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rackmup
10-23-2002, 11:03 AM
The APA and the term "sandbagger" seem to be synonomous with each other. I have made it very clear (as have others) about how I feel about the practice of "sandbagging" in any league or tournament.

Using the APA as an example, a new player, never having played in an APA league, has the option ("option" defined here as "taking advantage of the rules") of entering league play at a skill level well below that of their actual talents.

While I find no pride or honor in doing so, it is apparent others do. I have mentioned the APA division that OnePocketChamp competes in here on Monday nights (out of Fox & Hound.) I've attended many of his matches and observed his team. They play "all out" and the Captain (Rudy) never asks a player to "lay down" for the sake of keeping a skill level down.

It's a shame that others don't subscribe to those same ethical values. OPC's division now has a new team in it whose players are all new to the APA. Two that I know of play at a 6 or 7 s/l. I'm told the remainder of the roster play fairly strong as well.

Last night, at our BCA league, one of these players was present and bragging about how they "goofed off last night to keep our handicaps low." I had to ask this player "where is the pride in sandbagging?" He just laughed. I asked again "Just how important is that trophy at the end of the season if you have to cheat and take advantage of the rules to win?" His response?: "We don't care about the trophy. The last league we trophied in, we left the trophies in the parking lot."

Admirable, huh?

While the trophy isn't important to them, it might be to the team that is comprised of 4's, 5's and maybe a 6.

I guess victory to some is simply as littered with trash as the unethical path that led them to it.

Do any of you play against teams/players like this who have no regard for playing on the "up-and-up"? Have you ever said anything to them and if so, what was their "defense"?

This really hurts a league in the long run and the L.O. should be monitoring this if complaints are received.

Regards,

Ken

Fred Agnir
10-23-2002, 11:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: rackmup:</font><hr> Do any of you play against teams/players like this who have no regard for playing on the "up-and-up"? Have you ever said anything to them and if so, what was their "defense"?<hr></blockquote>

Let me preface my answer by saying that I'm a league veteran with 15 years (as of this coming January) of league play. That includes over a decade of APA play.

That being said, regardless of what handicapped system there is, there will be a percentage of people attempting to manipulate the system. However, I think that the blatant sandbagging scenario is grossly misrepresented and mythified.

I've commented before that there will be a disparity between skill levels when comparing different areas/regions to another. Sandbagging, therefore, will be the outcry when, say, one SL-6 in area "A" would easily be an SL-7 in area "B." This becomes more evident at National or multi-reginal events. There was a guy in my area who was an SL-5, but got bumped to an SL-7 in the Nationals and got DQ'ed. He had a tough time winning in my area as an SL-5, so he got screwed. The rest of the APA nation said "good, they caught another sandbagger." Ridiculous.

Another thing is when people will catch a player when they're hot. All of us amateurs go through a swing of play from piss poor to red hot. Sandbagging is always the outcry when you catch someone on the good end. Sandbagging is also the outcry when they're shooting piss poor. It's a no win situation.

Then there's the self-proclaimed sandbagger. This is usually an ego jerk off in an attempt to excuse a loss. "I wanted to keep my handicap down" is the usual claim by those who couldn't keep it up in the first place. "I'm really a SL-6, but I wanna keep my handicap down as an SL-3." Yeah, right.

The way the APA formula is today, winning percentage is a player in the handicap, aside with innings/win ratio and oither things. If you are truly sandbagging,then there's a good chance you're truly losing. Kind of hard to make it to higher level tournaments if you're losing.

Fred

10-23-2002, 11:44 AM
Ken

I have to agree with you on the "merits" of sandbagging. It is a form of cheating which unfortunately in the APA has become not only acceptable, but necessary. In order to do well in the APA, a team needs to have at least one (if not more) strong 2/3 on their team. As a result, team captains encourage players to lose, up innings, hide their true skill level in order to keep them at their low handicap. I'm not agreeing with this, but unfortuately as we all know this goes on. I guess getting the free trip to Vegas is more important than playing fair.

I do have a story about how a team that didn't sandbag or cheat was able to win. A couple years ago, I joined a team which won the division in the summer season, which made us eligible for the citys almost 9 months later. As the season progressed forward, my handicap as well as 3 other members of my team all got raised. By the time we got to the citys, out of 8 of us, only 3 people maintained their origional handicap from the beginning of the year, and one of those people was the captain ranked as a 7 (so he couldn't go up). In the Citys, my captain was ineligible to play due to fact our only 3 got bumped to a 4 the week before the Citys. Going in, we were the least favorites to win, we didn't even get the luxury of recieving a bye for the first round. Somehow, we won and recieved the trip to Vegas. When we got to Vegas we discovered that our 4 had been lowered back to a 3 (which is the true handicap in my opinion) which made it possible for our captain to play.

