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bluewolf
10-10-2002, 06:34 AM
Post deleted by bluewolf

10-10-2002, 06:57 AM
With all due respect, I don't understand this at all.

bluewolf
10-10-2002, 07:08 AM
Post deleted by bluewolf

Fred Agnir
10-10-2002, 07:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: bluewolf:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote: anonymouse:</font><hr>With all due respect, I don't understand this at all. <hr></blockquote>

which part? the way i said it or why balls arent going in?
<hr></blockquote>

I don't think the majority of posters describe the speed of their hit as "medium, 3-rail."

Sometimes, BW, balls don't go in on the break. The pyramid rack of 8-ball is not conducive to balls going straight in. The best chance is for the head ball into the side. The rest is more up to the rack, balls, and table.

There are those that will report making a ball on every break or some such high percentage. That's just a bunch of bull. Sure, some tournaments, I'll make a ball on the break a high percentage. Other tournament, it's a low percentage. Table conditions matter. The overall percentage is probably 50% or less for most real play (not fantasy selective memory) on various conditions (not always breaking at home).

After all of that, hit 'em as hard as you can while maintaining control. That's the standard fare answer.

Fred

eg8r
10-10-2002, 07:45 AM
I will also add, that some times you need to break from a different spot. Once you are able to consistently hit the rack solidly, then you should maybe begin thinking about making a ball. Hitting the pack solidly is most important to me.

If I notice that I am not making a ball after a couple breaks, I usually will break from the other side of the table. If that does not help, I will try moving the cueball farther out (I usually break from one side of the break box) towards the rail.

eg8r

phil in sofla
10-10-2002, 01:59 PM
If you are just using an 'arm' breaking motion, you can get a harder effective break using the same arm speed, but with either a wrist action or a little stepping action off the back foot at impact, or both.

Cueless Joey
10-10-2002, 02:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: phil in sofla:</font><hr> If you are just using an 'arm' breaking motion, you can get a harder effective break using the same arm speed, but with either a wrist action or a little stepping action off the back foot at impact, or both.

<hr></blockquote>
Yup. I like a 4-5 rail speed though. A lot of forearm motion with loose wrist. Never use the shoulder as it just screws the whole breaking snap. Half a tip below center is ok too.

Sid_Vicious
10-10-2002, 02:41 PM
Two variable(assuming you really are getting a solid hit.) 1. A proper rack without "the slug" built in. 2. Finding the right breaking speed for the table conditions at that particular time.

The worst thing people try to do(IMPHO) is to murder the balls, thinking the mere force will direct balls into holes. If you have a favorite region of the table to break from, and you are not getting balls down, then try varying the speed, predominetely slower. You'll see many slower breaks from people sinking 2-3 balls at times. So, as you gear up for the final plunge at the balls(and notice I didn't say lunge, cuz I ain't in favor of lots of body motion) back off 10% on your normal speed. Try a marginal bit less the next attempt...somewhere in there you will find balls hitting pockets...sid

10-10-2002, 02:44 PM
I disagree with "never use the shoulder". Many great breakers do. If done properly, you can still maintain a straight cue path. But doing it properly can be difficult to learn and maintain. Francisco Bustamante is a great example of someone who puts his shoulder into the break properly. But then, he is a great example of someone who does EVERYTHING on the break properly.

10-10-2002, 02:46 PM
Hi Bluewolf.

I have a few questions/requests for you, to help me understand how to best help you.

1: How long have you been playing?
2: Please describe your breaking technique to me.
3: What is the reason for using the current breaking technique? Meaning, is it just what you have always naturally done? Did you try something else, unsuccessfully? Did someone teach you to use this particular technique?

Mike

Karatemom
10-10-2002, 05:24 PM
From one beginner to another, I can tell you what I do, I think. I break from two different spots, depending on what game I'm playing 8 or 9 ball. Usually I will pocket at least one ball at either game. However, if I see that I can't get anything working, I'll move the cb over an inch or two to the right (by preference), until I find that spot.

