PDA

View Full Version : 10 Bad Habits That Keep You From Running The Rack



DSAPOLIS
11-03-2002, 10:13 PM
Excerpt from Lessons in 9 Ball



10 Bad Habits That Keep You From Running The Rack

Many players believe that they get bad rolls, or that
certain situations develop on the playing surface of the
table that keep them from running out. I believe that the
reasons we fail to run the rack is mainly due to bad habits
that we have developed over time. I believe that there are
10 bad habits that we have all had at one time or another,
and that we utilize these habits subconsciously, either out
of desperation or by necessity. Bad habits are the result
of poor decisions. They are also the result of laziness.
We find the easier, softer way, and avoid progress at all
costs. These habits root themselves into the deepest
and most difficult to reach parts of your game, making it
seem nearly impossible to ever alleviate the symptoms and
deal with the problems head on. No situation is
impossible. No situation is helpless. When faced with
problems such as this, we shouldn't stay in helplessness,
Instead of saying, "I can't because," train your mind to say
"Well, how CAN I?" Along with identifying these bad
habits, I will pass along to you 10 good habits that can and
will enable you to run out the rack! Remember, we don't
have bad habits, they have us! BUT.... we can replace the
negative habits with positive ones, and become trapped into
doing the right thing, all of the time!

Bad Habit #1: A display of power on the break.

This is the downfall of many a player. Throughout this
book you will here me say time and time again, "Never
sacrifice ACCURACY for POWER." All of us want to make a few
balls on the break, but the reality is that as long as you
make "a" ball, you get to keep shooting. There's no rule
out there that says you need to make two or three balls on
the break, just one will suffice. The other reality is,
that to accomplish this, you don't have to blast the rack to
smithereens. Why?
Bad things happen when you break the balls too hard.
More times than not, the cue ball either flies off of the
table, or the cue ball flies into a pocket. This does
nothing to help you, as your opponent will more than likely
have a wide open table and ball in hand. Not a good thing
from where you're sitting.
Most guys have this "macho thing" about blasting the
balls real hard. Of course it's real intimidating to watch
three and four balls rocket into the pockets off of the
break, but if you have no control over the cue ball and the
one ball, your chances of running the rack are slim. Why?
Not only do you need to break and make a ball, you also have
to get a shot on the lowest numbered ball. Remember? We're
trying to play this game at a higher level now, which means
that we need to abandon the idea of pot luck position. In
"Breaking To Win" I cover all of the bases of why I use the
break that I use. I play the one in the side (or bank the
one to the corner which I'm breaking from) and I stop the
cue ball in the center of the table. I stroke the cue ball
at medium speed for maximum results.
Many of us get caught up with the excitement of having
just won a game, and now we're breaking. We want to smash
the hell out of the balls before the other guy lifts up the
rack. We're already down in our breaking stance while the
guys racking the balls. STOP DOING THIS!!!
This will only heighten your excitement and cause you
to rush the break shot. Wait for the balls to get racked,
examine the rack, and then set up your break shot. A good
way to remain calm before breaking is to hold the cue ball
in your bridge hand until the rack is lifted. Staying down
in your stance only helps to tense up your muscles and your
brain. Remember, before we can control what is happening on
the table, we need to first control what is going on in our
head. If we have no control over what's occuring inside the
coconut, bad things can and will occur outside the coconut.
Now to dispel a rumor: Power is not all that important
on the break. Accuracy is! Over a period of time, you will
see that being more accurate (as opposed to being more
powerful) a ball is more likely to drop on the break. Why
is this? I'm not a physics major or anything, nor do I
really preach the physics of pool (I leave that to others)
but I believe that the less that's flying around the
table, the better chances I have of a ball dropping into the
pockets. The Big Bang Theory of nine ball has always
puzzled me. I would rather know exactly where my cue ball
is going, and where the one ball is going. That way I know
I will have a shot when something drops. How many times
have you made a ball on the break only to get stuck rolling
out or to be left with no shot at all? I bet that has happened
plenty of times. This bad habit can be eliminated from your
game. I have argued this next point over endlessly with
countless people, but I still stand firm to my belief that
the when the balls are blasted on the break, they tend to
spread out to the rails at first, giving the illusion of a
"nice break". After a about a second and a half, the balls
tend to zing around the table at various speeds, eventually
"mushrooming" back to or near the center of table. Why is
this? What happens when a ball travels to a rail at a high
velocity? It contacts the cushion and then goes to another
cushion. These balls repeat the process until the ball
eventually stops. Usually, it stops back where it
originally started, or it clusters with two or three other
balls. To put this in perspective, let's say that you are
running out a rack, and you are now shooting the four ball.
As you attempt to make the four and get position on the next
ball, how many of the balls need to be moving? Preferably
just the cue ball (for position) and the four going into the
desired pocket. What would be your chances if you spread
the remainder of the balls around the table in that
situation? The shot on the four is no more and no less
important than the break shot. If you have power, fine.
Control it. If you cannot control your power, take it down
a notch or two. You'd be surprised.

Bad Habit #2: Failure to properly read the rack.

Many skills are necessary in nine ball, but none is
more important than possesing the skill to properly and
effectively read the rack. When it is our turn at the
table, we need to know exactly what needs to be
accomplished. Just aimlessly shooting from ball to ball
won't work here. You might get lucky every now and then,
but you won't be successful consistently.
Planning is essential in any endeavor, but here it pays
dividends on your confidence and hopefully your cashflow.
What is "reading the rack"? It is the art and skill of
seeing a pattern (shot for shot) that will eventually lead
you to a game winning shot on the nine ball. Every shot
that you make is designed not only to get position on the
next ball, but it must aid you in your efforts to run the
rack. This can be practiced by watching others play, or it
can be practiced while you are playing.
What causes us to improperly read the rack? Lots of
things. Jitters, nervousness, anxiousness, or in some cases
our own stupidity (me included). Some of us just don't pay
attention to what we are doing. We take an easy layout for
granted and eventually stand over the table scratching our
heads while mumbling, "oh, sh*t!" Our mind must work like a
rack-running computer, analyzing each shot of the layout,
while recognizing the patterns and routes required to get
you out of the rack. Carelessness gets us nowhere but
sitting back in the chair. We need to concentrate on every
shot, calculating each and every move with precision. Later
I will give you some ideas to consider when reading the
rack.

Bad Habit #3: The inability to effectively deal with clusters and problem balls.

This is the Achilles heel of many players. Many of the
younger players of today are at a disadvantage compared to
players of twenty of thirty years ago. I have always
maintained that the game of straight pool (14.1) is and
always will be the game's best teacher. Many of today's
players have never played straight pool or one pocket, and
that is a shame. The game of straight pool forces you to
learn how to break up clusters and eliminate problem spots
within the rack. So how does this relate to nine ball?
Simple. Many times clusters develop and make our path to
the nine ball seem impossible. A seasoned player knows that
these clusters serve a dual purpose:
a) They can stop our opponent dead in his tracks as he
attempts to run the rack.
b) We can use these clusters to our advantage by using
them as target areas if and when we have to play safe.
But, what if we are the shooting player and we are
forced to either duck, or break up the cluster?
As with anything else, this can be learned through
practice. Remember how I spoke earlier about some of us
just aimlessly toss nine balls out on the table and start
shooting away as opposed to practicing a specific part of
our game that needs work? This is what I was talking
about. All of us could use work in this area. Set up a few
clusters and see how you can effectively break them up after
shooting in the lowest numbered ball. Leaving it up to
chance, or hoping that our opponent will do the dirty work
for us is not very smart. We want to be in control of the
table, and we want to keep shooting. That is how we win
games.
Problem balls can be classified in two categories.
a) They can be the "key shot" in the rack.
b) They can be that ball that has the least pocket
availability options.
Either way, these balls must be dealt with
accordingly. Perhaps you can start by setting up for the
key shot from the get go. This bad habit goes hand in hand
with effective rack reading, and problems can be avoided by
utilizing proper planning. If we are weak in this area of
our game, it will be exploited by a more experienced
player.

Bad Habit #4: Flashy position routes.

This is probably the most common among novice and
intermediate players. Some players enjoy having the cue
ball travel from rail to rail with more english than is
required. Please understand that there is a such thing as
doing too much with the cue ball. The rule is "do whatever
is the simplest". If you can get position by using one
rail, use one rail, not two or three. We're at the table to
win games, not to impress the railbirds. If you want to
impress the railbirds, learn some trick shots. Nine ball is
a game that is played best when it is played in it's
simplest form.

Bad Habit #5: Indecisiveness.