Anyway, while in Vegas, we won a few rounds and by the 2nd day, I got bumped again. In my first match after I got raised, my team was up 2-0. In this position, it would have been the prime time for my captian to tell me to lose so my handicap would go back down, but instead, my captain took me aside and told me to play my game and try my best and the team is backing me. That's all I needed to hear. I won my match and our team moved on. Now the other little complication was that another of my teammates had been raised as well and two more of our playes was right on the cusp of being raised. In Vegas, if 3 or more members of a team get raised during the tournament, the team gets disqualified. Even knowing all this, my captain was not going to tell me to lose my match. He wanted all of us to play fair and try our best. As a team we placed higher than any other team from our area. Many have argued that perhaps we were all underhandicapped before going to Vegas, but those who know us know that was not the case. We won fairly and fought with heart. So for all those people who think that the only way to win is by sandbagging, that's not always the case.

SPetty
10-23-2002, 11:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: rackmup:</font><hr> Using the APA as an example, a new player, never having played in an APA league, has the option ("option" defined here as "taking advantage of the rules") of entering league play at a skill level well below that of their actual talents.<hr></blockquote>I'm not sure it's an "option" unless you're a well known player or in the business somehow.

When I joined the APA, I learned that everyone who first joins comes in as a skill level 3 (female) or 4 (male), and then you get moved from there based on your performance.

I know there are exceptions - when randyg joined APA, he was made an immediate 7 and could never be lower than a 7, but that's because he was a well known instructor with a reputation.

I don't think you, the player, really has the option to change your skill level except via your performance. So when you find your APA team, you'll probably come onto the team as a skill level 4 and go from there.

TomBrooklyn
10-23-2002, 11:53 AM
Quote: rackmup: Using the APA as an example, a new player, never having played in an APA league, has the option ("option" defined here as "taking advantage of the rules") of entering league play at a skill level well below that of their actual talents.<hr></blockquote>The APA has only been in Brooklyn for a few months and I have only participated in it since it came here, so I don't know how it works everywhere. And I think Ross, the LO, is refining his policies as he goes along and gains experience also.

It was and as far as I know still is the policy, that all men come in as a 4 and women as a 3. However, it doesn't take long for a player to wind up at his appropriate skill level. We had a player join our team as the usual 4 and be made a 6 for the nexts week match. This turned out to be an overreaction to his excellent play on his first night, as he settled in as a 5, albeit a good 5, a few weeks later.

Bear in mind that the LO usually doesn’t know or have clear verification about the skill level of every player that joins the league. I think if a player is clearly known to be much stronger than a four, he would probably be brought in as a 5 or possibly a 6. I suspect he would have to be indisputably known as a very strong 7 to be brought in as a 7. =TB=

10-23-2002, 12:03 PM
As has been stated by others more eloquently already, the usual rationale for sandbagging is that it is necessary in order to be competitive at the national level. As a result, the integrity of the local league is compromised in order to go to Vegas where you can win some "real" money. The irony is that once you divide your prize money between eight guys and then deduct your expenses, unless you finish at the very top, you aren't really making any money at all. You are, in actuality, just taking a reasonably(?) priced "pool vacation" with your friends. So, these sandbaggers are really sacrificing their own integrity and the health of the local league for what amounts to vanity.

=k=
10-23-2002, 12:06 PM
hello fred.. do you have any empty spots in your leauge? i am afraid in our's we have a few bad apples.. out of ten teams, two of the teams are sandbaggers.. for example.. team a has three players that were for three sessions rated 6-6-5 now they are rated 4-3-3 yes they dump games, but still keep in the middle of the race until the last few games of session and usally make play off and then really pour it on.. our number one team 7-6-4-3-3 did not even win one game (not talking about matches) i understand one player hot.. but whole team? not likely.. oh well we enjoy playing the rest of the leauge.. ken i confess i did say something to one of the players.. when he missed a fairly hard shot, i said i know why you are rated a three... kinda a shark move.. damn me and my big mouth,, i didn't win another game..

rackmup
10-23-2002, 12:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: SPetty:</font><hr>I don't think you, the player, really has the option to change your skill level except via your performance.<hr></blockquote>

You can choose to come in at any level you choose. When I joined the APA in Phoenix, I was asked to play at the level of a 4 by my team captain (who was a 6) and I declined as I routinely beat him. I joined as a 6 and remained at that level for two sessions.

Regards,

Ken

Fred Agnir
10-23-2002, 12:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: =k=:</font><hr> team a has three players that were for three sessions rated 6-6-5 now they are rated 4-3-3 yes they dump games, <hr></blockquote>
Not saying that this didn't happen, but the way you've described it, as of a few years ago, this was reportedly impossible. There was (and presumably is) a "lowest attainable handicap" rule that at a maximum is one less than your highest handicap achieved. You also can't go lower than your SL at the Nationals. Someone please correct me if I have that mistaken.

All the reported changes in the APA are geared towards easy raising, difficult lowering. Teams have to split up due to raising handicaps and the 23 rule, and therefore, new members have to be added to the entire APA conglomerate.

Fred

rackmup
10-23-2002, 12:26 PM
My gripe isn't with the APA and how they do things. The APA sets the guidelines and the L.O.'s are the one's that have to monitor the situation.

