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View Full Version : Should 9-ball be called shot?



10-28-2002, 12:54 PM
About a month ago, I got on my high horse about 9-ball being a slop game and began asking local player's views on adapting a called shot on the 9-ball to win, except for breaks and obvious shots. The change would have affected only in-house tournaments.

Almost unanumously, players bemoaned the slop aspect of 9-ball and recounted stories how they had lost to some banger. But oddly, very few wanted to actually change the tournament rules to correct the problem.

I am curious about how you folks feel. Should slop remain an inherent part of the 9-ball format or should there be a move at the local and/or national levels to take the slop out?

MLV in Idaho (sorry, make that Wisconsin).

10-28-2002, 01:01 PM
Slop should not be a part of ANY Pool game. Pool should be a game of skill, not luck. If you don't make the shot you were intending, sit your butt down!

nAz
10-28-2002, 01:02 PM
I believe every shot in a 9 ball game should be called.
No wild balls! damn i woulda won so many more games playing like that, proberly lost even more too

10-28-2002, 01:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous_1:</font><hr> About a month ago, I got on my high horse about 9-ball being a slop game and began asking local player's views on adapting a called shot on the 9-ball to win, except for breaks and obvious shots. The change would have affected only in-house tournaments.

Almost unanumously, players bemoaned the slop aspect of 9-ball and recounted stories how they had lost to some banger. But oddly, very few wanted to actually change the tournament rules to correct the problem.

I am curious about how you folks feel. Should slop remain an inherent part of the 9-ball format or should there be a move at the local and/or national levels to take the slop out?

MLV in Idaho (sorry, make that Wisconsin). <hr></blockquote>


The only rule I think should be changed is the fact that you can make the 9 anytime, and win. Slop should count I think because of how many times people play safe on you, I think it is nice to have the "well, I hope one goes in" hail mary kickshot or defensive kickshot, but I think it's unfair that if you accidentally make the 9-ball, or even purposely make the 9 without having to run out the rest of the rack (i.e. an early combo on the 9) then it's kinda unfair if someone gets a 9 on the break, and then cheeses the 9 again, and is suddenly up 2 games, and you don't have such luck and have to run out every time... not that it's hard, but just alot more difficult than if your opponent gets an easy combo.

Thats my .02 cents worth.

Ken
10-28-2002, 01:19 PM
You can't have call every shot. It makes safety play too easy like in straight pool where calling the wrong pocket is the same as a safe. Even if the ball is spotted, then you know exactly where it is going to be spotted and the safe is too easy. If the ball stays down the next ball might be impossible so it should be permissible to give the shot back to the shooter. This would get too complicated to make it fair.

Go back to the push out and BIH behind the headstring. Add a little difficulty to the game.
KenCT

Lester
10-28-2002, 01:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Mike:</font><hr> Slop should not be a part of ANY Pool game. Pool should be a game of skill, not luck. If you don't make the shot you were intending, sit your butt down! <hr></blockquote>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Well Mike, when I make the 3 ball go around the table 8rails and kick the 9ball in, I realize that to the "untrained" eye this may look like a slop shot. But I shouldn't have to "play below" my skill just so you can feel comfortable with me winning. lol Not having to call your shots allows the "luck" factor to enter into the equation. The bright side is that alot of so-so players perceive 9-ball as a "might have a chance" game against better players just because of the "luck" factor. JMHO ***Lester***

stickman
10-28-2002, 01:28 PM
Should 9-ball be called shot? NO

Sure, sloppy shots result in a players good fortune at times, but luck is a 50/50 proposition. It will even out over time, and I believe the best player will come out on top. You might loose a match to an opponents lucky rolls, but at some time the rolls will come your way. I've been the recipient of some lucky rolls at times, and been on the other end too. I hate ball bangers, and hate loosing to them even more, but still win far more than I loose. Sure they slop in some lucky shots, but a banger can't really play shape. JMO

10-28-2002, 01:36 PM
I match up all the time and sometimes it comes up with someone saying they don't like 9 ball because of the luck factor. I offer to call everything I can see, not if I am snookered of course. You know what, it makes very little difference. Good players don't luck in very many balls anyway.

