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Soflasnapper
09-30-2012, 06:57 PM
The usual suspect crazed <s>Islamacists</s> Orthodox Russian Church adherents and Roman Catholics in Italy and France.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Rock opera Jesus Christ Superstar has been pulled before a performance in the Russian city of Rostov-on-Don following complaints from Orthodox Christians. The believers claim the production is in breach of a controversial new religious offense law.... “In our view the image of Christ presented in the opera is incorrect. If they want to stage a play about the life of the Savior, they should first clear it with the local church authority,” one of the offended believers told Life News....

The religious offense law was drafted in the wake of performance group Pussy Riot’s “punk prayer” in Moscow’s central cathedral earlier this year.... The bill calls for up to three years’ imprisonment for disrespecting religious sensibilities and is currently being discussed in the Duma.

The city’s administration has instructed the local theater to stop selling tickets for the production....

Despite the apparent success of the current attempts to ban the play, the local church does not actually appear to support the complaints....

Though the story says that the claim is that the production violates a new law, at this point it looks like the law is only under consideration (as the story itself acknowledges); the precise basis for the city’s order is thus not clear. The BBC reports that the play had been performed in Russia for decades. </div></div>

Top of the blog as of this cite (http://www.volokh.com/)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style='font-size: 14pt'>French court bans Christ advert</span>

Advertisement for French designers Marithe and Francois Girbaud
<span style='font-size: 14pt'>The controversial poster has already been banned in Italy</span>
France's Catholic Church has won a court injunction to ban a clothing advertisement based on Leonardo da Vinci's Christ's Last Supper.

The display was ruled "a gratuitous and aggressive act of intrusion on people's innermost beliefs", by a judge.

The church objected to the female version of the fresco, which includes a female Christ, used by clothing designers Marithe et Francois Girbaud.

The authorities in the Italian city of Milan banned the poster last month.

The French judge in the case ordered that all posters on display should be taken down within three days.

The association which represented the church was also awarded costs.

The designers are said to be planning an appeal, saying they did not intend to offend anyone with the campaign.

'Trivialising'

Italy's advertising watchdog said the ad's use of Christian symbols including a dove and a chalice recalled the foundations of the faith and would offend the sensitivity of part of the population.

The Catholic Church used a similar argument against the advert, which also shows two of the apostles embracing a bare-chested man in jeans.

"When you trivialise the founding acts of a religion, when you touch on sacred things, you create an unbearable moral violence which is a danger to our children," said lawyer Thierry Massis.

"Tomorrow, Christ on the cross will be selling socks."

But lawyers for the fashion house said banning the image would amount to censorship. </div></div>

The latter occurred in 2005, but adds to the point.

The point being that Moslems are not alone in pushing for censorship of speech or artistic expression based upon religious sensitivities.

eg8r
09-30-2012, 07:11 PM
OMG, muslims kill 3000 Americans in one morning, attack our embassies and ships all over the world and what gets your pink panties in a wad....A russian city that decided they did not want a play to go in their city because they disagree with how the play portrays their saviour. LOL, you might have been on to something if they went and killed the author of the play or maybe even the set designer but other than that, this is the most pathetic thing I have seen you post.

It is quite sad you would compare this to what the muslims have done to Americans.

eg8r

hondo
09-30-2012, 09:34 PM
There's a big difference. Have Chritians threatened to kill anybody over the alledged blasphemy?

hondo
09-30-2012, 09:39 PM
Actually,I agree with much of what you have said. If you had just stated what you believed and skipped the insults, it would have been a great post.

eg8r
09-30-2012, 09:57 PM
If your opinion carried any weight I would have still posted in my own style. If you don't like it don't read it.

eg8r

hondo
09-30-2012, 10:05 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If your opinion carried any weight I would have still posted in my own style. If you don't like it don't read it.

eg8r </div></div>

Poor Ed, can't even comprehend when someone agrees with you.
Always bitter. Always angry. What a sad , lonely, miserable existence you must live.
Read 1Corintians:chapter 13 and compare it with your life.

hondo
09-30-2012, 10:08 PM
1 Corinthians 13

New International Version (NIV)


13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Do you see any contradiction between this and the way you talk to us on here?

LWW
10-01-2012, 02:57 AM
Yet you give the haters here a pass on far worse ... including yourself.

Shall I pull up some more of past words of Christian love ... or will you you heed your own advice after some personal reflection?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why, johnny, why?
I'm not your sweetheart, weasel.
You are the scum of the earth.
The S**T-stain on roberts' undies.
You are the gas in dub's ass.
Why, johnny, why?
I'm not your sweetheart.
You are the trash in the trailer.
You are the decaying skunk in the middle of the road.
You are a bottom feeder.
I'm not your sweetheart, weasel.
You are Satan's spawn posing as a Christian.
You are Judas Iscariot.
You are a sewer rat.
I'm not your sweetheart, weasel.
You are the crap caked on my commode.
You were never in the service.
You are not black.
You are not a man of God.
You are the lowest of the low. Even lower than bobroberts.
I asm not your sweetheart, weasel.
You are possibly a closet homo-sexual.
You are not a man.
You are a coward who hides behind the anonymity of the keyboard.
I am not your sweetheart, weasel.

Have a nice night and may God bless you.
I am praying for your eternal soul.
I don't hate your soul, weasel.
I just loathe the scumbag inhabiting your current incarnation. </div></div>

hondo
10-01-2012, 07:13 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yet you give the haters here a pass on far worse ... including yourself.

Shall I pull up some more of past words of Christian love ... or will you you heed your own advice after some personal reflection?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why, johnny, why?
I'm not your sweetheart, weasel.
You are the scum of the earth.
The S**T-stain on roberts' undies.
You are the gas in dub's ass.
Why, johnny, why?
I'm not your sweetheart.
You are the trash in the trailer.
You are the decaying skunk in the middle of the road.
You are a bottom feeder.
I'm not your sweetheart, weasel.
You are Satan's spawn posing as a Christian.
You are Judas Iscariot.
You are a sewer rat.
I'm not your sweetheart, weasel.
You are the crap caked on my commode.
You were never in the service.
You are not black.
You are not a man of God.
You are the lowest of the low. Even lower than bobroberts.
I asm not your sweetheart, weasel.
You are possibly a closet homo-sexual.
You are not a man.
You are a coward who hides behind the anonymity of the keyboard.
I am not your sweetheart, weasel.

Have a nice night and may God bless you.
I am praying for your eternal soul.
I don't hate your soul, weasel.
I just loathe the scumbag inhabiting your current incarnation. </div></div>
</div></div>

There is no forgiveness in you. At least you've given us a break with your hateful johnny d. incarnation.

hondo
10-01-2012, 07:15 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yet you give the haters here a pass on far worse ... including yourself.

