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bigbro6060
11-10-2002, 05:15 PM
English (sidespin) is transferred from the cueball to the object ball !

You just need to test for yourself

Grab 2 striped object balls. using your cue, hit one at the other with a centre hit, see what happens. Then again using your cue, hit one at the other with extreme english and you notice that the object ball doesn't spin any different!

so why do some people including many pros still think that english is transferred to the object ball ?

many books state this

am i missing something ?

eg8r
11-10-2002, 05:40 PM
Yes I think you are. I am no pro, but I believe the english is transferred but in the opposite direction (if your cueball has right, then the ob has left). My example will not include side spin but instead top spin and bottom spin. Example, there are two balls lined up straight at the side pocket about an inch from each other. The cue ball is in line with them. If you hit draw on the cue ball, then the first ob contacted will have follow and follow into the second ball (which will fall in) and move to its spot, giving you a shot on that ball in the same pocket. (set the same two balls back on the table)If you hit follow on the cue ball then the cue will roll forward, contacting the first ob giving it draw. When the ob hits the second ball (second ball falling into pocket) it will draw back into the cue ball (if the cueball is still rolling forward).

If this example does not make sense, then line up an object ball on the rail and the cue ball on the rail and try to pocket the ob using any spin to the side. It is quite difficult, since the object ball will want to bounce off the rail.

eg8r

griffith_d
11-10-2002, 06:22 PM
Obviously, you are mistaken.

Griff

bigbro6060
11-10-2002, 06:25 PM
My comment was meant specifically for the transfer of English to the object ball, not draw or follow which i haven't really investigated

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: eg8r:</font><hr> Yes I think you are. I am no pro, but I believe the english is transferred but in the opposite direction (if your cueball has right, then the ob has left). My example will not include side spin but instead top spin and bottom spin. Example, there are two balls lined up straight at the side pocket about an inch from each other. The cue ball is in line with them. If you hit draw on the cue ball, then the first ob contacted will have follow and follow into the second ball (which will fall in) and move to its spot, giving you a shot on that ball in the same pocket. (set the same two balls back on the table)If you hit follow on the cue ball then the cue will roll forward, contacting the first ob giving it draw. When the ob hits the second ball (second ball falling into pocket) it will draw back into the cue ball (if the cueball is still rolling forward).

If this example does not make sense, then line up an object ball on the rail and the cue ball on the rail and try to pocket the ob using any spin to the side. It is quite difficult, since the object ball will want to bounce off the rail.

eg8r <hr></blockquote>

eg8r
11-10-2002, 06:40 PM
Turn your head and look side ways and you tell me if that does not look amazingly like left and right now. I don't believe top and draw are any different than left and right except that top might be moving in the same direction that the cue ball is moving.

eg8r

11-10-2002, 06:58 PM
Bigbro, if you don't think one can get english on the object ball, you need to come to this town to play me some one-pocket. Gimme an address and I will send you a ticket to ride on that TrailHound bus.

11-10-2002, 07:29 PM
If you play bank pool you know that english effect the object ball.

stickman
11-10-2002, 07:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> If you play bank pool you know that english effect the object ball. <hr></blockquote>

Exactly my thought. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif Try a bank shot with english and without, and see if you still believe english isn't transfered!!!!

stickman
11-10-2002, 07:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: eg8r:</font><hr>Example, there are two balls lined up straight at the side pocket about an inch from each other. The cue ball is in line with them. If you hit draw on the cue ball, then the first ob contacted will have follow and follow into the second ball (which will fall in) and move to its spot, giving you a shot on that ball in the same pocket. eg8r <hr></blockquote>

I often use this shot to pocket both balls. It comes in handy in 8ball, when your opponents ball is blocking the pocket

SPetty
11-10-2002, 09:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: bigbro6060:</font><hr> Grab 2 striped object balls. using your cue, hit one at the other with a centre hit, see what happens. Then again using your cue, hit one at the other with extreme english and you notice that the object ball doesn't spin any different!<hr></blockquote>Has anyone else tried this experiment that bigbro6060 describes? I tried and got the same results. That is, I couldn't detect any spin on the second striped ball, even though I put a big spin on the first ball. Has anyone actually done this experiment and seen the second ball gather opposite spin from the first ball? Is there any other way to perform an experiment that will explicitly show the spin transfer on striped balls?

