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14 Ball
08-24-2012, 09:03 PM
I mistakingly posted this at the newbie forum the other day. (forgive me - I've been playing pool for forty years but I'm a newbie poster)..... Many years ago I read a column by Bob Meucci where he claimed that the center ball hit was a myth. He said that while pros will advise amateurs to use a center ball hit as much as possible, that in reality, pros deliberately put a tad bit of English on every shot that appears to the naked eye, to be struck in the center, and that a true center ball hit would produce something akin to a knuckelball, which would be uncontrollable. I agreed with him at the time, but I'm not so sure today. Anyhow, I'd like to read that article again but I can't find it. I've gone to Meucci's site - googled - done everything. Is there anyone out there who has read this article or knows where to find it?

Rich R (over at the newbie forum) replied: I didn't read that article but I think the key phrase is "as much as possible." A dead center hit on the cue ball is probably impossible and the pros may intentionally favor one side, or top to bottom, on purpose but then stay as close to center as possible. Frankly, I've seen a lot of pros play and it is amazing how much spin they can put on a ball while staying near the center of the cue ball. It is all in the stroke.
As for the knuckle ball effect goes, I would say that depends on how hard the cue ball was hit. With a firm hit, the cue ball will skid and if it hits the object ball before it starts to roll, that would be a stun shot and it is commonly used.
If you ever find a link to that article please post a link here. I would like to read it.

(14 ball writing once again)... Rich; as I said, I read that article many years ago and I still can't find it, but I found a post in another forum from 2005 from a guy who either read that column or was aware of Meucci's ideas and he called those ideas insane. He implied that Meucci convinced several pros that they should put a little English on all long shots, and that after trying this out, all the pros rejected this idea. So maybe that's why I can't find the article. Meucci is certainly not shy about publishing his ideas on the Internet. Maybe Meucci ended up rejecting his own idea. Maybe some pros showed him how well they hit the ball in the center. Nevertheless, I don't think he's totally wrong. I happen to think that on long shots using very, very slight English and very slightly throwing the ball in the pocket can be highly effective. Here's a link to that post:

newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.sport.billiard/2005-11/msg00766.html

SpiderMan
08-24-2012, 09:21 PM
14 Ball,

I would not be surprised to learn that Bob would make that claim. He has always been quite the salesman.

In the early 1970s, I was in college at Ole Miss, and Bob Meucci had his first shop on Getwell in Memphis. On the weekends, I'd hang out all night with my friends at the Golden Cue on Winchester Rd. Bob would come in late at night with his cues and start handing them out to players, talking about how much more spin they could get. It was, at the time, his niche. I believe this was when he was just getting his business off the ground, before he hired Mike Erwin.

Buddy Hall would come into the Golden Cue, and he shot with a Meucci. He was quite a flamboyant player himself back then - tall, thin, big reddish-blond afro, talked up a storm, played fast and loose, and almost never missed. It worked on me - when I bought my first cue, it was a Meucci. I paid $40 for it brand new, and I still have it. And like a lot of those Meucci's, it developed a slight warp in the forearm within the first year /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif.

SpiderMan

14 Ball
08-24-2012, 09:22 PM
I don't know. I'm a computer nitwit, but I thought when you type in a web address it's supposed to turn to blue and a line appears underneath for a one touch link. Maybe that only happens if you type www. first, but if you do that with this address you don't get sent there.

SpiderMan
08-24-2012, 09:34 PM
Sometimes that's true, like if you are typing emails in most tools, or a document in Microsoft Word. But it all depends on the environment/software.

To do a link here, you have to click on the little "chain" icon that you see at the upper left corner of the box you're composing your post in. You can't be using the "quick reply" option, though - it doesn't have the icon. You will then be prompted for the web address, and for an optional proxy name you can give to the link.

Like this: SpiderMan's VNEA Semifinal Match (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gu8VqlQKaBI)

SpiderMan

14 Ball
08-25-2012, 01:26 AM
Thanks Spiderman. Let's see if this works.

14 Ball
08-25-2012, 01:44 AM
Re: inside english (http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.sport.billiard/2005-11/msg00766.html).

Uhhh .... I'm a slow learner. Let's see if three's the charm

Bambu
08-25-2012, 09:20 AM
Assuming a player habitually strikes a quarter tip left or right of center, an opposite type of offset can help. But using inside english alone wont do the trick, that would only confuse a player more. Mainly because, inside english will never be consistently left or right. (It can be either.)

I have heard the argument that outside english can help pot balls because it cancels out throw. This at least has some sort of truth to it. But inside english does not cancel throw, and does not correct for striking off center. Not to discount cue ball control, but thats about all IE is gonna do for you.

14 Ball
08-25-2012, 10:47 AM
The (Re: inside English) in blue two posts up Is a link to the 2005 rec. sport. billiard. post I referred to way up on top. I finally did it right...........I know - by now you're all saying to yourselves, "Why doesn't he go back to the newbie forum?"