Shall I pull up some more of past words of Christian love ... or will you you heed your own advice after some personal reflection?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why, johnny, why?
I'm not your sweetheart, weasel.
You are the scum of the earth.
The S**T-stain on roberts' undies.
You are the gas in dub's ass.
Why, johnny, why?
I'm not your sweetheart.
You are the trash in the trailer.
You are the decaying skunk in the middle of the road.
You are a bottom feeder.
I'm not your sweetheart, weasel.
You are Satan's spawn posing as a Christian.
You are Judas Iscariot.
You are a sewer rat.
I'm not your sweetheart, weasel.
You are the crap caked on my commode.
You were never in the service.
You are not black.
You are not a man of God.
You are the lowest of the low. Even lower than bobroberts.
I asm not your sweetheart, weasel.
You are possibly a closet homo-sexual.
You are not a man.
You are a coward who hides behind the anonymity of the keyboard.
I am not your sweetheart, weasel.

Have a nice night and may God bless you.
I am praying for your eternal soul.
I don't hate your soul, weasel.
I just loathe the scumbag inhabiting your current incarnation. </div></div>
</div></div>

Even though that's a nasty post that I'm sorry I posted, you have to admire the accuracy of what I said about you? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Gayle in MD
10-01-2012, 07:39 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The usual suspect crazed <s>Islamacists</s> Orthodox Russian Church adherents and Roman Catholics in Italy and France.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Rock opera Jesus Christ Superstar has been pulled before a performance in the Russian city of Rostov-on-Don following complaints from Orthodox Christians. The believers claim the production is in breach of a controversial new religious offense law.... “In our view the image of Christ presented in the opera is incorrect. If they want to stage a play about the life of the Savior, they should first clear it with the local church authority,” one of the offended believers told Life News....

The religious offense law was drafted in the wake of performance group Pussy Riot’s “punk prayer” in Moscow’s central cathedral earlier this year.... The bill calls for up to three years’ imprisonment for disrespecting religious sensibilities and is currently being discussed in the Duma.

The city’s administration has instructed the local theater to stop selling tickets for the production....

Despite the apparent success of the current attempts to ban the play, the local church does not actually appear to support the complaints....

Though the story says that the claim is that the production violates a new law, at this point it looks like the law is only under consideration (as the story itself acknowledges); the precise basis for the city’s order is thus not clear. The BBC reports that the play had been performed in Russia for decades. </div></div>

Top of the blog as of this cite (http://www.volokh.com/)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style='font-size: 14pt'>French court bans Christ advert</span>

Advertisement for French designers Marithe and Francois Girbaud
<span style='font-size: 14pt'>The controversial poster has already been banned in Italy</span>
France's Catholic Church has won a court injunction to ban a clothing advertisement based on Leonardo da Vinci's Christ's Last Supper.

The display was ruled "a gratuitous and aggressive act of intrusion on people's innermost beliefs", by a judge.

The church objected to the female version of the fresco, which includes a female Christ, used by clothing designers Marithe et Francois Girbaud.

The authorities in the Italian city of Milan banned the poster last month.

The French judge in the case ordered that all posters on display should be taken down within three days.

The association which represented the church was also awarded costs.

The designers are said to be planning an appeal, saying they did not intend to offend anyone with the campaign.

'Trivialising'

Italy's advertising watchdog said the ad's use of Christian symbols including a dove and a chalice recalled the foundations of the faith and would offend the sensitivity of part of the population.

The Catholic Church used a similar argument against the advert, which also shows two of the apostles embracing a bare-chested man in jeans.

"When you trivialise the founding acts of a religion, when you touch on sacred things, you create an unbearable moral violence which is a danger to our children," said lawyer Thierry Massis.

"Tomorrow, Christ on the cross will be selling socks."

But lawyers for the fashion house said banning the image would amount to censorship. </div></div>

The latter occurred in 2005, but adds to the point.

The point being that Moslems are not alone in pushing for censorship of speech or artistic expression based upon religious sensitivities. </div></div>

That is all very true.

How many times have we seen so called, "Christians" killing AND abusing others in our country and using God, as their excuse.

Why are children so often their targets?

BTW, California just banned the latest newewest form of "Christian" Child Abuse, and outlawed Gay Therapy, which is child abuse.

Repulsive Bachmann and her disgusting husband, among those who have made money by using this form of psychological and physical child abuse against Gay youngsters.

I do not understand how any self-proclaimed Christian can deny the many human abuses proven to exist, and continuing to this day, and a part of ALL Organized Religions.

From a psychological point of view, using fear and shame in order to exploit others, particularly children, who are so vulnerable and impressionable, IS in and of itself, severe mental and emotional abuse.

To spread guilt, and condemnation, is not a form of love.

G.

Soflasnapper
10-01-2012, 08:58 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There's a big difference. Have Chritians threatened to kill anybody over the alledged blasphemy? </div></div>

They didn't have to because they had access to the force of the state.

What force, you may ask? Wasn't it peaceful, and just a resort to the authorities?

That's true, but how would a court order be enforced, if the order were ignored? They'd send armed men and arrest those scofflaws, who'd be harmed if they resisted.

There is reason to believe that some of the varieties of Christians so offended would indeed have taken to violence had they not gotten their way. There are plenty of violent Christians willing to commit violence, including murder of innocents. Some call them martyrs and true heroes, even.

Gayle in MD
10-01-2012, 09:13 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There's a big difference. Have Chritians threatened to kill anybody over the alledged blasphemy? </div></div>

They didn't have to because they had access to the force of the state.

What force, you may ask? Wasn't it peaceful, and just a resort to the authorities?

That's true, but how would a court order be enforced, if the order were ignored? They'd send armed men and arrest those scofflaws, who'd be harmed if they resisted.

There is reason to believe that some of the varieties of Christians so offended would indeed have taken to violence had they not gotten their way. There are plenty of violent Christians willing to commit violence, including murder of innocents. Some call them martyrs and true heroes, even. </div></div>

The Boy Scouts Of America, are currently releasing thousands of names of sexual offenders going back to 1955, through 1985, formerly kept under wraps.

I don't have to wait for the release to know the vast majority of those sexual offenders, will prove to be members of "Christian" religious organizations.

Additionally, Governor Jerry Brown, has made the "Christian" organizations which have been abusing Gay Youngsters for decades, with their sicentifically unproven "Pray away the Gay" camps, calling them what they are, RADICAL, and outlawing them in his state.

People need to wake up to our own radical "Christian" terrorists, right here in America, and stop thinking that it doesn't exist.

G.

hondo
10-01-2012, 12:06 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The usual suspect crazed <s>Islamacists</s> Orthodox Russian Church adherents and Roman Catholics in Italy and France.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Rock opera Jesus Christ Superstar has been pulled before a performance in the Russian city of Rostov-on-Don following complaints from Orthodox Christians. The believers claim the production is in breach of a controversial new religious offense law.... “In our view the image of Christ presented in the opera is incorrect. If they want to stage a play about the life of the Savior, they should first clear it with the local church authority,” one of the offended believers told Life News....

The religious offense law was drafted in the wake of performance group Pussy Riot’s “punk prayer” in Moscow’s central cathedral earlier this year.... The bill calls for up to three years’ imprisonment for disrespecting religious sensibilities and is currently being discussed in the Duma.

The city’s administration has instructed the local theater to stop selling tickets for the production....

Despite the apparent success of the current attempts to ban the play, the local church does not actually appear to support the complaints....

