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10-29-2002, 06:36 PM
Some of you may already do this as a part of your preshot routine. It's a very subtle little trick that dosn't take you out of your way at all when you have a look at the contact point and line to the pocket prior to addressing the cue ball.

Just line up the cue stick along that line NOTE: It's bad manours and some places illegal to but your tip right up to the object ball's contact point as some players believe your marking a spot to aim at. This is needless for this move though. You line up the cue with the shot line but take note of where the but of the cue meets the rail. Now when you step behind the cue ball check that spot again. It's now easy to triangulate between that spot, the cue ball, and the contact point for solid alignment as you get down on the shot.

Of course many shots you probably don't even need to, but for those "funny angles" it's a real keeper. St

Chris Cass
10-30-2002, 12:47 AM
Hi Stretch,

Hope everything is going great. I've done that before. I don't do that anymore due to someone thinking I've marked the cloth. Funny, now I look at the spot chalk up and put the chalk down where the butt would encounter the rail and yes, it's all subconsciously. If there is such a word./ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Regards,

C.C.~~Marlboro has supplied half my camping gear. The only thing is, when I do get it all I'll be dieing from cigarette's. LOL

phil in sofla
10-30-2002, 02:42 AM
How bad is that, really? I've seen many of the great players do it on occasion, some more than others. Evidently, Johnny A has taken to doing it on most of his shots as part of his new aiming system. But a lot of people who generally don't do it, still do it routinely when they have to be very precise, shooting into a half pocket, a tricky combination, etc. Are all those people, including top players in top tournaments, acting badly, showing poor sportsmanship, bad manners?

Well, it isn't against any standard rules, per se. Marking the table is illegal, true. So is using anything else as a guide or measuring device, such as chalk on the rail (cough).

But we all put the chalk on the rail, and this is rarely if ever challenged. (Evidently, people should be more alert to this foul, LOL! My friend Mark uses the chalk to show the end of a shape zone, and I'm not sure if that is legal or not?) But mainly, putting the chalk on the rail isn't marking anything.

And the same thing is true about putting the tip on the cloth, in reality. It's hard to get any mark unless you work at it because there's no chalk on the sidewall of the tip. I've never seen a mark from that from others doing it, or when I do it.

I have gotten grief from only 3 people in league over this issue over maybe 6 years. But what they lacked in number, they made up in volume, LOL! They were mad and totally adamant that I shouldn't do it. One of the guys on the rules committee feels the same way, and told me he's trying to get it entirely banned. So I guess that some people really do find it quite bad. But it might be a minority opinion, since it seems ok at the top levels of play.

dave
10-30-2002, 09:32 AM
Thanks Stretch. A constructive and useful post. How bout' that?! Wish there were more of them.

Ross
10-30-2002, 10:11 AM
I can't visualize the process you are describing. Could you draw it out on the WEI table?

10-30-2002, 10:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: dave:</font><hr> How bout' that?! Wish there were more of them. <hr></blockquote>Droll, Newbie.
Slim

Chris Cass
10-30-2002, 01:04 PM
Hi Ross,

This is for you and =k=,

START(
%IL1L1%Pe0U4%Q]7]3%UM7M3%Vd2U1%YC5C6%Z^2^0%eB4`8

)END

The chalk is placed at "A" on the rail. It really isn't all that. It just gives you a slight look at the angle of shot. It's helpfull but only if you shoot by angles rather than totally aim the ball, at the precise spot on the ob.

I use an angle system till I'm near the center of the table. This one below might be a better example for using the angle system I teach to show the wedge of a shot.

START(
%A^1G9%CL1@8%IL7O4%Pj9L4%Q]4H3%R]2@7%SA7B7%Tu0I5%U]9C2%V^0G8
%WD3D2%X]4G7%[M4A6%\i9L1%]D5C6%^]7C5%eC2a9
)END

This shot shows the lines you see in your mind. If the chalk was placed at the 3 ball location? That would be cheating. If the chalk was placed at the "D" location it's considered, not cheating. After testing the Wei shot diagram I found it wouldn't let me place the 3 ball on the rail so, use the tip of the blue arrow for the 3 ball location.