Jal
08-26-2012, 01:57 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 14 Ball</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> He said .....that a true center ball hit would produce something akin to a knuckelball, which would be uncontrollable. I agreed with him at the time, but I'm not so sure today.</div></div>
I think you should trust your current view on this, unless you happen to be playing with a cueball that has laced seams. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 14 Ball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... Frankly, I've seen a lot of pros play and it is amazing how much spin they can put on a ball while staying near the center of the cue ball. It is all in the stroke.</div></div>
All the cueball responds to is the tip offset and the cue's speed and mass. If you can get the cue up to their speed - and I don't think you're talking about exceptionally fast speeds here - there's no reason you/we can't produce the same spin.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 14 Ball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As for the knuckle ball effect goes, I would say that depends on how hard the cue ball was hit. With a firm hit, the cue ball will skid and if it hits the object ball before it starts to roll, that would be a stun shot and it is commonly used.</div></div>
By the usual definition, a stun shot is one where the cueball has essentially no topspin or backspin when it reaches the object ball. In-between stun and a fully rolling cueball, there's a continuum of topspin states which are neither stun nor natural roll. Maybe the "knuckle ball effect" he was referring to was actually the result of differing amounts of friction throw of the object ball. That does vary considerably as you go from stun to natural roll, particularly in the region of half-ball hits (30 deg. cuts).

Just discussing.

Jim

cushioncrawler
08-26-2012, 03:33 PM
On a 12' table i hav no trubble uzing outside english and inside english if at short range. Most of my shots are with red on The Spot, potting red in a top-pkt -- a standard situation where u kan soon learn to potred uzing every spin and skrew and pace kombo in the book. But in pool u dont hav this sort of fixed pozzy -- much more diffikult.

I uze backhandpivot and fronthandpivot and parallel offset and hoik and swoop. It aint diffikult when most of your shots are around The Spot. Elsewhere on the table, at different separations and different ranges it aint so eeezy.

On the other hand, on a 12' table we havta deal with the nap. U pool guys dont know nuthin till u havta learn to play with against and akross a nappy slippery kloth. Nosireee.

And i often throw the red in, ie with outside english, ie to negate any possible throw, ie due to an unwanted kick (talking about chalk-kicks here, and mini-kix).

And of course me and other players of English Billiards uze side more than all other cuesports put together, mainly for kontrolling the qball, mainly for changing the deflexion angle, mainly for scoring inoffs. Yessireeee.
mac.

BCA Master Instr
08-29-2012, 01:56 PM
I think most of the "Pro's" are talking about Vertical Center, not dead center.

bradb
08-31-2012, 06:17 PM
Greetings Mac.
I play on both shaved and napped cloth and the throw is still considerable, especially on ie, albeit the balls does bite in more on napped cloth. I find I have to allow for more throw on the snooker table for all spin shots and that goes for what ever direction I'm shooting as the lay of the cloth can effect the path.

One aspect of the snooker table is a bank shot on a snooker table is more accurate as the pool table rails tend to put a bit it of added spin on the ball as the it leaves the rail. A very noticeable demonstration of this is to try and execute a double rail shot to the side pocket. Its an easy shot on a snooker table but on a pool table the ball will angle back on the second bounce. Brad

cushioncrawler
08-31-2012, 09:21 PM
With a napped kloth (ie a direktional nap) the friktion (faux friktion aktually) varys greatly with direktion. Allso the friktion varys greatly with age of kloth. Thusly the squirt and kurv of the qball (ie patrick's squerve) haztabe allowed for, az uzual, but worse than that the allowance depends greatly on direktion of shot.

This adds one more dimension to the trickyness of uzing side, kompared to a napless bedkloth, or kompared to a nappy bedkloth but with nondirektional nap (iz there such a thing).

The throw of the redball iznt a big deal, it iz sort of the same no matter what. Alltho praps what u are referring to iz that with a napped kloth the red (and the qball) will drift (in some direktions) even if having no spin. This adds yet another dimension to the trickyness. I call the plainball drift "driftkurv", and i call the kurv due to spin "spinkurv" (and masse-kurv iz something else). Both are due to the nap.

So in snooker longrange shots are uzually hit plainball. Spin iz rezerved for shortrange pots or at least eezy pots.
mac.

I allways thort that the one good thing about K pool rubbers iz that the rebound angles were very konsistent and fair. Which made up for the fakt that they are dead dead dead.

But i see what u mean about the double-double, ie that spin on the objektball tends to square the trajektory off the second cush. Yes i kan see that this makes double-doubles more diffikult, alltho it makes some "impossible" banks shots possible too i guess.

And az u say snooker rails dont square up so much. Aktually i know of some tables where they do. And in the oldendays they squared up drastikally. This helped the play of english billiards aktually. Nowadays squaring up uzually shows that the rails are too high -- solution, lower the rails -- or put tape over the rubber, if not allready.
mac.

bradb
09-01-2012, 05:05 PM
Yes, pool rails seem to flatten out the OB balls rebound despite the fact the cloth is shaved. Very frustrating going from one table to the other. I find the softer I shoot banks on my pool table the more accurate the angle is. Where as on the 12' you can smack the ball hard and its still true. Its a learning curve.

Speaking of cloth there's a great video by Dennis Taylor on nap roll.

He demonstrated quite effectively how a ball shot with slow roll traveling past the blue spot across the nap from the bottom right pocket will swing in, and from the reverse end of the table the opposite effect only even more pronounced.

