View Full Version : Joss Tours, etc.
03-05-2002, 08:30 AM
I received an email asking why when I lived in Maine I didn't play on the Joss Tour. I wanted to share my answer with the board.
I've had 19 tournaments, Mike.I lost more than $10,000 on 6 of them.But when a poster or flyer says a certain amount of money is added and the name Grady Mathews is on the ads,that exact amount is added,no matter how much money I may have lost.Added money is the amount of money that is over and above the entry fees,period-no exceptions no BS.
I saw a flyer for one of the Joss events when I lived in Maine,stating that $1,500 was going to be added.Since it was only an hour and a half from where I lived and I figured I'd get some action too I decided to go.I get there and tthe tournament has 54 players who paid $100 each.But when I added up the total prize money it only came to $5,800.That's $400 added not $1,500.I became really angry as I had just lost $11,000 on my previous event.I demanded an apology and my money back.I got neither and I would never play in the degrading events of the so-called mini-tours currently in vogue in America.I couldn't make a living if I won all of them.
I offered to help raise more money and/or to change the wording so that added money was real added money but they(Zuglan,etc.)weren't interested.So what else can I say?
The Texas Express takes virtually all the money as does the Viking tour and the things that go on in Florida.It's a regular occurance for guys to win 9 matches and have $200 coming.
I'll be doing my own small events very soon and everyone may rest assured that aded money will be real added money.
Grady, I've had the pleasure of watching you play on the Joss and at the Masters when you defeated Shannon Dalton. In my opinion you can still play with the best. I have no complaint about the Joss since I'm not a player and I get to watch great players at no charge. Nevertheless, It has been reported to me that the payout on the Joss is short.
I went to the flow chart of the 12/15 event at Action Billiards where I had jotted down the payout. There were 38 players and the payout added up to $4540. That event was billed as a "$1500 added" meaning that there was $5300 available. A shortfall of $760, if my math is right.
There's no need for them to short the players. They raffle off a cue and sell plenty of tickets for it. There was an event in Torrington that was sparsely attended. It's interesting that there was no cue raffle at that event. I assume that they keep a hefty share of the Calcutta which comes close to matching the purse. When I get a chance I'll add that up and see what they do with it. I'm surprised they have such a loyal group of players since many of them have no reasonable chance of ever getting in the money.
Ken in CT
03-05-2002, 10:51 AM
Are you kidding? These small tournaments are for the most part no profit deals. The room owner puts up money, Usually more then they can afford. He loses two nights worth business with a room full of people who don't spend a dime. Has a mess to clean up on Monday. The promoter travels, puts the thing together, advertises the event, even making phone calls to try to get a turn out. Then runs the thing for two days, usually 16 hours a day. Sponsor money is minimal if there is any. Sometimes they just give you stuff to sell or raffle. If the money does not add up, it is most likely because they held back a green fee from the entry fee. This is always disclosed in advance. But the room owner did add the promised money. Any player playing on any of these tours, should be very glad someone is willing to do this thankless job and put on these tournaments. I used to do it and quit. It is exactly that, a thankless job you do for pretty much nothing, and then have to put up with someone like you bitching. I suggest you do everyone involved a favor don't play in them.
03-05-2002, 11:03 AM
Using your math that comes to $20. per player. Without having ever seeing an original flyer I bet it says there is a $20 green fee. Like you said they did not even charge you to get in. Are you saying you not only want them to lose money, but provide you free entertainment on top of it. Maybe they should begin paying you for the pleasure of having your presents at the tournament. I don't mean to sound harsh, but that is exactly the way I feel. Been there, done that and won't do it again. Can't believe anyone dose.
Q-guy, I was about to post that the room owner loses two days business and there might be a greens fee (there is nothing on the flyer which I have in front of me) but you beat me to it. I was merely confirming Grady's observation that they do not pay the entire amount. I have no problem with that but some players do.
I do indeed appreciate them providing me with free entertainmant. I don't feel they should pay me to attend. I would like to win a cue or two, however, since I usually put $20 into the raffle.
Joss provides the cue to raffle and there are other sponsors as well. You are suggesting that their expenses should come out of the player's pockets when they have sponsors and a calcutta. I think Grady is suggesting that if they say "$1500 added" that it should be the truth.
I really don't care either way and I would be glad to pay my way in if they go to that. I think I remember that you jumped all over Barry Behrman when he changed the payout due to the World Trade Center tragegy. At least he had a reason. If they want to say $1500 added with $1000 to be used for greens fees then that's fine (they kept $1000 at Rhode Island Billiards on 1/12). If they want to say 18% retained for expenses that's fine too.
They should do whatever it takes to make the tour selfsupporting but if it's false advertising for Barry then it's false advertising for them as well.
03-05-2002, 12:22 PM
I am sincerely sorry for the tone of my post, it is a sore spot for me. Running a tournament for nothing and then being accused of some kind of wrong doing hurts. Every player comes there with a personal agenda. If it is Buddy Hall the money is spread to thin. If it a lesser player the money is too top end. You take abuse from all sides. Spectators who wouldn't pay a fin to get in want to tell you how to run the tournament. If there is a door charge, they try to sneak in. You get such disrespect you become very bitter. I am beginning to sound like Grady. I think I should stay off this subject in the future. I apologize.