This is a killer. This is a mental flaw that is
brought upon by not having the balls roll your way. We
become timid and duck instead of going for a shot. We lose
confidence in our ability to make sound decisions, and the
wires become crossed during mid-match. Pool is a game that
is based on the players making sound decisions and utilizing
good judgement. Take away the player's decision making
abilities and his good judgement and he'll look like a deer
in the headlights.
Have you ever heard the expression, "He's playing over
his head" or "He's playing out of his head"? There is a
such thing as "playing out of your head. Shooting the
object ball into the pocket is a task external from your
mind. By that, I mean that the task is external, and the
thoughts that complete the action are internal. The
internal thoughts are the motor functions that are necessary
to complete the task, such as looking at the cue ball,
looking at the object ball, lining up the shot, getting down
in your stance, placing the shaft of your cue in your bridge
hand, gripping the butt of the cue, performing your practice
strokes, having your tip contact the cue ball, your follow
through, watching the cue ball make contact with the object
ball, watching the object ball reach its destination, and
standing up straight to prepare for the next shot. I don't
think any of us need to meticulously prepare to execute any
of those tasks, as by now they should be second nature to
you. Many of us do concentrate on these tasks while we are
choking. Let me explain.
Many of us become indecisive by "second guessing" our
decisions. What we should strive for is having all of our
decisions made before we get into our shooting stance. All
of our planning should be done before we bend over the
shot. If we are planning our position routes or our shot
options while down in our shooting stance, we are a big
underdog. Plan, then execute. Get out of your mind.
On the same token, learn to recognize your opponent's
indecisiveness. The deer in the headlights look goes both
ways. Nothing shakes a pool player's confidence more than
the sinking feeling of despair and bewilderment. Recognize
this and go for the jugular.

Bad Habit #6: Rushing through the rack.

Though shooting quickly is quite intimidating, it opens
the door for many things to go wrong. The first thing to go
is our ability to SEE the table. We are so busy shooting
the balls in at light speed that we forget to read the rack
properly, or we completely eliminate or condense our
pre-shot routine. The most common habit is not staying down
on the shot. We open the door to carelessness and
eventually make a tiny error on a simple shot that we should
have made.
There is no advantage to rushing through the rack.
This habit brings forth carelessness. If you need this
explained any further, all I can say is, "a rushed job is
certaintly not the best job that could have been done".

Bad Habit #7: Limited shotmaking ability.

Shotmaking is essential. I don't care how good of a
position expert you are, sooner or later you will be faced
with a tester and have to come through with your best
shotmaking. We would all like to be straight in on every
shot, but that is not always the case, therefore we must
prepare ourselves by knowing how to make the tough rail
biters and bank shots. This could either be your Waterloo
or your ace in the hole.

Bad Habit #8: Losing control of the cue ball.

A mental as well as physical error which is mainly the
fault of having your brain concentrating on one task (making
the object ball) as opposed to concentrating on both
shotmaking and cue ball position. Cue ball control is
essential. Contrary to popular belief, the cue ball will
not do anything that you don't tell it to do. Cue ball
mastery is much easier to achieve than mental mastery. This
is a prime example of how the brain likes to do it's own
thing when placed in pressure situations. Our mind and body
must work in unison if we are to perform our best under
pressure. More about this under Bad Habit #10.


Bad Habit #9: Overconfidence.

This bad habit comes from a basic lack of respect for
the complexity of the game of pool. We all know that the
balls roll funny for everybody. The main problem with being
"overconfident" is that we tend to trash talk while being in
that state of mind. Nothing disgusts me more than an
arrogant player who has no respect for the complexity of the
game. Being overconfident can cause its share of problems.
We tend to rely more on our arrogance than on our
abilities. We begin to make flashy shots and position
routes. We lose our mental focus and believe we are in
"Dead Stroke" when all we are doing is being a pompous ass.
Carelessness is the substance of overconfidence. Remember
that, above anything else.

Bad Habit #10: Choking.

Choking occurs when the mind is so flustered that it
can no longer effectively communicate with the body,
therefore altering our normal motor functions. Our brain
becomes overloaded due to increased excitement or pressure,
and we do exactly what we don't want to do, we choke.
Shooting the nine ball into the corner pocket is a task
external of the mind. When we are in "dead Stroke" our
focus is almost completely external. That is why it hard
for us to remember what was going on when we were running
rack after rack. That is why we say that a player is
playing "out of his head". When we choke, we are playing
inside our head. The wires become overloaded and too much
information is being passed from our brain to shooting arm.
The wires start smoking and we choke.


Lessons in 9 Ball
by Blackjack David Sapolis
copies available for $10

Jay M
11-04-2002, 09:09 AM
ROFL!!! This is a great post. In someone else's break speed post I actually used the same exact words that you did. I wasn't trying to plagiarize you...lol it was a total coincidence, I posted that before I read this post
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>
"Never
sacrifice ACCURACY for POWER."
<hr></blockquote>
I used this EXACT phrase without the quotes.


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>
which means
that we need to abandon the idea of pot luck position
<hr></blockquote>

I mentioned that it would be "potluck" if you got a shot.


just further proof that GMTA (Great Minds Think Alike)

(I also thought that this post deserved a bump back up to the top to get it above the WPBA thread, this one is much more informative)

Jay M

stickman
11-04-2002, 09:58 AM
I love your thoughts on breaking. They coincide with my own, and my instructor's.

Tom_In_Cincy
11-04-2002, 04:54 PM
David,

What took you so long to come to CCB?

Been luking and reading your posts on RSB for a couple of years.. maybe more.

Thanks for sharing you thoughts with the CCB forum readers.

11-04-2002, 05:34 PM
This is why I have been trying (unsuccessfully, obviously) to get away from this place. You just made two posts on "habits" that are full of very bad advice. But I can't step in and correct you, because people will complain. Or they will sit and argue and argue, despite the fact that they have only been playing Pool for a matter of months.

So what's the point?

stickman
11-04-2002, 05:48 PM
Mike, I'd be glad to hear what you disagree with and why. I see nothing wrong with disagreeing, as long as both parties are civil and don't become slanderous, etc.

11-04-2002, 07:26 PM
#1: The break.
In a nutshell, his and Scott Lee's views on break make the assumption that is is not possible to hit hard and control the cueball. Well it is. It is more difficult than a softer break, and it takes alot of time and work to develop. But it can be done. And it SHOULD be done if you have any aspirations of ever being a pro level player. His statement earlier regarding "tensing up" when trying to hit the break hard is exactly what I talked about and warned against in a couple of very lenghty, in-depth posts I have made here previously on the subject of breaking with power. To take the attitude that breaking hard is a bad thing to do because most will tense up when doing so is not an informed, positive-thinking approach. It is an uninformed, defeatist approach. You have a student that tries to hit the break hard and tenses up in doing so? Then teach them to hit the break hard properly. You can teach people to generate power properly, which includes staying loose and relaxed. I know, because I used to be a martial arts instructor.

#2. The center-of-the-table approach to position.
Very beginner-stuff. It's okay to recommend that as general advice to players that do not know how to go about running out a rack. But advising it in the strong terms he was is completely inappopriate for more advanced players. That is not how world-class 9-ball is played. Watch the pro's play, and see how often they leave themselves somewhere other than the center of the table.

Here's an example:
Do you want to leave yourself in the center of the table like this?
START(
%Ho7W6%II0R4%P\0P0%\f7_1%eC3a2

)END

Or would you rather leave yourself like this, and take this shot?
START(
%Ho7W6%II0R4%Po2P0%Uo4U7%Vo1Q0%YM3I4%ZP8D8%[R5E4%\k6[1%]l9Z3
%^o0V9%eB0`6
)END

#3. The "keep it as simple as possible" approach.
Again, very beginner stuff. There are times that it is more appropriate to go three rails than it is one. Let me give you an example.

You are playing 9-ball, and have ball-in hand...
Bad way:
START(
%G\4G9%Hm6F8%II0R4%P\2L6%U\5I6%V\4K9%]c6M3%^]0H7%eB4b2

)END

START(
%Hm6F8%II0R4%Pe9N6%Ul4H2%Vf5N0%WN8I6%Xb1D8%]c5D9%^l4G3%eA6b1

)END

Good way:
START(
%G\4G9%Hm6F8%II0R4%P\1L7%U\5I6%V\2K8%]a4G3%^]0H7%eB5a2

)END

START(
%Hm6F8%II0R4%Pc2G2%Uk9G6%Vd4G3%Wp1Z1%Xs1Q1%YT7D7%Z n7Z8%[O5H5
%\S2D1%]r9O7%^m4G7%eC3a2
)END

My best friend is a world-champion who has been on ESPN a number of times as both a player and a commentator. I gave this exact scenario to him once, because I had someone else advocate the "least rails possible" approach to me, and the "bad" way above is how they recommended doing that that shot. The reason the "good" way is better is because it is completely natural, and brings the cueball right into the position zone. Just some running english, hit the right speed, and you naturally have the position you need. I described the "draw it off the seven, then draw with outside english off the 8 to spin one rail back down towards the 9" approach to him, and he said "No, that's no good. Your way is the correct way to do it." Since this guy is a champion pro, and I have personally witnessed him run 8 straight racks of 9-ball in a race to 9 (9-foot Gold Crown table), I'll take his word for it.

The reason why the "good way" above doesn't seem like it to some players is that it looks more difficult and complicated. But it actually is a much more natural shot than the other way, where only one rail is contacted.


The advice he gave may be good for struggling D and C players trying to bring some sense of order to their approach to the game. But it is not good advice to people aspiring to become pro-level players. You will not get there following the advice laid out in the two posts in question.