Though the story says that the claim is that the production violates a new law, at this point it looks like the law is only under consideration (as the story itself acknowledges); the precise basis for the city’s order is thus not clear. The BBC reports that the play had been performed in Russia for decades. </div></div>

Top of the blog as of this cite (http://www.volokh.com/)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style='font-size: 14pt'>French court bans Christ advert</span>

Advertisement for French designers Marithe and Francois Girbaud
<span style='font-size: 14pt'>The controversial poster has already been banned in Italy</span>
France's Catholic Church has won a court injunction to ban a clothing advertisement based on Leonardo da Vinci's Christ's Last Supper.

The display was ruled "a gratuitous and aggressive act of intrusion on people's innermost beliefs", by a judge.

The church objected to the female version of the fresco, which includes a female Christ, used by clothing designers Marithe et Francois Girbaud.

The authorities in the Italian city of Milan banned the poster last month.

The French judge in the case ordered that all posters on display should be taken down within three days.

The association which represented the church was also awarded costs.

The designers are said to be planning an appeal, saying they did not intend to offend anyone with the campaign.

'Trivialising'

Italy's advertising watchdog said the ad's use of Christian symbols including a dove and a chalice recalled the foundations of the faith and would offend the sensitivity of part of the population.

The Catholic Church used a similar argument against the advert, which also shows two of the apostles embracing a bare-chested man in jeans.

"When you trivialise the founding acts of a religion, when you touch on sacred things, you create an unbearable moral violence which is a danger to our children," said lawyer Thierry Massis.

"Tomorrow, Christ on the cross will be selling socks."

But lawyers for the fashion house said banning the image would amount to censorship. </div></div>

The latter occurred in 2005, but adds to the point.

The point being that Moslems are not alone in pushing for censorship of speech or artistic expression based upon religious sensitivities. </div></div>

That is all very true.

How many times have we seen so called, "Christians" killing AND abusing others in our country and using God, as their excuse.



G.

</div></div>

If you are talking about war, I agree. Otherwise, as Eg said, any comparison with Muslim extremists is totally inaccurate.

hondo
10-01-2012, 12:16 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There's a big difference. Have Chritians threatened to kill anybody over the alledged blasphemy? </div></div>

They didn't have to because they had access to the force of the state.

What force, you may ask? Wasn't it peaceful, and just a resort to the authorities?

That's true, but how would a court order be enforced, if the order were ignored? They'd send armed men and arrest those scofflaws, who'd be harmed if they resisted.

There is reason to believe that some of the varieties of Christians so offended would indeed have taken to violence had they not gotten their way. There are plenty of violent Christians willing to commit violence, including murder of innocents. Some call them martyrs and true heroes, even. </div></div>

Everything you said was true. No argument. But I still stand by my statement. I'm usually on your side butto not make a distinction between the tactics of Christian zealots vs. Muslim zealots in the 21st Century is dead wrong.
We cannot let a fringe element of Islam bully and terrorize and blackmail the world.
What's the answer? Hell if I know but I am becoming less and less tolerant of all Muslims.
I know they're scared shitless to make a stand. I get it. But the time has come that they must if the rest of the world can begin to view them as anything less than sympathetic to the terrorists, dammit!

Gayle in MD
10-01-2012, 12:39 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The usual suspect crazed <s>Islamacists</s> Orthodox Russian Church adherents and Roman Catholics in Italy and France.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Rock opera Jesus Christ Superstar has been pulled before a performance in the Russian city of Rostov-on-Don following complaints from Orthodox Christians. The believers claim the production is in breach of a controversial new religious offense law.... “In our view the image of Christ presented in the opera is incorrect. If they want to stage a play about the life of the Savior, they should first clear it with the local church authority,” one of the offended believers told Life News....

The religious offense law was drafted in the wake of performance group Pussy Riot’s “punk prayer” in Moscow’s central cathedral earlier this year.... The bill calls for up to three years’ imprisonment for disrespecting religious sensibilities and is currently being discussed in the Duma.

The city’s administration has instructed the local theater to stop selling tickets for the production....

Despite the apparent success of the current attempts to ban the play, the local church does not actually appear to support the complaints....

Though the story says that the claim is that the production violates a new law, at this point it looks like the law is only under consideration (as the story itself acknowledges); the precise basis for the city’s order is thus not clear. The BBC reports that the play had been performed in Russia for decades. </div></div>

Top of the blog as of this cite (http://www.volokh.com/)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style='font-size: 14pt'>French court bans Christ advert</span>

Advertisement for French designers Marithe and Francois Girbaud
<span style='font-size: 14pt'>The controversial poster has already been banned in Italy</span>
France's Catholic Church has won a court injunction to ban a clothing advertisement based on Leonardo da Vinci's Christ's Last Supper.

The display was ruled "a gratuitous and aggressive act of intrusion on people's innermost beliefs", by a judge.

The church objected to the female version of the fresco, which includes a female Christ, used by clothing designers Marithe et Francois Girbaud.

The authorities in the Italian city of Milan banned the poster last month.

The French judge in the case ordered that all posters on display should be taken down within three days.

The association which represented the church was also awarded costs.

The designers are said to be planning an appeal, saying they did not intend to offend anyone with the campaign.

'Trivialising'

Italy's advertising watchdog said the ad's use of Christian symbols including a dove and a chalice recalled the foundations of the faith and would offend the sensitivity of part of the population.

The Catholic Church used a similar argument against the advert, which also shows two of the apostles embracing a bare-chested man in jeans.

"When you trivialise the founding acts of a religion, when you touch on sacred things, you create an unbearable moral violence which is a danger to our children," said lawyer Thierry Massis.

"Tomorrow, Christ on the cross will be selling socks."

But lawyers for the fashion house said banning the image would amount to censorship. </div></div>

The latter occurred in 2005, but adds to the point.

The point being that Moslems are not alone in pushing for censorship of speech or artistic expression based upon religious sensitivities. </div></div>

That is all very true.

How many times have we seen so called, "Christians" killing AND abusing others in our country and using God, as their excuse.



G.

</div></div>

If you are talking about war, I agree. Otherwise, as Eg said, any comparison with Muslim extremists is totally inaccurate. </div></div>

I am talking about ANY religious organization which seeks to dictate to others, about anything, according to their own individual dogma, or religious views.

Religion has absolutely NO place in government! NONE!


If you had to count up the killings by Christians, through history, and by Muslims, through history, which one would come out on top?

Unlike Egh8tr, who found fault in killing bin Laden, I see religious radicalism as a danger, wherever and whenever it exists, either in the Catholic Church, Protestant church, or the Mormon Mosque, IOW, ANY church.

One cannot discriminate agsint one, more than the other, when none of them has the humility to live and let live, and all of them have a history of killing!

George Bush said God told him to go into Iraq, and kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

Bin Laden said his God led him.

I am sick and tired of EVERYBODY's GODS TELLING THEM TO KILL!




Organized religion is the enemy of rational thinking, IMO.

I don't even attempt to try to say which is the worst, religious irrationality is the danger, wherever and whenever it exists.

Religious ideology should be kept private, not paraded around, exploited as an excuse for killing, or forced upon others, which ALL organized religions try to do.

I find it repulsive, regardless of which religion one is identifying, one is just as bad as the next one, IMO.

G.

