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bluewolf
11-12-2002, 03:36 PM
When I was playing with my 19oz stick, I never noticed any squirt. I have been playing with a 17oz stick for the last two weeks and it has noticable squirt.

How will this affect my aim or ability to pocket balls?

Thanks in advance.

bw

phil in sofla
11-12-2002, 04:25 PM
I had only begun to understand and adjust my aim for that effect with my stock shaft when I switched to using a Predator 314 shaft, and then didn't use any aiming adjustments to allow for that since that time two years ago.

I found myself having to use my break cue, an Adam, one night, and soon realized it was deflecting (squirting). Without having done it for two years, and not necessarily able to do it all that well when I was doing it, I found I had an excellent feel for exactly how much to compensate for the aim to pocket the ball.

It seemed so ridiculously easy to accomplish that I found myself overstroking so that I could use the slightly off aimline.

Mainly, evidently, the adjustments are both minor and easy to learn, so much so that some people make the automatic adjustment of aim when a shot would require it without any conscious knowledge they're doing that. How? Well, by missing and missing, and finally aiming enough thicker or thinner to make the shot, and just learning that particular shot at that speed with that amount of English.

You might want to try using 1/4 ball aim adjustment, and see how close that is to the correct amount of adjustment to pocket the ball. Once you've gotten it down, you'll have it, but that is FOR THIS STICK. If you change sticks, you'll have to possibly readjust that adjustment amount, as deflections vary.

bluewolf
11-13-2002, 04:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote phil in sofla:</font><hr> I had only begun to understand and adjust my aim for that effect with my stock shaft when I switched to using a Predator 314 shaft, and then didn't use any aiming adjustments to allow for that since that time two years ago.

It seemed so ridiculously easy to accomplish that I found myself overstroking so that I could use the slightly off aimline.

You might want to try using 1/4 ball aim adjustment, and see how close that is to the correct amount of adjustment to pocket the ball. Once you've gotten it down, you'll have it, but that is FOR THIS STICK. If you change sticks, you'll have to possibly readjust that adjustment amount, as deflections vary. <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks loads phil. I have had to adjust my aim like 1/2 to one cue tip. I thought something was wrong with my brain or eyes!!!! Gosh I know the adjustment must be easy for you guys, but I am just learning to pocket medium cut shots and easy banks, I dont need anymore variables. Well back to my 19 oz I go.LOL

bw

Rich R.
11-13-2002, 05:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> Thanks loads phil. I have had to adjust my aim like 1/2 to one cue tip. I thought something was wrong with my brain or eyes!!!! Gosh I know the adjustment must be easy for you guys, but I am just learning to pocket medium cut shots and easy banks, I dont need anymore variables. Well back to my 19 oz I go.LOL

bw <hr /></blockquote>
The adjustments are not necessarily easy or hard. Some pick them up easier than others, that is all.
Your 19 oz. stick probably has squirt also, just not as much as your 17 oz. stick. If you have been shooting with the 19 oz. for a while, you are probably making adjustmenst for the squirt and don't realize it.

jjinfla
11-13-2002, 06:49 AM
Squirt is very, very good, especially with a shot or two of vodka. Jake~~~sorry, lost my head there for a minute.

Rich R.
11-13-2002, 09:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> Squirt is very, very good, especially with a shot or two of vodka. Jake~~~sorry, lost my head there for a minute. <hr /></blockquote>
Oh, do you bring back some memories. Some good. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif Some not so good. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

stickman
11-13-2002, 09:25 AM
Since I've been able to adjust somewhat effectively for squirt, I've also learned to appreciate it. There are situations where squirt becomes another tool in the arsenal. As a rough guideline to start with, try aiming at the right edge of the pocket when using righthand english, and vise versa with lefthand english. With lots of practice, you will begin to develop a feel for the amount of adjustment required for different amounts of english, different distances, and different speeds.

Chris Cass
11-13-2002, 10:00 AM
BW,

The less you look into things like this, the better off you are. Whatever cue your using for your playing cue, stick with it. If you want to understand more about it? Just every now and then grab a house cue off the wall.

Your mind has to be focusing on making balls and learning where the cb's going. Making adjustments for cues, table cloth and rails will be automatic after awhile. Just stick with the same cue and you'll be fine. The more you look into this game. The harder it becomes. Keep it simple or relieable whatever your choice of words, is the best way. JMHO

Regards,

C.C.

TomBrooklyn
11-13-2002, 10:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> When I was playing with my 19oz stick, I never noticed any squirt. I have been playing with a 17oz stick for the last two weeks and it has noticable squirt.

How will this affect my aim or ability to pocket balls?<hr /></blockquote>It will require you to change your aim point, and make pocketing balls more difficult.

To be able to confidently observe squirt, I think one must have a very consistant stroke with the ability to actually hit the cue ball very close to the exact spot they plan on every time; and a fairly high degree of accuracy in aiming. Minus that, I imagine a person would be hard pressed to determine if they had experienced squirt or if they had just mis-hit the CB or mis-aimed the shot.

