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griffith_d
10-13-2002, 08:34 AM
All of the talk about stiff shaft(314 or laminated) and whippy shaft(say Red Dot Meucci), some people prefer one or the other.

Some say a stiff shaft is better for long shots, while a whippy shaft is better for close shots and applying english.

I have been thinking about the whippy shaft when the CB is struck. I watched the cue tip on a Meucci and it vibrated back and forth a lot when hit. Now wouldn't the cue tip moving to the right(bending) when using right english make the CB move to the left when the cue tip bounced back to the left, causing the CB to squirt to the left? If the shaft was stiffer and bend less, wouldn't that cause less squirt?

Griff

Chris Cass
10-13-2002, 10:02 AM
Hi Griffith_d,

You need Tony M. to answer that question. I seen no replies and wanted you to know someone cares. LOL

Regards,

C.C.~~just hits the blasted thing. Only thinks about, ridding the cheese, cause I'm a Cowboy baby. hahahaha

Tom_In_Cincy
10-13-2002, 10:25 AM
Good questions get repeated often. Good answers aren't ...
Here is a discussion from the RSB newsgroup from 1998

There are quite a few discussions about "whippy", "stiff", "squirt", "deflection" and what others have discoverd about the charactoristics of each property.. and how to measure the effect of all.

If you are really interested.. go to www.google.com (http://www.google.com) and selct the "newsgroup" tab on the search folder.. and type in RSB _____ ("whippy", "stiff", "squirt", "deflection") your choice.. lots of interesting reading.

Just one sample of the discussion threads you can expect:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&th=5683195a341b0962&rnum=1

griffith_d
10-13-2002, 10:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Good questions get repeated often. Good answers aren't ...
Here is a discussion from the RSB newsgroup from 1998

There are quite a few discussions about "whippy", "stiff", "squirt", "deflection" and what others have discoverd about the charactoristics of each property.. and how to measure the effect of all.

If you are really interested.. go to http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&amp;lr=&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;oe=UTF-8&amp;th=5683195a341b0962&amp;rnum=1 (http://www.google.com>www.google.com</a>) <hr></blockquote>

I guess I was not looking for an answer, I have an answer, I guess I was looking for an opinion for a stiff or whippy shaft.

Griff

Tom_In_Cincy
10-13-2002, 11:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>
I guess I was not looking for an answer, I have an answer, I guess I was looking for an opinion for a stiff or whippy shaft.
Griff
<hr></blockquote>

Griff,

The site I referenced gives lots of opinions.. if this is what you are looking for.

My opinion is:

That a Whippy shaft has less deflection than a Stiff shaft. This is just my opinion.. I know there are others that will disagree.. and I respect that.. but this is just my opinion.

A whippy shaft will work just as good as a stiff shaft for follow or draw. A stiff shaft will cause the cue ball to squirt more. This is just my opinion.. I know there are others that will disagree.. and I respect that.. but this is just my opinion.


My experiences with a whippy Meucci and stiff Joss influenced me to draw this conclusion.

This is just my opinion.. I know there are others that will disagree.. and I respect that.. but this is just my opinion.

PLEASE.. if you want to disagree..do not expect any replies.. I am not willing to debate your opinion versus mine.

Just state your opinion for Griff.. he's the one that wants them..

griffith_d
10-13-2002, 11:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt;
I guess I was not looking for an answer, I have an answer, I guess I was looking for an opinion for a stiff or whippy shaft.
Griff
&lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Griff,

The site I referenced gives lots of opinions.. if this is what you are looking for.

My opinion is:

That a Whippy shaft has less deflection than a Stiff shaft. This is just my opinion.. I know there are others that will disagree.. and I respect that.. but this is just my opinion.

A whippy shaft will work just as good as a stiff shaft for follow or draw. A stiff shaft will cause the cue ball to squirt more. This is just my opinion.. I know there are others that will disagree.. and I respect that.. but this is just my opinion.


My experiences with a whippy Meucci and stiff Joss influenced me to draw this conclusion.

This is just my opinion.. I know there are others that will disagree.. and I respect that.. but this is just my opinion.

PLEASE.. if you want to disagree..do not expect any replies.. I am not willing to debate your opinion versus mine.

