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Jay M
10-17-2002, 08:39 AM
OK, so we've talked about sharking, cloth, cues, cue balls, aliens and all of the other normal fare.

What is the most blatant deliberate cheat you've ever seen.

For me, there are two.

In a game for a hundred a rack (8 ball) last night, a player from another room had a fish. He was playing off to keep the guy hooked. The other guy went to the bathroom while the player was shooting (not a good idea). The player bobbled the 8, hanging it. He walked around the table and pulled all of the balls and put them at the racking end, then pocketed the money (which had been dropped in a pocket) as if he had won.

The other was just as blatant and the opponent was there at the time.
Two good players matched up playing 9 ball. It was a good match, but at one point, the player in question had a shot where his body was between the opponent and the shot. He was hooked and didn't have a good shot. So he just rolled the cue ball behind another ball, got up and walked over to sit down without a word. The opponent got up and ended up fouling. The player then ran out the table. (a bit of poetic justice here, the opponent ended up winning pretty big at the end).

Yes, both of these were caused by the opponent not paying attention, but the second one was one of the worst deliberate cases of cheating I have seen.

Jay M

Wally_in_Cincy
10-17-2002, 09:02 AM
A couple of guys from our 8-ball league were playing for fun. The non-shooter had his back turned, the shooter caught his 8-ball before it went into the side, thus avoiding a loss. The shooter (I think he's from Romania, he has a heavy accent) looks around to see if anybody's watching. Well I was watching and I called him on it. He was quite embarassed. Now every time I see him he shakes my hand and says "I no cheat no more, I no cheat no more!" LOL

Another question is: if you see it do you say something or keep your mouth shut?

SPetty
10-17-2002, 09:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Jay M:</font><hr> The player bobbled the 8, hanging it. He walked around the table and pulled all of the balls and put them at the racking end, then pocketed the money (which had been dropped in a pocket) as if he had won.

...

So he just rolled the cue ball behind another ball, got up and walked over to sit down without a word. The opponent got up and ended up fouling.

...but the second one was one of the worst deliberate cases of cheating I have seen.<hr></blockquote>Hi Jay,

I agree, the first case is simply cheating. But this second case looks like a guy simply not calling a foul on himself. The way you describe it hardly constitutes a deliberate case of cheating, unless maybe he rolled the cue ball with his hand?

I've seen the discussions here over and over on whether people call the foul on themselves, and a big handful of people here say that they will call it on themselves all the time, while others may depending on the circumstances and others will never call a foul on themselves.

But, there is no rule that says that you must call a foul on yourself if you foul, so where's the blatant cheating? Do you believe that if you foul and don't call it on yourself that you're cheating? The rules don't seem to support that position...

9 Ball Girl
10-17-2002, 10:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>
Another question is: if you see it do you say something or keep your mouth shut? <hr></blockquote>

That one is debatable (sp?). I've kept my mouth shut during some 9 ball tourneys just to stay out of what could be a BIG dispute. Especially if it's a money match. Sometimes, IMO, I think the players should know to ask the TD to come over and watch the hit instead of depending on the spectators. Then there are times when I will chirp up only if I'm asked and I know the players.

One time in a 9 ball tourney, 2 of my friends were playing against each other. In the middle of the game, player A goes to the bathroom and allows player B to keep shooting. A big NO NO in my book. Anyway, Player B scratches and puts the CB back up on the table. Player A returns and Player B never acknowledges the fact that he scratched. Well Player A lost that game to lose the match. I wasn't there for that one but I was told by someone who was there and I guess no one said anything. Then again, Player A should've known better, IMO.

Lester
10-17-2002, 10:14 AM
[
I agree, the first case is simply cheating. But this second case looks like a guy simply not calling a foul on himself. The way you describe it hardly constitutes a deliberate case of cheating, unless maybe he rolled the cue ball with his hand?

I've seen the discussions here over and over on whether people call the foul on themselves, and a big handful of people here say that they will call it on themselves all the time, while others may depending on the circumstances and others will never call a foul on themselves.