DSAPOLIS
11-04-2002, 11:38 PM
Mr. Mike

I tried to contact you away from the message board to ask you some questions privately, but was unable to do so. You are entitled to your opinion of what I posted. You make some points that are extremely "situational" and go on further to make the error of saying that to play pool at the highest level, one cannot use my advice or instruction to get there. I have in the past worked with several top professional players in both men and women's pool. I don't say this to brag, I say it to point out that simplicity has its advantages in instruction, and in playing. There are more complicated ways of explaining things, and there is a lot of useless complicated stuff out there that can confuse a lot of beginners. My instruction can help players at any level. One of the key points in learning is that the student must have an open mind and the willingness to accept the information. You obviously know more than the rest of us, so feel free to add some of your own posts that deal with these topics. Bashing what I have written serves no purpose except the fact that it causes you to come across as negative and judgemental. Perhaps in the future you can enlighten the rest of us with your knowledge of the game in a positive way.

stickman
11-05-2002, 12:28 AM
#1. Mike, I agree that it is not impossible to hit hard and control the cueball, but it is very difficult for the vast majority of players. The majority are more effective shooting with less force and more control.

#2. Center of the table? Yep, I agree this is not always the best way to play shape. This is something of a generalization.

#3 Keep it simple? In my opinion, good advice for most. The more difficult route to shape, the greater chance of error for most of us. If you are precise enough to go two or three rails, and confident in your ability, then that is the way to shoot. I do agree with letting the cueball take a natural path, rather than trying to force it to do something else, in most instances.

So overall, I don't disagree, but think as a whole, the advice is good for most players. By the same token, it's possible to achieve the same results by two entirely different methods. A person has to know there own capabilities.

bluewolf
11-05-2002, 04:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Mike:</font><hr> This is why I have been trying (unsuccessfully, obviously) to get away from this place. You just made two posts on "habits" that are full of very bad advice. But I can't step in and correct you, because people will complain. Or they will sit and argue and argue, despite the fact that they have only been playing Pool for a matter of months.

So what's the point? <hr></blockquote>

LOL MIke. Everybody has an opinion. The insight is good. I listen to what people like scott lee and others here say and then try it out. If it works, I keep it. If it doesnt I store it in my memory archives, in case I need it later.

I discovered my stroke. After all of the lessons, I one day started stroking. It is not exactly like scotts or randys except for not dropping the elbow and a complete follow through. I do a few drills but mainly am enjoying this feeling that my arm and bridge are there for support, it is the cue that is doing the work.

As far as breaks go, I cannot hit break speed yet. But if I concentrate, I can split up all of the balls with a relatively slow to medium speed stroke. I guess it is not hard enough yet for balls to go in, but I did not want to sacrifice accuracy for speed and power.

I dont know you mike but i do know this. even people like randy g and allison fisher are constantly going to pool schools and learning new things. Randy says allison is always looking for ways to improve.

"The mind is like a parachute, it only functions when it is open"

Off to work. hope everybody has fun today.

Laura

bluewolf
11-05-2002, 04:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Mike:</font><hr> #1: The break.
In a nutshell, his and Scott Lee's views on break make the assumption that is is not possible to hit hard and control the cueball. Well it is. It is more difficult than a softer break, and it takes alot of time and work to develop. But it can be done. And it SHOULD be done if you have any aspirations of ever being a pro level player. His statement earlier regarding "tensing up" when trying to hit the break hard is exactly what I talked about and warned against in a couple of very lenghty, in-depth posts I have made here previously on the subject of breaking with power. To take the attitude that breaking hard is a bad thing to do because most will tense up when doing so is not an informed, positive-thinking approach. It is an uninformed, defeatist approach. You have a student that tries to hit the break hard and tenses up in doing so? Then teach them to hit the break hard properly. You can teach people to generate power properly, which includes staying loose and relaxed. I know, because I used to be a martial arts instructor.

. <hr></blockquote>

Oh, you are the mike that sent me those nice articles and I have them saved to word docs.Right now I need to master control on the medium speed break and make sure my fundamentals are nearly flawless, if I am ever going to be good at pool.

Later, when I am better,I will learn the faster speed stroke. It is good I get to hear so many ideas. Some of them I am ready to put into my beginner's game now, and some I will put into my game later.

I have my own ideas about how karate relates to pool, which does make your ideas interesting. In punching, I was loose and tightened on the impact. In the stroke,everything loose loose loose for now.

I havent made my mind up about the break with so many opinions floating around.I will decide later once I have 100% control over the medium speed break and am ready for the next level.

thanks for the articles.

bw

11-05-2002, 11:49 AM
That's exactly what you should do, bluewolf. First crawl, then walk, then run. Definately first learn control with a medium stroke before trying to progress to hitting the balls harder. I agree with that 100%.

BTW...the reason that in martial arts you tense up at the very last instant is that there needs to be some tension introduced to provide some strength and stability in your hand. You can't punch a 100 pound punching bag with a loose hand. You will sprain your wrist if you do. But in Pool, you can stay loose the whole way through.

11-05-2002, 12:08 PM
Here is the problem that I have...

Yes, your advice IS for beginners and intermediate players. And no, pros do not shoot the way you recommend. I know lots of pros, too. A couple of them are coaches of mine. And I can assure you they will give the kind of advice you give to beginning players. But they will tell advanced players that they have to move beyond the principles of soft break, minimum number of rails on shape, always trying to get to center of the table, etc.

I gave "situational" examples, yes. But that's what they were: examples.

I didn't mean that one can't use your advice to get better. What I mean is that to become a great player one is going to have to move far beyond your advice. I don't want impressionable beginning and intermediate players here misled into thinking that following your advice will allow them to attain professional status someday. It won't. They need to know and understand this. Follow what you say for now, and later they will have to start going in new directions in their game.

So you should frame your advice in that context. You should let people know that this is advice for beginning and intermediate players.

You are wrong that "My instruction can help players at any level." Do you think your instruction would be of any use to someone (and this is NOT me) who is already capable of getting up and running 5 or 6 racks of 9-ball in a $5000 set? It wouldn't be. I don't think your advice would help out any of the pro's and road players I know. You instruction is for beginning and intermediate players. And that is fine. There is nothing at all wrong with that. But tell people that.

The reason I get so upset over this is that bad advice is one of the things that is hurting the game. There are too many unqualified people out there giving bad advice. There are too many people out there being misled. People need to understand that your way of playing 9-ball is NOT the way they want to play this game someday if they want to be a professional-level player. It is a way to play the game for now, as they develop their skills and knowledge of the game. But it will have to be left behind someday if they ever want to reach a high skill level in Pool. You need to tell people that.

I don't keep an open mind. I am very careful of who I listen to. There is a small group of people, all of them professional champions and personal friends of mine, that I will listen to for advice. Everyone else gets filtered out.

11-05-2002, 12:31 PM
"If you are precise enough to go two or three rails, and confident in your ability, then that is the way to shoot."

Stickman,

That is what I am currently working with one of my coaches on to further develop my game at the moment. You know that three rail, outside english shot I showed to get from the 8 to the 9? That shots a no-brainer to me. Very common shot. Piece of cake to make that shot on the 8 and leave myself very makable shape on the 9.

But what I am working on now is the minute control that can be exercised by very small changes to how the tip is placed on the cueball and how that has minute changes on the cueball path. For example, I do drills where the cueball has to hit that third rail at 2 and 1/2 diamonds. Not 2. Not 3. But 2 and 1/2. And then, make a small change (hit the cueball a little higher) and hit the 3rd rail at the 2nd diamond. Not 1 and 1/2. Not 2 and 1/2. But 2.

There are lots of different shots like that, that one of my coaches has me setting up and working on. It's easy to understand and know this stuff. But it is very difficult to be able to consistently do it, especially as you go from tournament to tournament playing with different tables and balls. It's the little minute things (like being able to hit the rail at the 2nd diamond, no more, no less) that make the difference between running one rack and running 6.

cheesemouse
11-05-2002, 12:32 PM
Mike,
I gotta go with you on this one Mike. This knowledgable gentlemans insights into some mental sides of the game are interesting but he certainly is wrong about the break. His this is it style of writting is disturbing and misleading unless stated that this style of play will get you only part of the way to the top. If anybody thinks they can win at top level 9-ball (no sardo/crap) w/o a solid bone crushing break they are just whistling as they walk by the graveyard. Me thinks this guy is still hustling... /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

11-05-2002, 12:37 PM
WOW! WHAT IS GOING ON IN THE WORLD???!?!!

First, yesterday I see the "8-Mile" trailer and hear an Eminem song that I LOVE (the rest of his worthless crap could all be burned in a music studio fire, and it would be no loss), and today, Cheesemouse and I agree on something!

I hope the end of the world isn't coming soon...
/ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

eg8r
11-05-2002, 12:38 PM
Mike,
This is purely speculation on my part, but I believe when one says to use<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>the "least rails possible" approach <hr></blockquote>, I don't believe they are meaning at all times. You were wonderful enough to show us one example but I am sure there 10 times as many examples to refute what you are saying. There are many times when the player can follow 3 rails to get position or they could use<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>the "least rails possible" approach <hr></blockquote> and just draw the ball backwards.