11-10-2002, 09:19 PM
Yes. Try banking a ball with outside English, then inside English. Hit both the same speed, and notice the difference in the way the object ball comes off the rail. You will notice that when you use outside English, the ball will bank much wider than when you use inside English.

bigbro6060
11-10-2002, 09:22 PM
are you sure that this isn't because the fact that you are using english causes the cueball to contact the object ball in a different position due to squirt, NOT because of english transfered to the object ball

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Jimmy M.:</font><hr> Yes. Try banking a ball with outside English, then inside English. Hit both the same speed, and notice the difference in the way the object ball comes off the rail. You will notice that when you use outside English, the ball will bank much wider than when you use inside English. <hr></blockquote>

NH_Steve
11-10-2002, 09:23 PM
Yes, you are missing something, just because the English transfer is apparently not enough for you to see in the spin of the object ball, it is absolutely enough to change the way the object ball reacts on a bank (as One Pocket &amp; Bank Pool players have already pointed out). In fact, in my opinion, more English is transfered by the cut of the cue ball, than the actual spin of the cue ball -- but the point is, slight side spin definitely gets transferred to the OB.

This well known One Pocket shot proves it, since the OB needs the English imparted by the CB contact to reverse back into the pocket off the end rail:
START(
%AM7D4%IC8E9%PG9E1%UK9D4%VH4D8%Wr6E3%XN5D3%YC9C8%Z s3E2%eB7a9
%f6%g7%_K0Y3%`L1K2%aL7D3
)END

NH_Steve
11-10-2002, 09:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: bigbro6060:</font><hr> are you sure that this isn't because the fact that you are using english causes the cueball to contact the object ball in a different position due to squirt, NOT because of english transfered to the object ball
<hr></blockquote> You need to get out and see better players a bit more, because you are coming across as rather naive on this -- just because your own game lacks the knowledge to take advantage of the subtle transfer of English doesn't mean it doesn't exist 'Doubting Thomas'...

bigbro6060
11-10-2002, 09:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: NH_Steve:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: bigbro6060:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; are you sure that this isn't because the fact that you are using english causes the cueball to contact the object ball in a different position due to squirt, NOT because of english transfered to the object ball
&lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt; You need to get out and see better players a bit more, because you are coming across as rather naive on this -- just because your own game lacks the knowledge to take advantage of the subtle transfer of English doesn't mean it doesn't exist 'Doubting Thomas'... <hr></blockquote>

mate i may not be a pro like you sound like you are mate, but i'm going on what my eyes tell me!

BTW Steve Davis agrees with me, he's somewhat decent at a few cue sports, i'm sure he'd kick your arse good and proper !

Tom_In_Cincy
11-10-2002, 10:14 PM
cyy@cgg.com &lt;cyy@cgg.com&gt;
aka bigbro6060

From your original post.. "am I missing something?" Yes.. I think you are.

The transfer of spin onto the ob from the cb is possible. Please set up the below shots to see how it works. I hope this helps you find out about this transfer on the table. It is possible with a good stroke and the apporpriate speed.

First shot:

START(
%AO2O6%PJ8O7%Ur8O5%VO9O4%YC9C8%Zr9O0%eC3b1%f6%g7

)END

Second Shot:

START(
%AQ5W3%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%PK0W8
%UO9W3%VL0W6%Yr2W6%ZR1W2%eA6b0%_E4[0%`a5Y5%as1W8
)END

Third shot: (notice that the angle changes.. because of the SPIN of the OB off the rail is not allowing the OB to follow the natural angle.

bottom left slower than medium speed (you might want to try this at pocket speed first.

START(
%CG1O6%DL8O2%FJ5O3%GI1O3%PO5T9%WH0D3%XL3N2%[C9Z8%\G2C5%]M4P7
%^N9S8%eB0a6
)END

TomBrooklyn
11-10-2002, 11:51 PM
I know I can put follow on the OB by putting draw on the CB. I know this because I can make the first OB of two frozen OB's lined up on a pocket follow the second OB into the pocket by putting draw on the CB. If the OB will take follow, why not side? =TB

11-11-2002, 03:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: bigbro6060:</font><hr> English (sidespin) is transferred from the cueball to the object ball !