But, there is no rule that says that you must call a foul on yourself if you foul, so where's the blatant cheating? Do you believe that if you foul and don't call it on yourself that you're cheating? The rules don't seem to support that position...
<hr></blockquote>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Spetty, let me take the "high-ground" here. You should report your own foul because it is the morally right thing to do. However, I have noticed that everyone has their own "yardstick" on this. Personally, I believe that in order to play my best, I have to be "pure of heart", and fouling and not telling would make me NOT "pure of heart". If nothing else, the incident would creep into my thoughts on every shot from then on. JMHO ***Lester***

Cueless Joey
10-17-2002, 10:19 AM
Nothing worse than this car salesman (no offense lol) who I saw steal one game on the wire. This same person tried to cheat me $160 one time. We were playing for one hundred a set. I won. Then two hundred a set. I won. Then 400 a set. He dumped some cash in the corner pocker where we left the money all along. I won again. When we counted the money, it was $160 short. He swore he put down $400 in there.
Right.
I saw another cheat who had two balls stuck in the jaw of the tight corner pocket. He slammed on the rail HARD. Walked around the table and bumped it. One ball fell. He claimed he made the ball since he was still in the table.

9 Ball Girl
10-17-2002, 10:20 AM
I will call a foul on myself only cause, well, that's me. But I have been told that if the person I'm playing with doesn't notice that I fouled, then I shouldn't call it on myself because the other guy should've been paying attention. I've also been told that I shouldn't warn my opponent that he/she is about to shoot the wrong ball so that I can get bih. Well guess what, I warn them. It's a courtesy thing IMO.

Lester
10-17-2002, 10:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> I will call a foul on myself only cause, well, that's me. But I have been told that if the person I'm playing with doesn't notice that I fouled, then I shouldn't call it on myself because the other guy should've been paying attention. I've also been told that I shouldn't warn my opponent that he/she is about to shoot the wrong ball so that I can get bih. Well guess what, I warn them. It's a courtesy thing IMO. <hr></blockquote>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;No wonder you get your picture taken with Jeanette!!!!lol ***Lester***

Eric.
10-17-2002, 11:03 AM
Every once in awhile this comes up:

Opponent is stroking the cue, barely touches the Q ball, continues to shoot quickly before anyone can say anything.

Eric &gt;thinks if Les were more "Pure of Heart", he could pull Excaliber from the rock. ;-)

Sid_Vicious
10-17-2002, 11:41 AM
Well said,,,I'd know I did it and it would cost me somewhere down the road...sid

10-17-2002, 11:49 AM
Ball stealing playing one pocket. Even had it happen to me in tournaments, once by a world class player. It really bugged me, (hint hint)

Paul_Mon
10-17-2002, 12:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> I will call a foul on myself only cause, well, that's me. But I have been told that if the person I'm playing with doesn't notice that I fouled, then I shouldn't call it on myself because the other guy should've been paying attention. I've also been told that I shouldn't warn my opponent that he/she is about to shoot the wrong ball so that I can get bih. Well guess what, I warn them. It's a courtesy thing IMO. <hr></blockquote>

I think that you have to call fouls on yourself. It is possible that the only person who notices a cueball foul (ie. accidentally touching it during warm up stroke) is the shooter. Same with playing a safety, without a referee the closest one to the shot is the shooter.

Paul Mon

10-17-2002, 01:48 PM
I had a match last week where I must've been sleeping or something. The other guy fouled and everbody in the room noticed it but me. I didn't realize it until a couple of people told me. My wife said she was wondering what the heck I was doing. Luckily I still won the game.
Either way, it's more my fault for not watching closely enough. While I personally will call fouls on myself, I don't necessarily expect others to.

TomBrooklyn
10-17-2002, 01:49 PM
Quote: Wally_in_Cincy: Another question is: if you see it do you say something or keep your mouth shut?<hr></blockquote>Some things might not be completely clear, like if a ball is hanging and a player bumps the table to make it fall, in which case I might not do much. This is what I would do if I saw an obvioius cheat:

1) Tell the cheater I saw him and tell him what I am about to do. Explain to him that the same proceedure will apply whenever I see him anywhere in the future. Suggest he leave town or never play pool anywhere where I may see him ever again.
2) Tell his opponent what he did.
3) Tell every player and employee in the room what he did.
4) If I ever see him again in any pool hall, same as 3.
5) Sometimes I keep a camera in my car. If I have it, I would take his picture, make copies, and mail it to every pool hall in the area with an explanation of what he did.
6) If it was a well known player, post the story with his name on every pool board on the internet.

I consider cheating at a game amongst the most dispicable, low life things anyone could do.

