View Full Version : Another worthwhile Jefferson Quote

09-27-2012, 06:49 AM

09-27-2012, 07:42 AM
Hmmmmmm -- thinx.
[1] In jefferson's day there woz no such thing az socializm, so he woznt talking about socializm.

[2] At the time he sayd that quote, americans were not happy. Koz he sayd future happyness, implying that there twernt any happyness around just yet.

[3] When he sayd "if they can prevent the gov from wasting" then this implys that the gov woz not yet wasting.

[4] So, the gov woz not wasting, but americans were not happy.

[5] Yet he sayd that if gov woz wasting then americans would not be happy.

[6] So he kontradikted hizself. So, he showed that hiz idea woz wrong, out of hiz own mouth.

09-27-2012, 07:45 AM
So in an age when the gov did zero for aktually helping peeple, what and how kood any gov waste money, ie waste labour?????
What and how did gov take care of peeple?????????

There woz only one way i think -- by waging war.

What else kood he hav meant.

09-27-2012, 08:31 AM
Says here (http://wiki.monticello.org/mediawiki/index.php/Wasting_the_labours_of_the_people) that's a misquote.

Close enough to the main meaning, but why is the 'scholarship' of the conservatives, particularly about the founders, so faulty at times?

09-27-2012, 08:49 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Close enough to the main meaning, but why is the 'scholarship' of the conservatives, particularly about the founders, so faulty at times? </div></div>LOL, close enough to the meaning. So why don't you talk about that? The meaning and what Jefferson thought would happen if we were in the position that Obama and the left are putting us in?


09-27-2012, 09:06 AM
The twin edifices of our social welfare state were not created by Obama, nor extended by Obama. They date to FDR (for SS) and LBJ (for Medicare and Medicaid). Obama is more than willing to compromise both programs, much to the dislike of his base.

Neither 'wastes' the people's resources, and all substantially increase the happiness and welfare of the people. Prior to MC, the elderly were the highest poverty age cohort. After it, they were the least. Overhead is at a low single digit number (about 2%) for administration.

If we're wasting our resources to 'take care of people,' that would be our garrisoning the planet with 800 military bases in over 100 countries.

09-27-2012, 11:27 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Neither 'wastes' the people's resources</div></div>You don't think there is any waste in the money used for both SS and Medicare? Seriously?


09-27-2012, 03:34 PM
Abuses and frauds in those systems exist.

But the systems are not a waste of the people's resources, just that abuse or fraud. The point of mentioning the quote is to claim SS and MC overall are a waste of the people's resources, not simply the fraud and waste fractions thereof.

09-27-2012, 04:08 PM
The US National Debt
The US Government is plunging even more deeply into debt. Here are two short videos which set out graphically the continuing crisis.

To try to make sense of a "trillion" dollars, if a person spent a US$1 million per day for every day since Jesus was born, then it would take until about the year 2737 to spend just the first trillion dollars.

History of the Debt
The US has always had a national debt. The first version was created at the outset of the American war of independence against the British (1776-1783). As soon as the fighting started, the Continental Congress authorized the issue of US$2 million of bills of credit (called "Continentals") to finance the war.

There is an old American expression that something is not "worth a Continental". This refers to the way that the Continental Congress issued too many "Continentals" and created the worst bout of inflation in US history in 1780. The new country had a very poor international credit rating because foreigners did not think that the Americans could handle their finances properly.

The British were eventually driven out in 1783. Under the original constitution, the new US Government did not have any independent power to raise revenue. Meanwhile, the 13 states had their own debts to pay off and so were reluctant to provide money to the new Government.

The new country started to slide into chaos. The Government was broke and the individual states were squabbling among themselves.

In 1787, there was a conference in Philadelphia to create a better constitution and a stronger national government. That 1787 constitution remains in force. The US Government was now given the power to tax.

The current form of national debt was started in 1791 and it was US$75 million. This may seem a small amount of money but it represented about 40 per cent of the US's gross national product.

The Debt Continues
The national debt has tended to keep on growing. The national debt reached a new high in 1804 when the US Government bought the Louisiana territory off France (the "Louisiana Purchase") for US$11.25 million. Ironically, Thomas Jefferson, one of the authors of the new Constitution, hated debt but the French offer was too good to refuse.

