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View Full Version : NRA Head LaPierre: 'There is No Gun Show Loophole'



Qtec
12-25-2012, 02:10 AM
This interview with Wayne LaPierre on this Sunday's Meet the Press ended up going pretty well the way I expected it would, which is with David Gregory hitting LaPierre with some difficult questions, but doing what he usually does and going easy on him with any follow up. I disagree. Its the first time I have seen Gregory act like a real journalist.Why NBC felt the need to give this guy a national platform to repeat the same talking points he made during his bizarre press conference the other day is beyond me. Give them enough rope.....Q

After allowing LaPierre to blame our problems with gun violence in the United States on everything from a lack of armed guards in our schools, to our mental health system and on anything and everything other than guns, LaPierre said this about the gun show loophole.

LAPIERRE: Now, I know where you're going with this. They come up with this whole... the gun show loophole. There's not a gun show loophole. It's illegal for felons to do anything like that, to buy guns. What the anti-Second Amendment wants to do is put every gun sale in the country under the thumb of the federal government. Congress debated this at length. They said if you're a hobbyist or collector, if someone in West Virginia, a hunter wants to sell a gun to another hunter, they ought to be able to do it without being under the thumb of the federal government.

So he basically defended the loophole while claiming it doesn't exist. And David Gregory continued by trying to reason with someone who is not a rational or reasonable person.

GREGORY: What I hear you saying is, well, you can't do anything about high capacity ammunition magazines, because it simply won't work, yet you're proposing things that you don't know will completely work, but you're into the art of the possible, because Don't you see that people see that as a complete dodge?

Bingo. Yes, its a complete dodge.


your standard is, anything that has a chance of working we ought to try, except when it has to do with guns or ammunition.

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/nra-head-lapierre-there-no-gun-show-loopho

Unfortunately, this just happened.


Gunman Ambushes Firefighters at NY Blaze

A man convicted of killing his grandmother decades ago ambushed firefighters on Monday, fatally shooting two of them as they arrived to battle a blaze in upstate New York, police said.

Two other firefighters were wounded in the attack in the Rochester-area town of Webster. A police officer from the nearby town of Greece suffered minor shrapnel wounds when his vehicle was hit by gunfire.

Investigators believe the suspect, William Spengler, 62, set the original fire, then likely set himself up on a berm with a clear view of the scene and started shooting.

"It appears that it was a trap," Webster Police Chief Gerald Pickering said. "There was a car and a house that were involved in flames, probably set by Mr. Spengler, who laid in wait in armament and then shot the first responders."

Authorities do not know how Spengler -- who was found dead of a self-inflicted gunshot wound hours after the four firefighters were shot -- obtained the weapon or weapons he used or why he opened fire, Pickering told reporters. As a convicted felon, Spengler was not allowed to legally possess weapons, but he had "several different types of weapons" Monday, the police chief said.

How many more?

Q

cushioncrawler
12-25-2012, 02:57 AM
If every felon shot and killed 10 nonfelons, how many nonfelons would be remaining in the usofa.
300 million.
200 million.
100 million.
zero million.
minus 100 million.

Korrekt answer later.
mac.
(Woz that a shot i just heard just then. Dang, thats another one.)

cushioncrawler
12-25-2012, 03:04 AM
Felons
According to one estimate, there are currently over 12 million felons in the United States, representing roughly 8% of the working-age population.[1] The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission has interpreted the Civil Rights Act to require that, where an employment policy of a state, municipal, or private employer that discriminates against ex-offenders will have a disparate racial impact, employers must show a business necessity before automatically disqualifying ex-offenders.[2] Some statutes prohibit hiring ex-offenders for certain types of jobs, such as health care or education, and forbid licensing boards from distributing licenses to ex-offenders or require the boards to consider the applicant's moral character. Professions requiring licensing can include Emergency Medical Technicians and Paramedics, billiard room employees, attorneys, physicians, pharmacists, nurses, barbers, embalmers, septic tank cleaners, realtors, accountants, contractors, and sellers of alcoholic beverages. Such regulations sometimes result from lobbying by professional communities seeking to raise barriers to entry.