Don't be so quick to say everything is wrong because he chose to explain the philosophy that works most of the time.

eg8r (this is all my opinion and way to disagree without flaming)

11-05-2002, 12:40 PM
I agree with you, eg8r. But the problem is that he is MUCH too strong in his wording. He presents the information as THE WAY to play EVERY SHOT. And it isn't.

stickman
11-05-2002, 12:52 PM
Mike, I'm envious. I don't have the opportunity to practice enough to aquire that type of precision. For me, the Keep it Simple approach serves me best for now. If I'm ever able to get my pool table covered, I hope to see that change. I hope you are successful in your quest to achieve the degree of precision you seek. I love to see that level of skill displayed, and can only hope to someday get there myself. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Rich R.
11-05-2002, 12:59 PM
I think many of the posters are saying the same thing, but with different words.
The "least rails possible" and keeping the position "simple" in some cases could mean one rail and, in others situations, it could mean three rails. I would much rather play a shot with natural running english, that goes three rails, instead of a shot that I have to use draw in combination with side english to go one rail to the spot I want. It you combine the "least possible rails" with the "simplest" position, it could mean different things for different situations.
Rich R.

cheesemouse
11-05-2002, 01:07 PM
Mike,
I thought you might get a charge out of that.....hehehe LOL /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif Hey, I calls'm like I sees'm...it's a tone thing...

eg8r
11-05-2002, 01:13 PM
Mike,

I am taking from your words directly <blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>The reason I get so upset over this is that bad advice is one of the things that is hurting the game. There are too many unqualified people out there giving bad advice. There are too many people out there being misled. <hr></blockquote>
It was not "bad" advice. As you stated, <blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Yes, your advice IS for beginners and intermediate players. <hr></blockquote>Just a question for you, who do you think is on this board looking for help? I mean in all this infinite wisdom your pros are teaching you, do you really think they are the ones that come to this board. You need to settle down a bit and quit sounding so presumptuous.

I also tend to wonder why you feel you are qualified to claim what he is posting is wrong.

One thing I do appreciate from your postings: You are not a name dropper. Thanks for not bringing in your <blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>professional champions<hr></blockquote> to this thread.

eg8r

eg8r
11-05-2002, 01:14 PM
I agree with you here also.

eg8r

eg8r
11-05-2002, 01:19 PM
I did not say <blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>draw with side english to go one rail to the spot.<hr></blockquote>I just said draw.

However, given these changes, I agree with you. I am a firm believer in getting to my spot with the least amount of work. Meaning I would rather draw if that is easier, or use follow if that was easier. My position choices generally are not based on how many rails I need to go, but instead based on how the rest of the balls lay and which route will be the easiest to get to the same spot.

eg8r

11-05-2002, 01:33 PM
It was not bad advice for beginners and intermediate players. It was bad advice in the way it was framed, as "the way" to play the game for everyone of every skill level.

I think the people on this board looking for help deserve good advice. They need to know the difference between "this is good advice for now" and "this is how top-pro's play the game." I would think that at least some of the players coming here looking for help have aspirations of becoming really great players. They deserve a proper frame of reference when advice is given.

I feel qualified because of the company I keep. I seriously doubt most posters here have access to some of the best players in the world like I do. When I want to know how to play a shot, I don't come here and look at posts that say "minimum rails possible, try to get to center of table". I'll go and ask a pro player and say "Hey, how would you play this shot?" When I have well-known pro's telling me one way, and someone I've never heard of on a BBS telling me another way...who would you listen to?

I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic or not with the "name dropping" comment. But if you weren't being sarcastic, thanks for noticing. Who my friends are is my business.

11-05-2002, 01:46 PM
When advice like this is given, tell people that this is advice applicable to beginning and intermediate players. Tell them that this advice is just a step in their long journey towards becoming a great player. Tell them that this is not the way that world-class players play the game. But tell them that they first have to walk before they run, and that for now, following this advice will help beginning and intermediate players.

A proper frame of reference is all I ask.

eg8r
11-05-2002, 01:49 PM
No sir, I was not being sarcastic at all. I do appreciate it.

As far as being qualified due to the company you keep, I don't agree with that. I keep company with some of the greatest engineers in world (this is based solely on the stealth technology, you can only guess where I work), but this does not qualify me to start questioning someone else on thrust-vectoring or avionics.

Just question people based on what you can do and not what your friends can do. Base it on your current skill level not what you hope to become.

eg8r

11-05-2002, 01:53 PM
I disagree with the latter part of your post. It's not about what I can and can't do. It is aboult consulting multiple sources for information. When I hear "abc" from one source, and "xyz" from another, I take a look at who it is that is telling me these two different things.

But even accepting what you say, I play well enough to where his advice would RUIN my game. I moved beyond "break soft, minimum number of rails, always try to get to the center of the table" a long time ago.

eg8r
11-05-2002, 01:58 PM
Well sounds fair. At your stage in the game you could have ignored this post completely and spent more time on your precision position.

eg8r

11-05-2002, 02:03 PM
I could have, but I am concerned for others. I don't like to see people have their games hurt by bad advice.

This is why I said I am becoming more and more unhappy with this board. I see something that is obviously (as it was framed, being the way to play 9-ball, regardless of skill) bad advice, and I call it out, people tell me to ignore it and let it be. Why? Just sit by and have a bunch of impressionable beginning and intermediate players incorrectly think that this is how top-level 9-ball is played? It isn't, and they need to know that.

But you are telling me to ignore that, and just let them go on believing something that isn't true. Okay, fine. C'ya.

MikeM
11-05-2002, 02:04 PM
Sounds like you guys can already run racks. I can't. It was clear to me that these posts were written for those of us us who need to keep it simple to inprove our game. I think you're both way off base in your comments. Especially titling a reponse "You don't know what you are talking about." I don't see where any claims were made that this strategy is the be-all end-all of nine ball instruction. I read the 10 Good Habits last night and today at lunch beat a guy who usually cleans my clock at nine ball. I think they helped. Thanks, David.

And BTW Mike, if you would listen to whole rap albums you would find more than a few tracks that you would like!

MM (they've been calling me M&amp;M since before that guy was born)

11-05-2002, 02:10 PM
Actually, I LOVE DMX and Tupac. Have every album DMX ever made, and a few Tupac albums. Tupac...what a loss. Sometime when I'm in Vegas I gotta go see the spot where "it" happened.

MikeM
11-05-2002, 02:14 PM
Yes Tupac was a huge talent. I saw DMX in Vegas last year. He showed up at The Beach one night and did a couple of songs.

I'm still bummed over Jam Master Jay's murder. I was a huge fan of Run DMC in the '80s.

MM..."Y'all gonna make me lose my mind!"

eg8r
11-05-2002, 02:33 PM
MM, I also do not agree with changing the title. Thank goodness it was not me. On being way off base with my comments, how can I be, I feel that my comments are closely in line with yours. If you read it again, you will see that I do not agree with Mike's (Mike was saying Dave was wrong) opinion on Dave's post. I also believe the thread is for those that are not pros, and those that might need a little help with the smaller things. I do not personally like breaking the way that was offered but I definitely do not think the poster was wrong. I do agree with keeping it simple, and using the least amount of rails. There are many times that a "pro" will let the cue ball get out of control. I truly believe this is because they might have been trying to get position a tougher way than someone else might have chosen (this might be why I am not a pro)

I can not run racks. I have run a rack before, but that is not a regular thing.

eg8r

eg8r
11-05-2002, 02:42 PM
Don't go away. You just seem to think you have the knowledge of top level pros. If what you have to say is correct, then why don't you have the real knowledge base come on here and refute it. You are just regurgitating things you hear in the pool room or things that are being shown to you to help out "your" game.

All I (for that matter, who am I)ask is that you post a new thread and help the board out with your profound knowledge. I ask that you also leave good threads, threads that post helpful information for people who are not pros, alone.

Quit trying to help the world and help yourself. I am sure the original thread was meant to help those that are having a problem with their game. If a person is having trouble breaking hard, then why shouldn't they slow the break down and make sure they contacting the one ball correctly?

eg8r &lt;~~~I am not arguing but it is sounding that way, so I will stop.

cheesemouse
11-05-2002, 02:56 PM
MikeM,
I believe this DSAPOLIS has his views in print and for sale. He sounds like a very knowledgable and perhaps even a noble gentleman. I don't have a beef with the information he presents just in the finality style of his presentation. I think Mike saw what I saw and he busted it. For what it's worth the information is good the author just fails to point out that as your game advances you will leave his instruction in the dust. I hope your game gets good use of the info presented and then I hope your game goes beyound and above. I do like the head trip info.

11-05-2002, 02:58 PM
I'm not sure why you are so critical of this post. First of all, "knowing someone" doesn't give you the credentials you seem to think you have. I don't see what is wrong with this post. Yes, most of the advice is very basic, but so what? As a general rule of thumb, there is some truth in everything he posted. Obviously there are going to be times when the "general rule of thumb" can't be adhered to, but it doesn't make his advice wrong. To go back to his advice being "too basic" to help anyone but a beginner, that is completely inaccurate. At any level, sometimes when a player develops some form of bad habit, it can be traced back to the most basic element. I don't mean to flame here, but I think what I am about to say is valid given your posts. You know some players. They helped you with your game. I don't see anything coming from you that makes me think you have your own credentials. I'm not sure who you know, but I might have played them in a tournament match somewhere ... and you know what else? I might have won that match! I am not saying this to brag or say I'm a great player, but rather to say that not all of us here are beginners with nothing valuable to say. You keep saying you want to leave because of "all the bad advice here", but you offer no advice to back that up. All you do is critisize others here that do offer it. I agree that often times there are people spouting off when they don't know what they're talking about, but that isn't always the case, and you need to get down off your high horse and realize that there are people out there, other than yourself and your champion buddies, that might have something valuable to say. Since you sound like you're an aspiring champion I'm going to give YOU some advice. Take it or leave it. Being closed-minded isn't going to get you anywhere. Many people will give you advice. A good deal of it will be garbage. However, you need to be willing to hear it all, and be able to distinguish the garbage from the good advice. Disagreeing with anything anyone tells you because of some "know-it-all" mentality isn't going to do anything but hurt your own chances of reaching your potential. I think that everyone you meet in the pool room probably has at least 1 piece of valuable advice. You need to have an open mind so that when that 1 piece of good advice comes out, you hear it.