Before a match Dennis would always test the table roll with this technique to get a feel of the cloth. This would also depend on how the table was brushed and of course how old the cloth was. Dennis more than anyone I can think of was an expert on table cloth and its effect on play.

Even Ronnie keeps it plain except when he's showing off.

cushioncrawler
09-01-2012, 05:41 PM
Yes in fakt i woz the first person (the only in fakt) to show that driftkurv on a nappy kloth woz due to spin. What i found woz that a rolling ball acquires sidespin, and that the driftkurv woz due in part to the aktion of that spin. Plus the aktion of some crowd-surfing.

I seem to remember that there were 4 direktions of travel on a 12' table where u get zero driftkurv, ie the ball goze straight. In all other direktions a slowly rolling ball drifts left or right a little or a lot.

But this replaced one problem with another. What causes a spinning ball to kurv. I call this spinkurv. So mac hadta work out the causes of spinkurv, not eezy, and another world first for mac.
mac.

cushioncrawler
09-01-2012, 05:55 PM
A short verzion of DRIFTKURV makes up CHAPTER 78 of THE CUSHION CRAWLERS BIBLE in the KEEPANDSHARE website.
Warning -- this article contains heavy arithmetik. The article haz not had any peer review, and komments are wellkum.
mac.
If the following link dont work then u kan eezyly find the article the hard way (pun intended).
Sorry, but this stuff haz little to do with the myth of the centerball hit.

http://www.keepandshare.com/doc3/9539/chapter-78-pdf-1-pdf-october-1-2010-9-33-pm-595k

bradb
09-01-2012, 06:22 PM
I stand corrected, I now know of two people who are experts on table cloth roll.
Very intensive Mac, you obviously have spent a great deal of thought on this.

cushioncrawler
09-01-2012, 06:56 PM
I started thinking about spinkurv on a nappy kloth in 1985. There had been duzzens of silly explanations since say 1850.

The reference (in chapter 78) to chapter 66 shood hav sayd chapter 76 (ROLL) -- 76 talks about airsqeez and airsuck in the footprint affekting roll rezistance etc.
mac.

cushioncrawler
09-01-2012, 07:29 PM
14ball brad jim bca spider.
Re Muecci's idea about uzing a 1/4tip offset, this seems to relate to most players aiming offcenter nonintentionally due to sighting problems due to dominant eye.

14ball sez he aims 1/4tip too far right, which shows that 14ball iz right-eye-dominant. The uzual error iz about 1mm, whereaz 1/4tip iz say 3mm. But i hav seen a good snooker player (Tom) hit 1/2tip offcenter, every shot, and Tom won our club championship, but Tom woz blind in one eye.

I think that most players would benefit by praktising straight-in skrewshots uzing a dotty qball, and looking at the nonintentional sidespin etc, and experimenting with aiming "offcenter" ie to help hit center.

Me myself i tend to aim 1mm left of center, and i tend to get nonintentional lefthandspin. And i find that i need to aim 5mm right'of'center, not 1mm, ie for the qball to kum back pure. It aint simple. And in fakt depending on which cue i am uzing, and which style, sometimes i get nonintentional righthandspin. No, it aint simple.

And that bizness re uzing side to throw the objektball into the pkt iz a separate issue i think and duznt hav anything to do with what 14ball iz saying, or wanting to say, or at least it shoodnt.
mac.

cushioncrawler
09-01-2012, 07:37 PM
Remember my oldold posting about WHERE IZ THE CENTER OF THE QBALL.
This had about 36,000 hits and kept getting over 100 hits per day when all a sudden the site went down and the posting woz lost.
Anyhow it talked about the problem of seeing sighting aiming at center of qball.
mac.

bradb
09-04-2012, 02:02 PM
I had a center ball problem that is probably 1/8 tip off center. Not much, but when drawing back it may pull the ball away from the pocket on long hits. I've had this since I first started playing years ago. But the ball still dropped so I didn't think much about it. In fact I did'nt even know I had it until I started examining my stroke more carefully recently.

I had been compensating by moving my dominate eye over to the left slightly, so as a result my chin was'nt lined up square over the shaft. Once I corrected my alinement over the shaft the ball started missing the pocket right! So now I had to address the dominate eye problem and concentrate on hitting the ball dead center for pull backs. It was like starting over. After 40 years of play I had too revamp my stroke.

Old habits die hard and I still have to remind myself to stay level. I'm not sure if I should have stayed where I was?

I notice Jim Furich has returned to his loopy swing, his old habit was just too much to give up. Brad

cushioncrawler
09-04-2012, 06:26 PM
I bort a dotty qball to help my praktis. U pool guys uze a dotty ball for praktis and play, so i would assume that all pool players knew how rotten their aim and stroke were. It must be az obvious az slicing out of bounds off the tee.

But brad's 1/8th ball-off problem, iz that at address (ie aim), or iz it due to bad stroke.

I am amazed that pool players are allways talking about the pozition of the dominant eye -- and talking about mooving the head pozzy. No-one else in the whole woild ever duzz this sort of thing, and me myself i reckon its all bull, i reckon it kan only make your brain hurt. But someone did tell me that neil robertson (snooker pro) experimented with this and it worked. I will ask neil when next we kross paths.