I confess to some skeptisicm that a person who can't consistantly make two balls in a row is able to observe squirt; and I wonder if it's advisable for someone at that level to even be using english except on rare occasions.
=TB=

Popcorn
11-13-2002, 10:36 AM
I think the deflection factor however important, is a little over stated by the cue builders. You certainly don't want a rubber shaft, but on a vast majority of shots there is no effect either way. It shows up some when you have to shoot hard as well as with extreme english. But in general most shafts supplied by cuemakers are very playable. There can be down side to over stiff shafts as well, in that they often play with a dead feel and in games like straight pool and one pocket. They sometimes don't have that feel, where you feel like you have the cueball on a string. It is hard to explain. Gus Szaboti made me a number of cues over the years and I never liked his shafts. They were heavy and stiff (dead). I argued with him on this and there was no talking to him about it. I just had to get someone else to make me shafts for the cues. I heard this from other players also at the time. Gus was very hard headed about how he built cues. It was a take it or leave it deal. I had to beg him to build me an ivory joint cue. He finally did after many requests.

TomBrooklyn
11-13-2002, 11:01 AM
The way you relate squirt to cue shafts is interesting and I think highlights how elusive the ability to observe, describe, and compensate for squirt can be. It is my impression that theoretically, the more flexible the shaft the less squirt there will be, and in general, the stiffer the shaft the more squirt will occur.
=TB=

phil in sofla
11-13-2002, 11:07 AM
Stickman:

I usually aim to the same side of the pocket as the English I'm using, as you advise: if using right English, I'll aim to the right side of the pocket.

However, I can do this because I don't have much deflection, if at all, and this is a compensation for possible THROW, not deflection. If you were concerned about deflection, the adjustment should be to the OTHER side of the pocket from the English applied, not the same side.

Say you're using right English as outside English to cut a ball to the left to the pocket. If there were deflection, it would move the cue ball to the LEFT of the line you've aimed down, making it possible that you'd UNDERCUT the ball. To compensate for possibly undercutting from deflection, you'd aim to the left side of the pocket as an intentional overcut.

In extreme cases, heavy English and hard hits, 1/2 table length shots, the aim line might even be to miss the pocket by a full diamond (or more, maybe two), but you have to remember that deflection is to the opposite side of the English applied.

Fred Agnir
11-13-2002, 11:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> When I was playing with my 19oz stick, I never noticed any squirt. I have been playing with a 17oz stick for the last two weeks and it has noticable squirt.

How will this affect my aim or ability to pocket balls?
<hr /></blockquote>
If you observed noticeable squirt, then I don't understand your question. How did squirt manifest itself such that you observe it as "noticeable"?

If there's a different amount of squirt with your 17oz cue, then you may have to aim differently compared to your 19oz cue. If you don't aim differently, then you may not pocket the ball.

Fred

phil in sofla
11-13-2002, 11:27 AM
You're most welcome.

To KNOW about deflection is a good thing, because it is the main reason why we miss shots (badly, or barely, rattling the ball in the jaws) when we have to, for example, use high inside English to come into the corner and out and around. If you find yourself jawing balls on those shots even with your 19 oz. stick, that's an indication that an adjustment for deflection is in order. Not that the deflection is good, but a necessary evil to get where you need to get sometimes.

Now, sometimes deflection IS good, since it allows some otherwise impossible shots to be made. For example if you are straight on an object ball that is frozen on the rail. To do that semi-trick shot of coming into the rail and spinning the object ball down the rail and into the pocket, I crank up some low inside English, aim the inside edge of the cue ball at about a quarter of the object ball (that is, aiming to hit the object ball too full to be thinning it), and rely on the semi-masse effect to first scoot the cue ball wide of the line with deflection, and then swerve back to thinly hit the object ball off a rail first hit.

Note, I do not really know how much my stroke deflects OR swerves back. I've just experimented with how full to aim, given how my stick performs and how hard my stroke is on this kind of shot. This is a pretty reliable shot for me, and although it is somewhat spectacular, took all of 5 minutes or less to get the line down.

stickman
11-13-2002, 11:36 AM
You're right, Phil, I was refering to throw. I get confused with the different terms sometimes. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Chris Cass
11-13-2002, 11:47 AM
Hi Popcorn,

Well, this is a tough one. Gus Szamboti along with most of the Master cue makers believe in what they produce to be the best playing cue possible. By the way, a Gus Szamboti shaft is worth tons now days.

My point, shaft taper is unique to every player. A lot of players change the taper they like by sanding or just normal wear. I to have a preference but I usually need to make the adjustment on my own. The shaft wood, the length of time between cuts and the treatment used, is what dictates the shafts worth. IMO

As far as an Ivory joint? This isn't uncommon among the Masters. Some are totally against changing their products performance or feel from what they consider perfect. Some cue makers do not. It took me 45 minutes long distance to have a small amount of Ivory put in my cue. They didn't believe in it at the time. Ivory joints isn't hard to understand as far as I remember Gus liked using S.S. joints.