Thomas Jefferson, the third president, knew a lot about debt because he inherited from his father in law in 1773 an estate burdened with debt. He hated bankers and debts. Creating a national debt would serve only to enrich "the tribe of bank-mongers...seeking to filch from the public their swindling and barren gains". Hatred of financiers is nothing new in US politics!

But the Louisiana Purchase was too good to miss - and it has been justified by history. This means that the national debt is not necessarily a bad thing - providing the money is being used for worthwhile projects.

The Debt Goes Down
In the 1830s, the national debt went down to its lowest ever level: US$37,513. This was due both to President Andrew Jackson being very frugal and to the US Government selling land for development purposes.

Generally speaking the national debt has gone down in times of peace and gone up in times of war. The national debt increased by 21 times in World War I and six times in World War II.

The longest sustained period of debt reduction occurred after the Civil War (1861-5) to 1893, when the US Government ran a budget surplus every year and cut the debt to about a third of initial value. This resulted in more money in circulation for private expenditure and so contributed to the booming US economy. By the beginning of the 20th century all this growth meant that the US had become of the world's main economies.


09-27-2012, 04:10 PM
------ 1795 --------Fed--Xfer-State-Local-Total
Pensions ----------0.0 - 0.0 - 0.0 - 0.0 - 0.0
Health Care ------- 0.0 - 0.0 - 0.0 - 0.0 - 0.0
Education --------- 0.0 - 0.0 - 0.0 - 0.0 - 0.0
Defense -----------3.0 - 0.0 - 0.0 - 0.0 - 3.0
Welfare ----------- 0.0 - 0.0 - 0.0 - 0.0 - 0.0
Protection -------- 0.0 - 0.0 - 0.0 - 0.0 - 0.0
Transportation ---- 0.0 - 0.0 - 0.0 - 0.0 - 0.0
General Government 0.0 - 0.0 - 0.0 - 0.0 - 0.0
Other Spending ---- 1.5 - 0.0 - 0.0 - 0.0 - 1.5
Interest ----------- 3.2 - 0.0 - 0.0 - 0.0 - 3.2
Balance ----------- 0.0 - 0.0 - 0.0 - 0.0 - 0.0
Total Spending ---- 7.7 - 0.0 - 0.0 - 0.0 - 7.7
Federal Deficit --- 1.4 - 0.0 - 0.0 - 0.0 - 1.4
Gross Public Debt- 80.8 - 0.0 - 0.0 - 0.0 - 80.8

09-27-2012, 04:24 PM



09-27-2012, 04:32 PM
The Effects of American Reform Movements in the 1900s

Living in the United States of America is all about opportunity. The opportunity to get a good job, make money, and lead a life of good quality; in other words, the opportunity to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. However the opportunity for many people was not around through out the 1800s. Certain groups of people did not hold the basic rights that were guaranteed by the Constitution. In fact, most of the people that had opportunity were the wealthy white men, and few other people ever had any chances to lead a good life. For example, at the end of the 1800s African Americans had some rights, however a lot of their rights were severely limited by laws that were made by the wealthy white men. Also, Native Americans didn’t have any rights at all; they weren’t even considered United States citizens. So how did the United States go from a country that only benefited white men to a land of opportunity for everyone? The answer to this is through reform movements. The many reform movements through out United States History as shaped American Society and Culture to what it is today. For example, the Progressive movement saw many laws passed which are still in effect today. Also, without the Civil Rights movements we would still be living in a hypocritical, racist society.