What gripes me is really...just how important is a piece of plastic glued to a walnut base and for that matter, a trip to Las Vegas really worth? Yes...to go to Vegas is cool but wouldn't you really prefer to earn it rather than steal it?

Regards,

Ken (and I'm still trying to find an APA team to play on...glutton for punishment I guess)

TomBrooklyn
10-23-2002, 12:31 PM
Quote: Fred Agnir:
Another thing is when people will catch a player when they're hot. Sandbagging is always the outcry.<hr></blockquote> I play as well as I can every week and no one has ever asked me to lay down. A few weeks ago I shut out a player one skill level above me and won my hill game with an eight on the snap. I got a post match comment from a few people on their team that I should be at least one, but probably two skill levels up from where I was. In fact, I was raised to the next skill level the next week. A couple of weeks later, after losing to the same S/L and myself getting shut-out by someone one SL lower, I wound up back at my former SL.

In the meantime, these comments I got from people who had never seen me play before had at least the appearance of an implication that I was sandbagging. While I retained a pleasant demeanor at the time, I now realize I made a mistake by not challenging them directly. To be accuse someone of sandbagging is a demeaning insult not to be taken or which shouldn't be made lightly. Perhaps some persons who don't think so have such low integrity or self esteem themselves that they think everyone else does also, or they are so used to being insulted themselves that they think little of insulting others.

While I realize sandbagging really happens sometimes, anyone who accuses someone of sandbagging ought to be damn sure of it before they make that accusation. At a minimum this requires seeing the suspected person play several times on different days. Otherwise the accusers can easily be dismissed as ASSumers, sorelosers, sour-grapers, poor-sports and socially inept.

=TB=

WaltVA
10-23-2002, 12:36 PM
=k=; The team that had 6-6-5 players for three sessions that are now 4-4-3; how did your LO explain that? The "Lowest Attainable" rule (Rule 26) says, "Once you have 10 League matches on record or you have been assigned a skill level (therefore, an established skill level), you will not be allowed to drop more than one skill level,except for the rare instances of physical disability or other extreme circumstances which might permanently change your true ability. This is known as the "lowest attainable" rule."

IMO, this is something that should be questioned at the local level first, and if there is no good answer, at the National level.

Locally, we had a 6 who was in a bad motorcycle accident, lost a lot of range of motion in one arm, and went back to a 4 while in rehab. He has since recovered and is back to his former handicap. That's the only case I know of where someone has gone down 2 S/L's.

Walt in VA

rackmup
10-23-2002, 12:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TomBrooklyn:</font><hr>Anyone who accuses someone of sandbagging better be damn sure of it before they make that accusation; otherwise they identify themselves as ASSuming, sore-losing, sour-graping, poor-sporting, socially dysfunctional un-human beings. <hr></blockquote>

Amen!

Regards,

Ken

=k=
10-23-2002, 12:43 PM
hello again fred.. i have heard the same thing that you can't go lower than a level played at national level, but if you can find it in writting that a player can't drop more than one level, please send it to me as i will have a heart to heart talk to leauge director.. it would be a good rule in my opion.. k

Wally_in_Cincy
10-23-2002, 12:49 PM
I wouldn't say they're synonymous, although it does go on to some degree. It's a difficult thing to pull off, so most players just play because sandbagging is just such a PITA /ccboard/images/icons/laugh.gif

In our league there are maybe 8 or 10 individuals that do it (out of about 500). Then there's that team we played Monday. These folks will do anything to win. They played a total of about 24 safeties Monday and didn't mark ANY on the scoresheet. I told my captain he shouldn't sign it.

The APA is for fun, I wish people would treat it that way.

Wally_in_Cincy
10-23-2002, 12:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: WaltVA:</font><hr> =k=; The team that had 6-6-5 players for three sessions that are now 4-4-3; how did your LO explain that? The "Lowest Attainable" rule (Rule 26) says, "Once you have 10 League matches on record or you have been assigned a skill level (therefore, an established skill level), you will not be allowed to drop more than one skill level,except for the rare instances of physical disability or other extreme circumstances which might permanently change your true ability. This is known as the "lowest attainable" rule."

IMO, this is something that should be questioned at the local level first, and if there is no good answer, at the National level.

Locally, we had a 6 who was in a bad motorcycle accident, lost a lot of range of motion in one arm, and went back to a 4 while in rehab. He has since recovered and is back to his former handicap. That's the only case I know of where someone has gone down 2 S/L's.

Walt in VA <hr></blockquote>

We had a 7 go to a 5 after eye problems. It was a legitimate move.

Ross
10-23-2002, 12:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: Fred Agnir:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; Another thing is when people will catch a player when they're hot. All of us amateurs go through a swing of play from piss poor to red hot. Sandbagging is always the outcry when you catch someone on the good end.&lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt; I play as well as I can every week and no one has ever asked me to lay down. A few weeks ago I shut out a player one skill level above me and won my hill game with an eight on the snap. I got a post match comment from a few people on their team that I should be at least one, but probably two skill levels up from where I was. In fact, I was raised to the next skill level the next week. A couple of weeks later, after losing to the same S/L and myself getting shut by someone one SL lower, I wound up back at my former SL.