A= ob location and start of wedge. Note:(couldn't put it on the ball so consider the ob as "A".)
B= the rail for reenforcement or standard to judge the angles.
A &amp; C= the angle of the cut and where the ob is to be hit.
A &amp; D= where on might line up the cuestick to aim the shot, leaving the chalk at "D" for reference.

Regards,

C.C.

dave
10-30-2002, 01:24 PM
I'm pleased that you are amused. Actually, I used to be a regular poster here (some 3 and 4 years ago) long before the board format change and I'm quite familiar with Stretch, his posts and the changes in personalities that have occured here over the past two years (despite the official "newbie" tag). I momentarily came out of lurk; so my statement isn't quite so presumptuous as it might initially appear. Back to the safety of lurk mode! :-)

Wally_in_Cincy
10-30-2002, 02:24 PM
You misunderstood dave's intent. He was merely rejoicing at the appearance of a good pool-related thread, rather than more arguments. I agree with him. And he's definitely not a newbie. IIRC he's "gatekeeper dave" and a triple digit /ccboard/images/icons/laugh.gif

dave
10-30-2002, 02:31 PM
Why thank you, my friend! I really appreciate that. :-)

Chris Cass
10-30-2002, 02:35 PM
Hi Wally,

I too remember Dave. I don't even bother looking at the status of ones post anyway. I look for content. A lot of regulars that's been here for awhile have status changes. It's what's said that really counts. I got the message Dave was conveying and it's unarguable for sure. It is nice to see the board coming back, even if it's a little bit at a time.

Regards,

C.C.~~likes both Dave and Slim too....You too Wally./ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
10-30-2002, 02:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: dave:</font><hr> Why thank you, my friend! I really appreciate that. :-) <hr></blockquote>

no prob.

If the CCB ever elects officers I still wanna be "Official Historian of BDCCB" /ccboard/images/icons/laugh.gif

Rod
10-30-2002, 03:01 PM
Wally, I remember Dave and Stretch both good people. About that historian position, when there is an election I'll vote for ya. They dam sure won't elect me I can't remember what happened yesterday. That's probably why my game is in decent shape, I don't remember if I lost, so I must have won. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Ross
10-31-2002, 10:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Chris Cass:</font><hr> Hi Ross,

This is for you and =k=,

START(
%IL1L1%Pe0U4%Q]7]3%UM7M3%Vd2U1%YC5C6%Z^2^0%eB4`8

)END

The chalk is placed at "A" on the rail. It really isn't all that. It just gives you a slight look at the angle of shot. It's helpfull but only if you shoot by angles rather than totally aim the ball, at the precise spot on the ob.

I use an angle system till I'm near the center of the table. This one below might be a better example for using the angle system I teach to show the wedge of a shot.

START(
%A^1G9%CL1@8%IL7O4%Pj9L4%Q]4H3%R]2@7%SA7B7%Tu0I5%U]9C2%V^0G8
%WD3D2%X]4G7%[M4A6%\i9L1%]D5C6%^]7C5%eC2a9
)END

This shot shows the lines you see in your mind. If the chalk was placed at the 3 ball location? That would be cheating. If the chalk was placed at the "D" location it's considered, not cheating. After testing the Wei shot diagram I found it wouldn't let me place the 3 ball on the rail so, use the tip of the blue arrow for the 3 ball location.

A= ob location and start of wedge. Note:(couldn't put it on the ball so consider the ob as "A".)
B= the rail for reenforcement or standard to judge the angles.
A &amp; C= the angle of the cut and where the ob is to be hit.
A &amp; D= where on might line up the cuestick to aim the shot, leaving the chalk at "D" for reference.

Regards,

C.C. <hr></blockquote>
Hey Chris,

I find your concepts about aiming interesting, so thanks for the additional explanations. But I'm still unclear on parts of it, so I am going to ask you more questions than you probably want to hear!