Soflasnapper
10-01-2012, 01:05 PM
Agree with all of that, except this:

Bin Laden said his God led him.

Bin Laden explained that his religion and in his opinion, God's will, forbids the taking of innocent lives, women and children, and that any such act was not creditable to anyone performing such slaughter. (paraphrasing) You may not have heard of him saying that, because it was in his DENIAL of his involvement, which was not given airplay or prominent coverage in the west for some reason. (Hmmm, why would that be???)

Killing soldiers is different, and one needs no religion to tell you to do that or not.

eg8r
10-01-2012, 01:37 PM
LOL, you cannot comprehend that my post was in response to you have something to say about my posting style and not the content. Nevermind loser, you will never get it.

eg8r

Soflasnapper
10-01-2012, 05:46 PM
Here's the SECOND DENIAL, on the 28th. First was on the 16th.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Bin Laden says in an interview, “I have already said that I am not involved in the September 11 attacks in the United States (see September 16, 2001). <span style='font-size: 14pt'>As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other human beings as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of battle.</span>… The United States should try to trace the perpetrators of these attacks within itself; the people who are a part of the US system but are dissenting against it. Or those who are working for some other system; persons who want to make the present century as a century of conflict between Islam and Christianity so that their own civilization, nation, country, or ideology can survive. They may be anyone, from Russia to Israel and from India to Serbia. In the US itself, there are dozens of well-organized and well-equipped groups capable of causing large-scale destruction. Then you cannot forget the American Jews, who have been annoyed with President Bush ever since the Florida elections and who want to avenge him.… Then there are intelligence agencies in the US, which require billions of dollars worth of funds from Congress and the government every year.… They needed an enemy.… <span style='font-size: 14pt'>Is it not that there exists a government within the government in the United Sates? That secret government must be asked who carried out the attacks</span>.” [Daily Ummat (Karachi), 9/28/2001] </div></div>

Secret government in the government? Colin Powell said there was a hidden cabal who had taken control of US foreign policy, operating out of the VP's offices.

This part of his denial, along with him denying it as well, of course, is why this has been hidden from the American people. I guess not 10% of the Americans know of this quote. We know about the fake fat Osama tape, where he supposedly confesses, but actually doesn't.

Qtec
10-01-2012, 06:53 PM
No surprise here.

If you rhink about it. There has been very little about this is the MSM.

I doubt 1% of of Americans can tell one bombers name.

Who was responsible for the Anthrax attacks? Can ANYONE here name the guy they pinned it on?
The only chemical attack on the USA?

Also never mentioned on the Liberal MSM.

I have read about 20 book's worth of material on the run up to 9/11 and none of it makes sense.

Q

eg8r
10-01-2012, 07:22 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I doubt 1% of of Americans can tell one bombers name.</div></div>We do know they are muslim though.

eg8r

Qtec
10-01-2012, 07:47 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I doubt 1% of of Americans can tell one bombers name.</div></div>We do know they are muslim though.

eg8r </div></div>


indocrination...usable! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnlEkRGl81M)

Q....and they are Christians.....just like you?

hondo
10-01-2012, 08:36 PM
Agreed. But we know that God never told Bush anything. This was all about money and power.
The same is true in the ME.
The same is true in Ireland.
The same was true in Yugoslavia.

I just hope that when we criticise Christians, we are not using that as an excuse to say we are no better than Muslim terrorists.
The fact that so many Americans deplored Bush's God told me bullshit and spoke out against it without fear of being murdered for our opinions illustrates a clear difference between us and them.
And, no, Gayle, I'm not turning into a neo-con. I'm just fed up with a comparatively small group bullying and terrorizing the world.

hondo
10-01-2012, 08:39 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Agree with all of that, except this:

Bin Laden said his God led him.

Bin Laden explained that his religion and in his opinion, God's will, forbids the taking of innocent lives, women and children, and that any such act was not creditable to anyone performing such slaughter. (paraphrasing) You may not have heard of him saying that, because it was in his DENIAL of his involvement, which was not given airplay or prominent coverage in the west for some reason. (Hmmm, why would that be???)

Killing soldiers is different, and one needs no religion to tell you to do that or not. </div></div>

So, do you think Bin Laden lied or do you think he was a patsy set up by the American government?

hondo
10-01-2012, 08:40 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LOL, you cannot comprehend that my post was in response to you have something to say about my posting style and not the content. Nevermind loser, you will never get it.

eg8r </div></div>

Exhibit 175.

1 Corinthians 13

New International Version (NIV)


13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

hondo
10-01-2012, 08:43 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's the SECOND DENIAL, on the 28th. First was on the 16th.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Bin Laden says in an interview, “I have already said that I am not involved in the September 11 attacks in the United States (see September 16, 2001). <span style='font-size: 14pt'>As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other human beings as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of battle.</span>… The United States should try to trace the perpetrators of these attacks within itself; the people who are a part of the US system but are dissenting against it. Or those who are working for some other system; persons who want to make the present century as a century of conflict between Islam and Christianity so that their own civilization, nation, country, or ideology can survive. They may be anyone, from Russia to Israel and from India to Serbia. In the US itself, there are dozens of well-organized and well-equipped groups capable of causing large-scale destruction. Then you cannot forget the American Jews, who have been annoyed with President Bush ever since the Florida elections and who want to avenge him.… Then there are intelligence agencies in the US, which require billions of dollars worth of funds from Congress and the government every year.… They needed an enemy.… <span style='font-size: 14pt'>Is it not that there exists a government within the government in the United Sates? That secret government must be asked who carried out the attacks</span>.” [Daily Ummat (Karachi), 9/28/2001] </div></div>

Secret government in the government? Colin Powell said there was a hidden cabal who had taken control of US foreign policy, operating out of the VP's offices.

This part of his denial, along with him denying it as well, of course, is why this has been hidden from the American people. I guess not 10% of the Americans know of this quote. We know about the fake fat Osama tape, where he supposedly confesses, but actually doesn't. </div></div>

Nothing would surprise me anymore.

eg8r
10-01-2012, 08:54 PM
What a fantastic video. That woman is spot on. Imagine that, muslims giving their kids grenades and bomb vests and you get pissy because this woman wants to arm Christian children with a bible.

As far as Christians just like me, you are correct, I do go to a Penecostal church and speaking in tongues is practiced. I have grown up in this church nearly my entire life. While speaking in tongues doesn't happen anywhere near as often as it did when I was younger it still happens. We have childrens church and yes we do have Sunday School. We do start training children from an early age. We do have Bible summer camps and we do arm our children with a Bible. I think that is a lot safer than giving them a gun or a bomb vest but then again, you always were a terrorist apologist.

eg8r

hondo
10-01-2012, 09:54 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What a fantastic video. That woman is spot on. Imagine that, muslims giving their kids grenades and bomb vests and you get pissy because this woman wants to arm Christian children with a bible.

As far as Christians just like me, you are correct, I do go to a Penecostal church and speaking in tongues is practiced. I have grown up in this church nearly my entire life. While speaking in tongues doesn't happen anywhere near as often as it did when I was younger it still happens. We have childrens church and yes we do have Sunday School. We do start training children from an early age. We do have Bible summer camps and we do arm our children with a Bible. I think that is a lot safer than giving them a gun or a bomb vest but then again, you always were a terrorist apologist.

eg8r </div></div>

I'll pass on any church that condones their members calling fellow souls from God stupid idiots and hillbilly hicks and old broads.