In the meantime, with these comments I got by people who had never seen me play except that one time, there was at least the appearance of an implication that I was sandbagging. While I retained a pleasant demeanor at the time, I now realize I made a mistake by not challenging them directly to say outright whether they thought I was sandbagging, and if they said did say so, then told them they could collectively kiss my ass, and not to ever come near me again unless they wanted to discuss it futher out back or to apologize.

Anyone who accuses someone of sandbagging better be damn sure of it before they make that accusation; otherwise they identify themselves as ASSuming, sore-losing, sour-graping, poor-sporting, socially dysfunctional un-human beings.

=TB=
<hr></blockquote>

I also used to get those sandbagging accusations frequently when I had a good match, and I'm sure it was said behind my back even more often. It bugged me somewhat since I never layed down and in fact my goal was to reach the highest s/l possible. Finally, I'm at the top rank (in 8-ball) so I don't have to listen to that crap anymore.

Obviously some players do intentionally sandbag, but the perceptions and accusations of sandbagging -- even when it doesn't happen -- causes as many hard feelings as the real thing, IMO. Actually, real sandbagging bothers me less than false accusations. I know real baggers may get a little edge in winning a trip to Vegas (wowie-zowie) but they are the losers, in my view, since they pay for it by selling a bit of their soul for a very cheap price.

WaltVA
10-23-2002, 01:01 PM
Wally - Our LO has made it known that if he receives 2 score sheets, with NO safeties on one and safeties marked on the other, he will take the # of marked safeties as correct. This has made score keepers much more "safety-conscious."

Walt in VA

Fred Agnir
10-23-2002, 01:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: =k=:</font><hr> hello again fred.. i have heard the same thing that you can't go lower than a level played at national level, but if you can find it in writting that a player can't drop more than one level, please send it to me as i will have a heart to heart talk to leauge director.. it would be a good rule in my opion.. k <hr></blockquote>
Download a copy of the APA manual

<a target="_blank" href=http://www.poolplayers.com/materials.html>http://www.poolplayers.com/materials.html</a>

It's Rule 26 - Lowest Attainable Rule.

Fred

=k=
10-23-2002, 01:48 PM
hello all!
i went out to the truck and got my rule book and you all are correct.. rule 26 was very plain. now i have to go home and see if i can find weekly records.. thanks all to imput.it's the reason i love this place. &gt;&gt;K&lt;&lt;

p.s. you all stick by me and get me up to a sl 7 and i won't have to worry about sandbagging remarks.. LOL K

Alfie
10-23-2002, 04:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> In the meantime, with these comments I got by people who had never seen me play except that one time, there was at least the appearance of an implication that I was sandbagging. While I retained a pleasant demeanor at the time, I now realize I made a mistake by not challenging them directly to say outright whether they thought I was sandbagging, and if they said did say so, then told them they could collectively kiss my @ss, and not to ever come near me again unless they wanted to discuss it futher out back or to apologize. <hr></blockquote> Ahhhh ... league night.

Alfie
10-23-2002, 04:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: WaltVA:</font><hr> Wally - Our LO has made it known that if he receives 2 score sheets, with NO safeties on one and safeties marked on the other, he will take the # of marked safeties as correct. This has made score keepers much more "safety-conscious."
Walt in VA <hr></blockquote> I thought YOU were the league operator.

Alfie
10-23-2002, 05:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Fred Agnir:</font><hr> The way the APA formula is today, winning percentage is a player in the handicap, aside with innings/win ratio and oither things. <hr></blockquote> Does anybody know exactly how the win percentage figures in?

stickman
10-23-2002, 06:24 PM
The team that I played Monday comes to mind. A SL5 on there team was matched up against a 4 from our team. The guy was very obviously playing off. He was missing shots that a SL2 wouldn't miss. No way the shots he was missing were accidental! I played a SL2. This girl had killed me previously, running 7 and 8 balls at a time, playing three rail and two rail kicks to get out of my safeties. This time I was determined to get some revenge. She is still terribly underrated, but I put together one of my best games to beat her. I figured if I didn't let her get to the table, she couldn't do me any harm. score=15-5. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

bluewolf
10-23-2002, 07:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: stickman:</font><hr> The team that I played Monday comes to mind. A SL5 on there team was matched up against a 4 from our team. The guy was very obviously playing off. He was missing shots that a SL2 wouldn't miss. No way the shots he was missing were accidental! I played a SL2. This girl had killed me previously, running 7 and 8 balls at a time, playing three rail and two rail kicks to get out of my safeties. This time I was determined to get some revenge. She is still terribly underrated, but I put together one of my best games to beat her. I figured if I didn't let her get to the table, she couldn't do me any harm. score=15-5. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif <hr></blockquote>

Sounds like that two is a sandbagger. But we have at least 3 good twos in our league. My defense game is ahead of my offense game, so the innings are often very high, but I will need some serious practice in pocketing balls...

and to keep this apa sandbagging related, I have complained that they dont record enough of my defensive shots. I feel good that I am doing well enough that it usually comes down to the last ball, but dont think it is right to turn in 15 innings in a game when 8 of those were safeties.