stickman
10-28-2002, 01:51 PM
Luck is an inherent part of the game. Not only is luck involved in the pocketing of the occassional ball, but it figures into the occassional lucky leave. If you accidently get a lucky leave (safety, or perhaps the cue ball catches the corner of the side pocket and rebounds out for perfect position) should it not count? Should we also have to call the position of the cueball? This kind of reminds me of the guys who want to play call 8. Calling the pocket isn't good enough, you have to say whether you're going to touch another ball on the way in, or make it clean, if you're going to hit the rail first, etc., etc. Sometimes it can get a little rediculous, depending on who you're playing. LOL

10-28-2002, 02:02 PM
Grady Matthews ran some tournaments for a while where if you lucked your opponent safe, they could make you shoot again. You had to call that you were going to play safe.

I don't think this would eliminate the two-way shot. You could just call those, too. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

10-28-2002, 04:51 PM
There are many more situations in 9 ball where luck comes into play. Ball pocketing is the least. It just does not come up at all with better players. I would like to see the game not end with a 9 on the break. I would prefer to see it spotted and the player continues. Although it does not happen that often, to lose a hill hill game due to a nine on the break is not right.

phil in sofla
10-28-2002, 05:04 PM
I play the old style rules for 9-ball in ring games-- no bih on a table foul, bih in the kitchen on a scratch, and if the opponent doesn't make a legal hit you can shoot from where the cue ball ends up or give it back to him.

That's a good game, and I'd have no trouble using those rules generally for 9-ball. However, even in that older version of the game, slop counts and 9s count, however they go. That's the character of the game.

I'd be willing to have early 9s count only if called, but with 9s on the break and slop when on the 9 counting to win the game. (Winning on the snap is a good thing, IMO, and I'm somewhat upset that generally, making the 8 on the break in 8-ball doesn't win, in most tournament and league play, although it is univerally considered a win playing 8-ball on a bar box).

Tom_In_Cincy
10-28-2002, 05:23 PM
NO, you should only play with players that agree with you.

Nine ball rules have changed in the last 30 years too much. It use to be a great game that favored the better skilled players. Do you remember the 2 foul rule for BIH? Balls spoting up? having to shoot the spot shot? Ball in hand behind the head string?

If it weren't for 9 ball, most of of the major Pro events would still be 14.1 (which I would love to see) but TV and Promoters know that the audience pays to see 9 ball slop. NOT call shot. It just takes too long. This is a fast food society we live in.. I accept that.. I don't like it, but that's the way it is.

This is one of the reasons I like to play 14.1, Bank and One Pocket. There isn't as much luck involved.. But try telling that to the NEW pool Generation..

The only players that I see wanting a 9 ball call shot rule are ones that cannot accept someone else's luck.

Barbara
10-28-2002, 05:33 PM
Tom,

Taking the "spot the balls" rule out was one of the best things that happened to 9-ball. It penalized the incoming player, not the one that pocketed a ball on a foul!

IMHO, I think that 9-ball should be a called shot game, if only on the unobvious shots like banks and where you have a choice of pockets for the OB.

Barbara~~~gettin' ready for some football!!!

Tom_In_Cincy
10-28-2002, 05:42 PM
As a referee, I have to agree, it would make the game easier to call.

As a player, if you have to play a "call shot" game, it might as well be 8 ball, 14.1, one pocket or Banks.

You are correct about penalizing the incomming player on the spot the ball rule. And, it happened more than you might know.. Especially on the Break. You make the one ball and scratch.. and when you spot it up, its hidden behind another ball(s). You have ball in hand behind the head string and are screwed. You didn't even have the option to PUSH.

It was that way until about 15-20 years ago, when they changed the "all balls spotted rule" to "no balls spotted" on a foul, and Ball in Hand anywhere after a foul.

Ken
10-28-2002, 05:58 PM
Call shot would make the game far more easy than it is now and much too confusing for anyone who is not familiar with the rules. If I have a problem getting to the next ball I just call the one I can make in the wrong pocket and I have a killer safe especially if that ball is not spotted. Try explaining that to someone. "Well yes, he did make the right ball, but he made it in the wrong pocket. No there's no penalty for that and yes the guy shooting now is in a lot of trouble. That's just how nine ball works."