This is why I have stopped with the personal attacks and have tried to get you and Larry to do the same.
I am truly ashamed of some of the things I have said on here and AZ in the past.
I am not judging your faith, Ed. You may truly believe you are a follower of God but we are judged by our works. I have failed miserably in the past and you are failing miserably now.

I imagine Gayle shakes her head and wonders what kind of religion teaches their members to call souls old broad, stupid idiot, and hillbilly hick?
Also, you seemed clueless about the true meaning of the New Covenant a while back. I tried to get that other "devout Christian" johnnyd/Larry Wilson to explain it to you since you hold me in so much contempt but he/they ran for the hills.

You may very well go to church but you obviously aren't paying any attention or meditating about what you hear.
You certainly ignore 1Corinthians 13 and Hebrews 13.

hondo
10-01-2012, 10:02 PM
"We do start training children from an early age."

"Okay, children, remember, if someone disagrees with you, do what Elder Ed does. Tell them they are nobodies; you don't care what they believe, and call them old broads, stupid idiots and hillbilly hicks. We call that talking in tounges."

And don't forget to praise Jesus.

Qtec
10-02-2012, 06:43 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What a fantastic video. That woman is spot on. Imagine that, muslims giving their kids grenades and bomb vests and you get pissy because this woman wants to arm Christian children with a bible.

As far as Christians just like me, you are correct, I do go to a Penecostal church and speaking in tongues is practiced. I have grown up in this church nearly my entire life. While speaking in tongues doesn't happen anywhere near as often as it did when I was younger it still happens. We have childrens church and yes we do have Sunday School. We do start training children from an early age. We do have Bible summer camps and we do arm our children with a Bible. I think that is a lot safer than giving them a gun or a bomb vest but then again, you always were a terrorist apologist.

eg8r </div></div>

Believe what you want to, I'm fine with that.
To each his own. Live and let live, that's my philosophy.

But...

What I see in that video is brainwashing and indoctrination. [ It borders on child abuse IMO.]

Its the very same thing you are complaining about when others do it.

BTW, at the 2.20 mark she mentions Palestine.!!!!! So it does exist!

She also fails to mention that the Palestinian people are under siege by Israel!

Q

Soflasnapper
10-02-2012, 10:36 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No surprise here.

If you rhink about it. There has been very little about this is the MSM.

I doubt 1% of of Americans can tell one bombers name.

Who was responsible for the Anthrax attacks? Can ANYONE here name the guy they pinned it on?
The only chemical attack on the USA?

Also never mentioned on the Liberal MSM.

I have read about 20 book's worth of material on the run up to 9/11 and none of it makes sense.

Q

</div></div>

Quite true. The biggest remaining open mystery story in modern history, upon which the course of the world was changed, and we are still lacking a credible explanation, as even the 9/11 Commission co-chairs have complained.

Re: anthrax, I remember Stephen Hatfield or something like that. Not sure if he's the guy who sued and received a monetary settlement (so it wasn't him) or not. Then there's another guy who is conveniently dead. It was obviously that other guy who signed into access to those materials after he was no longer employed there, but that cannot be discussed for obvious reasons.

The point on that one was that it was intended to be seen as a jihadi attack, 'Death to the US!' 'Death to Israel,' etc., written in the messages, but instead was an inside job out of top level military labs (hardly a bastion of jihadi penetration or influence). People really ought to think slightly about what that means.

Soflasnapper
10-02-2012, 10:45 AM
So, do you think Bin Laden lied or do you think he was a patsy set up by the American government?

He took on the role of Emmanuel Goldstein (from the book 1984), a demonized but fictionalized super villain.

Same with the term al Qaeda. One of the key clues was that uniquely, and for years, unlike any other supposed terror organization, nobody from that org took credit for the several attacks that were later attributed to them. The point of terror is to take the credit and make your political demands.

Later, after the meme had set in, and as independent terror gangs took on the name, some terror acts got claimed by those parties. But Khobar Towers, the torpedoed or bombed US warship Cole? The first WTC bombing? Nope.

Who got the job to rebuild Khobar Towers? The Bin Laden family construction company.

Gayle in MD
10-02-2012, 10:50 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's the SECOND DENIAL, on the 28th. First was on the 16th.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Bin Laden says in an interview, “I have already said that I am not involved in the September 11 attacks in the United States (see September 16, 2001). <span style='font-size: 14pt'>As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other human beings as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of battle.</span>… The United States should try to trace the perpetrators of these attacks within itself; the people who are a part of the US system but are dissenting against it. Or those who are working for some other system; persons who want to make the present century as a century of conflict between Islam and Christianity so that their own civilization, nation, country, or ideology can survive. They may be anyone, from Russia to Israel and from India to Serbia. In the US itself, there are dozens of well-organized and well-equipped groups capable of causing large-scale destruction. Then you cannot forget the American Jews, who have been annoyed with President Bush ever since the Florida elections and who want to avenge him.… Then there are intelligence agencies in the US, which require billions of dollars worth of funds from Congress and the government every year.… They needed an enemy.… <span style='font-size: 14pt'>Is it not that there exists a government within the government in the United Sates? That secret government must be asked who carried out the attacks</span>.” [Daily Ummat (Karachi), 9/28/2001] </div></div>

Secret government in the government? Colin Powell said there was a hidden cabal who had taken control of US foreign policy, operating out of the VP's offices.

This part of his denial, along with him denying it as well, of course, is why this has been hidden from the American people. I guess not 10% of the Americans know of this quote. We know about the fake fat Osama tape, where he supposedly confesses, but actually doesn't. </div></div>

Just WOW! I cannot believe that as much as I read, and research, that I have never seen that quote of bin Laden's.

Nevertheless, bin Laden has killed thousands of innocent people, or claimed it, hasn't he?

As far as conspiracy theories go, I do read about them, many of them I know are fake, for sure, like the conspiracy theories about the plane that crashed into the Pentagon, because I know people who were there, and saw the plane as it crossed over the highway.

As for the Anthrax, I have always thought the Bush Administration could well have been behind that.

And 9/11? I can't say I am sure about it. There is nothing I would put past Dick Cheney and the Neocons.

But even as much as I wouldn't trust any of them as far as I would throw them, it's hard for me to wrap my mind around the idea that even a pigs like Cheney, and the American Enterprise Institute NEOCONS, would take part in planning the horror of 9/11.

I must say, though, that since they have released more information about the run up to 9/11, and Bush' cover up for the Saudi's, I have begun to wonder again about all of it.

I still think President Kennedy's assasination was an inside job, and Robert Kennedy's, as well.

I have even wondered about John Jr.'s death, since some were saying right around that time, that he was beginning to consider a political career.

Nothing surprises me anymore.

I'd be interested in any books on the subject of bin Laden, that you would recommend. I've already read Tripple Cross and the other one, name of it won't come to me right now, but it was considered the most authoratative one on bin Laden, al Qaeda, and 9/11. Get back to you on that one, it's upstairs, lol.

