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bigbro6060
11-09-2002, 09:00 PM
my technique for draw is pretty good, i never miscue and can get more than enough backspin, i can draw the ball the whole length of the table

Now i'm working on controlling the draw more, moving the cueball back exactly how far i want it to.

Just a question about when you want only moderate or quite small amounts of draw

Do you

a) control the amount of spin more with tip placement ?

or

b) control the amount of spin with cue speed having the same tip placement for all draw shots ?

or i guess a combination of both

Tom_In_Cincy
11-09-2002, 09:21 PM
Small Draw shots.. I use less speed and more cue tip placement. But that doesn't mean that's the only way to play the draw.. the same can be done by same speed with less cue tip. Its always nice to have an option..

Practice with the different speeds and same cue tip placement on the cue ball..

Practice with the same speed and different cue tip placement on the cue ball.

You should be able to do both...

Rod
11-09-2002, 11:54 PM
big, There is a time and place for both. For most draw shots I use near max offset, using speed of stroke to control distance. When I need a small amount of draw many times I'll use less bridge length. By doing it this way my back hand moves forward on the wrap and it controls length of stroke. I feel much more in control doing it this way. I'm not a fan of having a long bridge to draw the c/b a short distance especially when the o/b is near. I've seen to many of those long strokes quit or decelerate because the player was afraid he might draw it to much. I've seen countless miscues for the same reason. This is because the back hand raises in an attempt to slow the cue down and the tip goes under the c/b.

Use of less tip offset comes in handy. One example is you need a med firm stroke to draw the c/b say 4 feet. If you used max offset and less speed the c/b will hit a ball comming back because it reacts much quicker. With less offset it doesn't react as soon and misses the intervening ball. It's a stun type of draw. Yes one could say just cheat the pocket, well we all know what happens when the pocket isn't big enough! /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif The big problem I see, is if you shoot firm with less offset you need to hit the c/b exactly where you intend to. Say you need 1 tip of english but you hit with 1/2 or 1 1/2. That is a huge difference and neither one gets you position.
My way isn't the highway, just giving you some ideas.

11-10-2002, 02:29 PM
Stretch here. Tip placement and stoke speed give you all the tools you need for any situation so it's not an either or thing. If it's strictly "distance of draw" consistancy your after it's hard to beat this drill for teaching you.

Get a bunch of balls handy and set one up close to the long rail 1 diamond from the corner pocket. Place the cue ball 1 diamond away for a straight in shot. Draw the cue ball back 1 diamond. When you can do this cosistantly, draw it back 2 diamonds, then 3 then 4 etc. Only when you are competent with 1 foot draws begin all over with the cue ball 2 diamonds away (a little tuffer). When you can control the cue ball to any length of the table from 4 and 5 diamonds away you will already have answered your question. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Advanced drawing techniques are strictly situation oriented and they include bending a cue ball back, or the snatch-back draw which reacts very quickly. These shots are very difficult to control so they are not a good choice for pinpoint acuracy but rather for playing into a zone and or avoiding obsticles or breaking clusters. St

Chris Cass
11-10-2002, 03:38 PM
Hi Bro,

I agree with both Tom and Rod on this one. I think, it's the amount of follow through and the speed of the hit that gives you the control of distance. The table conditions also affect the amount of speed you need. This changes when different cloths and room conditions come into play.

The true test is in a match. It also means your ability to get your table speed down quickly. Tip placement is imprtant but I never use that as a site. I automatically do this.

Regards,

C.C.~~for what it's worth....

eg8r
11-10-2002, 06:00 PM
I think both is proper, but I change speed for the amount of draw. I am not as accurate as I could be when hitting the cue ball, so tip placement has not worked for me yet. I just aim real low and hit it soft or hard.

eg8r

Fred Agnir
11-11-2002, 08:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: bigbro6060:</font><hr> my technique for draw is pretty good, i never miscue and can get more than enough backspin, i can draw the ball the whole length of the table

Now i'm working on controlling the draw more, moving the cueball back exactly how far i want it to. <hr></blockquote>
I think this is a good self-observation about the difference between "able to draw" vs. "able to draw well."