11-05-2002, 03:05 PM
I am not just "regurgitating". I do have quite a bit of understanding of the subject at hand.

So you don't want me to help people, eh? Okay, fine.

11-05-2002, 03:13 PM
I have to say that there is some truth to what the original post said about the break, however, it may have been presented wrong because I'm under the impression you guys think he said to break soft. Break as hard as you can control! There is much more to breaking than hitting them hard. He's wrong that "most often you'll scratch or fly off the table" (paraphrased), but he's right that you don't have to kill the rack. What good is a 35mph break if you don't hit the 1-ball solid? I'd rather hit it 28mph and solid! Even Earl, who, in my opinion, still has the best break out there doesn't try to crush the rack EVERY time. He adjusts to the conditions. I've seen him break as soft as Corey (I didn't witness this one first hand as it was in Tokyo, and I wasn't there, but I did see the video), and as hard as Bustamante! The idea that you need to hit the damn paint off the 1-ball isn't right. However, you DO need to hit it solid if you want any sort of good results. I think the entire point the guy was trying to make was not to try to break so hard that you lose control of the cue ball. If you can hit it 40mph (an obvious exaggeration) and still control the cue ball, I'd say that sounds like a hell of a break! However, if you can hit it 40mph, but you can't control the cue ball, what is the point?

eg8r
11-05-2002, 03:41 PM
Well said.

eg8r

eg8r
11-05-2002, 03:49 PM
I did not say that, let me try this. I will quote me, then I will quote you.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>All I (for that matter, who am I)ask is that you post a new thread and help the board out with your profound knowledge. <hr></blockquote> Let me explain this for you, I am asking that you post a new thread and tell us something interesting that will help our game and help us play like the pros.

Here is your quote
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>So you don't want me to help people, eh? Okay, fine. <hr></blockquote>This is the point where you did not pay attention to my post. I have highlighted the word that is out of place. I ask that you do help us, just in a new thread with information you deem correct!

eg8r

11-05-2002, 04:44 PM
I will step in briefly just to clarify a few things to Mike. In no way does anything in any of my writings say that what I am saying is "The Only Way You Should Do Things". If that is how you read into it (Obviously due to your attitude) well that is something you will have to deal with on your own. As far as saying that I don't know what I am talking about, you are entitled to your opinion, but my reputation as a player, instructor, and author speaks for itself. As far as saying that my instruction is basic, it is intentionally written that way so that all can get the message. In my opinion, you are very unhappy with the state of this message board, yet you do nothing but corrupt it with your petty arguments and negativity. How this aids your cause puzzles me. I was initially polite with you and put forth the idea of perhaps hearing a bit of what you had to say on the subjects I covered. You must understand that the topics that were posted were excerpts from a book, which when read in its entirety covers more than just bad habits and good habits. To say that I do not know what I am talking about is absurd, and rather troll-ish. I challenge you to express your views and pass along your "superior" knowledge to the rest of us. If not, I believe I read that you expressed a desire to leave this board. What is stopping you? Obviously you are unhappy with everything and everybody.

Blackjack - who believes that if you see more than 2 jerks in one day, look in the mirror and you'll find the third.

SPetty
11-05-2002, 04:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Blackjack, who has the same name as my black cat and who needs to remember to log in so I'll know who it is...:</font><hr> ...yet you do nothing but corrupt it with your petty arguments ...<hr></blockquote>hey... Hey... HEY... ... oh, petty, not spetty /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif hahaha

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Blackjack:</font><hr> - who believes that if you see more than 2 jerks in one day, look in the mirror and you'll find the third.<hr></blockquote>Wow, now that's deep and pretty much true.

David, I like your posts. Your attitude seems good as well. Keep 'em coming if you can.

Sid_Vicious
11-05-2002, 05:15 PM
Thanks for the pointers, I read every word and admit quilt in several and yet strengths in many. sid

Sid_Vicious
11-05-2002, 05:57 PM
I did a word find for soft and nothing came back at me within the power break section of those bad habits. One more thing, I have noticed a major difference(IMO) in power breakers of the past, one being Archer and the other being J. Lee. Both of them have backed off on their "hammer &amp; hop up" in the air for all the power they can muster, and more times than not two thing happen now. The one is made AND the CB stays on the table with position. Neither of them could claim that consistence of control in the past(AIMHO.) Sure they used to awe the crowd making 3+ balls, hell I've seen 6 made only to leave themselves hooked without a shot on the next ball. sid

Scott Lee
11-05-2002, 11:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> I did a word find for soft and nothing came back at me within the power break section of those bad habits. One more thing, I have noticed a major difference(IMO) in power breakers of the past, one being Archer and the other being J. Lee. Both of them have backed off on their "hammer &amp; hop up" in the air for all the power they can muster, and more times than not two thing happen now. The one is made AND the CB stays on the table with position. Neither of them could claim that consistence of control in the past(AIMHO.) Sure they used to awe the crowd making 3+ balls, hell I've seen 6 made only to leave themselves hooked without a shot on the next ball. sid <hr></blockquote>

I can't speak for Archer, but Jeanette Lee went to Jerry Briesath to work on her break...again, getting back to BASIC fundamentals (proving that the theory of "simple instruction" CAN work for all players, even pros!). After spending time with Jerry (who, like myself, concentrates on the stroke), Jeanette went to Japan and won the gold medal in the World Championships.

IMO, it is not a matter of one way or another being right or wrong, or better or worse. Any well-educated player, pro or not, knows that there are six ways to play ANY shot. Beginners might only know one. Advanced players might know three or four. Pros know all six (or more)
...and make the choice on which one to use according to the situation and how they feel at the moment. I think Mike and David both have valid points, but David wins out overall, in instucting for the masses. The "Pros" will never be more than a flyspeck...a couple thousand out of the millions of people who want to learn to play. I say teach to them...let the 'pros' and aspiring pros just learn from each other.

David suggestions are right on for all but the most elite players. To suggest they are "all wrong" is both ludicrous and immature. Your ideas are good, Mike. Your delivery is malicious and demanding of those that try to pawn off the "my way or the highway" concept of learning. Others have tried to come in here and preach that they are right, and everyone else is wrong. Nothing is always right or wrong. That's why there are so many choices. Just one reason why it's impossible to be "on" all the time...there are just too many variables.

Scott Lee ~ believes simple pictures are best

bigbro6060
11-05-2002, 11:31 PM
I agree, very well said

11-06-2002, 08:17 AM
Mike, I believe in David Sapolis' approach. His info is very useful when us Pro Players are not getting the "rolls." When this happens, we must go "back to the basics". So in a sense, knowing how to "retrieve" back to the "simple approach" helps any amateur, intermediate, or Pro Player obtain their goal of "winning" at the pool table.

Just had to give my 2 cents advice!

9BallChump

Sid_Vicious
11-06-2002, 10:57 AM
How do you fix #10 after it has become an imbedded problem in missing the money balls???sid

Wally_in_Cincy
11-06-2002, 12:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> How do you fix #10 after it has become an imbedded problem in missing the money balls???sid <hr></blockquote>

Sid, you've been saying this for at least 3 years now. Maybe you need a sports psychologist or hypnosis or something. Seriously.

rackmup
11-06-2002, 12:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: mike:</font><hr>Why? Just sit by and have a bunch of impressionable beginning and intermediate players incorrectly think that this is how top-level 9-ball is played? It isn't, and they need to know that.<hr></blockquote>

I think one has to give the benefit of the doubt to these "impressionable" players. Let's assume most of them are of average intelligence. If the advice doesn't work, they'll ignore it and find something that does.

DSAPOLIS wasn't doing anything wrong. His intentions were meaningful and honorable. Leave it at that. There are simply too many people here at the CCB who want to "run the show" as though they are the end-all-be-all of our game.

BTW...I have to ask: So you hang around Pro players. You ask them for advice. They give it to you. You accept it and try it. What do you do if it still doesn't work for you? I mean...if you were of or near their levels of play, you wouldn't need to ask how to make a particular shot, would you?

I just don't see the difference between your supposed, un-named friendships and that of what DSAPOLIS was offering. The biggest difference was that he didn't wait for a player to ask.

Regards,

Ken

Sid_Vicious
11-06-2002, 12:58 PM
Yea at least 3 years, is an understatement. I'm still looking for the quick fix, stubborn and too cheap to get on the roll book of any psychologist. They all seem to state about the same thing on day one, "This may take 6 months to 2 years to correct, so don't expect anything quick."

