablow is the perfect proof of the dumbing down of America. He only knows cartoons. Even then he can't quite figure what anyone was ever talking about.

eg8r </div></div>

The name is Diablo Viejo (Old Devil, in Spanish).

I suspect that your compulsive use of Diablow is indicative of some sort of homo-erotic inclination not consciously expressed in overt action. This suggests that you may harbor a suppressed or unrecognized inclination or potential for interest in homosexual relations, which you have not yet explored, and may never, in fact, explore. Perhaps you should consult with a competent psychotherapist.

Oh! And here's a funny pic for you!:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7070/6990766675_068afaa7ac.jpg

Soflasnapper
07-14-2012, 05:24 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Our high school students have always scored at or near the bottom, even as our college and university system was, and is, the best in the world. In a 1965 mathematics assessment, 18 years prior to “A Nation at Risk,” the United States placed last among all nations tested. The other nations achieved mean scores from 36.4 to 21.6. The U.S. score: 13.8.</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[W]e do not "score poorly" in PISA tests relative to other countries. In reading, despite certain handicaps noted below, we score better than a number of European counties, including Germany, Sweden, the UK, France and Denmark. The U.S. scores in science are comparable in international standing to the reading scores -- with some notable exceptions, including considerably higher science scores in the UK -- while we really do fall down in math. That perhaps was the main filter through which Professor Drew was looking at the data to draw his misleading overall conclusion.

Of course, the common denominator is that the U.S. is the most unequal of all the major counties, with the highest poverty. When you try to correct for that difference -- which, after all, is important for determining the extent to which the education system is fundamentally flawed across-the-board (as, for example, with blaming lazy teachers and their powerful union bosses), or is a product of societal differences that require different corrective approaches -- U.S. education overall shows up quite well, even at the top of the scale by some ways of looking at the dtata. Kids in the suburbs are getting an education equal to that of any country in the world.

The main qualifier is that for some reason, American kids in general are doing relatively poorly in math compared to how they stand reading and science. We should try to figure out why -- is it the way math is taught, or is there some cultural issue? -- and fix that. Of course, math teachers everywhere are trying to figure that out, as they have been for a long, long time. Their infernal unions, recognizing that their members have as keen an interest in better teaching as in getting rich, have zero interest in preventing them from adopting better approaches to math education. Then again, logic has not been a strong suit of the education reform industry, whether of the Democratic (Obama, Duncan, Gates) or Republican varieties.

Bottom line: American education has not deteriorated -- the NAEP historical data reinforces the international data on that</div></div>

The 2009 PISA results:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/12/07/education/07education_graph/07education_graph-popup.jpg

hondo
07-14-2012, 10:32 PM
SSDD from the slobbering wingnuts:

Bad, overpaid teachers
Bust the unions
Oust Obama
Lousy socialists
Lousy commies
Lousy fascists
Enablers
Dumb blacks
Lousy fags
Lousy Mexicans
Overturn healthcare
Privatize schools
Throw out Social Security and make people invest in stocks
Stop all welfare
Stop abortions
Praise war as long as Republicans start it
Global warming is a myth
Spread myth that Dems will take away your guns
Lie, spin, hate, twist
Protect the rich

All in the name of JEEEESUS!

Jesus doesn't know you folks, believe me.

The new Republican party has become a party of bigotry, hate, ignorance filled with con men suckering an ignorant public.

The triumph over humanity is pretty much here.
You guys love Big Brother. The dumbing down of America continues.

LWW
07-15-2012, 04:49 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And there has been substantial progress, which is generally unreported ... </div></div>

Here is your opportunity to demonstrate this progress ... Yet you failed. Miserably.

LWW
07-15-2012, 04:50 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Diablow is the perfect proof of the dumbing down of America. He only knows cartoons. Even then he can't quite figure what anyone was ever talking about.

eg8r </div></div>

Hanging with snoopy and aitch does that.

LWW
07-15-2012, 04:55 AM
That you were a tenured teacher is the most damnining indictment f the system that I can think of.