In the late 1800’s a group of Americans decided that something needed to be done about the decline of moral and ethical values in most Americans. These people called themselves the progressives and started one of the most comprehensive reform movements in the United States to this day. Progressivism became so widespread that by the end of World War I, anyone who didn’t agree with Progressive ideals was labeled a communist. The Progressives had four major goals that they wished to accomplish. These four goals were to democratize America, to Americanize America, the humanization of capitalism and rationalization of the economy. Each goal dealt with a different aspect of America’s society that the Progressives thought needed help. The way these goals were accomplished was to get laws passed that would reform the practices of many Americans. Progressives held that in order to bring American back to its old time, rural values people would need to attend church more. One way this was accomplished was getting what were known as Sunday Blue Laws passed in many towns across the United States. These laws limited the things you could do on Sundays, and the idea behind them was that more people would go to church on Sundays. One such law prohibited the selling of alcohol on Sundays. Progressives first made this law to give people less choice about what they can do on Sundays, thus increasing the chances that they will to go to church. However, this law has stuck around, and in many places still enforced. Other reforms that are still around from the Progressive era are building safety codes, which were made to make factories and tenements in the cities safer for workers and city dwellers, School Nurses, which were hired to provide free health services to children from poor families, and public housing. However, During the Progressives’ time public housing buildings were known as settlement houses. These settlement houses were a place where people could go when they were having financial trouble. There one could get free room and board until they got back on their feet. These settlement houses have gone through many alterations through out the years to the public housing we know about today in many of the major Cities across the United State. There are many others reforms from the Progressive era such as direct primaries, Initiative Referendum and Reform, and the Meat Inspection act to name a few. Eventually the Progressive movement started spreading outside of the United States.

09-27-2012, 04:36 PM

1800 - 1861 ....... NOT A LOT OF HAPPYNESS.
1865 - 1900 ....... NOT A LOT OF HAPPYNESS.

09-27-2012, 04:45 PM
A proposal to classify happiness as a psychiatric disorder.
Bentall RP.
SourceDepartment of Clinical Psychology, Liverpool University.

It is proposed that happiness be classified as a psychiatric disorder and be included in future editions of the major diagnostic manuals under the new name: major affective disorder, pleasant type. In a review of the relevant literature it is shown that happiness is statistically abnormal, consists of a discrete cluster of symptoms, is associated with a range of cognitive abnormalities, and probably reflects the abnormal functioning of the central nervous system. One possible objection to this proposal remains--that happiness is not negatively valued. However, this objection is dismissed as scientifically irrelevant.



09-27-2012, 06:10 PM
Angelman syndromeFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Angelman syndrome

Angelman syndrome ( /ˈeɪndʒəl.mən/; abbreviated AS) is a neuro-genetic disorder characterized by intellectual and developmental disability, sleep disturbance, seizures, jerky movements (especially hand-flapping), frequent laughter or smiling, and usually a happy demeanor.

AS is a classic example of genomic imprinting in that it is usually caused by deletion or inactivation of genes on the maternally inherited chromosome 15 while the paternal copy, which may be of normal sequence, is imprinted and therefore silenced. The sister syndrome, Prader-Willi syndrome, is caused by a similar loss of paternally inherited genes and maternal imprinting. AS is named after a British pediatrician, Dr. Harry Angelman, who first described the syndrome in 1965.[1] An older, alternative term for AS, happy puppet syndrome, is generally considered pejorative and stigmatizing so it is no longer the accepted term, though it is sometimes still used as an informal term of diagnosis. People with AS are sometimes known as "angels", both because of the syndrome's name and because of their youthful, happy appearance.

[edit] Signs and symptomsThe following text lists signs and symptoms of Angelman syndrome and their relative frequency in affected individuals.[2]

Consistent (100%)

Developmental delay, functionally severe
Speech impairment, no or minimal use of words; receptive and non-verbal communication skills higher than verbal ones
Movement or balance disorder, usually ataxia of gait and/or tremulous movement of limbs
Behavioral uniqueness: any combination of frequent laughter/smiling; apparent happy demeanor; easily excitable personality, often with hand flapping movements; hypermotoric behavior; short attention span
Frequent (more than 80%)

Delayed, disproportionate growth in head circumference, usually resulting in microcephaly (absolute or relative) by age 2
Seizures, onset usually &lt; 3 years of age
Abnormal EEG, characteristic pattern with large amplitude slow-spike waves
Associated (20 - 80%)

Hypopigmented skin and eyes
Tongue thrusting; suck/swallowing disorders
Hyperactive tendon reflexes
Feeding problems during infancy
Uplifted, flexed arms during walking
Prominent mandible
Increased sensitivity to heat
Wide mouth, wide-spaced teeth
Sleep disturbance
Frequent drooling, protruding tongue
Attraction to/fascination with water
Excessive chewing/mouthing behaviors
Flat back of head
Smooth palms

09-27-2012, 06:17 PM

There is currently no cure available. The epilepsy can be controlled by the use of one or more types of anticonvulsant medications. However, there are difficulties in ascertaining the levels and types of anticonvulsant medications needed to establish control, because AS is usually associated with having multiple varieties of seizures, rather than just the one as in normal cases of epilepsy. Many families use melatonin to promote sleep in a condition which often affects sleep patterns. Many individuals with Angelman syndrome sleep for a maximum of 5 hours at any one time. Mild laxatives are also used frequently to encourage regular bowel movements and early intervention with physiotherapy is important to encourage joint mobility and prevent stiffening of the joints.