I think that we all revamp our stroke every day, or at least we shood.
With me it iz a kontinuous (kontinual) process. Shortrange skrews, longrange skrews, slow plainballs etc etc -- where duzz the objektball go today. Its never ending.

In fakt its more than that. I reckon that i hav a different style stance grip stroke for every different class of shot. And if i hav time, i havta re-vizit eech of theze everyday. But remember, i play on a 12' table, and i play inoffs cannons and pots, with a 9.75mm qtip.

For some shots i simply aim 1/4 ball off where i want, eg if i want to hit the red halfball, i might aim 1/4 ball (or 3/4 ball).
Or, after i aim, i might pivot a little (to the right uzually), uzing fronthandpivot, or backhandpivot, or sometimes a kombination. I sometimes uze a large pivot when i want lots of sidespin, but here abov i am talking about uzing 1mm or 2mm of pivot to offset bad aim or bad stroke.

I luvv funny golf swings, what with me having a furyk loop myself.
mac.

bradb
09-04-2012, 08:21 PM
It was a dominate eye problem. When I came thru the stroke straightened back out and I potted the ball. So if one were to look straight on where I was starting at set point, it would be just a little to the left. What I had done was to learn to shoot by adjusting to this slight anomaly.

I have played with the spotted ball but I don't think it was enough to show up there. I hated the spotted ball anyway, i always relied on instinct to stroke thru. I have of course gone thru the many different stances and cue grip pressures over the years like other long time players.

Interestingly enough I took snooker lessons from the western Canadian champion here when I converted to snooker and he never noticed my slight mis-alinement.

It was when I got older and my game deteriorated that I started really studying and analyzing my stroke. And thats when I noticed i was not straight over the shaft. Rae Readon had this same problem because of a broken shoulder he suffered when he worked in the coal mines as a kid. He never fixed it and continued playing with the mis alinement his whole career.

But I worked on it and now as a result my stroke is dead even but I can't shoot anything like I did when I was in my 20's, 30s. But then again of course few of us can.

cushioncrawler
09-04-2012, 09:41 PM
Yes, so u are left-eye-dominant -- the most common thing.
But i reckon that a small error in aim (ie on the qball and on the targetball) iz a minor thing kompared to a bad stroke.

I know that there will be a lot of groaning out there if i mention the benefit of uzing a bent cue, to offset bad aim and stroke, so i wont.

But taper and balance kan help or hurt. Praps not so much with that silly looking loop-bridge, but it kan with a vee-bridge.

For instance last nite i won my game, and my opponent had been unbeaten this year in two leagues. And last nite i played with 5.8oz of sheet lead taped halfway down my shaft (i hav a 3/4 jointed cue). And, allso, in addition, i played with the minibutt (mini-extn) on the cue the whole time. Wt = 18oz + 6oz + 4oz = 28oz.

And i havta confess that i had intended to play with my other minibutt to which i had taped 5oz of sheet lead, which would hav made the wt 33oz. But i had left the heavy minibutt at home -- good thing -- koz 33oz iz probly too much. With a 33oz cue the balance point iz allmost irrelevant.

Anyhow, a heavy cue sure straightens out your bad stroke.
And i aint alone, a few weeks ago one of our opponents woz uzing a 30oz cue. He had drilled it out and filled with lead (or solder).

Last nite one of our opponents woz uzing a new John Parris cue, he sayd it took 12 months for manufakture and delivery. He lost. I woz going to mention the benefits of taping sheet lead to the shaft, but then decided that praps it woz too early, later in the year might be better.
mac.

bradb
09-05-2012, 09:48 AM
I think I mentioned this once before and there was some unbelievers but its a true story.

Rae Reardon played with a bent cue to overcome his disfigured shoulder. In fact he had to withdraw from a match once when he accidentally broke it. It took him a long time to create another cue exactly to the bend he needed to replace it.

We've all seen Strickland experiment with a 30oz cue. I almost laughed when he showed up for a 10 ball match with an extended length cue. It looked almost like a cue for using with the long bridge. But he ran the table 3 times in row.

I think he needed more weight to overcome a weakness in his follow thru.

cushioncrawler
09-05-2012, 09:57 AM
I hav experimented with a long heavy cue, and it iz amazing how straight it/they hit.

But i hav lots of velcro and sheet lead under my table -- koz, and i had allmost forgotten this -- i like the idea of adding wt to my hand or arm or elbow, to smooth and stabilize my stroke.

I think that Striktland uzed such wts.
mac.

dr_dave
09-13-2012, 09:10 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have heard the argument that outside english can help pot balls because it cancels out throw. This at least has some sort of truth to it.</div></div>... only if you use the "gearing" amount of outside English (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/English.html#outside).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But inside english does not cancel throw, and does not correct for striking off center. Not to discount cue ball control, but thats about all IE is gonna do for you.</div></div>Actually, inside English (in addition to sometimes being required for position play) does offer some advantages outside English does not. For more info, see the inside English resource page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/English.html#inside)

Regards,
Dave

cushioncrawler
09-13-2012, 06:20 PM
Dr Dave's article says that inside english kan giv less throw and more konsistant throw.
On a 12' table (for english billiards), for some shots, i find that uzing outside english givs a more konsistant direktion (and speed) for the objektball. And inside english givs a more konsistant direktion for the qball (but not speedwize), uzually a paramount konsideration in billiards.
mac.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why do some people like to use inside English on most shots?