Also, I have to check the rack. Sometimes the head ball will take a small roll and make my opponent re-rack. Sometimes, too, the rack is high or low from the spot and you have to adjust for that.

I break on the table, not from the rail, as it seems that I have more control that way. I'm only 95 lbs soaking wet, so I know it is not muscle that gets those balls dropping. I believe it is timing. I can not explain it, but I just know when to let it go and it feels right.

Don't know if this helps any, but it is the way CC taught me and it works for me.

Heide ~ the 95 lb powerhouse, hahahahahaha

bluewolf
10-10-2002, 11:52 PM
Post deleted by bluewolf

phil in sofla
10-11-2002, 12:45 AM
I think it's illegal now to break from directly on the headspot. I think you have to have the whole cue ball behind the line now (both BCA and Texas Express rules), although the old rules allowed the center of the ball to be as far up as on the line and still be considered 'in' the kitchen. Now it's at least an inch and a quarter back of that.

Well, whether that's right or wrong, you might benefit from going slightly to either side of that exactly center line an inch or three and see if that pockets balls for you on the break. That's the classic advice, as has already been mentioned on the thread.

10-11-2002, 01:44 PM
Playing seriously for 2 or 3 months? My advice would be to not worry too much about the break right now. At this point, keep breaking as you are, and focus on other areas of the game. Such as proper alignment and technique, shotmaking (strongly related to alignment and technique), shot selection, cueball control, and safety play.

Moving forward in your playing career, the break is something that will have to be worked on in more detail later. But I would not be worried about it right now.

Now if you let me go off on a little bit of a tangent here...

This is something I have had arguments with Scott Lee about on this board before. I agree with Scott on just about everything else, except for the break.

Except for when using the Sardo rack and playing 9-ball, there are NO famous pro players that break the way you describe. NONE. Every single major name in this game puts their body into the break in some way.

The idea of just using your arm and shooting the break as a normal stroke is something that was created for taking the frustration of the break out of the game for D and C players. It makes it easy and simple to approach the break. But statements like "Players of any ability will benefit by breaking this way" could not be further from the truth. Do you think Francisco Bustamante would benefit by abandoning the best break in the world and instead stroking it like a normal shot? Or how about Chin Shun-Yang? Or Earl Strickland? Or Fong-Pang Chao? Or Shin-Mei Liu? Or Ralf Soquet? Or Johnny Archer? Or Alex Pagulayan? Or Mika Immonen? Or ANY famous pro player? EXCEPT WHEN USING THE SARDO RACK TO PLAY 9-BALL, the best players in the world, without exception, put their body into the break in some way.

I have no problem at all with beginning and intermediate players being taught to just stroke the break like a normal shot. But anyone who aspires to be a world-class player is going to have to move beyond that someday, and learn to break the balls hard while still maintaining control of the cueball.

bluewolf
10-11-2002, 03:10 PM
Post deleted by bluewolf

10-11-2002, 03:28 PM
Keep in mind that you have likely had little if any exposure thus far to world-class Pool playing. Expect for possibly some ESPN matches, which are usually sub-par, for various reasons. What may seem world-class and pro level to you now might not be. I know I felt that way when I started playing. I would see "good" players in the local Pool hall and think that they were incredible, and darned near ready to turn pro! Now, years later, I realize only one or two of them were even better than weak B players. In fact, I have by now surpassed nearly all of those players I am referring to, and I know I am just a good B player with a day job.

So you have to ask yourself a question...why do all the pro's break the same way? Sure, the individual techniques are different. But the concept of using the body in the break is done by all of them. Why? Why would they all do that? Give this some thought...

10-11-2002, 03:29 PM

10-11-2002, 03:38 PM
I agree with you. For now, it works great for you. What I am referring to is the kind of break one needs to have if they want to become a professional player someday.

You've never seen a harder break? How many pro's have you seen play in person? How many have you played yourself? I am having a hard time believing that someone that only swings their forearm breaks as hard as Francisco Bustamante, Chin-Shun Yang, Fong-Pang Chao, Earl Strickland, Johnny Archer, an endless list of other pro's, and an endless list of very good amateur players with great breaks. Sorry, but I've been around this game enough to know better.