Stiffness and pool games? Yes, the stiffness of the shaft can hurt the player that likes to juice the ball up alittle. However, a good player will make adjustments for this after awhile as I'm sure you know. I do know also that if you like the hit of Ivory in a joint, you undoubtable would prefer Implex also or wood to wood.

I know of a guy in Fla. right now that would love to have as many Gus Szamboti shafts as you can produce. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I do like your taste in cues. Whatever the feeling, you can't go wrong with a cue built buy Gus or Barry Szamboti. Both unique and simular. As I've seen some of Barry's work I can say, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. One day, I'll have a cue made for me from Barry. I hope I see that day.

Regards,

C.C.

Rod
11-13-2002, 12:23 PM
Jim,
What Phil suggested is basically correct and more important it works for him. What's difficult about forums is the fact one can't cover all the details. That is unless they describe the type of stroke, bridge length, speed, distance etc. I'd aim center pocket or even on the fat side. Phil even mentioned that he would aim fat to allow for throw. What that's not telling you is stroke,bridge length, speed and distance. It's just dam difficult to describe how we execute any given shot due to the above. Equipment can make a small difference but I wouldn't shoot it any different with my 13-1/4mm shaft compared to the predator. Yes I've played with predators, the shaft is too small. However we all play with our own equipment. Somewhere in here how we execute makes all the difference. Don't get me wrong the basic rule of thumb, squirt, applies as stated but we all make our own compensations due to our stroke, aim etc.

Rod
11-13-2002, 12:33 PM
Quote Phil, In extreme cases, heavy English and hard hits, 1/2 table length shots, the aim line might even be to miss the pocket by a full diamond (or more, maybe two), but you have to remember that deflection is to the opposite side of the English applied."

Phil,
If someone has to aim a diamond or two off to make the ball, they have real serious aiming problems or very poor fundamentals. Either that or their shaft has the stiffness of a noodle! LOL

Popcorn
11-13-2002, 12:38 PM
I still have a couple of Szamboti cues that he built for my wife and myself along with other cues I sometimes use. I wish I had all the cues I have owned over the years, Szamboti, Gina, Balabushka. I first started playing with a Rambo which I still have. That ivory joint Szamboti I had, I paid around $400. for it. Before Gus died I sold it to Mike the Russian for $500. and he probably turned it over for a quick profit. That cue I bet is worth $8000. or more now. I don't think he made many ivory joint cues. The joint was a 5/16 x 14 piloted joint by the way. It was the first I had seen like that.

phil in sofla
11-13-2002, 05:27 PM
Not really, because it's a function of how far away the shot is from you for the deflection's final effect on the line of the shot.

Similar to how far you can throw the ball when frozen to another ball with hitting the side of the first ball. The amount of the throw (measured by diamonds from the original line) depends on how far away the shot is going. The further the shot goes, the greater the distance off the original line will be. So, with a table length throw, you can get maybe a full diamond's distance off the original line, whereas if it were traveling some fraction of the table length, you couldn't get nearly that much off the original line.

Same with the deflection. Burt Kinnester has a couple of his students demonstrating some of his drills, and coming at the shot maybe 2/3rds table length away from them with high inside to come into and out and around the corner, he asked them where they had to aim in their original setup to pocket the ball with that kind of juice on the ball from that far away. Both of them said, to their amazement, that they had to overcome their feeling that it was impossible, and aim between 1 and 2 diamonds from the pocket, to allow for how much the cue ball was over off the line given the hard stroke, the heavy English, and the great distance the cue ball had to go before hitting the object ball, which magnified how far off the line the cue ball was at contact.

Alfie
11-13-2002, 05:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote phil in sofla:</font><hr> Burt Kinnester has a couple of his students demonstrating some of his drills, and coming at the shot maybe 2/3rds table length away from them with high inside to come into and out and around the corner, he asked them where they had to aim in their original setup to pocket the ball with that kind of juice on the ball from that far away. Both of them said, to their amazement, that they had to overcome their feeling that it was impossible, and aim between 1 and 2 diamonds from the pocket, to allow for how much the cue ball was over off the line given the hard stroke, the heavy English, and the great distance the cue ball had to go before hitting the object ball, which magnified how far off the line the cue ball was at contact. <hr /></blockquote> Which tape is that?

SPetty
11-13-2002, 05:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> Squirt is very, very good, especially with a shot or two of vodka. <hr /></blockquote>Mountain Dew is very very good with a couple of shots of tequila!

SPetty~~~I'm sure that surprises some of you that I would mention tequila... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

bigbro6060
11-13-2002, 05:48 PM
got a few questions for those who are experiences with English (i'm in the midst of learning it)

a) do you use Parallel English or Pivot english ?

b) Can you adapt easily to new cues ? like in a matter of minutes etc or does it take a while

bluewolf
11-13-2002, 06:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr>

To be able to confidently observe squirt, I think one must have a very consistant stroke with the ability to actually hit the cue ball very close to the exact spot they plan on every time; and a fairly high degree of accuracy in aiming. Minus that, I imagine a person would be hard pressed to determine if they had experienced squirt or if they had just mis-hit the CB or mis-aimed the shot.