I don't remember seeing that quote, ever. Blows me away.

G.

Gayle in MD
10-02-2012, 10:56 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What a fantastic video. That woman is spot on. Imagine that, muslims giving their kids grenades and bomb vests and you get pissy because this woman wants to arm Christian children with a bible.

As far as Christians just like me, you are correct, I do go to a Penecostal church and speaking in tongues is practiced. I have grown up in this church nearly my entire life. While speaking in tongues doesn't happen anywhere near as often as it did when I was younger it still happens. We have childrens church and yes we do have Sunday School. We do start training children from an early age. We do have Bible summer camps and we do arm our children with a Bible. I think that is a lot safer than giving them a gun or a bomb vest but then again, you always were a terrorist apologist.

eg8r </div></div>

Believe what you want to, I'm fine with that.
To each his own. Live and let live, that's my philosophy.

But...

What I see in that video is brainwashing and indoctrination. [ It borders on child abuse IMO.]

Its the very same thing you are complaining about when others do it.

BTW, at the 2.20 mark she mentions Palestine.!!!!! So it does exist!

She also fails to mention that the Palestinian people are under siege by Israel!

Q </div></div>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What I see in that video is brainwashing and indoctrination. [ It borders on child abuse IMO.]

</div></div>

I agree! And, OMG! Speaking in tongues?! Pure Insanity, IMO!

That splains everything!

"Lucy I'm home!" /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

Sid_Vicious
10-02-2012, 11:09 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gayle in MD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What a fantastic video. That woman is spot on. Imagine that, muslims giving their kids grenades and bomb vests and you get pissy because this woman wants to arm Christian children with a bible.

As far as Christians just like me, you are correct, I do go to a Penecostal church and speaking in tongues is practiced. I have grown up in this church nearly my entire life. While speaking in tongues doesn't happen anywhere near as often as it did when I was younger it still happens. We have childrens church and yes we do have Sunday School. We do start training children from an early age. We do have Bible summer camps and we do arm our children with a Bible. I think that is a lot safer than giving them a gun or a bomb vest but then again, you always were a terrorist apologist.

eg8r </div></div>

Believe what you want to, I'm fine with that.
To each his own. Live and let live, that's my philosophy.

But...

What I see in that video is brainwashing and indoctrination. [ It borders on child abuse IMO.]

Its the very same thing you are complaining about when others do it.

BTW, at the 2.20 mark she mentions Palestine.!!!!! So it does exist!

She also fails to mention that the Palestinian people are under siege by Israel!

Q </div></div>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What I see in that video is brainwashing and indoctrination. [ It borders on child abuse IMO.]

</div></div>

I agree! And, OMG! Speaking in tongues?! Pure Insanity, IMO!

That splains everything!

"Lucy I'm home!" /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif </div></div>

"I agree! And, OMG! Speaking in tongues?! Pure Insanity, IMO!"

Have you ever been in a church where they spoke in toungues? I did once, back in the 70s, on a wild road trip with a lot of drinking,,,,meeting a chick on the CB radio(remember that era?) My journey, and my traveling/boozing buddy for 3 days, were both whacked out when people went nuts, me moreso though, but amiable.

Y'all shoulda been there when that song Jack answered too was sung...you coulda nearly heard a pin drop. They asked, and we answered, where was the error? It was in the song book.

Cool part was that when my friend selected a Baptist song to sing when the congregation was asked for a suggestion, following my friend Jack's comforting the girl next to him crying...we were escorted out. Sweet part...the two girls came and left with us. Ol' Grandpa in his overalls lost that war. It was a fun ending to a wild trip for these two alkys. The point is, "Religions can be really nut jobs."

Jack comforting the crying girl and then being tossed out told me tons about that tongue speaking thing. I sure liked the girls coming outside after that episode ;-) OK I was bad in my day. sid

Soflasnapper
10-02-2012, 11:14 AM
Have you ever been in a church where they spoke in toungues?

In my middle school years, I attended an Assemblies of God (Pentacostal) parochial school, where the TEACHERS spoke in tongues during daytime prayer time. And every Friday we had an altar call for new conversions to Christ. Not exactly understanding how this worked, I'd go up every time.

I have no problem with it, as the various gifts of the Holy Spirit are Biblically described and so, well founded.

Soflasnapper
10-02-2012, 11:21 AM
Just WOW! I cannot believe that as much as I read, and research, that I have never seen that quote of bin Laden's.

Doesn't that tell you a lot you need to know? That it's been such a hidden quote, I mean? It's not like they couldn't alibi it away on bad character grounds-- he even LIED about it!!!! I think it was his alternate explanation as to who to look for as the perps that they didn't want aired, as it conflicted with their preferred story line. The fictional story line.

Nevertheless, bin Laden has killed thousands of innocent people, or claimed it, hasn't he?

No, not so far as I know. Unless you describe military people that way. Probably not even them (remembering that the USS Cole and the Khobar Towers attacks were not claimed by him, and only later turned into supposed early examples of al Qaeda attacks).

Regarding Triple Cross, it explains how the main trainer of what later became known as al Qaeda was Ali Muhamed, an FBI asset, a US Army Special Forces member and trainer, and then was obviously protected from arrest for a long time, and then given preferential treatment when he was brought in. The claim of Triple Cross is that we thought he was our double agent, on our side, although pretending to be a jihadi and sympathizer and collaborator. And then really turned out to be a triple agent, against us. Under the circumstances, when you really look into his protections from high levels, no, what he did was as our double agent, not as a betrayal of us, IMO.

Sid_Vicious
10-02-2012, 11:22 AM
"I have no problem with it, as the various gifts of the Holy Spirit are Biblically described and so, well founded."

Hollerin' outloud and weeping is just plain nuts.

Gayle in MD
10-02-2012, 11:34 AM
LOL, I'm with you, Martin. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Like Q., though, I believe to each his own, as long as they leave me and mine alone, but in my world, that sort of stuff is nuts!

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

G.

Soflasnapper
10-02-2012, 11:37 AM
I know, it is indecorous, surprising, and perhaps scary.

Still, there is a difference between Spirit-filled religious experience and just going through the motions of religiosity in your dress up clothes on one day a week.

What IS the way to react to being directly and personally touched by the Holy Spirit? Profound awe, a feeling that your heart may burst, and yes, tears of joy, all sound in the ball park to me.

Mainline churches destroy the experiencing of God's Spirit to control people by claiming they have the franchise on that, and you need to go through them (thinking historically of the Catholic Church, but really, most of them).

This was determined millenia ago, when the Gnostics, who emphasized the direct experience of God, although maybe 30% of the early church and numbering many of the early church saints in their ranks, were anathemized and suppressed.

Why? To say the people needed the priesthood for access to God, and even to the Bible, which they kept in a language inaccessible to all but themselves.

Gayle in MD
10-02-2012, 12:29 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just WOW! I cannot believe that as much as I read, and research, that I have never seen that quote of bin Laden's.

Doesn't that tell you a lot you need to know? That it's been such a hidden quote, I mean? It's not like they couldn't alibi it away on bad character grounds-- he even LIED about it!!!! I think it was his alternate explanation as to who to look for as the perps that they didn't want aired, as it conflicted with their preferred story line. The fictional story line.