Just state your opinion for Griff.. he's the one that wants them..
<hr></blockquote>

No, I am looking for a debate,...I was looking opinions on preference, and why that preference. People I have run across, cut down Meucci because of its whippy shaft, other liket the whippy shaft.

I have found that the stiffer shaft, laminated or not, seem to be better on longer shots as the CB does track straighter, as the shaft does not vibrate as much.

No need to take exception to your opinion,...that is what I wanted.

Griff

cheesemouse
10-13-2002, 11:59 AM
Tom, I just went to the 'google site' you suggested and read the whole sample about 'whippy'. After reading it I have to say that I agree with Chris Cass who said "just hits the blasted thing. Only thinks about, ridding the cheese, cause I'm a Cowboy baby. hahahaha". All I can add is: "YAHOO!!!!! OPEN THE DAMN GATE &amp; LET'ER BUCK POWDER RIVER!!! WHERE IS THE CHEESE????"

Cueless Joey
10-13-2002, 12:06 PM
I believe Bob Jewitt opined that a shaft which keeps most of it's vibration at the front end has less deflection.
I can't argue with that as 3-cushion players play with that kind of shaft.
314 is not stiff. It has a 15-17 inch barrell. Schulers are stiff.
But then again, homeless one-eyed punks beat me with a broom handle. So my opinion doesn't count.

TonyM
10-13-2002, 01:45 PM
Shaft stiffness has very little effect on squirt. Check out Ron Shepard's paper on "Everything you ever wanted to know about Squirt" for the details on the physics involved.

As for a whippy shaft being better at applying spin, I think that this is an often repeated pool player's myth!

Most pool players have never seen a world class 3 cushion player spin the ball. Ask them if they would rather use a whippy or stiff shaft! I can assure you, they prefer a stiff shaft!

Spin is likely shaft stiffness neutral, as spin is determined by the tip offset, and the speed of the hit only. Cueball speed however, is affected by some other things, like cue weight, and possibly shaft stiffness. In theory, a very flexible shaft will lose some impact energy in the collision, which will result in a bit less cueball speed.

So shaft stiffness might effect the spin/speed ratio, but not the overall amount of spin.

For good draw, in theory it could be argued that a stiff shaft, losing a bit less energy (read cue ball speed) might be a bit better.

I also think that a flexible shaft, when absorbing some of the impact energy might "mask" some of the effort. This could give the impression of more spin with less effort. (an analogy would be punching a brick wall with your bare hand, and punching the same wall with a boxing glove. Both punches might involve the same force, but the bare hand will "feel" all the force, and the glove will mask it- not to mention the pain!).

In practice, shaft stiffness provides some feedback to the player (albeit after the ball has gone!).

So there is room for personal preference with regards to shaft stiffness.

So I think you can forget about shaft stiffness with respect to squirt, or spin, and adjust the stiffness for other reasons (feel, feedback, and perhaps closed bridge comfort?).

Tony
-likes a stiff shaft....

griffith_d
10-13-2002, 01:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TonyM:</font><hr> Shaft stiffness has very little effect on squirt. Check out Ron Shepard's paper on "Everything you ever wanted to know about Squirt" for the details on the physics involved.

very good opinion,....something I was looking for.

Griff

As for a whippy shaft being better at applying spin, I think that this is an often repeated pool player's myth!

Most pool players have never seen a world class 3 cushion player spin the ball. Ask them if they would rather use a whippy or stiff shaft! I can assure you, they prefer a stiff shaft!

Spin is likely shaft stiffness neutral, as spin is determined by the tip offset, and the speed of the hit only. Cueball speed however, is affected by some other things, like cue weight, and possibly shaft stiffness. In theory, a very flexible shaft will lose some impact energy in the collision, which will result in a bit less cueball speed.

So shaft stiffness might effect the spin/speed ratio, but not the overall amount of spin.

For good draw, in theory it could be argued that a stiff shaft, losing a bit less energy (read cue ball speed) might be a bit better.

I also think that a flexible shaft, when absorbing some of the impact energy might "mask" some of the effort. This could give the impression of more spin with less effort. (an analogy would be punching a brick wall with your bare hand, and punching the same wall with a boxing glove. Both punches might involve the same force, but the bare hand will "feel" all the force, and the glove will mask it- not to mention the pain!).