You just need to test for yourself

Grab 2 striped object balls. using your cue, hit one at the other with a centre hit, see what happens. Then again using your cue, hit one at the other with extreme english and you notice that the object ball doesn't spin any different!

so why do some people including many pros still think that english is transferred to the object ball ?

many books state this

am i missing something ? <hr></blockquote>

Wow.. I can't believe you think english DOESN'T transfer. Yes, when balls collide, there is always some friction.. the balls are made of plastic, and since nobody uses oil or anything like it when they play, they will "rub" together.

Take a shot and line it strait up with the pocket from across the table, and hit it with a bunch of right or left, and if you aim for the center of the pocket, you'll either miss, or you'll hit the side opposite of the english you used.

like:

START(
%Ho6E7%Pp9E1%UD6Z7%Vn8F1%WH2Z8%Xn7F2%eC7a3

)END

If you use right english, the ball will go along the red line or so. Try it with center ball and it should go in the pocket. (if you hit it dead center)

Alfie
11-11-2002, 03:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: SPetty:</font><hr> Is there any other way to perform an experiment that will explicitly show the spin transfer on striped balls? <hr></blockquote> SIT and CIT are the same effect wrt spin transfer. Try this.

START(
%AO0O6%IP3O6%PJ3R3%Wr1O5%XQ4O4%YQ9M9%ZG4T1
)END

1B=GB
9B=OB
Set it up so a full hit on the 1B simulates a half ball hit on the 9B. This will result in max spin transfer.

BTW, you can use this set up to test Cincy Tom's shot.
START(
%AO0O6%IP3O6%PJ3R3%Wr1O5%XQ4O4%YQ9M9%ZG4T1%]D8D6%^r5O3
)END

Alfie
11-11-2002, 04:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> I know I can put follow on the OB by putting draw on the CB. I know this because I can make the first OB of two frozen OB's lined up on a pocket follow the second OB into the pocket by putting draw on the CB. If the OB will take follow, why not side? =TB <hr></blockquote> That is a frozen ball effect not a spin transfer effect. Try this and see what happens. Back up the first OB 1"-2" from the second. Now hit the shot with draw but fast enough so the first OB is sliding when it hits the second, i.e., before it can pick up any forward roll from the cloth. Now how far does the first OB roll forward after hitting the second?

START(%CC9C9%HE1E2%PO9P4)END

NH_Steve
11-11-2002, 06:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: bigbro6060:</font><hr>

mate i may not be a pro like you sound like you are mate, but i'm going on what my eyes tell me!

BTW Steve Davis agrees with me, he's somewhat decent at a few cue sports, i'm sure he'd kick your arse good and proper !

<hr></blockquote>Well you blokes over there just must not bank much, or you would 'see' the effect of transferred English. Also, if you are playing on a 12' snooker table with the smaller snooker balls, maybe the transferred English doesn't stay on the object ball much over the long distances. But it's a definite truth on shorter tables (I'm talking the standard 9' pool table).

11-11-2002, 07:08 AM
bigbro,

where do you live? I'll demonstrate for you.

junkie in australia

Fred Agnir
11-11-2002, 07:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: bigbro6060:</font><hr> English (sidespin) is transferred from the cueball to the object ball !<hr></blockquote>
The spin transferred to an object ball is very small. But, that very small amount is enough to influence the object ball's path off of a cushion, though it may be difficult to detect by eye. Not enough spin is transferred IMO, to somehow swerve or curve the object ball.

Your experiment suggests to me that you expect the object ball to spin with some observable rotation amount. If you line up the stripe directly forward inline with a pocket, the only effect you should notice is that the object ball's stripe should end up not straight forward. The stripe should wobble.

Fred

bluewolf
11-11-2002, 08:50 AM
I might be wrong since I am a beginner but...it seems sidespin affects the ob in an indirect way. The cb spinning away from the ob has the effect of a thinner cut and vise versa on a cb spinnin towards the ob.