=TB=

Drake
10-17-2002, 02:51 PM
I like Tom's Style!!! Cheating is right down there next drug dealing. Pool and Golf are the only two games you can call a foul on yourself. There is a local player who I always keep my eye on because he is know to cheat all the time. One of his chronic moves is after playing a while he will move the coin two diamonds instead of just once. In a set this is big move, when he does it by the game he just pisses me off and then I demand that we just start paying up after every game.

cheesemouse
10-17-2002, 03:10 PM
Tom,
I'm not sure I completely understood where your coming from.....LMAO... /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Once upon a time a friend was tell me of how in this match with player X they had a big tadoo about the score of race where they kept score with coins under the rail, that's the way most keep score in these parts. He lost the aurgument as all the people watching went along with the other guy...I told him this guy had a rep of doing this and all the people watching where members of his tribe...later I drew the same player X. Before the match I went to the TD and asked him if had anyone hanging around that would watch my match. I was willing to pay the guy $10 to do it. I got my guy and I told him to sit off to the side and keep score of the match real careful like.......Low and behold it happened just as it had come down with my friend...I had the whole deal busted and he couldn't cheat me out of a game...I won the match and he was talked to by the TD who told me he asked the guy to never come back to one of his events.....I was very proud of the bust.

Bob C
10-17-2002, 09:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Drake:</font><hr> I like Tom's Style!!! Cheating is right down there next drug dealing. Pool and Golf are the only two games you can call a foul on yourself. <hr></blockquote>

Actually Drake, I've seen it in tennis also. About 15 years ago in a regional tennis tournament a player is serving to stay in the set and his first serve at break-point is returned hard down the line for a clean winner and the first set. The server calmly called a foot-fault on himself and proceded to throw in a second serve before his dazed opponent could protest. The good guy won in the end, however.

Lester
10-18-2002, 08:11 AM
Jay, my biggest dilemmas come when I've made a split-ball shot, and I'm certain it was a good hit. But then I always think my opinion could be "biased". If the opponent believes otherwise, I concede the shot. Of course, if the sweators get into it, then it's "committee determined". ha ha ***Lester***

Eric.
10-18-2002, 08:22 AM
Using a cracked version that enables the use of tracking line to make you unbeatable? *wink,*wink

Eric &gt;I am the Tooth,the Fight,and Decay

SpiderMan
10-18-2002, 09:31 AM
That's sort of like making a ball but hooking yourself, then announcing "your shot, I didn't call it there".

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Bob C:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: Drake:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; I like Tom's Style!!! Cheating is right down there next drug dealing. Pool and Golf are the only two games you can call a foul on yourself. &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Actually Drake, I've seen it in tennis also. About 15 years ago in a regional tennis tournament a player is serving to stay in the set and his first serve at break-point is returned hard down the line for a clean winner and the first set. The server calmly called a foot-fault on himself and proceded to throw in a second serve before his dazed opponent could protest. The good guy won in the end, however. <hr></blockquote>

10-18-2002, 10:51 AM
There isn't one incident that stands out any more than any of the other cheat moves I've seen, but I can tell you that the biggest cheater I have ever played is King Kong from the L.A. area. That guy just consistantly cheats every chance he gets. It almost isn't even worth playing him because you have to pay so much attention to every move he makes.

TomBrooklyn
10-18-2002, 01:26 PM
Personally, I wouldn't play even one game of pool with a cheater any more than I would sleep with a leper. It would disgust me more than a leper as a leper didn't get that way by choice.

Luckily, I have found pool players to be very honorable by and large. Similar to dart players. I caught one guy pocket a ball with his hand on a bar table about 20 years ago, and I remember it with distaste to this day.

However, I don't get involved in big money games. Some people's morals may change when there is money on the line. Maybe they don't think of it as a game anymore. Tom

Harold Acosta
10-18-2002, 05:06 PM
Jay, there is no "cheating" in pool! People just have to be alert, watching the game and their opponent on every move!

Last night I lost two games to someone I consider a friend. In one game I didn't notice that the object ball nor the cue ball had reached the rail after the hit. I continued shooting and then hooked myself. I was told after the game what happened, I hadn't realized the BIH.

In the 2nd game, the 9 and 4 ball were close together, near center of table, with a space about the size of a cueball between the two, although the 9 ball was very slightly ahead of the 4 ball. My friend shoots hard making the 4 ball and pushing the nine to the corner pocket. By the way the balls were lined up, it was obvious he hit the 9 first. Did he call the foul? No. Did I call the foul? No, I let it slide and it cost me the game and eventually the set.

I'm not bothered by the fact that my friend didn't call the fouls; what bother's me is that I should have been paying more attention, and should have called the foul on the second game.

The match wasn't even close; he won 9-4 but those 2 games could have made a difference since it happened early in the match. It kept bugging me in the head.

Self assured, I'll know how to play my friend next time!