First of all, the type of English is usually dictated by cue ball position requirements for the next shot, so inside English will not always be the right choice. Otherwise, here are some possible reasons to favor inside English (IE) when other English is not required (or when no English is required):

IE increases throw at small cut angles, but actually reduces the amount of throw at larger cut angles.
The amount of throw with IE can be much more consistent than with outside English (OE) if the amount of English varies a little. In other words, the amount of throw varies more with tip placement for OE vs. IE. This might explain why some people prefer using IE on cut shots ... because they can better anticipate and adjust for the amount of throw.
The least amount of throw, and the most throw consistency, occurs with fast IE shots.</div></div>

Bambu
09-14-2012, 06:53 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have heard the argument that outside english can help pot balls because it cancels out throw. This at least has some sort of truth to it.</div></div>... only if you use the "gearing" amount of outside English (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/English.html#outside).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But inside english does not cancel throw, and does not correct for striking off center. Not to discount cue ball control, but thats about all IE is gonna do for you.</div></div>Actually, inside English (in addition to sometimes being required for position play) does offer some advantages outside English does not. For more info, see the inside English resource page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/English.html#inside)

Regards,
Dave</div></div>


I dunno Dave. Can you site something besides thin cuts where you could say inside english "helps" because it reduces throw? Or maybe in some other way? Mac, can you elaborate on what you mean by a consistent cue ball direction? How can spin alone effect direction?

dr_dave
09-14-2012, 07:58 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dunno Dave. Can you site something besides thin cuts where you could say inside english "helps" because it reduces throw?</div></div>Inside English reduces throw (compared to no English) over a wide range of cut angles, depending on the amount of spin. See the diagrams in the following article:

"Throw - Part VII: CIT/SIT combo (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2007/feb07.pdf)" (BD, February, 2007)

Also, here are some pertinent items from my squirt, swerve, and throw effects resource page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#English_effects):

35. The amount of throw with IE can be much more consistent than with OE if the amount of English varies a little. In other words, the amount of throw varies more with tip placement for OE vs. IE. This might explain why some people prefer using IE on cut shots ... because they can better anticipate and adjust for the amount of throw.

36. The least amount of throw, and the most throw consistency, occurs with fast IE shots.

In support of the inside English items 35 and 36, see the 2nd plot on page 3 of TP A.28 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/technical_proofs/new/TP_A-28.pdf), which corresponds to 30-degree cut-angle stun shots at different speeds and varying amount of both outside English (positive in the plots) and inside English (negative in the plots). In the plot, notice how consistent and small the amount of throw is for fast-speed inside-English shots over a wide range of English amount (see the left side of the green curve, which is very low and level).

Regards,
Dave

Bambu
09-14-2012, 09:06 AM
Interesting Dave, thanks. On #35, I can relate to inside being more consistent, throw wise. But personally, I still wouldnt consider that helpful overall when it comes to pocketing balls.

On #36: If you hit it fast/hard wont throw be minimal anyway?

On the half ball, 30 degree cuts: This may be the only time I'd consider throw before shooting, especially if swerve is involved. But I would still suspect inside english to be least preferred amongst players(regardless of throw consistency). Just my thoughts here, of course.

dr_dave
09-14-2012, 10:18 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dr_dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Inside English reduces throw (compared to no English) over a wide range of cut angles, depending on the amount of spin. See the diagrams in the following article:

"Throw - Part VII: CIT/SIT combo (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2007/feb07.pdf)" (BD, February, 2007)

Also, here are some pertinent items from my squirt, swerve, and throw effects resource page (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#English_effects):

35. The amount of throw with IE can be much more consistent than with OE if the amount of English varies a little. In other words, the amount of throw varies more with tip placement for OE vs. IE. This might explain why some people prefer using IE on cut shots ... because they can better anticipate and adjust for the amount of throw.

36. The least amount of throw, and the most throw consistency, occurs with fast IE shots.

In support of the inside English items 35 and 36, see the 2nd plot on page 3 of TP A.28 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/technical_proofs/new/TP_A-28.pdf), which corresponds to 30-degree cut-angle stun shots at different speeds and varying amount of both outside English (positive in the plots) and inside English (negative in the plots). In the plot, notice how consistent and small the amount of throw is for fast-speed inside-English shots over a wide range of English amount (see the left side of the green curve, which is very low and level)</div></div>Interesting Dave, thanks. On #35, I can relate to inside being more consistent, throw wise. But personally, I still wouldnt consider that helpful overall when it comes to pocketing balls.</div></div>Often, we don't have a choice for which type of English to use based on positional requirements. However, it sounds like you are limiting the discussion to a cut shot where CB position or a scratch is not a concern. In these cases, some people prefer no English, some people prefer "spinning the ball in" (with gearing outside English), and some people (including some top players) seem to like inside English. As I point out, the inside English approach does offer some benefits to those who can use it effectively.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On #36: If you hit it fast/hard wont throw be minimal anyway?</div></div> Throw is less in most cases at faster speed, but it is even lower with inside English in many cases.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... I would still suspect inside english to be least preferred amongst players(regardless of throw consistency).</div></div>I think this is probably true in general for most people.