No xpert here. Just taking what randy taught and putting it together with my puny observations. ww disagrees so I am hoping as I read to hear from some pros and bca instructors.

bw

bluewolf
11-11-2002, 08:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> If you play bank pool you know that english effect the object ball. <hr></blockquote>

There are a few bank shots I can make pretty well.If the cb is in line with the ob,I use english to keep the two balls from kissing, so the cb will spin away from the ob. It seems in this case,the cb is affected, not sure about the ob, since it is usually a cut too. When there are two variables involved, I cannot tell if the english affects the ob or just the cut and the angle and action off the rail.

bw

bluewolf
11-11-2002, 09:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: bigbro6060:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: NH_Steve:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: bigbro6060:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; are you sure that this isn't because the fact that you are using english causes the cueball to contact the object ball in a different position due to squirt, NOT because of english transfered to the object ball
&lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt; You need to get out and see better players a bit more, because you are coming across as rather naive on this -- just because your own game lacks the knowledge to take advantage of the subtle transfer of English doesn't mean it doesn't exist 'Doubting Thomas'... &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

mate i may not be a pro like you sound like you are mate, but i'm going on what my eyes tell me!

BTW Steve Davis agrees with me, he's somewhat decent at a few cue sports, i'm sure he'd kick your arse good and proper !

<hr></blockquote>

No need to get nasty and resort to macho stuff. bigbro sounds like he is better than me and his opinion seems to be in line with one masterbca instructor i know. i think all of this differences of opinion are interesting.

i have my own opinion as a beginner and think s petty hit it right.

bw

stickman
11-11-2002, 09:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: bigbro6060:</font><hr> are you sure that this isn't because the fact that you are using english causes the cueball to contact the object ball in a different position due to squirt, NOT because of english transfered to the object ball

<hr></blockquote>

bigbro6060, If you setup a bank shot with the cueball 6 inches from the object ball, and shoot with a medium speed stroke, and extreme english, the cueball will swerve little, if any due to not being able to get any traction in such a short distance. You still will see a considerable effect on the angle at which the object ball comes off the rail. Squirt does not cause the cueball to contact the object ball in a different position. This would be swerve. The spinning of the cueball and the friction between the cueball and object ball can result in squirt, and cause the object ball to come off the cueball at a different angle. This effect is reduced at greater cueball speeds. To rule this out, place a piece of chalk on the rail you are aiming at, and be sure that the object ball hits the rail, where you are aiming. I believe you will still see the effect of transfered english off the rail. Of course, I could be wrong. Most important is that you can shoot a shot with english and get predictable results, regardless of any cause and effect theories.

Ralph S.
11-11-2002, 09:16 AM
Here is something that might help you see this point about inducing english on the ob. How many times have you encountered two balls froze together and you want to play the combination into a corner pocket? Yet the frozen object balls are just a hair off-line to make the shot. If you use side spin or english, you can actually pocket the ball closest to the pocket. Play with it and try it. It does work. Then you will see that english is transferred to the object ball.
Ralph S.

11-11-2002, 09:19 AM
What do you care what other people believe? I have an opinion but I doubt I would share it with you.

stickman
11-11-2002, 09:23 AM
Illustrated here.

START(
%CB6[8%Dk3R8%F[4B3%GB8B6%Pl3V3%W[8Z7%Xg4C6%[g8D7%\k0Q9%eC5a7

)END

no english

START(
%CB6[8%Dk3R8%F[4B3%GB8B6%Pl3V3%Wb1Z3%Xg4C6%[g8D7%\k0Q9%eB4a4

)END

rackmup
11-11-2002, 09:37 AM
The object balls are not perfectly smooth. The surfaces of the balls have "asperities" (a rough surface not detected by the human eye.) This is what causes friction between the two balls or what is more commonly referred to as "gear effect".

These asperities cause one ball with spin applied, to cause another ball to rotate with a degree of opposite spin. The amount of spin transferred is also greatly effected by the amount of force used and applied at the point of impact to the two balls. More force, less spin as the two balls are not in contact with each other as long.

Gear effect baby...gear effect. It's that science stuff coming to the table.

11-11-2002, 09:38 AM
In the book Matchroom Snooker (I'm pretty sure that's the book I saw), Steve Davis does state that there is no transfer of side, however in the photo, he is shown demonstrating a straight-in close shot. However, he did not discuss angle shots where the spin transfer becomes more apparrent.