I've actually become less of a choker, and in two years more I could have it licked totally, especially after gleaning a few more gems from this group along the way. Besides, it's just not macho to go to a psychologist ;-) sid~~~too stubborn for his own good, just ask my ex-wife

Wally_in_Cincy
11-06-2002, 01:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Yea at least 3 years, is an understatement. I'm still looking for the quick fix, stubborn and too cheap to get on the roll book of any psychologist. They all seem to state about the same thing on day one, "This may take 6 months to 2 years to correct, so don't expect anything quick."

I've actually become less of a choker, and in two years more I could have it licked totally, especially after gleaning a few more gems from this group along the way. Besides, it's just not macho to go to a psychologist ;-) sid~~~too stubborn for his own good, just ask my ex-wife <hr></blockquote>

Yeah I'm way too cheap for that too /ccboard/images/icons/laugh.gif

I'm glad it's getting better for you. I don't have an answer but when I had a problem choking on the 8-ball (money ball) I started to just drop and shoot with very little thought. After a few matches the choking went away. Not recommending it, but it worked for me.

Sid_Vicious
11-06-2002, 02:51 PM
That rings a bell, I had a particular Saturday playing against a very good player(and friend)where I was doing kind of the same thing,,,moving at the same gait into the winning shot and no hesitation. I was complimented a couple of hours later with "You're sure not having any trouble finishing today." I find that it's like walking a tightrope without a net when there a stack of cash to do that way. I guess it's maybe the best approach though, No Fear attitude. Then there's a camp out there that says to bear down. Dang, I tend to believe that there's no one answer. Maybe it changes with the situation. Well Duh! you say...sid

Fred Agnir
11-06-2002, 04:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: rackmup:</font><hr> I think one has to give the benefit of the doubt to these "impressionable" players. Let's assume most of them are of average intelligence. If the advice doesn't work, they'll ignore it and find something that does.
<hr></blockquote>
From a forum perspective, I find it important that someone reminds the would-be advice beneficiary that the advice is of the first step, orthodox variety.

I don't think however that the point of the post and the counter-point of the reminder should be run into the ground. But, someone on both sides invariably will do just that depending on the tone of the post. It's in the way the information is presented, and likewise how the counter is presented that perpetuates the bull$hit back-and-forth.

Fred &lt;~~~ thinks David's posts are very helpful, and that Mike has a valid response.

jjinfla
11-08-2002, 06:22 PM
Let's see. You guys are upset because blackjack's comments should be specifically prefaced that they are intended for beginners and intermediate players and not for someone who aspires to greatness,i.e., a pro. Well, the beginners and intermediate players probably make up 90%-95% of the pool players. And out of them probably only 1%, if that many, can make it to the pro ranks. So it should be obvious that his comments are addressed to beginners and intermediate players. And Blackjack is not the first person to say "don't give up accuracy for speed" on the break. Sigel says the same thing in his video. But what I think you guys are missing is that, yes, the great pros, have a hammer of a break, but, they have the power break AND accuracy. And if you watch them play and see that they are losing control of the CB on the break they take a little off the power break until they get their accuracy back. Ever see someone make 4 balls on a smashing break only to find himself hooked and has to push out? The opponent is smiling because he is thinking, "thanks guy, now I only need to make 5 balls to run out." Aw, but what do I know? Mike is probably a pro. Or at least has done all the work to become certified as a BCA instructor. So I am sure he is right and I am wrong. Jake

jjinfla
11-08-2002, 07:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Mike:</font><hr> I could have, but I am concerned for others. I don't like to see people have their games hurt by bad advice. <hr></blockquote> Mike, I suggest you sit down and write a book so that we can all gain from your superior knowledge. To me, it appears that you have a knack of finding something you don't agree with and then condemning everything in the article Blackjack wrote. I would like for you to name one Pro who will say that he/she wants a sledgehammer break and doesn't care about accuracy. That they will take their chances on where the cue ball ends up. Off the table, in a pocket, or hooked, and they wouldn't care. Fat chance. The reason they are pros is that they work on accuracy and power at the same time. Sure they slam that ball, but, because they are so talented/skillful they know where that cue ball is going to end up. And I believe that is what Blackjack is saying. Develop your accuracy first, and then increase your speed. Jake~~~"I know you're shooting too hard" quote by Bert Kinister. Mike Sigel in his runout series says accuracy is more important than power.

Ludba
11-08-2002, 09:29 PM
jjinfla,
You are completely misrepresenting Mike's argument. Compare the two statements below. The first is yours; the second is Mike's.

"I would like for you to name one Pro who will say that he/she wants a sledgehammer break and doesn't care about accuracy."

"In a nutshell, his and Scott Lee's views on break make the assumption that is is not possible to hit hard and control the cueball. Well it is. It is more difficult than a softer break, and it takes alot of time and work to develop. But it can be done."

Mike is saying that you can have a powerful break that is accurate, and that is what you should strive for. Pros like Johnny Archer and Francisco Bustamante have exactly this kind of break. Yet you're blaming him for saying the exact opposite.

And you're also quoting Kinister out of context. When he says,"I know you're shooting too hard," he's talking about your regular shots, not the break shot. I know this, because I own the 60-minute workout tape in which he says it.

You have found DSAPOLIS's information useful, and that's great, but after a short while you will recognize that it does not address many of the situations you will encounter in pool. His advice is a good rule of thumb, but you will have to ignore his good rule of thumb for better rules of thumb later on. That's what Mike is pointing out, and the ironic part is that you would probably benefit greatly from heeding his warning instead of attacking his credibility for not having written a book on the subject.

It is important to be critical of the advice you are given. This is true in any area of knowledge, but especially in pool. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG with disagreeing with somebody like DSAPOLIS who obviously has a great deal of knowledge to share. More importantly, it is right for Mike to point out that there is a better way to view things, or that there are glaring exceptions to the rules. That is what a discussion group is for. We learn best by wrestling with ideas rather than blindly accepting someone else's explanation of those ideas, however true the explanation might be.

eg8r
11-08-2002, 11:15 PM
Ludba,

Everything you are saying is just banging around in my head like a weekend pool player. Here is your quote <blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>You have found DSAPOLIS's information useful, and that's great, but after a short while you will recognize that it does not address many of the situations you will encounter in pool. His advice is a good rule of thumb, but you will have to ignore his good rule of thumb for better rules of thumb later on.<hr></blockquote>Can you please point out where in DSAPOLIS' original post he said that this information will be the end all. Do you really think DSAPOLIS really tried to type every single thing in his mind and then clearly and thoughtfully lay out every single example.

Mike was not originally pointing things out like your quote here says<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>His advice is a good rule of thumb, but you will have to ignore his good rule of thumb for better rules of thumb later on. That's what Mike is pointing out<hr></blockquote>This is an exact example of a poster who does not read the entire thread and just jumps in. For the record, Mike has back tracked after he noticed he was not in the majority in his original flame post. If you will please scoll to the top of all the threads, you will see Mike changed the subject heading of the thread. Just in this example alone, will you please tell me how Mike was pointing out the crap you just tried to feed us.

Here is the quote from Mike's first post<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>This is why I have been trying (unsuccessfully, obviously) to get away from this place. You just made two posts on "habits" that are full of very bad advice. But I can't step in and correct you, because people will complain. Or they will sit and argue and argue, despite the fact that they have only been playing Pool for a matter of months.

So what's the point? <hr></blockquote>Mike was never asked to correct him. Instead Mike decided to flame DSAPOLIS about information that Mike knows nothing about. Just because a pro does one thing, that does not make that the only way to go about it, and it certainly does not become the be all end all knowledge for Mike to sling around. I would love to see Mike play against DSAPOLIS and have both them use their own knowledge to play the game with no coaching from said "pro friends."

You are correct at the end of your thread<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>THERE IS NOTHING WRONG with disagreeing with somebody like DSAPOLIS who obviously has a great deal of knowledge to share.<hr></blockquote>I do however point out that THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITHa poster changing the name of the thread in order to flame and then posting this crap!!!(quote from Mike again, sorry for using it twice)<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>This is why I have been trying (unsuccessfully, obviously) to get away from this place. You just made two posts on "habits" that are full of very bad advice. But I can't step in and correct you, because people will complain. Or they will sit and argue and argue, despite the fact that they have only been playing Pool for a matter of months.
<hr></blockquote>

Please read everything and see how it all got started and then comment (I am assuming you have not read everything, I may be wrong, but once it is writing there is nothing you can do to take it back).



eg8r

bluewolf
11-09-2002, 12:46 AM
I have read all of the posts on this topic. I have found that when a writer puts forth their views with confidence, some interpret this as arrogance.

Of course, if David gets a following here because of his writing, that could take attention away from others who want to be seen as 'xperts' &lt;G&gt;

While both mike and David said good things, I cannot help but see EGO rearing its ugly head here.

just my .02

bw

Ludba
11-09-2002, 01:18 AM
eg8r,
I had read the entire thread before I posted. I have been here since DSAPOLIS responded to mike on 11/4, but I never joined in. I want you to know that I'm not being defensive; but I wanted you to know that I didn't just walk in blind and pick a side. And for good measure, I reread the thread just in case I AM being an a-hole.