When you say "shoot by angles" do you mean something like:
"Hmmm..., this shot is about a 30 degree cut so I will aim for a half ball hit."
Or is it non-numeric, where you mentally register the amount of the angle in an impressionistic way, and then decide the corresponding fraction of the ob that must be hit?

What do you mean when you say you use the angle system until you are near the center of the table? Do you mean when the cueball is near the centerline (lengthwise)and, for example, you are cutting a ball into the corner, you find the contact point aiming more helpful than thinking in terms of angles? And if so, do you have a theory as to why this is?

Also you talk about showing the wedge of the shot. In the second Wei example, which part is the wedge? Is it the angle between the blue and the brown/reddish line? Do you actually use the angle defined by cueball-ob-chalk point(D) in your picturing of the shot?

Ok, enough questions for one post.
Aren't you sorry you tried to explain this to me! lol

10-31-2002, 04:36 PM

Eric.
10-31-2002, 04:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: whitewolf:</font><hr> If I see someone doing this (looking at the spot to hit on the object ball), I start licking my chops.

&gt;Beginners do this but don't know how to properly use it.

I can't believe Johnny Archer does this as some have reported below. Still can't. Oh well, different strokes for differenct folks. <hr></blockquote>

Contact point if used properly is a very effective method of mechanically lining up the cut shot. Obviously, you don't aim your cue at the exact point on the OB. The point is only your reference.

Eric &gt;uses contact point

phil in sofla
10-31-2002, 11:12 PM
Re: Johnny A. pointing at balls

I saw him do this a little in the Mosconi Cup matches Kato taped, in which the commentator mentioned he had adopted a new aiming system, which he considered to have greatly improved his accuracy from whatever he had been doing before. When I mentioned that on the board, some others mentioned that he was doing it almost all the time now, including on relatively trivial shots, slight cuts, straight ins, etc.

Of course, just knowing the theoretical contact point on the OB is useless unless you know where to aim the cue ball to achieve a hit at that contact point, so I partially agree with you. Beginners know about how to determine the contact point all right, but not necessarily how to aim to hit it. It took me several years of play to begin to understand how the aim line related to the contact point, and even then, I got it wrong for a time, got bad results from a flawed theory on how that worked, and went back to a combination ghost ball/feel shooting method.

Now, understanding the geometry of how the balls must line up at contact and being able to precisely aim to hit the contact point, I'm convinced this is an excellent aim method. I'm working on seeing the line without pointing at the contact point, and using the pointing less, but when in any doubt, I go back to it.

And as I noted below, since even many great players do exactly this when the shot needs extra precision, when they need to be most accurate, it seems even pro level players are tacitly admitting the method is helpful when accuracy is at a premium.

For me, I'm trying to aim into a half pocket most of the time to maximize my margin of error for pocketing, and the slight difference between the aimline to the left side, the middle, or the right side of the pocket, I really cannot differentiate while behind the cue ball, so I have to get that line looking directly from the object ball to the side of the pocket I want to use.

Chris Cass
11-01-2002, 02:13 AM
Hi Ross,

Go ahead pick my brain, I don't use it much half the time anyway. LOL

Ok here goes, I don't calculate half ball hits or a degree and is done mentally after shooting for so long. My eyes see these lines through rote perhaps more than anything.

What I mean by angle system is a way of judging the angle using the rail and the ob as reference points. The rail being straight is the constant. The ob actually forms the angle in it's various positions.

No matter where the cb is the contact point on the ob remains the same, a given. The contact point of the ob is noted but to make it you'd hit outside the contact point as you know this already. The contact point of the ob is a reference only. All the angles of the ob ball up to straight in or as you approach center table are aimed for the outside of the pocket. Anything after that would be center pocket. I know I'm confusing you already. sorry.

In the second diagram, the brown/redish line up to the black line(or rail) is the wedge. The blue line is where the actual shot is aimed. Even though the brown/redish line is the contact point, it isn't the actual aim point. It's the reference line. Make sence?