A quick note: you referred to your arm going out sideways...if you watch the truly great breakers, you will see that most have their arms kept in close to the body as they break. That is one of the fundamentals of a good power-break.

And regarding the 9's on the break...did it go straight in the corner from the same side you were breaking from? If so, that's mostly a rack issue. You let me rack for myself, and I can make a lot of 9's on the break! And someone who doesn't know how to check racks will be none-the-wiser! /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Please note that I don't mean these posts to slam Scott. From what I can see, he seems to be a very nice guy and a very good instructor. I just have a disagreement on this one particular issue. And I have a disagreement on the "that's hard, so I'll just do something easier" approach to things in life. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

bluewolf
10-11-2002, 03:52 PM
Post deleted by bluewolf

10-11-2002, 04:22 PM
Bluewolf,

I used to be a martial arts instructor. I posted a couple of threads on the CCB long ago (it was so much info, I posted them in two parts) about generating power for the break. Search for them with the phrase "Generating power for the break", and specify a search period of "all posts". If you have trouble finding them, let me know and I can send them to you.

10-12-2002, 06:50 AM
Blue Wolf...

I agree with you on Scott Lee's break...You only have to use your arm and timing and aim and you can break as good as any pro...Check out Monica Webb's break...she uses only her arm and timing and no body thrusting and has one of the best breaks of the woman pros...

Uncle Ron in SC

10-13-2002, 07:22 AM
Why try to run when you are Christopher Reeve. For you making A ball is a major feat instead of making it on a break,makinging it on a kick,making it whatever!

bluewolf
10-13-2002, 07:42 AM
Post deleted by bluewolf

10-13-2002, 07:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: bluewolf:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: Anonymous:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; Why try to run when you are Christopher Reeve. For you making A ball is a major feat instead of making it on a break,makinging it on a kick,making it whatever! &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Appreciate your sentiments. Funny you brought up christopher reeve's name since i am currently undergoing neurological tests to rule out early stage parkinson''s or ms. but regardless of how all that comes out, i am determined to get good at pool.I just have to play more right brained since my eye focusing muscles for delicate contact points are somewhat weak.I just sink the same cut shot over and over until it is natural and I dont have to aim but just knock the ball in. I may improve more slowly than some this way, but afterall, the tortoise did beat the hare.

In league play, I sink 5-7 balls per game and when I get the eight or not I win or lose. I play a lot of safety, my innings are very high,even against a four, and it almost always comes down to the eight and maybe one other ball. So I think I am doiing pretty good, just not winning enough yet to go up to a 3.

thanks.

bw <hr></blockquote>

10-14-2002, 08:35 AM

griffith_d
10-14-2002, 05:32 PM
I know this sounds weird, but I used to play "Shorty" at Mo's in Kati(Houston, Texas). He was 5 foot nuthin' on a good day.

He would always play one handed and kicked most everyone in the place,..I mean some good players. If you ever saw him play with two hands, he had lost his confidence and then would lose.

He had a break (8 ball), very soft, where he would hit the back right corner ball(one-handed of course) and shoot it like he was cutting it into the left corner and I'll be damn if 9 out of 10 times the corner ball would hit off of the short rail behind the foot string and would come back down in the right corner behind the head string.

It was something to see

Griff

Rod
10-14-2002, 05:46 PM
Griff, that is 1 version of making a ball on a 14-1 break, but few will try.

TomBrooklyn
11-11-2002, 12:17 PM
Wow. I was catching up on some threads I hadn't read before and came accross this one. What kind of trick is this? Start a thread, get a dialog going, and then go back and delete all your posts? Huh? Is this a right brain or left brain idea?

=Tom=

bluewolf
11-11-2002, 12:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> Wow. I was catching up on some threads I hadn't read before and came accross this one. What kind of trick is this? Start a thread, get a dialog going, and then go back and delete all your posts? Huh? Is this a right brain or left brain idea?

=Tom= <hr></blockquote>

this thread was a month old.in my spasticity i must have deleted it.

bw

TomBrooklyn
11-11-2002, 12:26 PM
Your funny.