I confess to some skeptisicm that a person who can't consistantly make two balls in a row is able to observe squirt; and I wonder if it's advisable for someone at that level to even be using english except on rare occasions.
=TB= <hr /></blockquote>

I said to ww 'i think this stick has more squirt' he said 'yes it does'. i picked my 19 oz back up that according to ww has almost no squirt.

I can run more than two balls in a row. sometimes it is two if i am playing safe. sometimes it is 5 or 6, but i havent achieved any consistency.

tonight i got lucky. i was driving home and was 'flying high' on adrenalin when my thoughts turned to pool. i thought to myself 'i cant wait to get to the table, i cant miss'

i broke with authority getting balls in. with my 19inch stick i made 90% of the straight and cut shots. i played two racks. then i pulled out the 18 oz and same thing two racks. getting the balls in was so easy, i though geez, this is too easy. then i missed a really hard cut shot. well i got out the worse cue we have, the one that we got with the table. i mean it is worse than a house cue, and set up the shot again. i looked at it and thought 'geez it is only an angle' and i sunk it.

well i was really confused. how can i be a two and do all that. will it ever happen again or was it a fluke. but it was fun!

bw

bluewolf
11-13-2002, 06:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>
If you observed noticeable squirt, then I don't understand your question. How did squirt manifest itself such that you observe it as "noticeable"?

If there's a different amount of squirt with your 17oz cue, then you may have to aim differently compared to your 19oz cue. If you don't aim differently, then you may not pocket the ball.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

I did not notice for aWHILE then one day i saw it hit the cb and the shaft bent a bit. this was noticable to my naked eye and ww agreed.

bw

TomBrooklyn
11-13-2002, 06:40 PM
In the Brooklyn APA, I'd venture to say by my own subjective evaluation that a person who could consistantly run two makeable balls in a row would be an SL-3. The key word there is consistantly, I'll say 80% of the time.

Someone who could consistantly run three balls in a row would be an SL-4; someone who could consistantly run four makeable balls in a row would be an SL-5; five balls, an SL-6; and six or seven balls, an SL-7. Someone who often runs eight balls in a row would be an SL-7 with a lot of those Break-and-Run patches.

An SL-2 in my league is someone who can't pocket two makeable balls in a row at least 80% of the time. I would think that type of shooter is not yet at the point where they should be spending much effort trying to use english and compensating for squirt. But what do I know? I'm not a pool instuctor.

=TB=

PQQLK9
11-13-2002, 06:57 PM
I use parallel english and can use any of several cues I have (including Predator) with no period of adjustment. Sometimes I guess ignorance can be a virtue /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Rod
11-14-2002, 12:19 AM
I understand, but these are two different issues. I realize your trying to make a comparison which is fine. That's a far out aim point but if that's where they were aiming, ok fine. I do believe where this gets confused is their reference is the cue angle, not the aim line.

Chris Cass
11-14-2002, 01:31 AM
Oh,

Suddenly I don't feel too good. Man, I won't even ask.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif,

C.C.~~wow

bluewolf
11-14-2002, 02:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> In the Brooklyn APA, I'd venture to say by my own subjective evaluation that a person who could consistantly run two makeable balls in a row would be an SL-3. The key word there is consistantly, I'll say 80% of the time.

Someone who could consistantly run three balls in a row would be an SL-4; someone who could consistantly run four makeable balls in a row would be an SL-5; five balls, an SL-6; and six or seven balls, an SL-7. Someone who often runs eight balls in a row would be an SL-7 with a lot of those Break-and-Run patches.

An SL-2 in my league is someone who can't pocket two makeable balls in a row at least 80% of the time. I would think that type of shooter is not yet at the point where they should be spending much effort trying to use english and compensating for squirt. But what do I know? I'm not a pool instuctor.

=TB=
<hr /></blockquote>

Tom,

thanks for writing. twos here are better than you describe and also the threes. id say at least 70% of the women 2-3 can run three to four balls often. I am not trying to down any league, but here there is this male chauvenist thing going on. the males get promoted before they should. i have never seen 7s who should be 5s,4s who should be 3s and so foerh. at the same time, they hold the women back. they tried to hold amanda back but finally gave up because she had been beating everybody.

of course i was losing. i believed i had a good pool player in me that wouldnt come out but rather than give up i kept putting time on the table, taking lessons etc. i believed what you guys were saying that if my stroke, aiming metnod, bridge stance etc were good, i would get good so i kept plugging away. i learned a decent stroke from scott and more from randy. randy made some comment to ray that i was very driven, never giving up.

maybe i was in some kind of zone last night but i did not even have to aim, all i had to do was stand behind the cb, look at the angle, do my stroke and pocket the balls.

i think playing negative tapes was hurting my game quite a bit two. i also have some mild physical problems that i had to compensate for. i know i am weird, but this was exciting to me like i was the master of my body. i was going to win this fight no matter what.

i think because of my determination,help here,constant coaching for ww,and scott and randy g, i have decent fundamentals 90% of the time.