When, I teach this method to anyone, it's hard till I reach them. Heide suffered with this for awhile. All the books say the contact point on the ob to straight in the pocket is where the ghost ball should be to make the shot. Now, that's just a reference spot only because if you hit that spot with the cb, you'll miss everytime right? Your cue tip is aimed at the out side of that contact point of the ob to pocket. The facings are what we aim for outside and inside. The back of the pocket is used only for a shot that's straight in. You wouldn't aim your wedge for the back or center pocket, you'd aim for the facings.

That being said, the angle from the ob to the facing is considered, when looking from the ob to pocket to find the contact point on the ob. The angle is what I look for, only. On more precise cuts where I have only a half a pocket to make the ball is where I walk over and line my cue stick to find the exact reference line or contact point as everyone say to make the ball. This reinforces my need for accuracy.

These angles change but are used in every case. The back cut, the side cuts, the end to end left and right and banks too. I don't need to see the contact point. I reley on angles and speed of the hit.

I hope this all makes sence. If not I'll be at Derby City and will tell ya everything I know. hahaha Not that you'll need it but I do have an interesting take on this game we all love. LOL One day I'll be BCA qualified and teach this stuff. Till then, I won't waste anymore of your time. LOL

Regards,

C.C.~~feel good won $9. today. LOL It was .50 a rack. hahaha I can't believe it. I haven't played for .50 for 25 yrs. hahahaha

Ross
11-01-2002, 10:02 AM
Thanks, Chris. I understand what you were saying now.
Sometimes people ask what was something you learned that most helped your game. A stunned cb following the tangent line is a common answer. Another one, IMO, is when you learn to aim for the facings. I repeatedly undercut many a cut shot down the long rail before that simple idea registered with me.
I hope I can make it to the Derby Classic. If not, I hope to meet you sometime, somewhere. I might even risk 50 cents a game (on credit), if you make it a fair game. Say the 6-out?

Chris Cass
11-01-2002, 10:12 AM
Hi Ross,

.50 a game sure, you can get the 6 out. Heck, what do I care, Kato's backing me. hahahaha Hey, lets just make it easier and we'll start with Kato sending the money before we play. hahahahhaa

Regards,

C.C.

Rod
11-01-2002, 01:45 PM
Hi Chris,
Great minds or what's left of them think alike. LOL I follow that same line of reasoning. Glad you typed all of that cause I'm lazy. I use the rails as a reference to the pocket facing also. After being asked several times how can I make balls, because of eyesight my answer is simple. I know where the pockets are. Actually I don't see the balls to bad but I need reading glasses for reading not pool. Like you I play by angle and that's not saying, oh thats a 1/2 ball hit or 30 degrees or whatever. I guess one difference on those 1/2 pocket shots I get down a see how much margin there is for error. I never use the cue as a guide, once I know I'll adjust my aim. In Vegas a few years back on a hill game I had one of those. I played position for what was barely 1/2 pocket, actually I had no choice. The ball in the way was 2 ft from the pocket and the o/b was about 3 ft from that ball. It wasn't my greatest shot by any means but I hit it with a pure stroke and it went past with just a little bobble in the pocket. One more ball then the 8 ball. I'd have to say those shots demand a pure stroke and using any english could be fatal.

$.50 a game, what the heck good for practice. It gives you the opportunity to free wheel and take the game on the light side, something that might be good for you right about now. Say is Berwick, which is near Des Moines if it still exists anywhere near you? Just curious my GGGrandfather and his clan lived and died in that area. They owned a lot of farm land in that area. Wish some of that had been passed down to me, I like corn!

Chris Cass
11-02-2002, 12:42 AM
Hey Rod, Your a PIP. hahaha No wonder we get along so well. Hey by the way, have you ever tried a Sumo tip? I've been using them for awhile now and they hit pretty good for me. I sure would like to send you one to try if you haven't yet. Seeing how we even like the same tip response too.

Send me your address or reply in a PM if, your interested.

Regards,

C.C.~~likes Rod tons