TomBrooklyn
03-28-2003, 08:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote whitewolf:</font><hr> After I could hit a 5 and 1/2 rail shot up and down the table with perfect accuracy <hr /></blockquote>WW, What constitutes doing this excercise successfully? Is this like hitting the cueball up the table and back with center ball with a successful result indicated by the ball coming back exactly on the same line, except it's going 5 1/2 table lengths on the same line?

Wally_in_Cincy
03-28-2003, 09:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote whitewolf:</font><hr> After I could hit a 5 and 1/2 rail shot up and down the table with perfect accuracy <hr /></blockquote>WW, What constitutes doing this excercise successfully? Is this like hitting the cueball up the table and back with center ball with a successful result indicated by the ball coming back exactly on the same line, except it's going 5 1/2 table lengths on the same line? <hr /></blockquote>

Yes. Actually on that shot the margin of error is about 3 ball widths on either side of the spot. If you can go 3 or more table lengths with minimal sideways movement of the CB, it means your stroke is straight.

When you break with a good stroke with no sidespin all the energy goes into the stack. That's what Scott Lee teaches.

Wally~~glad TB can't exhume "Who is the hottest WPBA Player?" thread /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

ceebee
03-28-2003, 12:16 PM
with all due respect, even the PROS don't do extremely well on the Break Shot... their game winning ability comes forth in their SHOT MAKING skills when WHITEY is hiding or WHITEY is in a tough position for the next shot to be made.

Don't believe me... set down &amp; map out the cue ball location after the break in a 11-10 match. The women actually make a ball &amp; control Whitey very well on the Break Shot. Corey &amp; Mika do very well too, with their soft-break.

Most days you are hitting the RACK well or.... you're NOT. Hitting the RACK with a good solid hit will do wonders for your Break Shot &amp; your game.

bluewolf
03-28-2003, 04:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote whitewolf:</font><hr> After I could hit a 5 and 1/2 rail shot up and down the table with perfect accuracy <hr /></blockquote>WW, What constitutes doing this excercise successfully? Is this like hitting the cueball up the table and back with center ball with a successful result indicated by the ball coming back exactly on the same line, except it's going 5 1/2 table lengths on the same line? <hr /></blockquote>

I apologize for quoting this whole thing. This was a quote by ww and Tom's response. ww almost never posts here but I can tell you where this comes from.

Last august ww and I took a lesson with scott lee. This does in fact involve sending the cb up and down the table. Scott said one rail was a soft hit, 2 rails the lag which is a resonably soft hit, 3 rails was medium speed and 4 rails was break speed.And this does mean keeping the cb going in a straight line. In other words, if a person could generate sufficient speed in their follow to send the cb up and down the table 4 lengths of the table, they could do a good break.

Four rails is what I can do now although last august could only do 3. ww could do 4 last summer and took it further working to get it to go even further. ww said he could get that cb to go 5 and 1/2 lengths of the table in a straight line at the time he posted this. He does have a very hard break.

With the 4 rail speed and 'when' I do my technique correctly I can split all of the balls, leave no clusters, send a few balls to the other end of the table and control the cb. This is good enough for me. ww though wanted to pot balls on all of his breaks,which he does a lot of the time, that is why he took it further, jmho.

Laura

wolfsburg2
03-30-2003, 07:43 AM
i am fairly new to competitive pool, and i still like a hard break. i am still the guy trying to murder the balls. i dont try for position on the break, i try to break the rack. i have a lot of body motion(i sway back and forth and use my entire body in my break). and i have gotten a couple of compliments on my breaking ability.

i break about 2-3 inches from the center table, and cue right at the line. this is how bob byrnes(sp) teaches to break. my body movement is something i have grown accustomed to. i used to hate to break, but now, i almost never miscue, and consistenlty get a good spread. and 1 of every 4 or 5 9ball breaks i will make 2-3 balls on the break.

bluewolf
03-30-2003, 10:46 AM
WOW. Sounds like charlie williams would be proud of you. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Laura