Since the apa considers innings and % winnings, it is almost like the captain is sandbagging me even though I am just trying to do my best.


bw

Fred Agnir
10-24-2002, 08:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: stickman:</font><hr> The team that I played Monday comes to mind. A SL5 on there team was matched up against a 4 from our team. The guy was very obviously playing off. He was missing shots that a SL2 wouldn't miss. No way the shots he was missing were accidental! I played a SL2. This girl had killed me previously, running 7 and 8 balls at a time, playing three rail and two rail kicks to get out of my safeties. This time I was determined to get some revenge. She is still terribly underrated, but I put together one of my best games to beat her. I figured if I didn't let her get to the table, she couldn't do me any harm. score=15-5. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif <hr></blockquote>


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: bluewolf:</font><hr> Sounds like that two is a sandbagger. <hr></blockquote>

Stick and Laura. This is exactly what I'm talking about. You both have perpetuated the myth. Stick, you beat that SL-2 who was running 7 or 8 balls, so how is she underated? Isn't a proper handicap one that ends up as a 50/50 proposition? Aren't you saying you're 50/50 against her?

Laura, you are way too inexperienced to make such a judgement, don't you think? I'm not saying that sandbagging doesn't happen, but just from this post, there's no solid evidence, yet you both are ready to make such an accusation. Just like crappy bar rules, the cry of sandbagging spreads like a dirty rumor.


Fred

10-24-2002, 10:26 AM
A genuine two shouldn't even be able to visualize a two or three rail kick, much less execute it successfully, unless coached by an experienced player. So, unless there was a time out in which she was directed through the shot, the claim of sandbagging is legitimate, IMO.
I often see twos and threes executing multiple rail kicks and masse's. In my opinion, that is not characteristic of a novice which is what the s/l two and three handicaps are intended to signify.

WaltVA
10-24-2002, 10:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Alfie:</font><hr> &lt; I thought YOU were the league operator. <hr></blockquote>

Nope - Just another 10-yr. veteran of the league wars.

Walt in VA

Fred Agnir
10-24-2002, 10:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr>
I often see twos and threes executing multiple rail kicks and masse's. In my opinion, that is not characteristic of a novice which is what the s/l two and three handicaps are intended to signify. <hr></blockquote>

If you *often* see 2's and 3's executing multi-rail kicks, how can you come up with the opinion that those skills *aren't* a characteristic of a 2 or 3?

You're in the same denial trap. Suggesting sandbagging is the easiest out.

Fred &lt;~~~ knows many 2's and 3's that can once in a while kick and hit a 3-railer, but can't make two straight shots in a row to save their life.

