eg8r
10-17-2012, 08:55 AM
It looks like Obama lied and Romney told a lot of half truths.
ABC fact check (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/debate-fact-check-presidential-debate/story?id=17496703)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Romney and Arizona's Immigration Law
OBAMA: He called the Arizona law a model for the nation. ...
ROMNEY: I did not say that the Arizona law was a model for the nation in that aspect. I said that the E-Verify portion of the Arizona law, which is -- which is the portion of the law which says that employers could be able to determine whether someone is here illegally or not illegally, that that was a model for the nation...
Although media outlets and fact checkers have pointed out that Romney was talking about E-Verify, that hasn't stopped Democrats from repeating this talking point against him.
</div></div>Result...Obama lied.
Here is one that might startle the left, a Romney truth.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ROMNEY: Just going to make a point. Any investments I have over the last eight years have been managed by a blind trust. And I understand they do include investments outside the United States, including in -- in Chinese companies. Mr. President, have you looked at your pension? Have you looked at your pension? OBAMA: I've got to say... ROMNEY: Mr. President, have you looked at your pension? OBAMA: You know, I -- I don't look at my pension. It's not as big as yours so it doesn't take as long. ROMNEY: Well, let me give you some advice. OBAMA: I don't check it that often. ROMNEY: Let me give you some advice. Look at your pension. You also have investments in Chinese companies. You also have investments outside the United States. You also have investments through a Cayman's trust....
Under Agreements or Arrangements President Obama's Dec. 2011 Public Financial Disclosure Report for the Office of Government Ethics lists the General Assembly Defined Benefit Pension Plan as the only holding under this category. It says "no further contributions by former employer," funding began in 1997.
The pension is managed by the General Assembly Retirement System, State of Illinois.
The main site for the fund's reports is HERE
The FY 2013 First Quarter Purchase and Sales Report mentions holdings in Chinese companies among the pension fund's numerous investments.
The Romney campaign says the Obama Illinois Pension fund has numerous private equity investments, including one domiciled in the Cayman Islands, the Advent International Group VI-A.
An independent search for this fund turned up this filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission for an investment opportunity by this fund. It lists the Advent International GPE VI Limited Partnership as being organized in the Cayman Islands. Other filings only list this particular fund's Executive offices as being listed in Boston, Mass.
</div></div>
Romney and Obama half-truth
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OBAMA: The day after the (Benghazi) attack I stood in the Rose Garden and I told the American people and the world that we are going to find out exactly what happened. That this was an act of terror and I also said we are going to hunt down those who committed this crime.
ROMNEY: I think it's interesting that the President just said something which is that one the day after the attack, he went in the Rose garden and said this was an act of terror. (Obama nods) OBAMA (off-mike): That's what I said. ROMNEY: You said in the Rose Garden the day after the attack it was "an act of terror?" It was not a spontaneous demonstration. Obama: Please proceed. ROMNEY: Is that what you're saying? I want to make sure we get that for the record because it took the President 14 days before he called the attack in Benghazi an act of terror. OBAMA: Get the transcript. CROWLEY: He did in fact, sir
</div></div>Here is where this one gets interesting, yes there is proof that on THAT day Obama used the word terror. However what he did the following two weeks was a complete flip flop.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"No acts of terror will ever shake the resolve of this great nation, alter that character,...BUT - and there's a big but.
Romney is right in that administration officials continued to say the attack was spontaneous, and came from a protest and it was White House Press Secretary Jay Carney who said the president considered it a terror attack on Sept. 26, 14 days later...
"Is there any reason why the president did not - he was asked point-blank in 'The View' interview, is this a terrorist attack, yes or no? Is there any reason he didn't say 'yes'?"
</div></div>
More half truths that could be called lies or not careful enough explanation....<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ROMNEY: In the last four years, you cut permits and licenses on federal lands and federal waters in half. OBAMA: Not true Gov. Romney....
Permits in the FY2009-2011 dropped by 37 percent compared to FY2006-2008 Leases in FY2009-2011 dropped by 42 percent compared to FY2006-2008
Romney is basing his claim on the total number of acres leased - and there are 56 percent fewer acres leased...