Any system that allows admitted former tenants of the penal system, admitted drug addicts, admitted alcoholics, admitted employers of illegals and then defends them is inherently flawed.

Sev
07-15-2012, 08:59 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SSDD from the slobbering wingnuts:

Bad, overpaid teachers
Bust the unions
Oust Obama
Lousy socialists
Lousy commies
Lousy fascists
Enablers
Dumb blacks
Lousy fags
Lousy Mexicans
Overturn healthcare
Privatize schools
Throw out Social Security and make people invest in stocks
Stop all welfare
Stop abortions
Praise war as long as Republicans start it
Global warming is a myth
Spread myth that Dems will take away your guns
Lie, spin, hate, twist
Protect the rich

All in the name of JEEEESUS!

Jesus doesn't know you folks, believe me.

The new Republican party has become a party of bigotry, hate, ignorance filled with con men suckering an ignorant public.

The triumph over humanity is pretty much here.
You guys love Big Brother. The dumbing down of America continues. </div></div>

Jesus?

Wasnt he some kid born in a stall?

Sev
07-15-2012, 09:09 AM
http://www.cfr.org/united-states/us-education-reform-national-security/p27618
<span style="color: #000000"><span style='font-size: 23pt'>U.S. Education Reform and National Security</span>

Overview

The United States' failure to educate its students leaves them unprepared to compete and threatens the country's ability to thrive in a global economy and maintain its leadership role, finds a new Council on Foreign Relations (CFR)–sponsored Independent Task Force report on U.S. Education Reform and National Security.

"Educational failure puts the United States' future economic prosperity, global position, and physical safety at risk," warns the Task Force, chaired by Joel I. Klein, former head of New York City public schools, and Condoleezza Rice, former U.S. secretary of state. The country "will not be able to keep pace—much less lead—globally unless it moves to fix the problems it has allowed to fester for too long," argues the Task Force.

The report notes that while the United States invests more in K-12 public education than many other developed countries, its students are ill prepared to compete with their global peers. According to the results of the 2009 Program for International Student Assessment (PISA), an international assessment that measures the performance of 15-year-olds in reading, mathematics, and science every three years, U.S. students rank fourteenth in reading, twenty-fifth in math, and seventeenth in science compared to students in other industrialized countries.

Though there are many successful individual schools and promising reform efforts, the national statistics on educational outcomes are disheartening:

More than 25 percent of students fail to graduate from high school in four years; for African-American and Hispanic students, this number is approaching 40 percent.
In civics, only a quarter of U.S. students are proficient or better on the National Assessment of Educational Progress.
Although the United States is a nation of immigrants, roughly eight in ten Americans speak only English and a decreasing number of schools are teaching foreign languages.
A recent report by ACT, the not-for-profit testing organization, found that only 22 percent of U.S. high school students met "college ready" standards in all of their core subjects; these figures are even lower for African-American and Hispanic students.
The College Board reported that even among college-bound seniors, only 43 percent met college-ready standards, meaning that more college students need to take remedial courses.

The lack of preparedness poses threats on five national security fronts: economic growth and competitiveness, physical safety, intellectual property, U.S. global awareness, and U.S. unity and cohesion, says the report. Too many young people are not employable in an increasingly high-skilled and global economy, and too many are not qualified to join the military because they are physically unfit, have criminal records, or have an inadequate level of education.

"Human capital will determine power in the current century, and the failure to produce that capital will undermine America's security," the report states. "Large, undereducated swaths of the population damage the ability of the United States to physically defend itself, protect its secure information, conduct diplomacy, and grow its economy."

The Task Force proposes three overarching policy recommendations:

Implement educational expectations and assessments in subjects vital to protecting national security. "With the support of the federal government and industry partners, states should expand the Common Core State Standards, ensuring that students are mastering the skills and knowledge necessary to safeguard the country's national security."
Make structural changes to provide students with good choices. "Enhanced choice and competition, in an environment of equitable resource allocation, will fuel the innovation necessary to transform results."
Launch a "national security readiness audit" to hold schools and policymakers accountable for results and to raise public awareness. "There should be a coordinated, national effort to assess whether students are learning the skills and knowledge necessary to safeguard America's future security and prosperity. The results should be publicized to engage the American people in addressing problems and building on successes."