Qtec
12-25-2012, 07:53 AM
I think their point here is that criminals can get guns ,and the NRA supports that, while at the same time saying it would be illegal for felons to have guns!.



If every felon shot and killed 10 nonfelons, how many nonfelons would be remaining in the usofa.
300 million.
200 million.
100 million.
zero million.
minus 100 million.

Korrekt answer later.
mac.
(Woz that a shot i just heard just then. Dang, thats another one.)


Q

LWW
12-25-2012, 09:35 AM
Bingo. Yes, its a complete dodge.



http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/nra-head-lapierre-there-no-gun-show-loopho

Unfortunately, this just happened.



How many more?

Q

Please explain, in your own words, what the "GUN SHOW LOOPHOLE" is?

Also, have you yet figured out what a "CAPITAL GAIN" is?

Soflasnapper
12-25-2012, 12:42 PM
Please explain, in your own words, what the "GUN SHOW LOOPHOLE" is?

Also, have you yet figured out what a "CAPITAL GAIN" is?

I only recently found out what it WASN'T, when my allegedly mentally incapacitated father strongly disagreed with my mentioning it.

No, licensed gun dealers displaying weapons for sale at a gun show do not evade the requirement for background checks, paperwork, whatever-- all that is required there, as if they were at their own licensed shops. (That had been my error, thinking licensed gun dealers had no legal requirement at a gun show, and that is not so.)

BUT PRIVATE SELLERS DO. There, right at the gun show, just as if they were doing it in a completely private setting, such as in their house. How many could they have privately for sale, either at home, out of the back of their vehicle, or at a booth at the gun show? Any number. Dozens. Hundreds.

Enough is done this way to make 40% of gun sales in this country paper-less, untracked, unregistered, and no checks on the buyers, assuming that stat is correct.

One might think the gun show loophole is just a continuation of the 'private' sale loophole. But there's this difference. Privately, an unregistered and unlicensed guy with a gun or guns for sale can only hook up with x amount of people-- low single digit numbers with ease, much harder to get much above that. But at a several day gunshow, as we have around here-- hundreds and hundreds of buyers potentially walk by the booth or can be chatted up without a booth on the floor.

cushioncrawler
12-25-2012, 02:21 PM
The NRA issued a statement today that they do not support the 'private skool loophole'.
Skools kan evade the requirements for a properly registered and operated shooting range.
And, shooting ranges are prohibited from having live targets -- and some shooting range operators are now opening up private skools.
mac.

Make 3-shot revolvers kompulsory, ie a 6-shot but with every other hole a 'click' only.

LWW
12-25-2012, 03:54 PM
You can sell your own firearms ... meaning none that are new ... and you cannot take trades, offer credit, or be operating as a for profit business.

You can, however, liquidate a large personal collection and sell weapons built before 1890 something without FFL forms.

The number one enforcer against violaters ... and there are violaters of all laws ... are the FFL selers in attendance. I know a couple FFL dealers and they, like any licensed business, will push the state to hammer offenders.

The "GUNSHOW LOOPHOLE" scare is anti gun mythology.

This reminds me of several years ago an employee brought me a full page ad in the USAToday ran by the Brady people.

It claimed that gun show laws were so loose that a child could attend a gun show and buy a fully automatic weapon.

Knowing this was pure moonbattery, and knowing this otherwise good employee was a omplete moonbat when it came to the second amendment, I closed my office door and said "Steve, I want you to pay close attention but be quiet."

I called their 800 number and professed a desire to be a member at their highest contribution level, I think t was $2,500, but kept ranting about how anti gun I was as they kept trying to get me back on track to make the donation.

After a couple minutes selling them on my conviction, I told them that I had a friend who refused to believe that these *#%+€ег*%#'ed cold blooded murderers at gun shows could legally sell a child a fully autoatic weapon ... and how could I prove that it was true.