ROMNEY: And production on government land is down by 14 percent and production on gas is down 9 percent.
Oil production on public lands did drop by 14 percent in 2011 and natural gas production did drop by 9 percent (according to the US Energy Information Agency). BUT - overall, oil production is actually up slightly from 2009 to 2011.
</div></div>
One we already know about, the deficit.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ROMNEY: We have his own record which is we have four consecutive years where he said he was running for office he would cut the deficit in half, instead he has doubled it...
PoitiFact points out the only way to get to doubling is to use a different starting point, which is what the Romney campaign does. His campaign compares the current deficit to the final fiscal 2008 deficit of $458.6 billion. But that does not include the Wall Street bailout, first enacted under President Bush, which added more than $700 billion.
One part though that the Romney claim is true. President Obama has not kept his promise to cut the deficit in half. </div></div>
Here is another Romney half-truth
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ROMNEY: I know he keeps saying, you want to x. Well, the president took Detroit bankrupt. You took General Motors bankrupt. You took Chrysler bankrupt. So when you say that I wanted to take the auto industry bankrupt, you actually did. And I think it's important to know that that was a process that was necessary to get those companies back on their feet, so they could start hiring more people. That was precisely what I recommended and ultimately what happened...
There are two assertions here: 1) That President Obama "took Detroit bankrupt;" and, 2) That the president did "precisely what I recommended."
On the first, Romney is right. Chrysler and General Motors did go through a pre-packaged Chapter 11 bankruptcy reorganization. On the second, he is wrong. The president's bailout included some $80 billion in public financing (the bailout in "auto bailout") to help Chrysler and GM to get through bankruptcy. Romney opposed direct public financing. This is a crucial distinction because most industry experts said there was no provide financing available.
</div></div>
Romney Half truth
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Romney said the unemployment rate now is 7.8 percent and the rate when Obama took office was 7.8 percent, but he argued the true rate is much higher today. "If you calculate if people dropped out of the work force would be 10 percent."
He is about half right. If the labor force participation rate was exactly what it was when Obama came into office the unemployment rate would be nearly 11 percent. But economists say that the labor force is shrinking not just because people are too discouraged to look for work, but also because there is a surge in baby boomers retiring and people are staying in school longer. Here are two examples of research on this:
1. According to research by Daniel Sullivan and his team at the Chicago Federal Reserve about half of the decline in the labor force since 2000 is because of an increase in the aging population. They that goes into this.
2. Mark Zandi of Moody's Analytics concurs. Through his research he has established that the labor force participation rate has fallen by approximately 2.5 percentage points since the Great Recession hit. Of this, 1.5 percentage points is due to demographics, including boomers who are retiring, and 1 percentage points is due to poor economy.
</div></div>
Romney truth
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ROMNEY: With half of college kids graduating this year, without a college - excuse me - without a job and without a college level job, that's just not acceptable."
But the key to the statement is "underemployed." The figure comes from a March analysis conducted for the AP by a Northeastern University professor.
From the AP report:
"About 1.5 million, or 53.6 percent, of bachelor's degree-holders under the age of 25 last year were jobless or underemployed, the highest share in at least 11 years.
</div></div>
What is important and often left out with these fact checks is how the result is explained. Many times Romney will say something and Obama and other lefties will call it a lie when in reality there is damaging truth but it is easier to just try and wash the entire statement away as a lie instead of admitting to the damaging part.
One example is Romney going too far when explaining the auto-industry bailout. Romney could have stopped when he said, "I know he keeps saying, you want to x. Well, the president took Detroit bankrupt. You took General Motors bankrupt. You took Chrysler bankrupt. So when you say that I wanted to take the auto industry bankrupt, you actually did. And I think it's important to know that that was a process that was necessary to get those companies back on their feet, so they could start hiring more people. " He could have left off, "That was precisely what I recommended and ultimately what happened." By leaving that last part off he would have been 100% correct.