Those with the syndrome are generally happy and contented people who like human contact and play. People with AS exhibit a profound desire for personal interaction with others. Communication can be difficult at first, but as a child with AS develops, there is a definite character and ability to make themselves understood. People with AS tend to develop strong non-verbal skills to compensate for their limited use of speech. It is widely accepted that their understanding of communication directed to them is much larger than their ability to return conversation. Most afflicted people will not develop more than 5–10 words, if any at all.[9]

Seizures are a consequence, but so is excessive laughter,[10] which is a major hindrance to early diagnosis.

[edit] Prognosis
The severity of the symptoms associated with Angelman syndrome varies significantly across the population of those affected. Some speech and a greater degree of self-care are possible among the least profoundly affected. Unfortunately, walking and the use of simple sign language may be beyond the reach of the more profoundly affected. Early and continued participation in physical, occupational (related to the development of fine-motor control skills), and communication (speech) therapies are believed to improve significantly the prognosis (in the areas of cognition and communication) of individuals affected by AS. Further, the specific genetic mechanism underlying the condition is thought to correlate to the general prognosis of the affected person. On one end of the spectrum, a mutation to the UBE3A gene is thought to correlate to the least affected, whereas larger deletions on chromosome 15 are thought to correspond to the most affected.

The clinical features of Angelman syndrome alter with age. As adulthood approaches, hyperactivity and poor sleep patterns improve. The seizures decrease in frequency and often cease altogether and the EEG abnormalities are less obvious. Medication is typically advisable to those with seizure disorders. Often overlooked is the contribution of the poor sleep patterns to the frequency and/or severity of the seizures. Medication may be worthwhile in order to help deal with this issue and improve the prognosis with respect to seizures and sleep. Also noteworthy are the reports that the frequency and severity of seizures temporarily escalate in pubescent Angelman syndrome girls but do not seem to affect long-term health.

The facial features remain recognizable but many adults with AS look remarkably youthful for their age.

Puberty and menstruation begin at around the average age. Sexual development is thought to be unaffected, as evidenced by a single reported case of a woman with Angelman syndrome conceiving a female child who also had Angelman syndrome.[11]

The majority of those with AS achieve continence by day and some by night. Angelman syndrome is not a degenerative syndrome. Many people with AS improve their living skills with support.

Dressing skills are variable and usually limited to items of clothing without buttons or zippers. Most adults are able to eat with a knife or spoon and fork and can learn to perform simple household tasks. General health is fairly good and life-span near average. Particular problems which have arisen in adults are a tendency to obesity (more in females), and worsening of scoliosis[12] if it is present. The affectionate nature which is also a positive aspect in the younger children may also persist into adult life where it can pose a problem socially, but this problem is not insurmountable.

[edit] History
Dr. Harry Angelman, a pediatrician working in Warrington, England, first reported three children with this condition in 1965.[1] Angelman later described his choice of the title "Puppet Children" to describe these cases as being related to an oil painting he had seen while vacationing in Italy:

The history of medicine is full of interesting stories about the discovery of illnesses. The saga of Angelman's syndrome is one such story. It was purely by chance that nearly thirty years ago (e.g., circa 1964) three handicapped children were admitted at various times to my children's ward in England. They had a variety of disabilities and although at first sight they seemed to be suffering from different conditions I felt that there was a common cause for their illness. The diagnosis was purely a clinical one because in spite of technical investigations which today are more refined I was unable to establish scientific proof that the three children all had the same handicap. In view of this I hesitated to write about them in the medical journals. However, when on holiday in Italy I happened to see an oil painting in the Castelvecchio Museum in Verona called . . . a Boy with a Puppet. The boy's laughing face and the fact that my patients exhibited jerky movements gave me the idea of writing an article about the three children with a title of Puppet Children. It was not a name that pleased all parents but it served as a means of combining the three little patients into a single group. Later the name was changed to Angelman syndrome. This article was published in 1965 and after some initial interest lay almost forgotten until the early eighties.