In practice, shaft stiffness provides some feedback to the player (albeit after the ball has gone!).

So there is room for personal preference with regards to shaft stiffness.

So I think you can forget about shaft stiffness with respect to squirt, or spin, and adjust the stiffness for other reasons (feel, feedback, and perhaps closed bridge comfort?).

Tony
-likes a stiff shaft.... <hr></blockquote>

TonyM
10-13-2002, 01:55 PM
"That a Whippy shaft has less deflection than a Stiff shaft. This is just my opinion.. I know there are others that will disagree.. and I respect that.. but this is just my opinion. "

Many believe this, but many also believe the opposite. Both cannot be right. I think neither are.
I think that squirt is shaft stiffness neutral.
Both Predator and myself (and others) have experimented with super stiff shafts that are also super low squirt (way less than a 314!). If shaft stiffness determined squirt, such a shaft would not be possible. In science it only takes one exception to disprove a generality.
Btw, these shafts are made from graphite/epoxy fibers, and are very thin-walled (for low end-mass). I think that squirt is mainly determined by the efective end mass. It seems possible to create a low end-mass shaft with any stiffness desired. Again, I think that stiffness is of minor importance to the squirt effect. The most current squirt theory also supports this conclusion.

What about all those 3 cushion cues with the super stiff, and yet low squirt shafts?

While I respect your opinion, I think that comparing a Meucci and a Joss is like comparing apples and oranges!

How do you know that the squirt change was caused by the stiffness and not a difference in end-mass (like Meucci's low mass ferrule design)?

I prefer to have a hypothesis, rather than an opinion.

To me (and this is my opinion) opinions are not useful for science.

Tony
-how many times can we say opinion in a single thread?....

Tom_In_Cincy
10-13-2002, 02:13 PM
TonyM,

Your opinion is noted..

Brent
10-15-2002, 11:31 AM
Sorry to interrupt but I also got a few questions about shafts. Well the thing is that I bought this cheap-ass cue. Deem if I had like 10 more dollars I would have got a Cuetec but alas. Anyway the cue itself is pretty good looking and smooth...and its prolly ok for me cuz its my first cue n all. Everythings seemed ok but when I rolled the deem shaft at home on the table I saw that it isnt 100% straight and when I rolled it ..well it wobbled a bit..not moch..lol. Now I wanted to ask if its a bad thing or is it quite regular or whut. Why am I asking a thing like this when I could just try it...well its that I bought it today and havent had time to go play. Thnx

Brent from Estonia

Jay M
10-15-2002, 11:39 AM
It depends. If it is one of those 10-20 dollar cues, the bend is there to stay and will affect the way you shoot. If it's one of the somewhat decent low end cues, the shafts will be more flexible and they tend to bend one way one day and another way the next. Overall they stay close to straight and, while they WILL affect the shot, they are fine for learning the basics while you are getting together enough to buy a better cue. (note that meucci's do this too if you have the older shafts) There are some taiwanese cues out there that run in the 50-60 dollar range that shoot pretty darn well.

Jay M

griffith_d
10-15-2002, 11:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Brent:</font><hr> Sorry to interrupt but I also got a few questions about shafts. Well the thing is that I bought this cheap-ass cue. Deem if I had like 10 more dollars I would have got a Cuetec but alas. Anyway the cue itself is pretty good looking and smooth...and its prolly ok for me cuz its my first cue n all. Everythings seemed ok but when I rolled the deem shaft at home on the table I saw that it isnt 100% straight and when I rolled it ..well it wobbled a bit..not moch..lol. Now I wanted to ask if its a bad thing or is it quite regular or whut. Why am I asking a thing like this when I could just try it...well its that I bought it today and havent had time to go play. Thnx

Brent from Estonia <hr></blockquote>

Take it back,....there should absolutely no wobble when rolled. Roll the next one many times to make sure,...but it has to be a hard surface,..carpet won't show the wobble.

Griff

Anonamus
10-15-2002, 11:49 AM
"As for a whippy shaft being better at applying spin, I think that this is an often repeated pool player's myth!"

I don't think a whippy shaft is any better, I think it is easier to apply spin. That's why spin happy players love Meucci cues. Once you get past that you want a stiff shaft because it gives a more consistent hit.