so i have to believe that last night was a ray in darkness, where i was shown my capabilities. realistically i will have bad days, but this will be a positive image in my pool life ahead when those days come.

in a way i have gone nuts. i sleep for four hours dreaming about pool. then i wake up at two or three wanting to play pool all night. of course, i do what i have to go back to
sleep cuz i know what my body needs.

tonight we have league and i hope they put against somebody decent like a male four.it will be interesting to see what happens. scott said if your stroke is right and accuracy on the cb,you start pocketing balls. time will tell.

pretty excited. gotta go shoot a rack to see if the magic is still there.

bw

Fred Agnir
11-14-2002, 07:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr>
I did not notice for aWHILE then one day i saw it hit the cb and the shaft bent a bit. this was noticable to my naked eye and ww agreed.

bw <hr /></blockquote>
The shaft bending isn't a good indication of squirt. Neither is stiffness or whippiness of a shaft. I think back to the Viking days when they had a piece of metal in the ferrule area. If you retapered the shaft to be very whippy, but left the insert in there, then the squirt would still be pretty high. Conversely, take any stiff shaft, and put a metal insert in the ferrule area, and once again, you'd have a pretty squirty shaft. Stiffness is almost a non-factor.

To me, the easiest and most understandable way to find out how much squirt your cue has is to line up a short straight shot hitting it hard with english. Change your compensation amount until you can consistently get that cueball to stop and spin in place (after pocketing the ball). The aim-and-pivot method is pretty much the same test, except that the measurement is the pivot point, an easier parameter to describe.

If your 17 oz truly has more squirt, then you should find that you have to aim off the pocket more than the 19 oz cue. Or, you'd have to pivot closer to the cueball compared to the pivot point of your 19 oz.

Fred &lt;~~~ there's no such thing as "no cueball deflection"

Popcorn
11-14-2002, 09:30 AM
Pool is not the kind of game where you all of a sudden see an improvement over night. It is a slowly learned skill (years), and as you get better the small improvements will be fewer and farther apart. When you first start it is exciting because you DO see improvements quickly, maybe every time you play. But that does not last long and you soon settle into a pattern of good days and bad days but you do continue to get better even if it is hard to perceive sometimes. What I am saying is Don't live or die with your day to day performance, you will go nuts. On your good days you think you have discovered some secret, and on your bad days you'll want to quit the game. Just practice, learn and enjoy it, the improvement will come, I promise.

Chris Cass
11-14-2002, 10:05 AM
Tap, Tap, Tap.

Regards,

C.C.

bigbro6060
11-14-2002, 05:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Pool is not the kind of game where you all of a sudden see an improvement over night. It is a slowly learned skill (years), and as you get better the small improvements will be fewer and farther apart. When you first start it is exciting because you DO see improvements quickly, maybe every time you play. But that does not last long and you soon settle into a pattern of good days and bad days but you do continue to get better even if it is hard to perceive sometimes. What I am saying is Don't live or die with your day to day performance, you will go nuts. On your good days you think you have discovered some secret, and on your bad days you'll want to quit the game. Just practice, learn and enjoy it, the improvement will come, I promise. <hr /></blockquote>

well said, i totally agree with this, it's like the person losing weight weighing him/herself every hour on the day ! when really he/she should only weight him/herself once a week if that

I do think it is important to keep records so you can see how you have improved

so far the ones i keep are

a) Break stats (how many balls pocketed, whether cue ball scratch) or every single break i hit

b) Fargo once a week

c) Success % of various progressive drills

phil in sofla
11-14-2002, 07:13 PM
I think it is his most recent 4 tape or so series, titled something like 'the short game,' 'the medium game,' 'the long game,' and 'putting it together.' Not sure, I'd have to go back and review. But it features two vaguely European-accented students of his doing the demonstrations of those drills. If I'm right, most likely that would be from 'the long game' tape.

TonyM
11-14-2002, 11:35 PM
"It is my impression that theoretically, the more flexible the shaft the less squirt there will be, and in general, the stiffer the shaft the more squirt will occur."

Here we go again!

The only "theory" that I know of that states that shaft flexibility is the root cause of squirt is the one espoused by Bob Meucci.

But this theory does not explain how a small change in the shaft end mass can make a large change in the shaft's squirt angle (without changing the static stiffness at all).

Nor does it explain observations by others (myself included) that it is possible to find super stiff shafts, that have super low squirt.

As I've said before, it only takes one exception to disprove a generality. If a single very stiff, and yet low squirt shaft exists, then any theory that states that stiff = high squirt, flexible = low squirt, MUST be either wrong, or at best incomplete.

(And btw, whether or not shaft flexibility plays a part in squirt is not a matter of opinion. Rather, it is a question of what theory best fits both the available observations, and can predict further observations. Opinion, has nothing to do with it. )

I think that it would be reasonable for you to state that: "It has been my experience that stiff shafts have more squirt than flexible shafts", or "I've observed less squirt with flexible shafts than with stiff shafts", but as soon as you say "Theoretically", someone (like myself) is going to point out that a "theory" is missing here.