I think Scott Lee put it best,"Your ideas are good, Mike. Your delivery is malicious...."

eg8r, you are absolutely right about mike changing the title to "You do not know what you are talking about." It was a crappy thing to do, and does nothing but distract from his otherwise legitimate argument. The problem is that he got worked up about the whole thing. He got frustrated with what he sees as a problem on the board as a whole, and instead of stating his argument dispassionately, he attacked BOTH the argument and the arguer.

You are correct in stating that DSAPOLIS did not explicitly state that "this information will be the end all." But being as knowledgeable about the subject as DSAPOLIS is, he owes a duty of care to those who are not so knowledgeable to state that this applies at a certain point in the process. This is of course assuming that DSAPOLIS' advice is not for everyone. I don't believe it is. I am at the low-end of intermediate play(boy, there's a bold claim), and i think his advice quickly loses its relevance.

By way of comparison, I was just reading Capelle's "Play Your Best Nineball" today, which is a good example of a book that warns which advice is for whom. He wrote this way, because he knew he SHOULD state explicitly that B level players should think/practice one way and C players another.

Yes, as Scott Lee pointed out, even pros go back to the fundamentals. But the pros are still trying to eschew crutches like breaking soft. It is not an ends in itself, but a means to the end, which is breaking hard with accuracy.

When someone titles a thread,"10 Bad Habits That Keep You From Running The Rack", it does sound to me like it's supposed to apply to everybody. And honestly, these guidelines do not. Because "average players" are naturally the bulk of the population, it will apply to them, but if they don't want to stay "average players," they should learn and then unlearn what they have learned.

This is what I thought immediately after reading DSAPOLIS' original post, and it's what I deciphered Mike was belligerently trying to tell everyone.

"Mike was not originally pointing things out like your quote here says,'His advice is a good rule of thumb, but you will have to ignore his good rule of thumb for better rules of thumb later on.'"

Yes, he was pointing these things out. Here's an example:

"It's okay to recommend [the center-of-the-table approach to position] as general advice to players that do not know how to go about running out a rack. But advising it in the strong terms he was is completely inappopriate for more advanced players."

And another example:
"Definately first learn control with a medium stroke before trying to progress to hitting the balls harder."

And another:
"I didn't mean that one can't use your advice to get better. What I mean is that to become a great player one is going to have to move far beyond your advice."

It is my contention that the inflammatory subject heading and first post where he whines about getting away from the board were the terrible byproducts of Mike's desire to warn about taking advice too generally. It was the style of the message overpowering the message itself.

But the catalyst that brought me into the topic was jjinfla's blatantly ridiculous post that blamed Mike for saying the opposite of what he was actually saying. I had to step in, and point out that there is no rational way that you can take "break hard with accuracy" to mean "break hard and throw accuracy out the window." That led me right into my defense of Mike, which I've been wanting to do, because if he hadn't already responded on 11/4, I would have. I wouldn't have maligned DSAPOLIS, but I would have mentioned that it is important not to take this advice to your grave, because if you want to continually improve, "middle-of-the-table" and "break-soft-and-accurate" will get you to a certain level and then leave you frustrated.

cheesemouse
11-09-2002, 06:37 AM
Tap...tap...tap... /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif Very nice...

eg8r
11-09-2002, 06:14 PM
Ludba,

It makes it hard to care what Mike said after he began with, <blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>You just made two posts on "habits" that are full of very bad advice.<hr></blockquote> After that post, Mike noticed that he was a butthead and he began pulling his tail between his legs so that he would not fall over when backtracking over it. He then moves to say "Oh well, maybe if it is for beginners then it is fine." Well, Mike never even replied to DSAPOLIS and asked who this was for. He ASSumed it was for all aspiring pros who were on the verge of being the best in the world.

There are quite a large number of posters here on the board that play the game for fun and are not aspiring to be the best player out there, only the best player they can be.

Another thing, why would an "almost" pro like Mike even look at this info. He and the rest at his level are beyond this so it does not help them and common sense would be for them to leave it alone. The people that would read it would try it out and see if it works.

For Mike to come on the board and say that the advice is very bad advice is ASinine. The advice is good advice as another professional instructor has pointed out. Take all this with a grain of salt but do not say that it is very bad advice and then say "well, it is good for beginners." I call this a hypocrite, you say it is bad, then you say it is good but conditionally.

eg8r

Rod
11-09-2002, 09:42 PM
Quote eg8r,Another thing, why would an "almost" pro like Mike even look at this info. He and the rest at his level are beyond this so it does not help them and common sense would be for them to leave it alone. The people that would read it would try it out and see if it works. snip"

I think that's a good point. I read both posts by Dsapolis and they had in general good iformation. I didn't totally agree with some parts or comments but felt overall the information was good. I didn't feel a need comment because it didn't apply to me. I believe it was intended for about 80% or more of the pool playing population. When one gives information on a forum such as this it's hard to remember all the disclaimers. It could have said, ok read this if your not an advanced player. Well what is an advanced player and to whom? In my system a 7 is advanced to a 4 but the 7 is light years from me. A 7 could learn something by reading both of his posts and many times players beyond that could too. A 7 isn't going to use the position routes as suggested, but sometimes they might be better off when they lose the c/b. You just have to read it as an individual and take the parts you need. I don't believe it's a one size fits all nor did he intend it to be such.
One thing about written material. From talking to players, giving instruction and reading about it here; I find so many that quote from books, or "their impression" of what a book said. Many times they did not interpret what the author was saying correctly and/or they take everything written like it was carved in stone. Just another player going down stream without a paddle. These players need a qualified instructor to show them the difference, one on one. Even then they might be doomed because "their perception" of what a famous author wrote can't be wrong!

Ludba
11-09-2002, 10:25 PM
"The people that would read it would try it out and see if it works."

True. And they would find that it works...for a while. Then they would plateau and not know why. That's the danger, and even if you don't believe that DSAPOLIS has the obligation to warn of this, it is good for people to question advice. The important thing is to do so respectfully, which is where mike failed.

The dilemma is exactly what you pointed out: many pool players are not interested in progressing past a certain point. I admit that this is a little alien to me. I can't empathize with not wanting to be the best at whatever you do, whether it's pool or physics or hopscotch. I can't comprehend someone wanting to improve and then deciding, "ok this is enough improvement for me," or "this is as good as I can get." It's defeatist thinking to me.

And I guess mike and I are looking out for those like us who value continuous improvement and who believe that it is possible to reach the highest levels of play. For people like us, this advice is lacking. And it's pretty difficult to see it in print and not respond.

eg8r
11-09-2002, 10:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>And I guess mike and I are looking out for those like us who value continuous improvement and who believe that it is possible to reach the highest levels of play. For people like us, this advice is lacking. And it's pretty difficult to see it in print and not respond. <hr></blockquote>You are wrong to a degree. There may be people "like" you who are not at your level just yet, and this information was helpful to them. Then once they reach a plateau, and being as concerned about their play, they will then look for more help and continue on their journey.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>The dilemma is exactly what you pointed out: many pool players are not interested in progressing past a certain point. I admit that this is a little alien to me. I can't empathize with not wanting to be the best at whatever you do, whether it's pool or physics or hopscotch. I can't comprehend someone wanting to improve and then deciding, "ok this is enough improvement for me," or "this is as good as I can get." It's defeatist thinking to me.<hr></blockquote>
I feel your post intends to make others inferior than yourself because they are not out trying to be the best player in the world. I personally am not going to try to be the best player in the world, instead I will strive to play the best of my ability. To ask for any more is insane.

eg8r

Ludba
11-10-2002, 12:21 AM
"A man's reach should exceed his grasp, for otherwise what's a heaven for?" William Blake

bluewolf
11-10-2002, 04:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Ludba:</font><hr> The dilemma is exactly what you pointed out: many pool players are not interested in progressing past a certain point. I admit that this is a little alien to me. I can't empathize with not wanting to be the best at whatever you do, whether it's pool or physics or hopscotch. I can't comprehend someone wanting to improve and then deciding, "ok this is enough improvement for me," or "this is as good as I can get." It's defeatist thinking to me.

<hr></blockquote>

While i want to be the best I can be too, I have met many players in apa from 2-7, who arent willing to due the hard work to improve. pool is a fun thing that they do once a week. and these are the people who will go to work and tell their coworkers how fun it is and might even get a couple of other people to play league.

while i am different from them,they are spreading the word that pool league play is fun and cleancut and not 'shady'.

Somehow I think that isnt all bad.

bw

jjinfla
11-10-2002, 06:54 AM
People who categorically state that "you" should strive to be the best you can be make me laugh. Those of you who take this stand I ask if you have a job are you striving to become the best at that job? do you want to own the company? At home are you striving to be the best father or husband? Is your home the best in the community? Are you the best at helping out at your Church? Ah hell, you guys just hang at the pool hall, complaining all the time, looking for some sucker to take his money. You only want to be the best at pool. And probably don't have a pot to piss in. There is one very important point all instructors must grasp. You can never teach a student who is not ready or willing to learn. And only the good intructors are able to accomplish this. Jake

PQQLK9
11-10-2002, 09:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: jjinfla:</font><hr> People who categorically state that "you" should strive to be the best you can be make me laugh. Those of you who take this stand I ask if you have a job are you striving to become the best at that job? do you want to own the company? At home are you striving to be the best father or husband? Is your home the best in the community? Are you the best at helping out at your Church? Ah hell, you guys just hang at the pool hall, complaining all the time, looking for some sucker to take his money. You only want to be the best at pool. And probably don't have a pot to piss in. There is one very important point all instructors must grasp. You can never teach a student who is not ready or willing to learn. And only the good intructors are able to accomplish this. Jake <hr></blockquote>

AMEN!