I know it would not make strategic sense for Obama to admit anything Romney says is true. Kind of like it wouldn't make sense for him to agree his position as POTUS is the final stop and he is ultimately responsible. Instead this is an election year and he needs Hitlary to fall on his sword.
eg8r
ABC fact check (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/debate-fact-check-presidential-debate/story?id=17496703)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Romney and Arizona's Immigration Law
OBAMA: He called the Arizona law a model for the nation. ...
ROMNEY: I did not say that the Arizona law was a model for the nation in that aspect. I said that the E-Verify portion of the Arizona law, which is -- which is the portion of the law which says that employers could be able to determine whether someone is here illegally or not illegally, that that was a model for the nation...
Although media outlets and fact checkers have pointed out that Romney was talking about E-Verify, that hasn't stopped Democrats from repeating this talking point against him.
</div></div>Result...Obama lied.
Here is one that might startle the left, a Romney truth.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ROMNEY: Just going to make a point. Any investments I have over the last eight years have been managed by a blind trust. And I understand they do include investments outside the United States, including in -- in Chinese companies. Mr. President, have you looked at your pension? Have you looked at your pension? OBAMA: I've got to say... ROMNEY: Mr. President, have you looked at your pension? OBAMA: You know, I -- I don't look at my pension. It's not as big as yours so it doesn't take as long. ROMNEY: Well, let me give you some advice. OBAMA: I don't check it that often. ROMNEY: Let me give you some advice. Look at your pension. You also have investments in Chinese companies. You also have investments outside the United States. You also have investments through a Cayman's trust....
Under Agreements or Arrangements President Obama's Dec. 2011 Public Financial Disclosure Report for the Office of Government Ethics lists the General Assembly Defined Benefit Pension Plan as the only holding under this category. It says "no further contributions by former employer," funding began in 1997.
The pension is managed by the General Assembly Retirement System, State of Illinois.
The main site for the fund's reports is HERE
The FY 2013 First Quarter Purchase and Sales Report mentions holdings in Chinese companies among the pension fund's numerous investments.
The Romney campaign says the Obama Illinois Pension fund has numerous private equity investments, including one domiciled in the Cayman Islands, the Advent International Group VI-A.
An independent search for this fund turned up this filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission for an investment opportunity by this fund. It lists the Advent International GPE VI Limited Partnership as being organized in the Cayman Islands. Other filings only list this particular fund's Executive offices as being listed in Boston, Mass.
</div></div>
Romney and Obama half-truth
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OBAMA: The day after the (Benghazi) attack I stood in the Rose Garden and I told the American people and the world that we are going to find out exactly what happened. That this was an act of terror and I also said we are going to hunt down those who committed this crime.
ROMNEY: I think it's interesting that the President just said something which is that one the day after the attack, he went in the Rose garden and said this was an act of terror. (Obama nods) OBAMA (off-mike): That's what I said. ROMNEY: You said in the Rose Garden the day after the attack it was "an act of terror?" It was not a spontaneous demonstration. Obama: Please proceed. ROMNEY: Is that what you're saying? I want to make sure we get that for the record because it took the President 14 days before he called the attack in Benghazi an act of terror. OBAMA: Get the transcript. CROWLEY: He did in fact, sir
</div></div>Here is where this one gets interesting, yes there is proof that on THAT day Obama used the word terror. However what he did the following two weeks was a complete flip flop.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"No acts of terror will ever shake the resolve of this great nation, alter that character,...BUT - and there's a big but.
Romney is right in that administration officials continued to say the attack was spontaneous, and came from a protest and it was White House Press Secretary Jay Carney who said the president considered it a terror attack on Sept. 26, 14 days later...
"Is there any reason why the president did not - he was asked point-blank in 'The View' interview, is this a terrorist attack, yes or no? Is there any reason he didn't say 'yes'?"
</div></div>
More half truths that could be called lies or not careful enough explanation....<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ROMNEY: In the last four years, you cut permits and licenses on federal lands and federal waters in half. OBAMA: Not true Gov. Romney....
Permits in the FY2009-2011 dropped by 37 percent compared to FY2006-2008 Leases in FY2009-2011 dropped by 42 percent compared to FY2006-2008
Romney is basing his claim on the total number of acres leased - and there are 56 percent fewer acres leased...