Or is it going to be BIH for making the ball in an uncalled pocket? Do we need that rule also? "Well sometimes when you make the ball you get to shoot again and other times your opponent gets to put the cueball anywhere he wants and he gets to shoot. Pay attention, dear!"
KenCT

Barbara
10-28-2002, 07:05 PM
Ken,

You're right. There's a lot more to be considered than just calling pockets. How intentional/unintentional safeties should be addressed is another whole issue.

I just never liked the spotting of balls when fouling on the break. That rule always penalized the incoming shooter.

Barbara~~~my mind's still on football tonight...

Ken
10-28-2002, 08:23 PM
Barbara,
I think the BIH would solve the problem of intentional safes resulting from miscalling the pocket. It would change the game where now slop is rewarded. Instead slop would be heavily penalized by the BIH.

What I don't understand is why anyone would want to make this change. It seems that the more highly skilled players are upset that they are so good they never put the ball into the wrong pocket but some of their lessser skilled opponents do and occasionally win a game or (heaven forbid) a match. I simply wonder how they expect to get these lesser skilled players to put up any money and play them when they know in advance that one of their only chances to win is eliminated.

It seems that it is not enough that all the elite players play a lot better and usually win. They want winning against lessor skilled players to be even easier.


Was it the chicken or the goose that laid the golden eggs?

If you're playing someone your speed and that person wins because of slop what's the difference? Your chances were only 50/50 anyway. If you lose to a lessor player you might get a bigger bet the next time and you WILL win most of the time.
KenCT

10-28-2002, 09:42 PM
You make a good point, but I think the problem with spotting the 9 is that the breaker is getting penalized because he's losing the value of a ball in on the break.

phil in sofla
10-29-2002, 10:36 AM
What is the penalty of having to shoot a spot shot? I'm not a great player, but I have good confidence in shooting a spot shot. Anyone who knows that the spot shot will come up frequently can practice it, and probably get upwards of 80% success in pocketing that shot. Although I haven't seen it, I imagine there are some standard safes you can play from that position as well.

Now, if the issue is getting a lot of balls tied up down the long string, then maybe I understand your statement a little better. But simply having to shoot a spot shot isn't much of a penalty.

10-29-2002, 11:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr>
As a player, if you have to play a "call shot" game, it might as well be 8 ball, 14.1, one pocket or Banks.
<hr></blockquote>

No. "Rotation" style games like 9-ball or 10-ball call for different shots and thinking than the games that you mentioned. There is no "might as well". They are different games.

Barbara
10-29-2002, 04:55 PM
Phil,

It's when you get more than one ball lined up on the long string is when it becomes a 'penalty" for the incoming player.

Barbara

Tom_In_Cincy
10-29-2002, 07:20 PM
Mike,
Please list the shots that you know are unique to "Rotation" games like 9 ball, 10 ball. I am interested what you think these shots are.

I agree that there is quite a bit of difference in the "thinking" that goes along with the different games. And, that it is only somewhat difficult for a 9 ball player to switch to the other games... tactics and strategy.

10-30-2002, 05:06 PM
I didn't say there were shots unique to the games. But certain shots and types of shots come up MORE OFTEN in some games than other games.

Do you disagree?

Tom_In_Cincy
10-30-2002, 06:22 PM
Mike,

Well there are certainly more bank shots in One Pocket and Banks than there are in 14.1 or 9 or 10 ball.. that's for sure. I won't debate that at all.

Can you think of any shots that come up more often in 9 or 10 ball than in the other games?

10-30-2002, 06:43 PM
Of course I can. There are lots of shots that some up much more often in 9-ball and 10-ball than in 14.1 or 8-ball. All of these shots are very common in 9/10 ball, but more rare in in 8-ball, since there are more balls to work with for legal shots. And they are even more rare in 14.1.

- Outside-english three rail shots to go from one end of the table to the other.

- Force-follow shots on an almost-straight-in ball to go up and down the table for shape. Especially when the cue ball and object ball are some distance apart.

- Low-running english shots to draw a ball back to the rail and spin it down to the other end of the table.

- High-inside english shots to force the cueball into the rail and then out at the opposite angle that it will naturally go.

- Any jump shot.

- Most safties in 9-ball are totally different shots than in 14.1.

There are lots of other examples. Now tell me...other than the last two examples...do you see a recurring pattern here? There is something different about these shots than what you will see for most shots in 14.1. I'll give you a hint: Lots of great players use a slightly shorter stroke when playing 14.1 than they do when playing 9-ball. Why do you think that may be the case?