11-11-2002, 10:29 AM
Regardless of the exact reason, if you play as if there WERE a transfer of english, you can expect consistant results. The balls will always react as if there were a transfer of English. Steve Davis may agree with you, but there are also many players of his caliber that disagree with you.

bluewolf
11-11-2002, 11:01 AM
This discussion reminds of one of the laws of thermodynamics.

"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."

In just the way that the energy of the stroke is applied to the cb, the cb has to transfer it's energy to what it collides with.

I would postulate that, in a thin cut, a small amount of that energy is applied to the ob, with the rest being applied to the rail and or the other balls it collides with.

I would further postulate that if a person tends to hit thin, then outside english would cause the cb to spin towards ob, creating the desired effect. OTOH, if the person tends to hit too fat,then inside english will spin the cb away from the ob,creating a thinner cut.

Then there is deflection and squirt and I can figure that out with no english but am not experienced enough to figure out those with using english.

Where english fits into the above, I know not. All I know is that,with my severe hand tremors, long, straight in shots go in with english but not with a straight center ball hit.

bw

11-11-2002, 11:26 AM
Yep, and you HAVE to use draw, otherwise the object ball you're shooting into won't follow. The idea that no English is transferred is wrong. The amount of English that is transferred isn't the same amount that is applied to the cue ball, but there is some transfer. It is obvious in quite a few different shots.

Alfie
11-11-2002, 06:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph S.:</font><hr> Here is something that might help you see this point about inducing english on the ob. How many times have you encountered two balls froze together and you want to play the combination into a corner pocket? Yet the frozen object balls are just a hair off-line to make the shot. If you use side spin or english, you can actually pocket the ball closest to the pocket. Play with it and try it. It does work. Then you will see that english is transferred to the object ball. <hr /></blockquote> I believe that is an effect from throw, not spin transfer.

cueball1950
11-11-2002, 11:20 PM
as a long time 3 cushion player i would like to give my opinion. transferring english. I know that when i use extreme english on a shot. the english does not actually transfer. it does change the angle or trajectory of the object balls path. But i have never really seen the object ball spin from the extreme english i had used on the object ball.......just my opinion..........mike /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Popcorn
11-12-2002, 04:14 AM
If you freeze two object balls to each other and strike them in a straight line with draw. The first ball will move and the second ball will follow it for a ways. This does not happen with a center ball hit. If the rotation of the cue ball has no effect on the object ball, how do you explain this? Either way, the effect is there and even if I don't understand it, neither can I ignore it. I still plan to use reverse to shorten banks.

MaineEAck
11-12-2002, 04:00 PM
Try banking a ball, now tell me what you think...
Whats with the stars, how do I get some stars!
lol
I like the new format

Brent
11-12-2002, 04:36 PM
Hi. Well I might be a bit offtopic but isnt that the same thing when u hit two balls at once. U add forward spin a bit and u notice as ur object-ball follows the other object ball to the pocket. Isnt this the same thing ? or am I just a kid who need to play more and listen to guys like Tom in Cincy and Chris Cass /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif later all

Brents gonna shoot out the lights one day

Tom_In_Cincy
11-12-2002, 04:43 PM
Brent,
Hitting two balls that are separated by less than a piece of chalk's distance, straight on.. can cause a double hit.

The cue ball doesn't get out of the way of your forward stroke, and you hit it again (double hit) you can usally tell this is happening when the cue ball ends up going down table faster than the object ball.

Some players call this the PUSH shot.. but it is IMO a misnomer. And, it is funny, that in the rules it is referred to as a "Push Shot" rule.. which included using the chalk as a measuring device for the referees.

Good comment and observation Brent..

11-13-2002, 11:57 AM

Rod
11-13-2002, 12:55 PM
Ok I'll answer, not that you need this. Yes it does transfer very minute. It probably throws as much. Your never going to see the o/b spinning, er that's to say if you did the balls must be very dirty. It only takes a tiny amount to change an angle.

Patrick
11-14-2002, 10:26 PM
Spin always transfers to the object ball, except on hard shots where it doesn't grip. You can't see the spin on the object ball because on certain shots the spin has already wore off of the object ball due to friction from the cloth. For example when you use follow on the cueball, you will get draw on the object ball for a very short period of time, you only see the object ball skid on the cloth for a few cm, then it starts rolling forwards naturally.

Patrick