—Angelman quoted by Charles Williams[13]
Case reports from the United States first began appearing in the medical literature in the early 1980s.[14][15] In 1987, it was first noted that around half of the children with AS have a small piece of chromosome 15 missing (chromosome 15q partial deletion).[16]

[edit] Epidemiology
Though the prevalence of Angelman syndrome is not precisely known, there are some estimates. The best data available are from studies of school age children, ages 6–13 years, living in Sweden and from Denmark where the diagnosis of AS children in medical clinics was compared to an 8 year period of about 45,000 births. The Swedish study showed an AS prevalence of about 1/20,000[17] and the Danish study showed a minimum AS prevalence of about 1/10,000.[18]

09-27-2012, 06:20 PM
Sadness is emotional pain associated with, or characterized by feelings of disadvantage, loss, despair, helplessness and sorrow. These feelings of certain things are usually negative. When one is sad, people often become less outspoken, less energetic, and emotional. Crying is an indication of sadness.

Sadness can be viewed as a temporary lowering of mood, whereas depression is more chronic.

Sadness is one of Paul Ekman's "six basic emotions - happy, sad, angry, surprised, afraid, disgusted".[1]

09-27-2012, 06:28 PM
What is it about sadness that correlates to intelligence?
I've always noticed intelligent people are sad, but it's not even a bad thing, sometimes i think they like the quality of being sad. It gives some sort of insight that i guess makes them ponder the state of well being? Does thought make us sad?
January 03, 2009

Best Answer - Chosen by Asker
There are many types of intelligence but if we talk about it in relation to this particular subject people who are more intelligent tend to be more aware of the world they live in , more aware of what is going on ,what is and what could be, they are more prone to analyze a situation on a deep level, to analyze themselves and they need more than their basic needs fulfilled to be happy. Knowing things , wanting to know things, having a strong inner existence (all things related to intelligence) can be burdening, to want so much and not get enough . Besides, intelligent people often are the ones who demand more from themselves and others and are more critical about themselves and the world.

09-27-2012, 06:32 PM
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.- Ernest Hemingway, author and journalist, Nobel laureate (1899-1961)

Hemingway, who took his own life in 1961, knew his share of both intelligent people and of unhappiness. He lived through two world wars, the Great Depression, four wives and an unknown number of failed romantic relationships, none of whichwould help him to develop happiness if he knew how.

As Hemingway's quote was based on his life experience, I will base the following speculation on both my personal and my professional experience as a sociologist. Not enough study exists to quote on this subject.

Western society is not set up to nurture intelligent children and adults, the way it dotes over athletes and sports figures, especially the outstanding ones. While we have the odd notable personality such as Albert Einstein, we also have many extremely intelligent people working in occupations that are considered amongthe lowliest, as may be attested by a review of the membership lists of Mensa (the club for the top two percent on intelligence scales).

Education systems in countries whose primary interest is in wealth accumulationencourage heroes in movies, war and sports, but not in intellectual development.

Super intelligent people manage, but few reach the top of the business or social ladder.
Children develop along four streams: intellectual, physical, emotional (psychological) and social. In classrooms, the smartest kids tend to be left out of moreactivities by other children than they are included in. They are "odd," they arethe geeks, they are social outsiders. In other words, they do not develop socially as well as they may develop intellectually or even physically where opportunities may exist for more progress.
Their emotional development, characterized by their ability to cope with risky or stressful situations, especially over long periods of time, also lags behind that of the average person.
Adults tend to believe that intelligent kids can deal with anything because theyare intellectually superior. This inevitably includes situations where the intelligent kids have neither knowledge nor skills to support their experience. They go through the tough times alone. Adults don't understand that they need help and other kids don't want to associate with kids the social leaders say are outsiders.
As a result we have many highly intelligent people whose social development progresses much slower than that of most people and they have trouble coping with the stressors of life that present themselves to everyone. It should come as no surprise that the vast majority of prison inmates are socially and emotionally underdeveloped or maldeveloped and a larger than average percentage of them are more intelligent than the norm.Western society provides the ideal incubator for social misfits and those with emotional coping problems. When it comes to happiness, people who are socially inept and who have trouble coping emotionally with the exigencies of life would not be among those you should expect to be happy.