Trap set ... they confessed that it was an entirely wordsmithed claim, but since fully automatic weapons COULD be old, and only to LIVING PEOPLE, and since all living people HAD PARENTS, that meant that everyone who legally bought a licensed and axed automatic weapon at a gun show was the child of someone.

Soflasnapper
12-25-2012, 06:38 PM
There are a lot of guns sold in this country. New or used, I don't think that matters. Pawn shops, all pre-owned, obviously. Gun shops? Maybe both new and old, no reason they wouldn't re-sell used guns.

Supposedly, 40% of all gun sales evade background checks, whether legally (via the loopholes) or illegally, by ignoring applicable laws, again, it would appear not to matter.

If 40% of a large number (the total number of gun sales in this country) are done without background checks, then this is a big problem, in my view. Whether it is mainly the gunshow loophole or something else, it really ought to be addressed, as of course, even NRA members agree by majority according to polling that ANYBODY getting a gun ought to have a background check. If they are not, this is troublesome.

LWW
12-25-2012, 06:59 PM
There are a lot of guns sold in this country. New or used, I don't think that matters. Pawn shops, all pre-owned, obviously. Gun shops? Maybe both new and old, no reason they wouldn't re-sell used guns.

Supposedly, 40% of all gun sales evade background checks, whether legally (via the loopholes) or illegally, by ignoring applicable laws, again, it would appear not to matter.

If 40% of a large number (the total number of gun sales in this country) are done without background checks, then this is a big problem, in my view. Whether it is mainly the gunshow loophole or something else, it really ought to be addressed, as of course, even NRA members agree by majority according to polling that ANYBODY getting a gun ought to have a background check. If they are not, this is troublesome.

Pawn shops and FFL'ed dealers must file all appropriate forms because they are a for profit business.

I would be curious to see here the 40% number came from?

Soflasnapper
12-26-2012, 11:44 AM
Mayor Bloomberg has said this, and he's been asked to state what he based this on (as others also quote these same figures). Politifact for one asked the mayor's office, and reports the answer on their site. Excerpt:


Bloomberg’s office pointed us to a 1997 study (https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf) by the National Institute of Justice on who owns guns and how they use them.The researchers estimated that about 40 percent of all firearm sales took place through people other than licensed dealers. They based their conclusion on a random survey of more than 2,500 households.

In 1999, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives released a report on gun shows. (http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/treas/treas-gun-shows-brady-checks-and-crime-gun-traces.pdf) Investigators found that a quarter of the vendors were private sellers, not licensed dealers, and reported that "felons and other prohibited persons who want to avoid Brady Act checks and records of their purchase buy firearms at these shows." They said guns from such shows had been used in drug crimes.

Both of these reports are at least 10 years out of date. We called the ATF and asked if there was anything more recent. They had nothing new to add. We called the National Rifle Association and the National Shooting Sports Foundation, groups that oppose new efforts to track gun transactions. Neither organization responded.

Bloomberg himself has complained about the lack of new research. Josh Horwitz, executive director of the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, told PolitiFact that no one knows exactly how gun sales break down between the formal and the informal markets. He said there are no data on gun shows, blaming the NRA for opposing regulation of them. Without a paper trail for each transaction, there’s nothing to count.

Legislation briefs posted on one of the NRA’s websites confirm the group’s stand on this point. When New York lawmakers introduced a bill that would have required background checks (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/112/s436/text) at gun shows, an NRA columnist warned (http://www.nrapublications.org/index.php/13079/ever-wonder-what-a-loophole-looks-like/) this would lead to "confiscation of some or all firearms" by creating a more complete list of all gun owners.

The City of New York (http://www.nyc.gov/html/cjc/downloads/pdf/nyc_pointclickfire.pdf)commissioned an investigation of Internet gun sales. The report said on 10 websites, it found over 25,000 weapons for sale.The report said that over 60 percent of sellers allowed a purchase to move forward even when the alleged buyer said he didn’t believe he would pass a background check. Sellers who used Craigslist were most likely to violate the law, the report said. Our ruling

Mayor Bloomberg said 40 percent of gun sales take place through gun shows or the Internet.