I think it's more of an assumption, or a conclusion than a theory. You try some flexible shafts, and some stiff shafts. The flexible shafts seem to have less squirt. But how do we know that it was the flexibility that caused it? How do we know that there is even a casual relationship at all?

I've had the oportunity to try a new experimental shaft that Predator are working on. It is made from graphite, and is at least 2 to 3 times stiffer than a conventional wooden shaft. And yet, it has 1/2 the squirt of a standard 314! (double the pivot point). If stiffness was the underlying cause of squirt, such a shaft would not even be possible. And yet it is.

And, there are 3 cushion billiard shafts. They are shorter and stiffer than a pool shaft (with a smaller tip) and yet they have low squirt.

So far, the best theory that I've heard is the one that Ron Shepard has developed, the "Conservation of Momentum" theory. It assumes that shaft stiffness is essentially irrelevant to squirt.

At least this theory conforms to the majority of the observations made to date.

You just knew I couldn't resist didn't ya?

Tony

TonyM
11-14-2002, 11:58 PM
"I did not notice for aWHILE then one day i saw it hit the cb and the shaft bent a bit. this was noticable to my naked eye and ww agreed."

Out of curiosity, do you have a clear understanding of what squirt actually is?

Form the above quote, I'd say that you might not.

You observed the shaft flexing, and assume that this indicates more squirt?

Actually, they are not really related.

Asuume for a moment that you had two cues with identical pivot points (the same amount of squirt) but one has a very flexible, whippy shaft, and the other has a very stiff unyielding shaft.

Now what happens when you hit a cue ball with some side spin, and some decent speed?

The spinning ball pushes itself away from the tip and sets into sideways motion both the tip and ball, all during the very short time of contact (about 0.001 second). If both cues have the same amount of squirt, (and we used the same stroke speed, and the same amount of tip offset, then during the contact period, both tips will move sideways the same amount, and at the same speed (actually, this would be the technical definition of "the same amount of squirt" fyi).

Now after the ball has left the tip, the tip will still continue to move sideways for a while. How far it moves is dependant on how stiff the shaft is. So the stiff shaft will only move sideways a bit after the ball is gone, and the whippy shaft will move sideways a lot. They will be vibrating at their natural frequencies (which is dependant on their mass and stiffness distributions).

So what you are actually seeing, when you see the shaft moving after the ball is struck, is just the natural vibration in the shaft due to its' inherent stiffness. You cannot tell how much squirt the shaft has by watching this.

It is possible to find stiff shafts that have low squirt, and whippy shafts that have low squirt.

Now (if you are still reading, that is! Lol!), the real way to observe the effects of squirt is by seeing how far off line you have to aim (WHILE USING SIDE SPIN) in order to make the ball.

As Jerry Breisath says: "to aim with squirt you have to aim crooked"!

What you would see if your 17 ounce cue has more squirt than your 19 ounce cue is that for shots with outside english you have to aim thinner, and for shots with inside english you have to aim thicker, in order to pocket the ball.

Maybe, you are just observing the lack of inertia in the 17 ounce cue?
What this means is that the cue is a bit harder to move in a straight line. This makes it harder to pocket balls, especially for someone with a tremor in their stroke arm!

Go with the heavier cue (imo) it will help your potting.

Any of this make sense?

Tony
-I got tired just writing it....

TonyM
11-15-2002, 12:30 AM
"I do believe where this gets confused is their reference is the cue angle, not the aim line."

I guess I look at it differently than you do then!

I think it what you define as the "aim line" depends on your method of squirt compensation.

Consider this shot (that actually came up in a match a few weeks ago):

START(
%A[7B3%B[4B0%Ct0\4%D[6B0%Es7\1%Fo9H1%Gc1Y7%Hr1L3%IE7S8%JB5C0
%K[5]0%Ls9B9%MB7\0%NB4\2%OB7\8%PQ2X8%Qi2J8%Rk4H4%Us4C8% Vp4G2
%Wn6I1%XQ9X6%Yp4D2%Zs3G9%[U0T5%\o4C3%]n3G9%^R0X5%eA2a1%_r7H6
%`q8H7%ap0H3
)END

With one of my cues my cue (pivot point of about 18") I actually have to point the cue down line "B" in order that the cue ball will travel down line "A"".

That's a pretty big offset as far as I'm concerned (almost a full ball at that distance and speed).

So which one do you consider the "aim line"? A or B?

In order to sink the ball, the cue ball must travel down line A, granted. For a center ball hit, this is the "aim line".

But what if you have to use the extreme side spin and speed like I diagrammed? You cannot "aim" the cue down that line. You have to "aim" the cue down line B.

To me, that's the new aim line.

Now for a person that uses BHE (back hand english) they would aim the ball down line A, and then pivot the stick to get the desired english.

The cue is actually pointed down line B in order to make the shot, but their reference is still line A.

So for people that use BHE, line A is always the aim line.

But if you just come into the shot with the required squirt compensation (like I did for this shot), then line B is the aim line. It's where your brain told you to point the stick in order to make the ball.