WaltVA
11-10-2002, 11:15 AM
Ludba - Been a long time since English Lit class, but the quote, "Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?" is actually Robert Browning, not William Blake.

Walt in VA

11-10-2002, 01:46 PM
I would not define any of you top ten as habits. They are just some of what it takes to play the game well. As an example:
--------------
"Bad Habit #7: Limited shotmaking ability.

Shotmaking is essential. I don't care how good of a
position expert you are, sooner or later you will be faced
with a tester and have to come through with your best
shotmaking. We would all like to be straight in on every
shot, but that is not always the case, therefore we must
prepare ourselves by knowing how to make the tough rail
biters and bank shots. This could either be your Waterloo
or your ace in the hole."
-------------------------
I doubt if you go to a player and tell them, If they would just stop missing they would play better, will help them, I think they know that. No big revelations here, just common sense but worth pointing out.

11-10-2002, 02:01 PM
My guess is you start preparing to miss several shots earlier. Everyone miss when the shots keep getting tougher. They play from crises to crisis and are constantly trying to fix problems of their own creation till it becomes critical and they miss. You need to keep the pressure off with better position play. Even a champion can't keep making hard shots. Position play is two fold. One you have easier shots. And two with easier shots it is easier to play good position. Position is everything, and needs to be worked on constantly. To answer your question, you are not getting fool proof position on the balls you are missing. You need to work on it.

11-10-2002, 02:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Mike:</font><hr> This is why I have been trying (unsuccessfully, obviously) to get away from this place. You just made two posts on "habits" that are full of very bad advice. But I can't step in and correct you, because people will complain. Or they will sit and argue and argue, despite the fact that they have only been playing Pool for a matter of months.

So what's the point? <hr></blockquote>


Mike your full of [censored]! Now beat it!

BTW, I like reading posts like DSAPOLIS' that's what make this a CCB!

11-10-2002, 02:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Mike:</font><hr> When advice like this is given, tell people that this is advice applicable to beginning and intermediate players. Tell them that this advice is just a step in their long journey towards becoming a great player. Tell them that this is not the way that world-class players play the game. But tell them that they first have to walk before they run, and that for now, following this advice will help beginning and intermediate players.

A proper frame of reference is all I ask. <hr></blockquote>


Mike your full of [censored]! Now beat it!

11-10-2002, 02:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Mike:</font><hr> It was not bad advice for beginners and intermediate players. It was bad advice in the way it was framed, as "the way" to play the game for everyone of every skill level.

I think the people on this board looking for help deserve good advice. They need to know the difference between "this is good advice for now" and "this is how top-pro's play the game." I would think that at least some of the players coming here looking for help have aspirations of becoming really great players. They deserve a proper frame of reference when advice is given.

I feel qualified because of the company I keep. I seriously doubt most posters here have access to some of the best players in the world like I do. When I want to know how to play a shot, I don't come here and look at posts that say "minimum rails possible, try to get to center of table". I'll go and ask a pro player and say "Hey, how would you play this shot?" When I have well-known pro's telling me one way, and someone I've never heard of on a BBS telling me another way...who would you listen to?

I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic or not with the "name dropping" comment. But if you weren't being sarcastic, thanks for noticing. Who my friends are is my business. <hr></blockquote>


You area NOTHING but a pOLL expert wannabe, MIKE! Now beat it! UR full of [censored]!

11-10-2002, 02:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Mike:</font><hr> It was not bad advice for beginners and intermediate players. It was bad advice in the way it was framed, as "the way" to play the game for everyone of every skill level.

I think the people on this board looking for help deserve good advice. They need to know the difference between "this is good advice for now" and "this is how top-pro's play the game." I would think that at least some of the players coming here looking for help have aspirations of becoming really great players. They deserve a proper frame of reference when advice is given.

I feel qualified because of the company I keep. I seriously doubt most posters here have access to some of the best players in the world like I do. When I want to know how to play a shot, I don't come here and look at posts that say "minimum rails possible, try to get to center of table". I'll go and ask a pro player and say "Hey, how would you play this shot?" When I have well-known pro's telling me one way, and someone I've never heard of on a BBS telling me another way...who would you listen to?

I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic or not with the "name dropping" comment. But if you weren't being sarcastic, thanks for noticing. Who my friends are is my business. <hr></blockquote>


You area NOTHING but a POOL EXPERT WANNABE, MIKE! Now beat it! UR full of [censored]!

Ludba
11-10-2002, 04:36 PM
"...if you have a job are you striving to become the best at that job?"

Absolutely.

"do you want to own the company?"

It's my long-term goal.

"At home are you striving to be the best father or husband?"

I'm neither a father or a husband, but if I were, most definitely.

"Is your home the best in the community?"

That's not really a goal of mine. I wonder if it should be....

"Are you the best at helping out at your Church?"

I don't go to Church, but I helped in the past when I did go to Church, before I made the conscious decision not to go. I wouldn't say I was the best, but then that was long ago, before I made the conscious decision to strive to be the best at whatever I do.

"Ah hell, you guys just hang at the pool hall, complaining all the time, looking for some sucker to take his money."

I do more than hang out at the pool hall, I don't complain all the time, I've gambled on pool maybe twice, and I would never hustle some poor sucker.

"People who categorically state that "you" should strive to be the best you can be make me laugh."

I wasn't saying that you should strive to be the best. Browning's quote (however badly I butchered it) was saying that. I doubt Robert Browning fits into your stereotype. I agree with him that "I" should reach past what I know I can attain. My point was that I don't understand not wanting the most out of everything. I can understand wanting it and falling short, but I don't understand settling for what you can get.

It's not insane to want to be the best. It is unreasonable. I'll try to sidestep my knack for misquoting and just paraphrase Stephen Covey (the author of "Seven Habits of Highly Effective People"): nobody ever did anything great by making "reasonable" demands on themselves.

It is unreasonable to want to be a professional pool player. How many times do you think Jeanette Lee heard this argument? It is even more unreasonable for me to want to go pro AND become the owner of my company. But I still want it and work to attain it.

The problem is that I tell people this, and the reaction is,"What? Do you think you're better than us?" No. I don't understand why you have made the choice to accept second or third or fourth best. The hard part for me is that I am in the minority view. But being in the majority view doesn't mean you're right; it just means most people agree with you.

Ludba
11-10-2002, 04:49 PM
"while i am different from them,they are spreading the word that pool league play is fun and cleancut and not 'shady'. Somehow I think that isnt all bad."

I agree that it is not all bad. I'm conflicted. I want more people to play pool, but I also want them to strive to be the best. They are opposing values, and I have no solution to the problem.

I'd like to reiterate that I DO want people to strive to be the best. But the reason is not that I believe I am superior to them. The reason I want people to be the best is that then we would have that desire in common. It's difficult to have unreasonable expectations of myself, because it separates me from the majority view. It's lonely.

eg8r
11-10-2002, 05:16 PM
You sound ambitious, yes. Insane, probably yes.

I don't think you can be giving your job 100% when your mind is giving pool 100%. I am not wishing anything bad on you, I really hope you meet all these goals, I am just trying to put things in perspective. If I was trying to be the best player in pool, I would feel like quitting the job and going all out, playing the 10 or 12 hours people are always talking about, and putting in the time. If the time is being put into pool and you have a full time job, then you are neglecting the opportunity at a good nights sleep. This might go on for awhile but soon it will affect the real job and the pool game.

eg8r &lt;~~~Safely balance my pool practice/game and my real job

eg8r
11-10-2002, 05:20 PM
You might need to quit copying down cute quotes and get to the pool hall. You are depriving your time at practice to be the best.

eg8r &lt;~~~Just giving you a hard time, not disagreeing with the last post (the quote)

jjinfla
11-10-2002, 05:36 PM
Lubda, if what you say is entirely true, and I have no reason to doubt you, then you truly are a cut above the rest. Everyone dreams of being the best at something, but when it comes time to put in the hard work and study most people fall far short. Mediocrity seems to prevail, not only in the world of pool, but in the world in general. But for those of you who do want nothing but the best for yourselves don't condemn the rest of us for not wanting the same goals. For me pool is just a form of relaxation. Sure, I put in a hell of a lot of time in practice the past four years, and twice as much in studying the game and watching the pros compete, but I know that I will never attain their level of greatness. And you know what? That is perfectly okay with me. If it troubles you, then I pity you. Because there sure are a lot more serious things in life to worry about. And for me lately, all the little things in pool just seemed to fall in place and the game seems so much easier. Jake~~~knows who came in 3rd in the US Open but is having trouble remembering who came in 1st and 2nd. So, maybe being a world beater in pool is not really such a loftly goal to achieve. Other than pleasing yourself, what good is it? And I am sure you know there are a lot easier ways to please yourself.

eg8r
11-10-2002, 05:44 PM
Jake,
I believe first was eg8r and second was rackmup. oops that was last night, in my mind it was the Open.

eg8r

DSAPOLIS
11-18-2002, 02:54 PM
Sid
I have an article entitled "The Art of the Choke". I will post it to this board later on.