Regards,
Dave

cushioncrawler
09-14-2012, 04:20 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dunno Dave. Can you site something besides thin cuts where you could say inside english "helps" because it reduces throw? Or maybe in some other way? Mac, can you elaborate on what you mean by a consistent cue ball direction? How can spin alone effect direction?</div></div>We all agree with Dr Dave re friktion being less when more speed, and less when more balltoball sliding speed (eg inside english).

But the problem with IE iz kix. Minikix (eg ball impakt marks), and maxikix (eg chalk marks). If u get a minikick or maxikick then inside english makes things worse -- the objektball suffers much throw, and takes an evil trajekt.

On the other hand, IE iz very friendly for the qball trajekt (ie deflexion angle). With zero english a minikick or maxikick givs the qball a wider angle, likewize if u uze IE, but the beauty of IE iz that the wider deflexion angle iz minimized by IE. The qball deflexion angle iz uzually paramount in English Billiards.

So, if i hadta play an eezy pot red, with my life resting on the rezult, i would uze OE, koz with OE an unwanted kick wouldnt change (much) the red's angle.

But if i hadta play an eezy inoff (ie to scratch), with my life resting on the rezult, i would uze IE, koz an unwanted kick wouldnt change (much) the qball's deflexion angle.

Here iz a little test that i did years ago for IE. Set the qball and objektball so that u will scratch (ie qball enters a pkt, ie an inoff) when uzing lots of checkside (ie IE).
Then put lots of chalk on the objektball at the kontakt zone and play that inoff again, ie with IE. U will find that the qball goze into the pkt in allmost exaktly the same point az before. The IE negated the effekt of the maxikick.

Re thin kuts, thin kuts are i think a very personal thing. For example, i tend to go better when i aim to just miss the objektball, and hoik (swoop, flourish) to get the needed thin kontakt. This applys to kuts to my left. I aint so good at hoiking for kuts to the right. For kuts to the right i might aim to just miss and then uze some fronthandpivot to the left (ie OE) such that the qball squirt givs me the wanted thin kontakt.
mac.

cushioncrawler
09-14-2012, 04:38 PM
Another example. In English Billiards i like playing runs of midloozers. Here i play from inhand, in the Dee, and go inoff the red into a midpkt. The main trick iz to make the red hit the topcush and kum back and stop such that u hav a similar midloozer. U are allowed a max run of 15 such consecutiv inoffs. If u play a cannon, u are then allowed another 15 inoffs (or pots).

Few players kan make a run of more than say 5 midloozers, 15 iz rare. It aint eezy. U sometimes miss the inoff, more often u leev the red too short, or the red runs too klose to the side cush.

Anyhow, i find that i get longer runs of midloozers when i uze a bit of OE. The red tends to kum back on perfikt line, and length. But OE iz dangerous, it magnifys any minikick or maxikick, and i might miss the inoff.

On the other hand, i kan minimize the likelyhood of missing an inoff, i do this by uzing IE. But i wont get a long run of midloozers, koz the red often takes a bad line, and pretty soon a midloozer aint possible, ie u havta play a potred, or praps a cannon.
mac.

Bambu
09-15-2012, 07:43 AM
I agree with you Dave, different methods for different shooters and all. I dont seem to notice any throw if I shoot hard, especially if the balls are clean. I'm sure its there anyway, but not enough for me to have to adjust for it.

Mac, I dont have these problems with skids so much. I wonder if the smaller balls get dirty faster? But I agree, any spin helps negate the effect. If I do find myself skidding alot(like at a bar) I try to use a little OE too.

dr_dave
09-15-2012, 09:15 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mac, I dont have these problems with skids so much. I wonder if the smaller balls get dirty faster? But I agree, any spin helps negate the effect. If I do find myself skidding alot(like at a bar) I try to use a little OE too. </div></div>I also like using "gearing" outside English (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/English.html#outside) to try to negate the effects of throw on some shots, especially slower-speed shots close to stun (especially when I play on old and dirty equipment where cling/skid/kick (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/throw.html#cling) is a bigger concern than normal). However, to do this effectively, one must be good at judging the amount of English needed for a given cut angle.

Regards,
Dave

Bambu
09-15-2012, 04:06 PM
Effectively? I dont like to brag or anything, but I am the best player in my whole house!

cushioncrawler
09-15-2012, 04:40 PM
''''''I wonder if the smaller balls get dirty faster?'''''''''
''''''(especially when I play on old and dirty equipment where cling/skid/kick is a bigger concern than normal).''''''''

Dirty balls must be a pooltable thing. On a 12' table i hav never hoid anyone ever complain about dirty balls.
I hav hoid myself complain when the balls reacted funny, but i suspekted that this woz koz someone had kleened them with kleener and hot water, and i sayed that the balls would soon settle down after a bit of play, which they did.

Which reminds me. Some of the most recent tests show that kleen balls will giv a giant kick (equiv to a chalkkick) 100% of the time. Here they meen very kleen, eg kleened with i think acetone or something. Praps alcohol would do the same, if u wanted to check.
mac.

cushioncrawler
09-15-2012, 04:52 PM
This morning i hav a sore left shoulder, koz yesterday i praktised potting red into a toppkt with red and qball near the top cush.