There's a guy in my area that can draw very well, and very far. Whenever he has the option of an exaggerated unnecessary super-deep draw vs. going forward a few rails, he opts to flex for the Mike Massey-ish super-deep draw. It's hilarious (and disturbing) how many league players still get impressed by this nonsense.

Fred

bluewolf
11-11-2002, 08:41 AM
From my recollections: Scott taught us bottom english (2 tips) with using stroke speed to control the distance. Randy was teaching us draw with the tangent line for position. his instructor who was working with me focused primarily on medium(or stroke speed) speed with one tip low,2,3 etc.

it seemed like both of these methods worked on short shots. I havent tried these on long shots but feel that I would have to hit the cb at medium speed to get it up the table. Both also taught us stop shots.

Laura

Ralph S.
11-11-2002, 09:25 AM
Tom, Rod and Chris are telling you the correct way even though they vary slightly. I prefer the same method as Chris though. Length of follow thru on the stroke affects the amount of draw greatly.
Ralph S.

11-11-2002, 10:22 AM

Wally_in_Cincy
11-11-2002, 11:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: whitewolf:</font><hr> Scott Lee turned me on to using 2 tips bottom all of the time. At first I was shocked to hear this as none of the books I have read have emphasized this. Scott likes the "KISS" theory and I have adopted this method for drawing shots: 2 tips low every shot (or for most of the shots depending upon the situation as others have pointed out).

I have been practicing a draw drill that Scott showed me for about 2 months now, and I am drawing the ball with more consistencey than I ever have (especially the mid-range shots) . It is all in the stroke speed. Personally, I now believe this is the best way. Last week I drew the cue straight back 5 feet from 4 feet away like it had a string on it. Everyone was amazed except me because I have been "keeping it simple" and learning one technique really well rather than trying to be good on all the possibilies of drawing the ball.

Just my 2 cents worth. <hr></blockquote>

Makes sense to me. That's the way I draw. Nobody ever really showed me, it just evolved that way. Sometimes if I really need to load up I'll hit it lower and I frequently miscue /ccboard/images/icons/tongue.gif

Would it be possible to describe the drill that Scott Lee showed you?

TonyM
11-11-2002, 11:20 AM
These are good questions.

I think there are actually 3 options. You can choose to use the same tip placement on all draw shots and vary the stick speed (note: not the follow through as others have suggested, just the stick speed), or you can choose to keep a near constant stick speed and vary the tip placement, or you can do a bit of both.

This is analogous to George Fel's "Tip player versus Speed player" argument.

Some players like to use a limited number of places to strike the cue ball, and get position through varying the stick speed (speed players) while others prefer to use a near constant stick speed on most shots, but vary the tip position only for position (tip players).

Snooker players tend to be speed players. Most of the Philipino pool players, on the other hand, tend to be tip players.

I'm not firmly in either camp. I'll use the technique that I think is most appropriate depending on the situation.

For draw, if I want to draw it a reasonable distance, then I tend to use near maximum offset, and adjust my speed accordingly. But if I want to draw the ball back a short distance, with control, then I will hit the ball a bit higher, and still maintain a decent stick speed. This way, the cue ball comes back slowly, and under control.

The drawback to using the same tip position (2 tips low for example) and just varying the speed, is that the amount of draw is very sensitive to the initial stick speed, and the cloth friction. If you use a slight bit less speed than you intended, you can end up with just a stop shot (as the back spin brakes the ball on the way to the object ball). And if you add just a bit more speed than you intended, you can end up drawing the ball way past your intended target.

To draw a ball back a specific distance, requires that the cue ball has just the right amount of spin present at the moment of impact. How you get it there doesn't matter.

But how you chose to get it there can affect your consistency.

This question is similar to the "soft follow with maximum tip offset" or "stun run through" debate.

Both methods can acheive the same cue ball position, but using stun run through is a better technique imo because it allows you to stroke the ball with authority, avoiding table rolls and other pitfalls.

Tony