Nevertheless, bin Laden has killed thousands of innocent people, or claimed it, hasn't he?

No, not so far as I know. Unless you describe military people that way. Probably not even them (remembering that the USS Cole and the Khobar Towers attacks were not claimed by him, and only later turned into supposed early examples of al Qaeda attacks).

Regarding Triple Cross, it explains how the main trainer of what later became known as al Qaeda was Ali Muhamed, an FBI asset, a US Army Special Forces member and trainer, and then was obviously protected from arrest for a long time, and then given preferential treatment when he was brought in. The claim of Triple Cross is that we thought he was our double agent, on our side, although pretending to be a jihadi and sympathizer and collaborator. And then really turned out to be a triple agent, against us. Under the circumstances, when you really look into his protections from high levels, no, what he did was as our double agent, not as a betrayal of us, IMO. </div></div>


Yes, I recall that, and found that book spellbinding.


The other book, The Looming Tower takes somewhat of a different approach.

Both are good, but they do not have the exact same approach on all of the causes of, and the birth of our issues and dangers with radical Muslim ideology.

One thing that they do have in common, is the misogyny, and their love/hate views of American women, for those who experienced living in America, as students.

Also, I notice we seldom hear of the beginning of our modern problems, with these radicals, under the Reagan Administration, and how his failure to respond to our Marines being slaughtered in their sleep, in Beruit, gave them their very first strong signal of American Weakness.

We NEVER hear about that, either, even though it is addressed in both books.

Sometimes I feel so exhausted from trying to decern for myself, what the truth is, and where to place most of the blame for what seems now to suggest unending violence, and no positive opportunities for any successful policies to end it all.

That's why I often feel so encouraged about the growing moderate movement which I see happening now, in the so called, Arab Spring, around the world. Far more Musllims taking a stand against the radical elements among them than ever before, in my lifetime, and more of them are genuinely taking our side against these horrors, than ever before.

Which leads me to address why I worry about the growing religious misogyny in this country, since it seems to go hand in hand with all religious radicalism, including situations of violence, always accompanied by religious Misogyny, and I think perhaps you might agree, that there are shades of misogyny in all religions, Islam, and Christianity, and all of the others, as well.

I seem to grow more against organized religion, the longer I live, not less against it. And the link between the Republican Party, and the growing assault by Republicans against the Separation Of Church and State, is very alarming to me, for the obvious reasons.

G.

Qtec
10-02-2012, 12:32 PM
Adults have free will, kids don't.

Q

Gayle in MD
10-02-2012, 12:35 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Qtec</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Adults have free will, kids don't.

Q </div></div>

Precisely how I feel about it, Q.

G.

Soflasnapper
10-02-2012, 12:54 PM
Which leads me to address why I worry about the growing religious misogyny in this country, since it seems to go hand in hand with all religious radicalism, including situations of violence, always accompanied by religious Misogyny, and I think perhaps you might agree, that there are shades of misogyny in all religions, Islam, and Christianity, and all of the others, as well.

That is true. After the original Goddess/Fertility Cult religion(s) were supplanted by patriarchal forms, the newer forms were always male-dominated, male-oriented, and considered females dangerous, icky (oh, those lady parts! teeth in there, doncha know? LOL!), the origin of Original Sin (shoulda hung out with Steve instead of Eve, who knew?), and etc.

Interestingly, the Romans were pantheistic, as we remember, and were so open minded they had a temple to the unknown God, whoever it is they didn't know about, to also worship Him/Her, just in case.

However, they couldn't abide the fertility cult remaindermans, and ruthlessly suppressed them, despite otherwise holding a somewhat ecumenical view.

Gayle in MD
10-02-2012, 01:04 PM
Most people have no clue how many women are still being raped, abused and slaughtered every day, around the world, and right here in this country, as well.

The shame is that so few seem to admit to, or understand the connection between violent misogyny, and religious misogyny.

That is the real problem, and it is a growing problem, here, and now, as well as in those far away countries which we pretend to be so much worse than ours, in that regard.

G.

hondo
10-02-2012, 07:27 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Soflasnapper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, do you think Bin Laden lied or do you think he was a patsy set up by the American government?

He took on the role of Emmanuel Goldstein (from the book 1984), a demonized but fictionalized super villain.

Same with the term al Qaeda. One of the key clues was that uniquely, and for years, unlike any other supposed terror organization, nobody from that org took credit for the several attacks that were later attributed to them. The point of terror is to take the credit and make your political demands.

Later, after the meme had set in, and as independent terror gangs took on the name, some terror acts got claimed by those parties. But Khobar Towers, the torpedoed or bombed US warship Cole? The first WTC bombing? Nope.

Who got the job to rebuild Khobar Towers? The Bin Laden family construction company. </div></div>

Interesting theory. If you are right things are even worse than I thought.

LWW
10-03-2012, 03:40 AM
Watching these haters hate is more entertaining tan a series of WWE interviews.

hondo
10-03-2012, 06:39 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Watching these haters hate is more entertaining tan a series of WWE interviews. </div></div>

Glad you enjoy Ed and lotter's posts.
I knew you love your own.

eg8r
10-03-2012, 09:13 AM
LOL, do you think about me all the time? That is sweet but every time you open the hole in your face you don't need to prove it by referring to me. I have said I think sofla's view on this is ridiculous and at least Christians are not killing other people for what they think or say.

eg8r

Soflasnapper
10-03-2012, 09:23 AM
There was terror killing for decades with regard to the Northern Ireland/IRA situation. That would be Catholics killing Protestants and vice versa.

And you're right, but it doesn't help your point, that they didn't do so over thinking or saying things. Just because, was why. Not even something someone said or thought, just because the Catholics and Protestants were against each other on principle, I suppose.

No particular claim of any such cause of action, which I think is worse, because at least if insensitive commentary caused the violence, that could be stopped by reasonable people. But there was no such triggering cause, just the power struggle, centered on which religious group would be in control.

Just as a blast from the past, sports commentators here have resurrected an old line from past U of Miami/Notre Dame football meetings: the Catholics vs. the Convicts. LOL! Not really so true anymore about U of M.

hondo
10-03-2012, 09:31 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LOL, do you think about me all the time? That is sweet but every time you open the hole in your face you don't need to prove it by referring to me. I have said I think sofla's view on this is ridiculous and at least Christians are not killing other people for what they think or say.

eg8r </div></div>

Jesus loves you.

eg8r
10-03-2012, 09:47 AM
He sure does and he also know you don't know when to shut up.

eg8r

eg8r
10-03-2012, 09:51 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There was terror killing for decades with regard to the Northern Ireland/IRA situation. That would be Catholics killing Protestants and vice versa.

And you're right, but it doesn't help your point, that they didn't do so over thinking or saying things.</div></div>Great so your point is moot. It is the muslims right now that are intolerant and killing people for their thoughts and what they say. It is muslims who are flying planes into buildings, trying to blow up our ships, pirating goods from ships, and raiding our embassies and killing our ambassadors. The absolute VAST majority of religious murder around the world right now is muslims.

eg8r

Soflasnapper
10-03-2012, 11:07 AM
I think the death toll against Muslims by Christians is more than the reverse. It's alibied as not due to religious differences (which might be true), but then you have President Bush stating our Afghan/Iraq misadventures were a 'crusade.'

