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View Full Version : APA's Ambiguous 8-Ball Rule - Comments?


SpiderMan
10-30-2002, 03:35 PM
In an 8-ball game in APA competition, players A and B each have one ball left on the table, plus the eight. The 8-ball and cueball are a few inches out from the center of the foot rail.

Player A shoots at a hard thin cut on his last ball, which is at the other end of the table, on the head rail about a foot from the corner pocket. He misses his object ball completely, the cue ball speeds back toward his end of the table, and he catches it just before it strikes the 8-ball full in the face.

Player B's captain asks for a concession of the game, player A's captain insists that it is merely ball-in-hand. Someone produces a rule book which states (approximately) that it is a concession if the path of the balls is interfered with "in a game-losing situation".

Player B's captain says that it was not a game-losing situation because the 8-ball was not in front of a pocket, therefore would not have been pocketed.

Player B (a SL-2) took ball-in-hand, made her last ball but left herself poorly on the 8. She jawed the 8 and then player A (a SL-3) made his ball and proceded to win.

Is it just me, or is "game-losing situation" a pretty ambiguous judgement call? Maybe the 8 would have banked into another pocket if player A had not stopped the cueball. What if the 8 were not directly in front of the pocket, but maybe a foot away and a 45-degree cut? Where do you draw the line?

Having a rule that is open to so much interpretation and argument is, in my opinion, a bad and unnecessary idea.

SpiderMan
stickman
10-30-2002, 04:06 PM
Spider, grabbing the cueball to keep it from scratching when shooting the eightball, would deffinately apply to this rule. Your situation is in a gray area. I'm not sure how to call this one. It's easier to avoid these types of situations by telling the players to keep there hands off the balls, but since that didn't happen, I'm not sure. If the player were penalized the game though, they might learn.
Tom_In_Cincy
10-30-2002, 05:05 PM
Spidy,
I hope you can get reply from the APA rules committee. And if you do, please post the response.

Big Grey Area. If it was deliberate, yes it would fall under GAME loss penalty if I were KING.
If it was accidental, BIH... and a warning..
Rod
10-30-2002, 05:11 PM
I guess it depends who is debating this rule. I'd call it a loss. If the c/b hits the 8 and sends it to the other end or even in the center of the table it makes her out much easier. I'll bet player knew that or otherwise why would he grab the ball. A 2 can have a hard time moving the c/b from one end to the other with good position.

Something similar come up here a while back. Player A misses his ball, the c/b is coming back to break out 2 frozen of his opponents which would give him an easy out. Player A grabs the c/b to keep that from happening. I don't remember if it was APA or BCA but what comes to mind is un-sportsmanship like conduct in either case. Doesn't APA have any rules to do with conduct?
SpiderMan
10-30-2002, 08:55 PM
Tom,

Did you mean I should contact a rules committee, or did you mean that you hoped they read this bulletin board? BTW, I'm not our team captain.

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Spidy,
I hope you can get reply from the APA rules committee. And if you do, please post the response.

Big Grey Area. If it was deliberate, yes it would fall under GAME loss penalty if I were KING.
If it was accidental, BIH... and a warning.. <hr></blockquote>
Tom_In_Cincy
10-30-2002, 09:06 PM
Spiderman,

I would like to know (just curious) what the APA rules committee (if there is one) thinks about this "grey" area.

Maybe there might be someone lurking that will know how to contact them.. or maybe one of the committee members lurks here and might venture a ruling..

Either way, I am curious what the APA thinks would rule.
MikeM
10-30-2002, 11:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> If it was deliberate, yes it would fall under GAME loss penalty if I were KING.
<hr></blockquote>

I thought we had already elected you King!

MM
Ralph S.
10-31-2002, 05:42 AM
The way I interpret the rule as posted, it would be a loss.
The player that grabbed the cb most likely knew better too. I am with TominCincy, as far as being curious to what the APA would say their interpretation to be.
Ralph S.
Eric.
10-31-2002, 08:31 AM
Spidey,

I don't play APA but I know a couple of league op's. Based on their ambiguous answers, I came up with this:

Unless it clearly changes the outcome of the game(wide open for debate), it is only BIH to the opponent.

It sucks that your SL2 couldn't run out. I think you could of argued that if the 8 popped out, it would have made the run out easier, it still wasn't a "clear loss of game" for the other guy.

Eric &gt;clear as mud?
Vicki
10-31-2002, 04:22 PM
It would be a better rule if it were worded something like, "it is a concession of game if the path of the cue ball is interfered with and that interference directly affects the placement of any of the balls remaining on the table."

It's a little more strict because if it happens at the start of the game between two 2's then it is not exactly a game-losing situation but it would eliminate people picking up the cue ball before it comes to rest after a bad hit.

Vicki