ROMNEY: And production on government land is down by 14 percent and production on gas is down 9 percent.
Oil production on public lands did drop by 14 percent in 2011 and natural gas production did drop by 9 percent (according to the US Energy Information Agency). BUT - overall, oil production is actually up slightly from 2009 to 2011.
</div></div>
One we already know about, the deficit.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ROMNEY: We have his own record which is we have four consecutive years where he said he was running for office he would cut the deficit in half, instead he has doubled it...
PoitiFact points out the only way to get to doubling is to use a different starting point, which is what the Romney campaign does. His campaign compares the current deficit to the final fiscal 2008 deficit of $458.6 billion. But that does not include the Wall Street bailout, first enacted under President Bush, which added more than $700 billion.
One part though that the Romney claim is true. President Obama has not kept his promise to cut the deficit in half. </div></div>
Here is another Romney half-truth
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ROMNEY: I know he keeps saying, you want to x. Well, the president took Detroit bankrupt. You took General Motors bankrupt. You took Chrysler bankrupt. So when you say that I wanted to take the auto industry bankrupt, you actually did. And I think it's important to know that that was a process that was necessary to get those companies back on their feet, so they could start hiring more people. That was precisely what I recommended and ultimately what happened...
There are two assertions here: 1) That President Obama "took Detroit bankrupt;" and, 2) That the president did "precisely what I recommended."
On the first, Romney is right. Chrysler and General Motors did go through a pre-packaged Chapter 11 bankruptcy reorganization. On the second, he is wrong. The president's bailout included some $80 billion in public financing (the bailout in "auto bailout") to help Chrysler and GM to get through bankruptcy. Romney opposed direct public financing. This is a crucial distinction because most industry experts said there was no provide financing available.
</div></div>
Romney Half truth
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Romney said the unemployment rate now is 7.8 percent and the rate when Obama took office was 7.8 percent, but he argued the true rate is much higher today. "If you calculate if people dropped out of the work force would be 10 percent."
He is about half right. If the labor force participation rate was exactly what it was when Obama came into office the unemployment rate would be nearly 11 percent. But economists say that the labor force is shrinking not just because people are too discouraged to look for work, but also because there is a surge in baby boomers retiring and people are staying in school longer. Here are two examples of research on this:
1. According to research by Daniel Sullivan and his team at the Chicago Federal Reserve about half of the decline in the labor force since 2000 is because of an increase in the aging population. They that goes into this.
2. Mark Zandi of Moody's Analytics concurs. Through his research he has established that the labor force participation rate has fallen by approximately 2.5 percentage points since the Great Recession hit. Of this, 1.5 percentage points is due to demographics, including boomers who are retiring, and 1 percentage points is due to poor economy.
</div></div>
Romney truth
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ROMNEY: With half of college kids graduating this year, without a college - excuse me - without a job and without a college level job, that's just not acceptable."
But the key to the statement is "underemployed." The figure comes from a March analysis conducted for the AP by a Northeastern University professor.
From the AP report:
"About 1.5 million, or 53.6 percent, of bachelor's degree-holders under the age of 25 last year were jobless or underemployed, the highest share in at least 11 years.
</div></div>
What is important and often left out with these fact checks is how the result is explained. Many times Romney will say something and Obama and other lefties will call it a lie when in reality there is damaging truth but it is easier to just try and wash the entire statement away as a lie instead of admitting to the damaging part.
One example is Romney going too far when explaining the auto-industry bailout. Romney could have stopped when he said, "I know he keeps saying, you want to x. Well, the president took Detroit bankrupt. You took General Motors bankrupt. You took Chrysler bankrupt. So when you say that I wanted to take the auto industry bankrupt, you actually did. And I think it's important to know that that was a process that was necessary to get those companies back on their feet, so they could start hiring more people. " He could have left off, "That was precisely what I recommended and ultimately what happened." By leaving that last part off he would have been 100% correct.
I know it would not make strategic sense for Obama to admit anything Romney says is true. Kind of like it wouldn't make sense for him to agree his position as POTUS is the final stop and he is ultimately responsible. Instead this is an election year and he needs Hitlary to fall on his sword.
eg8r