"Most pool players have never seen a world class 3 cushion player spin the ball. Ask them if they would rather use a whippy or stiff shaft! I can assure you, they prefer a stiff shaft!"

I think they would prefer the stiffer shaft mostly because the ball that they hit is a lot heavier. Have you noticed that snooker players use much thinner shafts?

Rod
10-15-2002, 12:45 PM
Griff,
I have my thoughts about how a shaft bends, but that's neither here nor there cause it doesn't make any difference to me. What does make a difference is the reaction. Wimpy shafts just don't have the feel I like. A friend bought the original pred shaft. I don't know if it was 314 or what but it was really soft. Another friend had a muchie and asked me to hit a few balls. He was shooting a long rail first, cut shot. I tried but I had to start aiming as I recall at near 1/2 of the ball. Well that doesn't compute with me so I gave it back and said don't ever ask me to shoot with that dam thing again! LOL I guess it's just what your use to, if you play with something long enough maybe it works.

Brent
10-15-2002, 01:53 PM
Hmm one of my friends also started yelling at me and told me to take it back NOW..he said ..lol. I will tomorrow. I got the recite and everything. When it comes to the price.well it cost me about 90$. So I guess it isnt the cheapest on the market. Darn if I only had 10 dollars more I could have got a Cuetec with the extra smoth shaft or something like that. Ok thnx 4 youre advice..Il take it back 1st thing after college tomorrow.

Brent

griffith_d
10-15-2002, 02:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Rod:</font><hr> Griff,
I have my thoughts about how a shaft bends, but that's neither here nor there cause it doesn't make any difference to me. What does make a difference is the reaction. Wimpy shafts just don't have the feel I like. A friend bought the original pred shaft. I don't know if it was 314 or what but it was really soft. Another friend had a muchie and asked me to hit a few balls. He was shooting a long rail first, cut shot. I tried but I had to start aiming as I recall at near 1/2 of the ball. Well that doesn't compute with me so I gave it back and said don't ever ask me to shoot with that dam thing again! LOL I guess it's just what your use to, if you play with something long enough maybe it works. <hr></blockquote>

I guess the old saying applies,..."when you eat crap your whole life, crap tastes ok, but then when you eat steak, you will never eat crap again".

Griff

10-15-2002, 03:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Brent:</font><hr>Darn if I only had 10 dollars more I could have got a Cuetec with the extra smoth shaft or something like that. Brent <hr></blockquote>

um...you're kidding about the cuetec....right???

dan

Jay M
10-15-2002, 03:57 PM
personal opinion here. you can get a meucci sneaky pete for about $90.00 dufferin has a bunch of cues in that price range (and lower). Also, there are McDermott basic model cues in that range.

If it was me and that was my total budget, I'd spend about 50.00 on a good Dufferin house cue and spend the other 40 on having a cue guy make it into a sneaky pete and change out the ferrule and tip for good ones. That's assuming I didn't like meucci, personally I do so that's the route I would take.

Note that if you look around, you can get decent used cues for that much. I see them all the time around here. Just tell the guy behind the counter at the local pool hall (not bar) that you are looking for a used cue in the 90 dollar range. If he doesn't have one now, he'll probably get one sometime soon. I know of three that local players are selling in this area alone.

Jay M

Brent
10-15-2002, 10:14 PM
Loool ofcourse.

Brent

10-16-2002, 07:38 PM
Tony
-how many times can we say opinion in a single thread?.... <hr></blockquote>


When you have a Moron_in_Cincy posting nonsense 7-10 times a day, and he TRIES to appear non-opinionated and fair-minded, this is what happens.

Methinks he would do well to stick to CCB groupthink enforcement and mindless cheerleading.

TonyM
10-17-2002, 01:59 PM
"I don't think a whippy shaft is any better, I think it is easier to apply spin."

How so? The only argument that I can think of is that a long "pro" taper (shaft is cylindrical and doesn't grow in diameter) might be easier to use with a closed bridge. And since a long pro taper is usually "whippy", we tend to associate flexibility with ease of use.

Otherwise I can't see how the shaft flexibility makes it "easier" to apply spin.

Tony
-Snooker player prefer a small tip, not a "thinner" shaft. In fact, most snooker shafts are thicker about half way up when compared to a pool shaft (they are conical). They are often very "stiff"...