The best information on the informal gun market is based on a survey and is about 15 years old. Current regulations don’t allow direct tallies of sales of this sort. An undercover investigation found a great deal of internet activity, but it was sponsored by a mayor who seeks greater regulation. Groups opposed to greater regulation were asked to rebut the mayor’s assertion and did not respond.



http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jul/25/michael-bloomberg/mayor-michael-bloomberg-says-40-percent-guns-are-s/

LWW
12-26-2012, 01:24 PM
You should have read the vaunted 1997 report, apparently POLITIFACT did not. https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf

43% purchased from a gun store, 6% from a pawn shop, 11% from a retail store ... KMART/WALMART et al ... 3% mail order, which would require shipment to an FFL dealer ... so 63% were purchased, minimum, through an FFL'ed dealer.

Another 29% bought or were gifted the weapon from a friend or family member.

Only 4% of sales were purchased at gun shows ... including te huge majority bought also from an FFL'ed dealer at a gun show.

The last 4% were purchased from the mysterious "OTHER" category.

So, in reality, a solid 90% or more were sales that went through an FFL'ed dealer once gifts and such are taken into account.

Sp, again, we are left with the idea that 40% of sales went through the "GUN SHOW EXEMPTION" just desn't stand up to reality ... and that's from 18 years ago when laws were easier.

Now, I have seen the videos where plants were sent to gun shows explaining that they were felons, and the seller didn't care.

Towards that I have several points.

1 - Shows such as SIXTY MINUTES and TWENTY-TWENTY have a history of fabricating similar expose' incidents.

The GM side saddle gas tank fraud is one. FOODLION fraud is another. The Mick Foley interview on SIXTY MINUTES is another. The GM/GMAC racial discrimination fraud is another.

I don't know how many of these gun show expose' shows were fraudulent ... but the network tell all industry's history is not good.

2 - Only a total MOE-RON would attempt to buy a gun at a gun show and include in the conversation "Ah shore nuff dudn't thank ah kin pass nary of them revenooer checks cuz ah dun did sum time!" I'm sure such stupidity exists ... but it is exceedingly rare.

3 - Even if you accept the news expose' as being less than gonzo journalism, if they send a plant to 100 sellers and 1 is crooked, guess which one makes the show and is presented in a way to lead people to believe they were te exception and not the rule.

4 - Assuming these plants are real, why aren't the crooks prosecuted? It s legal for me to sell my personal firearms to what I believe to be an honest citizen. It is not legal for me to knowingly sell to someone that a reasonable seller would suspect to be ineligible.

5 - This isn't to say I'm naive enough to believe that no fraud goes on ... but the feds would do the public a far greater good if they went after the crooks and left the law abiding alone.

6 - It is well established that law enforcement can pose as drug dealers, prostitutes, pimps, pedophiles, hired assassins and other scofflaws in order to catch criminals. How hard would it be to send in some faux buyers to flush out criminal seller?

7 - The use of #6 would spread like wild fire, and would probably chase a few honest people away from shows.

8 - If you doubt #7, notice how many people stand on the brakes when they see the po-po running LIDAR in teams? Folks that were driving below the limit will slow down not wanting to get confused with a speeder.

9 - I am very pro law enforcement, especially when it comes to keeping weapons away from homicidal, suicidal, genocidal, dance recital maniacs ... that being said, the laws run especially heavy on picking the low hanging fruit of making life difficult for the law abding.

10 - There are more than enough laws on the books to go after the scofflaws ... except that they won't. To classic examples are when Reno JD refused to prosecute people who attempted to buy a firearm from an FFL'ed dealer ... which was and is a crime ... unawfully. I honestly don't think the Bush regime changed policy until 9/11. A second example was a school shooting in the not too distant past where an of age GF bought the weapon for an underage thug and officils decided not to prosecute. A third example is the LA bank robbery a bit back where the thugs wore body armor and the LAPD was horribly ill prepared, and a gun shop owner saw it on TV and delivered weaponry to the LAPD more lethal than the sal .38 ... ad since they did so without filing FFL foms they were nearly prosecuted ... until the NRA stepped in with legal help.