stickman
10-24-2002, 10:58 AM
No myth here, Fred. I was very motivated and played well above my level this time. The only way I beat her was to continue to make balls and not let her to the table. She still made some good runs. Do you honestly think a true skill level 2 player plays this way? If it was done once, I'd be surprised, but I've seen this girl play more than once or twice, and she can do it at will. A true 2 could not do that. I stand by my opinion that she is terribly underated, and respectfully disagree. In the five years I've played APA, I've never seen a SL2 display these skills. I don't make a fuss over it, I just play my game and go on, but I DO recognize a sandbagger when I see one. Can I prove it? Probably not, but that doesn't necessarily make it untrue. I play for enjoyment, and won't let others lack of ethics spoil my enjoyment.

~~~~~Not worked up, just making an observation. As you say, we all know it exists.

rackmup
10-24-2002, 11:05 AM
Fred,

Let me say this isn't an attempt to start a debate about what a sandbagger is and isn't but you somewhat contradict yourself:

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Fred Agnir:</font><hr>If you *often* see 2's and 3's executing multi-rail kicks, how can you come up with the opinion that those skills *aren't* a characteristic of a 2 or 3?
<hr></blockquote>

We as accomplished players know the difficulty of consistent multi-rail kicks. There is no way to truthfully deny that. It requires an intricate knowledge of different aiming systems and absent that, the gift from God that you are a superior player that can simply eye a shot and pull it off.

Then you close your post with:

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Fred Agnir:</font><hr>Fred &lt;~~~ knows many 2's and 3's that can once in a while kick and hit a 3-railer, but can't make two straight shots in a row to save their life.<hr></blockquote>

How can it be that you can justify someone who consistently makes multi-rail kicks as a legitimate low skill level player and then state you know many low skill level players that cannot make two straight shots in a row?

Any s/l 2 or 3, repeatedly making multi-rail kick shots is not a true 2 or 3!

Respectfully,

Ken

Fred Agnir
10-24-2002, 11:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: stickman:</font><hr> A true 2 could not do that. <hr></blockquote>

In the APA system, you cannot be an SL-2 if you have a winning percentage greater than 50% (in 8-ball). What does that mean? If that person is truly sandbagging, then they are losing greater than 50% of their matches. Keep that in mind when making the accusations of which you are so sure.

There are many reasons why amateurs fail at pool. Not every 2 looks the same. I had a male player on my team that was a 2 for a couple sessions before I had enough of him. He could make shots, banks, kicks, and combos. But every third or fourth shot, he came completely unglued and could never win. Chalk it up to nerves, experience and overall brain malfunction. And without the ability to win a match, his handicap would not go up. Plain and simple. Guess what? Guys in your shoes called him a sandbagger. A sandbagger that won all of one freakin' match in two sessions. And the one match he somehow lucked out, I'm sure the guy/gal he beat called him a sandbagger, too.

A person's skill level in the APA is not based on which shot they can execute, how smooth their stroke is, or how much mental prowess they have.

Fred

stickman
10-24-2002, 11:30 AM
If we were playing 8ball, I wouldn't be so sure. I mean it's possible to draw position on another shot accidently. We are playing 9ball, and I've never seen a skill level 2 player run 8 balls playing position on each shot, and miss the 9. I saw this girl do this to me in one of our matches. You're welcome to believe as you wish, but I'll still believe something is wrong here. She absolutely annihilated me the last time we played. Other teams play matches in the Pool hall where we play. I've seen her playing against other teams, and her skill is quite evident. I'm not consumed enough by it to worry what her win/loss ratio is. As I said, it's not a biggy to me. I'm there to enjoy playing.

10-24-2002, 11:47 AM
Fred, I do think you have a good point when you say that people use the idea of the opponent's "sandbagging" as an excuse to deny their own responsibilty for a loss. I agree that it is a very common practice and a form of sour grapes. But, I do think that there are criteria that can be used to identify sandbaggers such as quality of shot selection, pattern play, stroke mechanics and certain types of shot execution. Win percentage and innings tell next to nothing about a player's skill level. I still assert that if a two or a three successfully executes an intentional masse, a multi-rail kick, a jump shot etc., without guidance, that there is some question about the legitimacy of their handicap.

rackmup
10-24-2002, 11:48 AM
You can play your 2 or 3 rated players only now and then, allow them to kick butt now and then, sit them down now and then and the only thing that isn't now and then is their s/l 2 or 3 rating because if you employ the above strategy, they will remain a 2 or 3 because they play so infrequently and win only when their team needs (and tells) them to. It's that simple.

It's in the "APA Underground Sandbagging Handbook". I'll post a few pages from it here in days to come.

Regards,

Ken (the "APA Underground Sandbagging Handbook" was available in very limited print and the manuscript was destroyed in a subsequent TAP League S.W.A.T. raid. I'm lucky to have it. It exposes EVERY little dirty trick)

Fred Agnir
10-24-2002, 12:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: rackmup:</font><hr> &gt;

How can it be that you can justify someone who consistently makes multi-rail kicks as a legitimate low skill level player and then state you know many low skill level players that cannot make two straight shots in a row?

Any s/l 2 or 3, repeatedly making multi-rail kick shots is not a true 2 or 3!


<hr></blockquote>