This may be changing in the 21st century as the geeks gain recognition as peoplewith great potential, especially as people who might make their fortune in theworld of high technology. Geeks may be more socially accepted than in the past,but unless they receive more assistance with their social and emotional development, most are destined to be unhappy as they mature in the world of adults.

People with high intelligence, be they children or adults, still rank as socialoutsiders in most situations, including their skills to be good mates and parents.
<span style='font-size: 20pt'>Moreover, they tend to see more of the tragedy in the communites and countries they live in, and in the world, than the average person whose primary source of news and information is comedy shows on television.</span>
Tragedy is easier to find than compassion, even though compassion likely exists in greater proportion in mostcommunities.

Bill Allin'Turning It Around: Causes and Cures for Today's Epidemic Social Problems,' striving to make the difficult problems easier to understand so someone can change the system. Learn more at http://billallin.com

09-27-2012, 06:40 PM
Sorry! The word "happiness" doesn't occur in the KJV.

09-27-2012, 06:44 PM
occurs 28 times in 25 verses in the KJV

Gen 30:13 And Leah said, Happy am I, for the daughters will <span style='font-size: 20pt'>call me blessed: </span> and she called his name Asher.

Deu 33:29 Happy [art] thou, O Israel: who [is] like unto thee, O people <span style='font-size: 20pt'>saved by the LORD</span>, the shield of thy help, and who [is] the sword of thy excellency! and thine enemies shall be found liars unto thee; and thou shalt tread upon their high places.

1Ki 10:8 Happy [are] thy men, happy [are] these thy servants, which <span style='font-size: 20pt'>stand continually before thee</span>, [and] that hear thy wisdom.

2Ch 9:7 Happy [are] thy men, and happy [are] these thy servants, which stand continually before thee, and hear thy wisdom.

Job 5:17 Behold, happy [is] the man whom <span style='font-size: 20pt'>God correcteth:</span> therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:

Psa 127:5 Happy [is] the man that <span style='font-size: 20pt'>hath his quiver full of them:</span> they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.

Psa 128:2 For thou shalt <span style='font-size: 20pt'>eat the labour of thine hands:</span> happy [shalt] thou [be], and [it shall be] well with thee.

Psa 137:8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy [shall he be], that <span style='font-size: 20pt'>rewardeth thee </span>as thou hast served us.

Psa 137:9 Happy [shall he be], that <span style='font-size: 20pt'>taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.</span>

Psa 144:15 Happy [is that] people, that is in such a case: [yea], happy [is that] people, whose God [is] the <span style='font-size: 20pt'>LORD. </span>

Psa 146:5 Happy [is he] that [hath] the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope [is] in the <span style='font-size: 20pt'>LORD his God:</span>

Pro 3:13 Happy [is] the man [that] <span style='font-size: 20pt'>findeth wisdom,</span> and the man [that] <span style='font-size: 20pt'>getteth understanding.</span>

Pro 3:18 She [is] a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy [is every one] that <span style='font-size: 20pt'>retaineth her.</span>

Pro 14:21 He that despiseth his neighbour sinneth: but he that <span style='font-size: 20pt'>hath mercy on the poor,</span> happy [is] he.

Pro 16:20 He that handleth a matter wisely shall find good: and whoso <span style='font-size: 20pt'>trusteth in the LORD,</span> happy [is] he.

Pro 28:14 Happy [is] the man that <span style='font-size: 20pt'>feareth alway:</span> but he that hardeneth his heart shall fall into mischief.

Pro 29:18 Where [there is] no vision, the people perish: but he that <span style='font-size: 20pt'>keepeth the law,</span> happy [is] he.

Jer 12:1 Righteous [art] thou, O LORD, when I plead with thee: yet let me talk with thee of [thy] judgments: Wherefore doth the way of the wicked prosper? [wherefore] are all they happy <span style='font-size: 20pt'>that deal very treacherously? </span>

Mal 3:15 And now we call the <span style='font-size: 20pt'>proud </span>happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, [they that] tempt God are even delivered.