The Task Force includes thirty-one prominent education experts, national security authorities, and corporate leaders who reached consensus on a set of contentious issues. The report also includes a number of additional and dissenting views by Task Force members. The Task Force is directed by Julia Levy, an entrepreneur and former director of communications for the New York City Department of Education.

The Task Force believes that its message and recommendations "can reshape education in the United States and put this country on track to be an educational, economic, military, and diplomatic global leader."</span>

hondo
07-15-2012, 10:40 AM
Simply take the descriptions that fit you. Sorry. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Sev
07-15-2012, 11:04 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Simply take the descriptions that fit you. Sorry. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif </div></div>

Heh heh heh!!

Soflasnapper
07-15-2012, 12:52 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And there has been substantial progress, which is generally unreported ... </div></div>

Here is your opportunity to demonstrate this progress ... Yet you failed. Miserably. </div></div>

If you'd like to see the website and all its data, sliced anyway you'd like, see here. (NAEP Data Explorer.net)

However, there was evidence of substantial improvement in my post. You just didn't notice it? So surprising!

eg8r
07-15-2012, 04:41 PM
Where is the proof of the substantial improvement? All you did in this post was prove Sev correct. What he said is that we have doubled the teachers and aides while the student pop grew at a slower 8% and the students are still doing poorly.

Throwing money at education does not work and you post proves it.

eg8r

eg8r
07-15-2012, 04:43 PM
The name is diablow and you are proof of the dumbing down of America. Keep on cartoon boy.

eg8r

Soflasnapper
07-15-2012, 05:40 PM
Look at the 1st part, and then the table of results, think a bit, and squint hard, if it isn't clear.

Then get back to me.

hondo
07-15-2012, 06:05 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The name is diablow and you are proof of the dumbing down of America. Keep on cartoon boy.

eg8r </div></div>

More personal insults! What a vile human being you have turned out to be. Sucking up all this right wing crap poisons people.
I'll pray for you, Eg.

LWW
07-15-2012, 07:13 PM
I had hoped for a link that actually worked.

Sev
07-16-2012, 01:55 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Where is the proof of the substantial improvement? All you did in this post was prove Sev correct. What he said is that we have doubled the teachers and aides while the student pop grew at a slower 8% and the students are still doing poorly.

Throwing money at education does not work and you post proves it.

eg8r </div></div>

Education has flat lined.
The Dept of Ed is worthless and needs to be dissolved. Education needs to be returned to the states. The federal governments efforts have been an epic fail.

hondo
07-16-2012, 04:09 PM
Sev, the states did control education til Bush and his NCLB.
Once that crap is passe, it will return to the states.
The Feds handle special ed, little else.
Most libs understand this. Most right wingers seem clueless about public ed and simply attack without a clue what they are talking about.

Sev
07-16-2012, 04:20 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sev, the states did control education til Bush and his NCLB.
Once that crap is passe, it will return to the states.
The Feds handle special ed, little else.
Most libs understand this. Most right wingers seem clueless about public ed and simply attack without a clue what they are talking about. </div></div>

The States lost control when the Department of Education was formed.

JustinH
07-16-2012, 04:34 PM
Any opinion of the level of education that is based on Standardized testing is in-accurate and lazy. Testing does not show how educated an individual is, it shows how well they were taught the answers to that test.

Our nations education is in decline precisely due to the weeks and months out of every school year that our students are forced to learn the language and techniques necessary to score high on the tests that the schools require them to score high on, so that they schools can be funded.

It's a losing cycle. Education can only be measured based on the productivity of the students leaving those places of education. (Not graduating necessarily.)

The real question is, how is that productivity to be measured? Monetarily? Career? Successful care of family? Happiness?