How can I justify it? It is what it is. There are some people who have zero clue how to run or even make balls, but for some odd reason can kick to make a hit. Don't ask me, as I'm as stunned as anyone else. You may have your perception,wants, or wishes as to what an SL-2 should be or could be. The fact is that in the APA, it's all about winning percentage (for an SL-2), not how they look or what they can execute at what times. Your perceived notion as to what you believe an SL-2 should do is exactly why I say that the idea of sandbagging is mythified. If the player does something beyond your perceived definition, you label them as a sandbagger. That's not fair to anyone, and it's more often than not simply incorrect. Not every SL-2 plays the same. Therein lies the problem with trying to define a very low handicapper. Some have, believe it or not, tremendous safety games (read Bluewolf's posts), but simply can't run balls. They lose. Some can make great shots, but can't ever get to the next ball.They lose. Some just plain choke after they make a couple of balls due to the increasing pressure. They lose. That's why they're low handicaps.


Maybe you need to read that first quote of mine. I was asking a question about someone else's contradictory statement.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Fred:</font><hr>If you *often* see 2's and 3's executing multi-rail kicks, how can you come up with the opinion that those skills *aren't* a characteristic of a 2 or 3? <hr></blockquote>

I'll ask again, if you or anyone *often* see 2's and 3's executing 3-rail kicks, how can you say those skill aren't characteristic of a 2 or 3 given that you just said you *often* see it in 2's and 3's. Isn't *that* the contradiction? Isn't what you actually *see* food for defining what characterizes a low handicap player?

If someone can sometimes make a 3-rail hit, but will dog the easiest shot every inning (very typical of the inconsistent nature of low handicap players), they're not going to make it too far. It happens all the time. I guarantee it'll happen tonight in every bar league in the country.


Fred &lt;~~~ not saying that sandbagging doesn't exist

10-24-2002, 12:43 PM
Hi, Tom:

The APA system you've quoted only works if all players play their strongest games all the time.

The reality, though, is that they don't. I have played on an A-P-A team, and I was quickly moved to a 6. As a few seasons went on, I directly heard members of many teams BRAGGING about how they intentionally miss or throw matches to keep their rating down. I quit the league because I was sick of the cheating and didn't want to sink to cheating myself just to make things fair.

The rating system at A-P-A is based largely on how many innings it takes to clear the table, and how many (if any) safety plays are involved. Now I can break and run out a good portion of the time. However, if I were trying to cheat the system, I could easily "miss" a ball in a way that looks like I *tried* to make it...because I knew that missing it would result in a safety anyway and would keep my rating from jumping. If I were trying to cheat, I could intentionally lose a game or two to make the match appear much closer than it would be if I played at my actual ability level.

I know guys from my pool hall that play on a number of APA teams....they are very strong players. But recreational players in the APA league who don't frequent the pool hall, so they don't know. These guys are all just looking to get the free trip to Vegas, so they don't care about improving their rating...in fact, they don't want to, because it may jeopardize their chances. I can name six different teams that exist right now where this is true.

I agree with Fred that it is a bit premature to cry "sandbagger" just because someone makes a good shot, but Fred, the reason that cry comes up so often is because it is TRUE so often.

aldewey

Fred Agnir
10-24-2002, 01:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: aldewey :</font><hr> I agree with Fred that it is a bit premature to cry "sandbagger" just because someone makes a good shot, but Fred, the reason that cry comes up so often is because it is TRUE so often.<hr></blockquote>
That's fair. Maybe I should have said that "sandbagging" is overstated and that a lot of unfortunately perceived sandbagging isn't.

Fred

10-24-2002, 01:28 PM
Fred &lt;~~~ not saying that sandbagging doesn't exist

If I am following your reasoning correctly then it would be impossible to identify when someone is sandbagging or even to distinquish between ANY of the skill levels EXCEPT by win/loss percentage (which we all acknowlege can be manipulated).

bluewolf
10-24-2002, 01:33 PM
i think that sometimes calling someone sandbagging is just an excuse for losing. i know because i have done it myself. i know that sandbagging does happen, but sometimes the other player is having a good night and playing very well.

otoh, one of my team players who is a five (not ww and not the captain) said 'it would be great to have as a two in the tournament'. and he is the one who doesnt mark my safeties as defensive shots.

bw

bluewolf
10-24-2002, 01:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Stick and Laura. This is exactly what I'm talking about. You both have perpetuated the myth. Stick, you beat that SL-2 who was running 7 or 8 balls, so how is she underated? Isn't a proper handicap one that ends up as a 50/50 proposition? Aren't you saying you're 50/50 against her?

Laura, you are way too inexperienced to make such a judgement, don't you think? I'm not saying that sandbagging doesn't happen, but just from this post, there's no solid evidence, yet you both are ready to make such an accusation. Just like crappy bar rules, the cry of sandbagging spreads like a dirty rumor.


Fred

<hr></blockquote>

Thanks Fred.I can always count on you for useful insight.The four I thought was a sandbagging four when I played him, played my captain (who is a legit strong four) a couple of weeks ago.It turns out he was playing his best when he played me. He was shooting good and deserved to win.

bw

bluewolf
10-24-2002, 01:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> A genuine two shouldn't even be able to visualize a two or three rail kick, much less execute it successfully, unless coached by an experienced player. So, unless there was a time out in which she was directed through the shot, the claim of sandbagging is legitimate, IMO.
I often see twos and threes executing multiple rail kicks and masse's. In my opinion, that is not characteristic of a novice which is what the s/l two and three handicaps are intended to signify. <hr></blockquote>

i can visualize a three rail kick but rarely can execute one and got a bank shot on my last game. i am a very good safety player too. but am a two because i did not get the 8 in first and my ball pocketing percentage is very low. just have to believe i will get better in time.

rackmup
10-24-2002, 01:51 PM
Let me put it in simpler terms:

Assume you have a player who is a S/L 7 and has been for several sessions. Let's also assume that another team has a S/L 3 or 4 that rarely plays (let's say he usually keeps score) but when your team plays his team, that 3 or 4 always gives your legit 7 a tough game by executing strong safties, multi-rail kicks and difficult banks.

Is that 3 or 4 a sandbagger or not (in your opinion)?

Regards,

Ken

Fred Agnir
10-24-2002, 01:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> Fred &lt;~~~ not saying that sandbagging doesn't exist

If I am following your reasoning correctly then it would be impossible to identify when someone is sandbagging or even to distinquish between ANY of the skill levels EXCEPT by win/loss percentage (which we all acknowlege can be manipulated). <hr></blockquote>
Something like that, but I was talking about SL-2's which is the most win/loss percentage dependent skill level (as far as APA 8-ball is concerned). Win/loss record at a particular handicap is very indicative. If a person is 90+% as an SL-6, but the moment he goes up to an SL-7 he's at &lt; 50%, you have an idea where he is: a strong SL-6. It would be unfair to call him a sandbagging SL-7 (though people will do it), because he isn't winning at that higher level. An SL-2, as I've said before, becomes an SL-3 if they have a winning record.

Everyone of course can have their own opinion as to who they think is "sandbagging," but all too often they're laughably wrong. Surely you or Ken or Stick have been accused of sandbagging when you've been playing far better or far worse than normal.

The best system that I know of is the NPL system, a system divided with numbers from 0-200. Professional-caliber player are at a minimum of around 110. If you win, you go up, if you lose you go down. It's only about winning. The progressive handicap system (spot another ball if you win, reduce the spot by a ball if you lose) is based on the same principle. It's not like the APA where if you win, you can stay the same. The notion that that there are 7 or 9 skill levels in pool is the root of the sandbagging issue. A "2" should and does encompass quite a range of skill levels and can be confusing as to "what is a 2" if you're comparison is a crappy 2 who can't hold a stick, and a 2 that can. They're both still 2's, but one happens to be a ton better than the other. That range of skills per skill level is the same issue at the other levels as well. The problem occurs when you try to compare two of the same SL that are at opposite ends of the range.


Fred

rackmup
10-24-2002, 01:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: aldewey:</font><hr>I agree with Fred that it is a bit premature to cry "sandbagger" just because someone makes a good shot, but Fred, the reason that cry comes up so often is because it is TRUE so often.<hr></blockquote>
I agree!

Regards,

Ken (Fred...is your team perhaps comprised of a few sandbaggers?)

10-24-2002, 02:00 PM
In addittion, we can never perceive objective reality except through the filter of our physical senses and the act of measuring the phenomena alters the behavior of the objects being perceived. SO, what the hell, it's all subjective interpretation of reality anyway. I'm calling my league operator and getting my handicap lowered! :-)

Fred Agnir
10-24-2002, 02:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: rackmup:</font><hr> Let me put it in simpler terms:

Assume you have a player who is a S/L 7 and has been for several sessions. Let's also assume that another team has a S/L 3 or 4 that rarely plays (let's say he usually keeps score) but when your team plays his team, that 3 or 4 always gives your legit 7 a tough game by executing strong safties, multi-rail kicks and difficult banks.

Is that 3 or 4 a sandbagger or not (in your opinion)?

Regards,

Ken <hr></blockquote>
You don't have to put it in simpler terms, Ken. I know the drill. That's why I prefaced my first post the way I did. In simple terms, amateurs are inconsistent. There are two guys in my league that I have losing records to who are middle of the roaders, but have always played well against me. They admit to getting up for my game, and falling apart against others. Others admit to completely folding long before they step up to the table. So goes the mental game.

I've seen both to know that their best game is as good as anyone's, but their average game is... average. One is an SL-4, and the other is an SL-5 in APA 8-ball. The league we play in that I'm talking about is BCA, so I'm talking games played over the past several years, plus a handful of heads-up tournaments. Unfortunately for me, I've been hit by their best too many times. But it's not like I don't know they've got it in them.

BTW, playing against an SL-4 is easily the toughest game for an SL-7, so it should be no surprise.

Fred

10-24-2002, 02:04 PM
Something like that, but I was talking about SL-2's which is the most win/loss percentage dependent skill level (as far
as APA 8-ball is concerned). Win/loss record at a particular handicap is very indicative. If a person is 90+% as an SL-6,
but the moment he goes up to an SL-7 he's at &lt; 50%, you have an idea where he is: a strong SL-6.

Good point!

Fred Agnir
10-24-2002, 02:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: rackmup:</font><hr> Ken (Fred...is your team perhaps comprised of a few sandbaggers?) <hr></blockquote>
I've got little use for sandbaggers.

I've got less use for those that think everyone is sandbagging. No answer will appease them. If a guy loses, he's a sandbagger. If he wins, he's a sandbagger. God forbid he played well or lousy that day.

Fred

rackmup
10-24-2002, 02:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Fred Agnir:</font><hr>I've got little use for sandbaggers.
<hr></blockquote>

(Ken admires Fred)

Regards,

Ken

stickman
10-24-2002, 04:36 PM
Fred, I agree that not everyone accused of sandbagging is guilty, but certainly some are, and if you objectively look at them, it's not hard to figure out the ones. The other person that I made mention of in my post and accused of playing off is well known by my team captain. My captain is the owner of the pool hall, and he knows the players that play regularly in his hall. I mentioned to him that if the guy wasn't throwing the game intentionally, he was having the worst game of his life. He told me that he was playing off to lower his skill level. As I have said, I don't make a big fuss about it, and it is possibly this type of complacency that perpetuates the practice. In that way, I have to admit guilt. So many just accept that it goes on, and rather than have people say that they're a sore loser, or accuse people wrongly, they just ignore it, and play their own game.