Jhn 13:17 If ye know these things, happy are ye <span style='font-size: 20pt'>if ye do them.</span>

Act 26:2 I think myself happy, king Agrippa, because I shall <span style='font-size: 20pt'>answer for myself this day </span>before thee touching all the things whereof I am accused of the Jews:

Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have [it] to thyself before God. Happy [is] he that <span style='font-size: 20pt'>condemneth not himself</span> in that thing which he alloweth.

Jam 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which <span style='font-size: 20pt'>endure.</span> Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

1Pe 3:14 But and if ye <span style='font-size: 20pt'>suffer for righteousness' sake,</span> happy [are ye]: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

1Pe 4:14 <span style='font-size: 20pt'>If ye be reproached for the name of Christ,</span> happy [are ye]; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

09-27-2012, 09:09 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But the systems are not a waste of the people's resources, just that abuse or fraud.</div></div>That is so freaking out in left field I cannot believe you would say it. The fraud and abuse has been allowed to carry on. It hasn't been stopped. Do you know how they fix it, they ask for more and more money. That is a waste of the money. It is wide-spread and they know how to combat fixing the issue. The Republicans try to cut money and what do they do? They immediately threaten to lay people off or cut services. Instead of stepping up to the challenge and remove the waste they fight for more money.

Also we have many many other ways the government abuses this money beyond SS and MC. There are tons of social programs that have no business being funded by the government yet they come to the well every year asking for more money. Now we have Obamacare offering free healthcare, beyond MC, for anyone willing to pay the penalty of not getting their own healthcare. It just keeps growing and growing and all you can see is SS and MC. Sad.


09-27-2012, 09:13 PM
Mac, you aren't ADD by any chance. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif St.

09-28-2012, 06:57 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Says here (http://wiki.monticello.org/mediawiki/index.php/Wasting_the_labours_of_the_people) that's a misquote.

Close enough to the main meaning, but why is the 'scholarship' of the conservatives, particularly about the founders, so faulty at times? </div></div>

It's a shame you never read your own links.

09-28-2012, 09:07 AM
You are quite confused.

Now we have Obamacare offering free healthcare, beyond MC, for anyone willing to pay the penalty of not getting their own healthcare.

Exhibit one. This is incoherent. If someone pays the penalty under the individual mandate, they do not get coverage. They pay the penalty because they don't get coverage. Lacking the coverage, they are fined, and then still do not have coverage. I think you have this entirely backwards in your mind.

Also we have many many other ways the government abuses this money beyond SS and MC.

Yes, but not that add up to any real money, relatively speaking, except for the military spending, and Medicaid.

If you add up military spending, SS and MC and Medicaid, and then the interest on the debt, ALL the rest of the spending amounts to under 15%, most of which isn't for any social program at all. To a first degree of approximation, the government is just a military with insurance programs for the people (meaning the SS and MC costs).

People decry 'the growth of government' when it's really mainly the growth in the entitlements' enrollment rolls, and the increases in those costs for MC. Of course, if the retired population is doubling, from 40 million to 80 million, the costs of that are going to be increased, and there is simply no way around that.

The propagandists leave out that the 'growth of government' is due to the addition of 40 million elderly Americans to the rolls, which they paid into and which are popular programs, and PRETEND they can somehow offset the growth in those programs by cuts elsewhere. They cannot. The cost of government, and its share of the spending of the gdp, are inevitably going to rise, unless a bunch of the near-elderly or current elderly are killed off early.

09-28-2012, 09:10 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Says here (http://wiki.monticello.org/mediawiki/index.php/Wasting_the_labours_of_the_people) that's a misquote.

Close enough to the main meaning, but why is the 'scholarship' of the conservatives, particularly about the founders, so faulty at times? </div></div>

It's a shame you never read your own links. </div></div>

Could you be more vague, please? LOL!

While it's true I used 'resources' instead of 'labour,' LATER in the thread, that wasn't the case as of what you cited from what I posted.

Makes nearly no difference in understanding the points, actually, as you may realize upon reflection.