03-05-2002, 12:48 PM
I was simply asked why I don't play in Joss events.Like I said I offered to help them raise more money and to properly state how much money was added.
When I had my Senior tournament in Maine,28 players showed up despite the fact that I added more money than Steve Mizerak, $15,000 to be exact.I didn't complain or knock the prize money down.Everybody got paid every advertised nickel.In Reno,1993,I added $61,500 but there were 6 snowstorms closing the airport and all the passes over the Sierras from Northern california.I lost $22,000 on the event but everyone got paid every nickel.
Alison, jennette and Ewa get $7,500 per exhibition now. I don't complain about that either.But when added money is advertised, Goddamn it I expect the money to be there.There just isn't any excuse for it not being there in it's entirety.
I'm wearying of the downtrodden room owner act too. I've had 4 rooms and I know how rough it is but I paid every nickel I advertised as added in my rooms too.The prize money that exists in these small tours is degrading and I don't lend my name to them anymore and I encourage other players to do the same.I do apologize if the tone of my words offends some but I believe really strongly in what I'm saying here.
Q-guy, I appreciate where you're coming from and that's what I got from your posts. I just like to have some pool to watch but I can understand the problems that come up in the business of trying to maintain a tour. Unfortunately there isn't enough money to go around.
I'm certainly not in a position to complain but I can see the players perspective. The flyer is intended to attract players and it makes statements that players must rely on when deciding whether or not to participate. The numbers are plain. $100 entry and $1500 to $10,000 added depending on the event (he last two events in Chelmsford add $17,500 and they should definately charge admission since there will be many name players there). Minimum 25% payout (they paid 21% at Action Billiards but to add 4 places would have made it 31%).
All I can say is that I know promoters are unhappy if they don't get compensated for their efforts and the players are unhappy if they don't get all they are promised. It's too bad that the room owners can't make a little also. It's a tough business.
Hey Grady, Allans Expo is next week. 1000 players at $75 a crack, that's $75,000 total and the top prize is 5 grand. I think calling him a gangster is going a little easy on him.
03-05-2002, 02:01 PM
You are right, Mike. I've tried in every way I know to let people know what kind of per son he is. He takes almost all the money all the time. Do the math, as I have and you'll see.
03-05-2002, 02:31 PM
Lets get some facts straight..1st.. the Joss tour takes out $20. of each entry. 2nd.. out of this $20. the house gets $10. $5.00 is paid to the tournament director fopr his valuable time. $5.00 went to the kitty so that Mike had $5,000 to add to the last Joss tour event at Country Club in Chelmsford. They are not stealing any money and most of the players are aware of this fact. the calcutta.. i do not know what happens. But i will say this. When we has the Joss tour event at the GOLDEN CUE here in Albany.. The house shut down all table until after the days play of the tournament. After all was said and done the house actually lost money by shutting down the tables for so long. They made less then $500. for all their work. I think Mike Zuglan and Pat Murray and Even Tommy kennedy should bre praised for putting up with all the bull from the players and the room owners should also be thanked for doing it and losing their regular customers for that particular weekend. As some one already stated.. It is free to watch (except Chelmsford) and provides excellent entertainment. Where else can you go watch players of Ginky's caliber or Mika or jose parica Or Tommy Kennedy.. FOR FREE.....SO LETS JUST PRAISE THESE PEOPLE FOR DOING A GREAT JOB INSTEAD OF KNOCKING THEM.. By the way GRADY.. The email was for my own Personal Knowledge.. not the boards ,,since you made it a point to mention my name.................mike
03-05-2002, 02:57 PM
Having said all that what is the answer. Boycotting tournaments isn't the answer. Most promoters are amateur and if the tours dried up what has been proven, everyone loses. The money just is not there. I'm telling you, if you put on a tournament, the so called fans won't pay $5.00 to come in no matter who is there, and will call you a crook for charging. I tried to put on a series on challenge matches between world champion players. After losing almost $5000. on the first one I was done. I had newspaper, and TV coverage. I did not draw 200 spectators over three nights. When I look at the video of me presenting the winner with his cash, I look like a beaten man. I have come to accept the fact that pool is not a spectator sport. Outside of the industry you can't get a sponsor. Now that I think about it you can't get one inside either. Even I have jumped on you before, we are on the same page. You are just a little more out spoken then most. In regard to these small tours, I would need all the facts before actually accusing anyone for wrong doing. I know how hard those tours are to keep going. No one is making any big score there.
Hey guys take it easy with all this Joss Tour trashing. $100 entry, $10 goes back to the room owner for table time, $5 to the end of the year players prize fund and $5 goes to Zuglan to help cover the costs of one of the best regional tours this country has ever had. $80 goes in the prize fund along with whatever money added has been advertised. If someone can do a better job, then Just Do It! Friend of Gradys, Joe Tucker
Allison, Jeanette and someone get $7500 per exhibition and you dont resent that you say. Why would u even bring that up and why would anyone resent that? It sounds like you do resent it and i cant imagine why!
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