10-30-2002, 06:50 PM
It wasn't intentional. I just forgot to login. I've been coming here less and less, and am soon gonna leave this place completely. I haven't been signing-in much lately.

Tom_In_Cincy
10-30-2002, 10:29 PM
I usally don't reply to "anonymous" posters, but in your case I will make an exception.

You are absolutely correct in your observation of the shots that are 9 and 10 ball specific. I have been playing all the aforementioned games for many years and have experienced the challenges of going from a One Pocket game to a 9 ball game, or a 14.1 game going to a Bank game. I know there are differences and I was really wanting to hear some responses. Yours are just great.

I haven't seen a detailed list like yours about these shots since I've been posting. I am going to save it for future reference.

If this is MIKE.. I have found a new level of respect for your knowledge of the game.

Thanks

10-31-2002, 12:34 AM
I am curious, will you explain these two shots with a little more detail? I do not get the english used related to the object ball, rail and cue ball direction. thanks

Outside-english three rail shots to go from one end of the table to the other.

High-inside english shots to force the cueball into the rail and then out at the opposite angle that it will naturally go.

10-31-2002, 11:34 AM
Yes, that was me. I just forgot to login before posting, that's all.

I was reading Billiards Digest last night, and Mike Sigel made the same observation. He said that he considers 9-ball to be the most difficult game because the player so often has to go from one end of the table to the other to get shape. "The most difficult game" is a personal opinion. But observing how shots in 9-ball more often require a greater distance of cueball movement than in games like 14.1, banks, or 8-ball is something that can be observed and measured with no opinions or feelings to interfere with the analysis.

Quick point...one of my two coaches won his world championship by beating Mike Sigel in the final. Had to beat him in both 8-ball and 9-ball. Nah...I don't have anywhere to turn to for good advice and instruction in this game... /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

10-31-2002, 11:46 AM
START(
%Hn8F9%ID1U3%Pe3G1%Ug8Z6%Vs1L5%WK4E1%Xf5[3%YE2G8%ZJ2D3%eC2`5
%_r9J7%`n3G8%af2G6
)END

You can change this shot by changing the point you hit on the cueball. Hitting it lower will bring the cue ball further up the rail, like this:
START(
%Hn8F9%II2S1%Pe3G1%Ul5Z4%Vs1L5%WU3D6%Xj8Z7%YN9I9%Z S5C8%eC3a6
%_r9J7%`n3G8%af2G6
)END

(BTW...I don't promise the ball placement and lines are exactly correct. I can't see this stuff on a tiny picture the same way I do on a table. There's no "system" I use. It is instinct and feel that comes from experience. And it can change dramatically as you move from place to place and use different balls, rails, and cloth.)

The other shot you asked about can be like this:
START(
%G]7G3%HN8E9%IF1R9%P^9L2%U\5G8%V]9C8%][5B5%^]3F5%eA6`3%_^6D6
%`^0G5%a^9K1
)END

Lester
10-31-2002, 11:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Mike,

Well there are certainly more bank shots in One Pocket and Banks than there are in 14.1 or 9 or 10 ball.. that's for sure. I won't debate that at all.

Can you think of any shots that come up more often in 9 or 10 ball than in the other games? <hr></blockquote>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Yea Tom, so much so that many people differentiate between the different skills by saying 9-ball uses the "long game" and 8-ball, and 14.1 uses the "short game". I have ran into many 9-ball players (mostly younger) that have no idea of the "short game". Can't see the patterns, and are lacking in ability to work through a major congestion of balls, using a light touch. These same players are even lost in a 9-ball ring game because they can't safe. They wouldn't even think to try and break out the next shot. But if you match up with them in a texas express 9-ball match, you soon find yourself in serious trouble. ---- They KNOW the long game. JMHO ***Lester***

10-31-2002, 12:36 PM
that is a list worth saving? you must be some kind of C player. and to think you dainted to lower yourself to answer an anon for such a garden variety schema.

that was the dummies guide to basic nine-ball workhorse patterns, not the holy grail.

10-31-2002, 12:38 PM
OK thanks Mike, that is what I thought. I was reading something different into the other anon post. I thought he had his english mixed up. It was just me.