09-28-2012, 10:37 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Exhibit one. This is incoherent. If someone pays the penalty under the individual mandate, they do not get coverage.</div></div>LOL, you are deranged. What do you think, they are going to sit in their house and die? No, they are going to walk into an emergency room and get free healthcare. It happens every day and it is not going away because Obama thinks they would have preferred to pay for the healthcare themselves when clearly they never wanted to in the first place.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, but not that add up to any real money</div></div>LOL, you are clearly out of your mind. If the Reps said they were cutting MC funding by 10% the left would act like the sky is falling, would begin laying people off and sending Kevorkian to the old folks home to help ease the pressure of those medical fees.


09-28-2012, 02:45 PM
Still haven't read it I see.

09-28-2012, 05:18 PM
It's very brief, and I've now read it 3 times to see what you are ineptly referencing.

I still haven't found it, and of course, you are quite wrong that I haven't read it.

Please help this poor pilgrim, on my way to bettering my understanding, to have a slight idea to what you refer.

09-28-2012, 05:26 PM
LOL, you are deranged. What do you think, they are going to sit in their house and die? No, they are going to walk into an emergency room and get free healthcare.

Which has nothing to do with Obama or ACA, as that occurs right now. Difference? That person would have paid the penalty, at least. Far more likely, as the lower income people have the cost of an exchange-provided plan partially or fully subsidized, they'll take the INSURANCE that provides, once it becomes available and affordable.

Caught in your error, you cover by blaming Obama for the status quo ante? That's desperate.

ME: Yes, but not that add up to any real money

Meaning for fraud for items outside the biggies, SS and MC, with, as I said, exception for the other large spending areas, the military and Medicaid.

09-28-2012, 06:48 PM
If you had actually read it you would realize the quote is pulled from a miserable original.

09-28-2012, 07:14 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Caught in your error, you cover by blaming Obama for the status quo ante? That's desperate.</div></div>LOL, thank you for proving I am correct. You are deranged. You are the one that said if they don't pay they don't have coverage. I pose a situation where you are incorrect and you try to act like you never said what you said. What we have is people who cannot afford the insurance, who now have paid the penalty and still have to sit in an emergency room for their care. How did Obama help them in this situation? This is exactly the type of situation that Obama was supposed to be helping however instead people are getting the same level of treatment yet paying a penalty for it.


09-28-2012, 08:02 PM
I took your inartful phrasing at face value, and so mistook what you were attempting to state.

It's impossible to be too poor to pay for ACA, as then the entire premium is subsidized. In those cases, paying the penalty would cost more than the subsidized to zero premium cost.

I am happy to try to explain as much as you need for you to comprehend these things, and I try to do so in a form to provide a model of polite discourse. It's clearly not working in this case, and as you continue to wear on my last nerve, increasingly unworthy of my time.

09-28-2012, 08:06 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you had actually read it you would realize the quote is pulled from a miserable original. </div></div>

The actual quote is provided, with referenced source, as:

"if we can but prevent the government from wasting the labours of the people, under the pretence of taking care of them, they must become happy." - Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Cooper, 29 November 1802[1]

Not the quote in the OP above, which this reference states is one of two versions of misquoting it.

I think you misread it, and told me I was misreading it. Priceless.

Gayle in MD
10-01-2012, 12:21 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: llotter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/229336_10151044285731837_1486060825_n.jpg </div></div>

"When economic power became concentrated in a few hands, then political power flowed to those possessors and away from the citizens, ultimately resulting in an oligarchy or tyranny." John Adams

Thomas Jefferson. “Progressive taxes are required to prevent a permanent rich aristocracy that then buys government and ends democracy as happened in England ” ..

This happened under the robber barons which repub policies return us to, and not unlike now.

"As riches increase and accumulate in few hands . . . the tendency of things will be to depart from the republican standard." Alexander Hamilton

Ab Lincoln: "I hope we shall crush ... in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country".

Justice Brandies: “ You can have great wealth or democracy, you can have one or the other,but not both” .

This was written during the robber baron experience, where they bought government and virtually ended real democracy. A period repub policies bring us back to that already failed.

The founders were Locke liberals fighting the Burke conservative 1000 richest families of the British Empire. Our founding fathers were secular progressives. The Conservatives , called Tories were on the side of King George and Aristocracy. Some things never change.