Incidentally, I've set this shot up for several players that claim that they have "no deflection" in their cues, or that they never worry about ""deflection" , that it just comes automatically, and they always, without exception overcut the shot badly when they use the extreme english diagrammed.

Their brains just will not accept the fact that the cue has to be aimed so far off the "natural line".

Here is another shot that Canadian pro Paul Thornley uses to test cues:

START(
%A[7B3%B[4B0%Ct0\4%D[6B0%Es7\1%Fs9\0%Gt0\2%HO1O4%I[2[0%JB5C0
%K[5]0%Ls9B9%MB7\0%NB4\2%OB7\8%Pg6E1%Q`9^9%Ra4^9%UD1[2%VO1O4
%YZ4Y7%ZC4I9%[P5N7%\f4E6%eA3a1%_D4J3%`K8L0%aN4O0
)END

You put a ball on the spot, and place the cue ball just off the side rail near the second diamond up from the back rail. Then use extreme inside english (as much as possible without miscuing) and try and sink the nine by spinning the cue ball off the end rail.

He often let's players that claim to not worry about squirt, or who claim that squirt is irrelevant (even pros!) try this shot. They always overcut the ball badly on their first try. The usual objection (after the miss!) goes something like: "give me a few more tries at it and I'll get it down" (to which Paul replies that you only get one shot in a game!), or "But I'd never try that shot" (and Paul wants to know why) or "I never use that much side spin" (and again Paul wonders why).

The evidence that he has built up over the years by showing this "test shot" around the circuit is that players with low squirt cues are far more likely to make the shot on the first attempt, than players with high squirt cues. And for those that miss, the players with low squirt cues will miss closer to the pocket than players with high squirt cues.

Now whether this is because it is inherently easier to aim this type of shot with a low squirt cue (Paul's view btw) or whether it is because players with low squirt cues tend to use more sidespin more often, or often try such shots (while high squirt cue users tend to avoid them and therefore are unfamiliar with them) is still open to debate as far as I'm concerned.

But it is an interesting question.

Can anyone here make this shot with their cue?

How close did you come on the first try?

Note: the nine ball over the pocket is to force you to use extreme english, and not cheat and just try and use 1 tip or something like that.

Unless you really load up the ball, you won't come anywhere near the side pocket.

I have gotten here on some tables (and with some cues):

START(
%A[7B3%B[4B0%Ct0\4%D[6B0%Es7\1%Fs9\0%Gt0\2%HO1O4%I[2[0%JB5C0
%K[5]0%Ls9B9%MB7\0%NB4\2%OB7\8%Pg6E1%Q`9^9%Ra4^9%UD1[2%VO1O4
%YT8Z5%ZC4I9%[P5N7%\f4E6%eA3a1%_D4J3%`K8L0%aN4O0
)END

Tony
-I know, I know, it's not a "game shot"....

TomBrooklyn
11-15-2002, 01:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TonyM:</font><hr> Here we go again!<hr /></blockquote>It crossed my mind Tony, that my comment might bring you out of the woodwork. lol
=TB=

Rod
11-15-2002, 05:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TonyM:</font><hr> "I do believe where this gets confused is their reference is the cue angle, not the aim line."

I guess I look at it differently than you do then!

I think it what you define as the "aim line" depends on your method of squirt compensation.

Consider this shot (that actually came up in a match a few weeks ago):

START(
%A[7B3%B[4B0%Ct0\4%D[6B0%Es7\1%Fo9H1%Gc1Y7%Hr1L3%IE7S8%JB5C0
%K[5]0%Ls9B9%MB7\0%NB4\2%OB7\8%PQ2X8%Qi2J8%Rk4H4%Us4C8% Vp4G2
%Wn6I1%XQ9X6%Yp4D2%Zs3G9%[U0T5%\o4C3%]n3G9%^R0X5%eA2a1%_r7H6
%`q8H7%ap0H3
)END

With one of my cues my cue (pivot point of about 18") I actually have to point the cue down line "B" in order that the cue ball will travel down line "A"".

That's a pretty big offset as far as I'm concerned (almost a full ball at that distance and speed).

So which one do you consider the "aim line"? A or B?

In order to sink the ball, the cue ball must travel down line A, granted. For a center ball hit, this is the "aim line".

But what if you have to use the extreme side spin and speed like I diagrammed? You cannot "aim" the cue down that line. You have to "aim" the cue down line B.

To me, that's the new aim line.
-----------------------------------------------------------

I changed your B line to illustrate. We agree Line A is the aim line correct? Since were shooting with left english the cue is offset to the left. Line B shows the offset. This is the cue line. The aim line is still path A. Now lets suppose we think with a firm shot we need to aim a little fat, now the cue line moves a little closer to your original line B. The aim line, line A moves over equal distance. Thats my new aim line, not illustrated.
--------------------------------------------------


Now for a person that uses BHE (back hand english) they would aim the ball down line A, and then pivot the stick to get the desired english.
---------------------------------------------------------
I use a side stroke on the fly, no static point and piviot. BTW the term BHE is the new techy version. BHE wasn't a term
untill someone out there not that many years decided to give it a new or technical name.