Or is it just the students ability to acquire what they feel is important? There is no one program/person that can be blamed. The student MUST be held accountable at some point. The vast majority of public schools give the students an opportunity to learn. The students just don't take it.

LWW
07-16-2012, 05:11 PM
A new alias appears ...

Soflasnapper
07-16-2012, 05:28 PM
I had hoped for a link that actually worked.

You make a good point! I had hoped the same thing, frankly.

Here you go.

Here you go. (http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/about/naeptools.asp)

Use the first main button/link, called Data Explorer.

CAUTION: steep learning curve at first.

hondo
07-16-2012, 07:12 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sev, the states did control education til Bush and his NCLB.
Once that crap is passe, it will return to the states.
The Feds handle special ed, little else.
Most libs understand this. Most right wingers seem clueless about public ed and simply attack without a clue what they are talking about. </div></div>

The States lost control when the Department of Education was formed. </div></div>

Not really.The biggest interference has come from Bush's NCLB.

hondo
07-16-2012, 07:18 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JustinH</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any opinion of the level of education that is based on Standardized testing is in-accurate and lazy. Testing does not show how educated an individual is, it shows how well they were taught the answers to that test.

Our nations education is in decline precisely due to the weeks and months out of every school year that our students are forced to learn the language and techniques necessary to score high on the tests that the schools require them to score high on, so that they schools can be funded.

It's a losing cycle. Education can only be measured based on the productivity of the students leaving those places of education. (Not graduating necessarily.)

The real question is, how is that productivity to be measured? Monetarily? Career? Successful care of family? Happiness?

Or is it just the students ability to acquire what they feel is important? There is no one program/person that can be blamed. The student MUST be held accountable at some point. The vast majority of public schools give the students an opportunity to learn. The students just don't take it.
</div></div>

An excellent post. Dead on. Good luck getting the wingnuts to grasp what you are saying.
There are certain qualifications to be a right winger these days;
Must bash public ed.
Must bash unions.
Must bash Manmade global warming.
Must bash Social Security.
Must bash anything Obama.
Must bash arts, intellect, higher ed.
Etc., etc.,etc.

hondo
07-16-2012, 07:20 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A new alias appears ... </div></div>

And thus it starts.
Welcome to the wacky, twisted, dis-honest world that larry wilson lives in.

Sev
07-16-2012, 09:07 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sev, the states did control education til Bush and his NCLB.
Once that crap is passe, it will return to the states.
The Feds handle special ed, little else.
Most libs understand this. Most right wingers seem clueless about public ed and simply attack without a clue what they are talking about. </div></div>

The States lost control when the Department of Education was formed. </div></div>

Not really.The biggest interference has come from Bush's NCLB. </div></div>

Coercion and unfunded mandates started long before the Bush administration.

hondo
07-16-2012, 09:11 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sev</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sev, the states did control education til Bush and his NCLB.
Once that crap is passe, it will return to the states.
The Feds handle special ed, little else.
Most libs understand this. Most right wingers seem clueless about public ed and simply attack without a clue what they are talking about. </div></div>

The States lost control when the Department of Education was formed. </div></div>

Not really.The biggest interference has come from Bush's NCLB. </div></div>

Coercion and unfunded mandates started long before the Bush administration.

</div></div>

Explain.Examples? I didn't see it. I taught from 1977 til 2008.
Until NCLB, the Feds only controlled Special Ed and school lunch.
Each state mandated requirements for graduation, teacher pay, teacher ed requirements, partial control of texts.
County controlled calender, curriculum, hiring and firing, partial pay, textbook selection, administration, evaluation of teachers.

LWW
07-17-2012, 03:30 AM
So shoud the union protect a teacher who is a felon, a drug addict and an alcoholic?

hondo
07-17-2012, 07:11 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So shoud the union protect a teacher who is a felon, a drug addict and an alcoholic? </div></div>

LOL! I must really get to you. You certainly are filled with hate. Poor larry wilson in Dayton.

LWW
07-17-2012, 07:28 AM
Why don't you just answer the question?