I hadta allow for throw with every shot i played. Roll, stun, skrew, slow, hard.
Hell, on my table, for some shots, uzing max OE, or max IE, the pot iz impossible. Pool players might not beleev this.
On the other hand, for some shots, the potred woz impossible unless i uzed a bit of IE. Pool players might not beleev this.

The top pockets on my table are standard, but the cushkloth iz old and worn. Most of the impossible shots would be possible if i had newish slippery cushkloth.
mac.

Rich R.
09-16-2012, 06:57 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Effectively? I dont like to brag or anything, but I am the best player in my whole house! </div></div>
I'm the best player in my house too but, then again, my wife doesn't play. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Bambu
09-16-2012, 08:47 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cushioncrawler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">''''''I wonder if the smaller balls get dirty faster?'''''''''
''''''(especially when I play on old and dirty equipment where cling/skid/kick is a bigger concern than normal).''''''''

Dirty balls must be a pooltable thing. On a 12' table i hav never hoid anyone ever complain about dirty balls.
I hav hoid myself complain when the balls reacted funny, but i suspekted that this woz koz someone had kleened them with kleener and hot water, and i sayed that the balls would soon settle down after a bit of play, which they did.

Which reminds me. Some of the most recent tests show that kleen balls will giv a giant kick (equiv to a chalkkick) 100% of the time. Here they meen very kleen, eg kleened with i think acetone or something. Praps alcohol would do the same, if u wanted to check.
mac. </div></div>

I dunno Mac. Everything I've learned tells me that clean balls throw less, and skid less too. (Thats why I spent over 500 bucks on a ball polisher.) Not sure about alcohol or acetone, but a good plastic cleaner does wonders for me. My balls are always clean, so I dont skid much. And I use alotta center ball, too.

I cant see how things would be different on a snooker table. If anything, wouldnt it be easier to get a smaller ball full of chalk marks faster? (Smaller tip too, but still maybe a greater tip to ball ratio.)

Bambu
09-16-2012, 08:55 AM
Rich, my wife doesnt play either..... how else could I claim such status?!

cushioncrawler
09-16-2012, 03:26 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bambu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Everything I've learned tells me that clean balls throw less, and skid less too. (Thats why I spent over 500 bucks on a ball polisher.) Not sure about alcohol or acetone, but a good plastic cleaner does wonders for me. My balls are always clean, so I dont skid much. And I use alotta center ball, too.

I cant see how things would be different on a snooker table. If anything, wouldnt it be easier to get a smaller ball full of chalk marks faster? (Smaller tip too, but still maybe a greater tip to ball ratio.)</div></div>The chalkmarks are probly the same. 52.5mm balls and 10mm qtips, kompared to 57.2mm balls and 13mm qtips.
But in pool players seem to chalkup every shot, in English Billiards i might go 10shots before i chalkup.
Or putting it another way, mac's block of chalk will last mac more than twice az long az brad's will.

The real culprit iz minikix. Theze are caused by balltoball impakt marks. The vitreous krappamiths with a bakelite center that we all uze nowadays hav very large strong impakt marks that take ages to naturally polish away.

Even in a staid gentlemanly game like English Billiards if u pick up the redball u will see lots of impaktmarks, some large, some small, some fresh, some old. Its the big new ones that are the most dangerous. A polishing machine iz a great idea.

Dr Onoda woz the first to do a study on the amount of impakt marks and their size, and the probability of a minikick.

But i hav dunn tests where one fresh impakt mark impakted on another fresh impakt mark and the rezulting kick woz az strong az a fullyfledged chalkkick.
mac.

Re acetone etc, i wouldnt kleen krapps with any kleener. I might uze hot water. But all i do nowadays iz i uze my bare hands to polish the krapps. And i dont care if i leev greasy fingerprints all over the krapps. I used to worry about bodyoil giving a reversekick, ie where u got less friktion. I guess that this kan happen, but i dont worry about it no more. The real worry iz impakt marks.

Bambu
09-17-2012, 06:51 AM
Youre probably right, we dont need to chalk as often as we do. But if you run the balls through a machine after each use, they stay clean enough to use all day. That way, you can chalk to your hearts content. I used to clean by hand too, works but is not as effective. And you dont need to spend big money on a polisher. I've seen many home made versions, made well for around $40. I dont usually like waxes or cleaning solutions either, but this one is made for plastic. Without a machine though, it does leave a slight residue behind. If anyone wants to try it:

http://www.interstateplastics.com/plasti...CFbSmPAodCA0AHA (http://www.interstateplastics.com/plastic-accessories-details.php?sku=CLN1EA8OZ&utm_source=adwordsfroogle&utm_campaign=adwordsfroogle&utm_medium=na&utm_content=accessories-CLN1EA8OZ&gclid=CI-aofPUvLICFbSmPAodCA0AHA)

cushioncrawler
09-17-2012, 04:29 PM
When i say kleening, i meen polishing. And when i say polishing i dont meen kleening.
I wouldnt allow oils within a mile of my krapps -- hell i dont even like soap. Hot water shood do the trick.
Oil -- duznt oil get on the bedkloth, and giv sticky dirty conditions.