1) Universally acknowledged is the 650,000+ death toll among Iraqi children due to the sanctions, and the prior war's targeting of water purification plants that were not allowed to be rebuilt or supplied with chlorine for disinfecting the water. These children died horrible and totally preventible deaths from dehydration, dysentery and cholera.

2) At least 100,000, and as many as 1 million, dead in Iraq over that war over non-existent WMD capabilities.

These are among the exact grievances cited by bin Laden-- the west causing the huge death tolls among Moslems-- as the nature of his causes to fight the west. We here don't see that as a true reason, we deny these facts, and then pretend it's about religious differences.

As to actual religious complaints or cultural sensitivities and attempts at stifling free speech and free expression, we have that all over western democracies. People don't have to riot because they have the force of the state enforcing these laws.


The following found here, from Andrew Sullivan's site. (http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2012/10/freedom-to-hate.html) (See the original there which includes hyperlinks to the various pieces cited).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> William Saletan calls out the West on its hypocrisy:

From Pakistan to Iran to Saudi Arabia to Egypt to Nigeria to the United Kingdom, Muslims scoff at our rhetoric about free speech. They point to European laws against questioning the Holocaust.... Hate speech laws go further. Germany punishes anyone found guilty of "insulting" or "defaming segments of the population." The Netherlands bans anything that "verbally or in writing or image, deliberately offends a group of people because of their race, their religion or beliefs, their hetero- or homosexual orientation or their physical, psychological or mental handicap." It’s illegal to "insult" such a group in France, to "defame" them in Portugal, to "degrade" them in Denmark, or to "expresses contempt" for them in Sweden. In Switzerland, it’s illegal to "demean" them even with a "gesture." Canada punishes anyone who "willfully promotes hatred." The United Kingdom outlaws "insulting words or behavior" that arouse "racial hatred." Romania forbids the possession of xenophobic "symbols."

He concludes:

Islamic governments, angered by an anti-Muslim video that provoked protests and riots in their countries, are demanding to know why insulting the Prophet Mohammed is free speech but vilifying Jews and denying the Holocaust isn’t. And we don’t have a good answer.

Well, those of us who live in a country with a First Amendment have a genuine response. But the double standard in Europe and Canada is de trop. Razib Khan pushes back:

Muslims who point to Western hypocrisy have a point. I agree with this argument without reservation. But, I do want to reiterate the putative targets of offense are illustrative of a divergence of values in and of themselves. Though I wouldn’t criticize non-Western Muslims for pointing out the existence of laws banning denial of the Holocaust, I do have issues when Western Muslims bring this point up even innocuously. The reason is simple: the Holocaust concerns the systematic state-sponsored murder of millions of human beings. This is a far more serious issue than the reputation of the prophet Muhammad.

Not for them it isn't. Hussein Ibish's view:

No good can come from trying to use state power to suppress offensive expression. Those who politicize such efforts do the most harm, because their double standards are evident and motivations obvious. Muslims who would restrict speech to "protect Islam" have no greater allies than Jews who would do so to "protect Israel."
</div></div>

eg8r
10-03-2012, 11:19 AM
Again, it is still for the vast majority of the time muslims who are killing people. I don't think I read anyone in this thread disagreeing that all groups are intolerant to a point. The difference that you continue to ignore is that only the muslims are killing people due to their own intolerance.

eg8r

hondo
10-03-2012, 01:53 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He sure does and he also know you don't know when to shut up.

eg8r </div></div>

Have a wonderful day but please stop shadowposting me. Thaks, Ed.

hondo
10-03-2012, 01:55 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There was terror killing for decades with regard to the Northern Ireland/IRA situation. That would be Catholics killing Protestants and vice versa.

And you're right, but it doesn't help your point, that they didn't do so over thinking or saying things.</div></div>Great so your point is moot. It is the muslims right now that are intolerant and killing people for their thoughts and what they say. It is muslims who are flying planes into buildings, trying to blow up our ships, pirating goods from ships, and raiding our embassies and killing our ambassadors. The absolute VAST majority of religious murder around the world right now is muslims.

eg8r </div></div>

I started to mention Africa but I noticed you said around the world so I have to agree.

hondo
10-03-2012, 01:57 PM
You certainly make an excellent point. It is difficult to sort out the truth.

hondo
10-03-2012, 01:59 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eg8r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Again, it is still for the vast majority of the time muslims who are killing people. I don't think I read anyone in this thread disagreeing that all groups are intolerant to a point. The difference that you continue to ignore is that only the muslims are killing people due to their own intolerance.

eg8r </div></div>

Again true. We kill them for financial reasons. If there was nothing to be gained by killing them, we probably wouldn't.

Soflasnapper
10-03-2012, 02:29 PM
By far the majority of people killed by Moslems are other Moslems. The Iran/Iraq war facilitated and suborned by the US killed over 1 million dead. Saddam killed his own domestic religious fundamentalists in the six figures, Assad's father killed them to the tune of 50,000 or more, and King Hussein of Jordan fought and killed the PLO forces with great loss of life.

Recently, a large proportion of the Iraqi deaths were internecine killings of Shi'i'a against Sunni and reprisal killings. It's also how the supposed al Qaeda in Iraq was suppressed-- by Moslems there, aggravated by how many Moslems those outsiders were killing.

Obviously, those were not killings of infidels, but fellow Moslems, with considerable support from the west and America for much of this slaughter.

Such numbers pale in comparison to the several millions around the world that Americans have accomplished, in service of America's God, money and power.

When those who've been killed in such large numbers by America protest and return death with death, we claim that they are savages with superstitious religious views as their cause. That is false.

The wild protests in the street of Cairo, outside our embassy? 500 people, or 300 people, depending upon who you listen to. In a city of millions of Moslems, showing you how much Moslems do NOT take to the streets in violence.

eg8r
10-03-2012, 08:29 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">By far the majority of people killed by Moslems are other Moslems. </div></div>Are you stating this as some kind of defense for Mulsims killing? All it does is solidify what I already stated. Maybe you just want to hear yourself say it.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The wild protests in the street of Cairo, outside our embassy? 500 people, or 300 people, depending upon who you listen to. In a city of millions of Moslems, showing you how much Moslems do NOT take to the streets in violence. </div></div>However, in the end, it was not a Christian killing a non-Christian. It was however, yet another example of Muslims killing other people.

eg8r

Soflasnapper
10-04-2012, 09:44 AM
One key question is whether Moslem violence targets infidels. Apparently, as Moslems kill many Moslems, that is not exactly the case.

Did bin Laden explain his alleged sponsorship of violence was religiously based, as part of the world-wide Caliphate he wanted imposed upon the world?

That is the theory of Moslem v. infidel violence, and there is really no evidence for that as any major part of this.

Rather, the west has sponsored the various autocratic dictators governing the Moslem world since WW I (cf: Lawrence of Arabia), and those people rise up against the west for arranging their suppression all these decades.