11 - When the gubmint makes such foolish choices they send the message that the penalty for peripheral gun crimes is little to none, and the penalty for aiding law enforcement is potentially brutal.

12 - By definition, an "OUTLAW" is someone willing to operate operate outside the law, and the odds of one more law ... especially when tough enforcement is unlikely ... making a difference is dubious at the very best. OTOH rigid enforcement of existing laws would most likely do society far more good.

Soflasnapper
12-26-2012, 02:43 PM
You have rebutted a claim not in evidence, that 40% of gun sales without paperwork or background checking occur through the gun show loophole's exploitation. That isn't what I said, or what Mayor Bloomberg is quoted saying. People stating that are in error, if any such people can be found, apparently mistaking what can be supported from studies with a broader claim that cannot.

Given the proper foundational question, what you found by reading the report to which PolitiFact linked actually supports the claim fairly well (as to the past findings, admittedly old, and stated as old in the quoted piece). Switching to an alternate question is either confusion, or diversion, from the point in play.

LWW
12-26-2012, 06:26 PM
From your source, 8% of sales had no paper trail ... half of them being from gunshows.

From your source ... 3 of 4 gunshow vendors are FFL'ed dealers. Assuming the independent vendors sell as many guns as the FFL'ed vendors, on average, which is in itself highly dubious ... 1 in 8 with no paperwork is a high end estimate and far below the claimed 40% figure.

When you factor in family and friend sales the claim fades into simple silliness.

Qtec
12-27-2012, 07:21 AM
From your source, 8% of sales had no paper trail ... half of them being from gunshows.

From your source ... 3 of 4 gunshow vendors are FFL'ed dealers. Assuming the independent vendors sell as many guns as the FFL'ed vendors, on average, which is in itself highly dubious ... 1 in 8 with no paperwork is a high end estimate and far below the claimed 40% figure.

When you factor in family and friend sales the claim fades into simple silliness.

So exactly how many guns are we talking about possibly falling into the hands of criminals?

Answer.........................a lot of guns.

Q

LWW
12-27-2012, 07:38 AM
So exactly how many guns are we talking about possibly falling into the hands of criminals?

Answer.........................a lot of guns.

Q

And this is a non fixable problem when the efforts are aimed at those already following the law.

Why can't the anti gun folks ever wrap their heads around the idea that stopping the law abiding only enables the outlaw?

Perhaps the following will help you to understand:

http://youtu.be/Q84ILZcJPJE

Qtec
12-27-2012, 08:19 AM
And this is a non fixable problem when the efforts are aimed at those already following the law.

Why can't the anti gun folks ever wrap their heads around the idea that stopping the law abiding only enables the outlaw?

Perhaps the following will help you to understand:

http://youtu.be/Q84ILZcJPJE


LOL. Looks like James O'Keefe,s boyfriend!

Q

LWW
12-27-2012, 08:46 AM
LOL. Looks like James O'Keefe,s boyfriend!

Q

Sadly, you remain nothing more than a parrot.

Qtec
12-27-2012, 09:03 AM
And this is a non fixable problem when the efforts are aimed at those already following the law.

Why can't the anti gun folks ever wrap their heads around the idea that stopping the law abiding only enables the outlaw?

Perhaps the following will help you to understand:

http://youtu.be/Q84ILZcJPJE

just answer the question.


So exactly how many guns are we talking about possibly falling into the hands of criminals?

You say a small %.

How small is this small %?

How many guns?

Q

LWW
12-27-2012, 10:26 AM
You are so funny when you try to appear to be informed.

The actual number is irrelevant since all of the anti gun proposals go after the law abiding and give the criminal element a pass.

Go after those who violate the law and you have my support ... continue to parrot spoon fed jibba jabba that you don't understand and you will continue making yourself look silly.

Qtec
12-28-2012, 07:03 AM
The actual number is irrelevant

Really?

Q