The way to get rid of impakt marks iz to polish. But when i say polish i dont meen polish like when u "polish the car", ie uzing a waxy filler.
Rubbing (polishing) with the hands iz better than nothing, but it takes a lot of time, but with English Billiards there are only 3 krapps, so 3 minutes will go a long way.

Waxy oils -- no i dont like the sound of that at all.
mac.

Here iz an idea i hav mentioned before. Uze a new polished qball every frame, or even every time u are inhand.
The old ball would be polished in the polisher, ready for its return.
That would fix the chalkmarks too.

Bambu
09-18-2012, 08:20 AM
Rotating cue balls is a good idea mac, I did that alot before I got the polisher. My post made it seem like the stuff I use is waxy, but its not. Its a clear fluid, works great. If I only had 3 balls though, I wouldnt have bought a machine. (I thought you were a snooker player, oh well.)

cushioncrawler
09-18-2012, 04:58 PM
I would play snooker but i liv 30 minutes out of town in the bush.
Snooker iz like pool in that everyone uzes the same qball, and lots of shots are full strength, with lots of chalking up, hencely the qball iz allways in bad kondition.
I allways wondered why reffs waste time stopping a game to clean the qball, when they kood hav a kleen qball in their pocket. Like baseball. I think the usofa baseball iz on telly this morning and i might watch while i praktis.
mac.

Bananas
09-25-2012, 08:36 AM
This has be discussed infinitem. I just came back to the board but I can tell you that "center ball" was the topic 15 years ago. The same theory and the same responses. What's new is old and what's old keeps rearing its ugly head.

bradb
09-27-2012, 04:08 PM
For a sharp cut to the corner pocket with the OB about a foot from the rail and the Qb above it, I like inside english for adding an extra bit of throw to get the Ob to the pocket. Also it will stun the Ob as it comes off the rail and will hold to that end of the table. This removes the risk of coming off the rail "hot" and scratching in the bottom pocket.

In snooker this is a popular shot when potting the black on a sharp angle. It also gives the option for kicking back into the reds for a spread. Brad

cushioncrawler
09-27-2012, 05:33 PM
I am thinking that in snooker any time u pot the black off its spot the qball will hit the reds, ie without uzing side or skrew -- here i meen when the qball hits the topcush. In fakt the only way to miss the pack iz to uze lots of side or skrew -- ie when kumming off the topcush.
mac.

bradb
09-28-2012, 07:43 PM
Well it depends on the angle of course Mac, I'm suggesting a cut at about 45d with the Qb about 3' off the end rail. At this angle a plain ball hit will send the Qb towards the other end rail corner, or it will probably hit near it and stay around the small colors. Or worse scratch. Plus you want to stun it to stay near the pack.

cushioncrawler
09-28-2012, 08:34 PM
A 45dg kut iz about 1/4 ball. If the qball iz rolling it will go down the centerline of the table.
But if u play soft skrew az u say u kan hold the qball at top.

A halfball pot off the Spot would take the qball towards the opposit corner pkt in baulk, which iz what u meant i think, but halfball iz a 30dg kut.
But even halfball if u hit hard (to break the pack) the qball goze down along the centerline at first for a while.
mac.

bradb
09-29-2012, 12:06 AM
No it will come back towards the shooter with plain ball. With i.e. it will come forward and hit into the rack. Thats my favorite shot. The black will track nicely to the pocket with the extra throw and the Qb will stay on the money end of the table.

Thorburn was the master of that shot, he could work around the black with precision always breaking just one or two balls out.

cushioncrawler
09-29-2012, 06:17 AM
Bradd -- I am thinking that your "plain ball" iz my "stun".
mac.

bradb
09-29-2012, 10:02 AM
Oh I see. By plain ball i meant with no spin other than a bit of top. Yes that would bring the ball more straight back, but since the black spot is angled to the corner and not straight across it comes back at enough angle to miss the rack.

As a snooker player I know you probably have practiced potting the black by lining up a string of reds above the black spot. This is how I learned to use IE and OE to keep the run going. After about 2 or 3 shots you will need a lot of control spin and stun to stay on the reds.

I just noticed Dr Dave's post on IE, very good examples in his videos.

cushioncrawler
09-29-2012, 04:19 PM
Brad -- What i meant woz the opposit. What i meant iz that i thort that when u sayd plainball that u aktually uzed stun. But az u say plainball meens a rolling qball, ie hit with top.

Being a billiards player i pot the red off the Spot, whereaz snooker players pot the Black. But i would say that i praktis potting from around the Spot more than some pro snooker players.
mac.

bradb
09-30-2012, 10:16 AM
Plain ball was a bad choice of words on my part. I was trying to describe a hit with no side.

I think practicing around the black spot is a good way to test every aspect of your game. There's every type of spin and stun required to hold in the area. This is where most pool players struggle when they switch to snooker.
14-1 players do best at snooker because of the patience and skill it requires to break out balls and work a rack.

cushioncrawler
09-30-2012, 04:23 PM
PLAINBALL iz the proper term, meening pure rolling, zero side, zero stun.

Yesterday i praktised potting off or around the Spot for say only 3 hours, but my excuse iz that i did havta play in a tournament in town all day. I only won one game, and that woz by 1 pt. So today i will probly spend 6hrs on my table, 5hrs of that around the Spot.
mac.