--------------------------------------------------------
The cue is actually pointed down line B in order to make the shot, but their reference is still line A.
------------------------------------------------------------

Yes this is the static version. However the cue will point that direction if a side stroke is used.

-----------------------------------------------------------
So for people that use BHE, line A is always the aim line.
----------------------------------------------------------

Pretty close, you know there is always fine adjustments.

----------------------------------------------------------
But if you just come into the shot with the required squirt compensation (like I did for this shot), then line B is the aim line. It's where your brain told you to point the stick in order to make the ball.
-----------------------------------------------------------

If you need to aim there thats ok if it works for you. Personally even if I parallel aimed along that same line, I'm going to shoot it into the end rail. BTW this shot is not new to me. Here is the change to your diagraphm to show the reference lines. START(
%A[7B3%B[4B0%Ct0\4%D[6B0%Es7\1%Fo9H1%Gc1Y7%Hr1L3%IE7S8%JB5C0
%K[5]0%Ls9B9%MB7\0%NB4\2%OB7\8%PQ6X9%Qi2J8%Rj0H8%Us4C8% Vp4G2
%Wn6I1%XR0Y1%Yp4D2%Zs3G9%[U0T5%\o4C3%]n3H8%^R0X5%eA4`4%_r7H6
%`q8H7%ap0H3
)END

----------------------------------------------------------
Incidentally, I've set this shot up for several players that claim that they have "no deflection" in their cues, or that they never worry about ""deflection" , that it just comes automatically, and they always, without exception overcut the shot badly when they use the extreme english diagrammed.

Their brains just will not accept the fact that the cue has to be aimed so far off the "natural line".
------------------------------------------------------------
Your right they don't understand, I think most players up to a given talent or higher don't know how to aim. BTW if you hit the c/b with center left as you have shown, you won't get that reaction. I use top left even at that the c/b won't make that little bend in that short span to the end rail. There is not enough time to react after contact with the o/b.


------------------------------------------------------------
Here is another shot that Canadian pro Paul Thornley uses to test cues:

START(
%A[7B3%B[4B0%Ct0\4%D[6B0%Es7\1%Fs9\0%Gt0\2%HO1O4%I[2[0%JB5C0
%K[5]0%Ls9B9%MB7\0%NB4\2%OB7\8%Pg6E1%Q`9^9%Ra4^9%UD1[2%VO1O4
%YZ4Y7%ZC4I9%[P5N7%\f4E6%eA3a1%_D4J3%`K8L0%aN4O0
)END

You put a ball on the spot, and place the cue ball just off the side rail near the second diamond up from the back rail. Then use extreme inside english (as much as possible without miscuing) and try and sink the nine by spinning the cue ball off the end rail.

He often let's players that claim to not worry about squirt, or who claim that squirt is irrelevant (even pros!) try this shot. They always overcut the ball badly on their first try. The usual objection (after the miss!) goes something like: "give me a few more tries at it and I'll get it down" (to which Paul replies that you only get one shot in a game!), or "But I'd never try that shot" (and Paul wants to know why) or "I never use that much side spin" (and again Paul wonders why).

The evidence that he has built up over the years by showing this "test shot" around the circuit is that players with low squirt cues are far more likely to make the shot on the first attempt, than players with high squirt cues. And for those that miss, the players with low squirt cues will miss closer to the pocket than players with high squirt cues.

Now whether this is because it is inherently easier to aim this type of shot with a low squirt cue (Paul's view btw) or whether it is because players with low squirt cues tend to use more sidespin more often, or often try such shots (while high squirt cue users tend to avoid them and therefore are unfamiliar with them) is still open to debate as far as I'm concerned.
-----------------------------------------------------------

To say players that use hight squirt cues dont' spin the ball would have to be a far out statmennt. You aim line as you suggested for the first shot doesn't appear a low squirt shaft is a benefit.

-------------------------------------------------------
But it is an interesting question.

Can anyone here make this shot with their cue?
-----------------------------------------------------------

I know I can.

---------------------------------------------------------
How close did you come on the first try?

Note: the nine ball over the pocket is to force you to use extreme english, and not cheat and just try and use 1 tip or something like that.

Unless you really load up the ball, you won't come anywhere near the side pocket.

I have gotten here on some tables (and with some cues):
---------------------------------------------------------

Once again center left as digramed will not send whity over that far. Nor will it make it curve as shown. Incedently I have made this with my cue many times to the diamond before the side pocket.
Describe your type of stroke for this shot. I'll tell you mine afterwards, just checking.

Here is one for drill, START(
%AO1O5%Pg5D3%US1D4%VO9N6%Y_9Z5%ZS8C6%eC2b5

)END

Just draw the c/b in the left side pocket. The didgrahm shows it going past the side the next diamond. I've put it ther several times. Drawing into the side id fairly easy. Last time I did this I made 7 out of ten shots. Varing distances to the side and in the side twice and past it once. Where is the am line there? Tony I don't get involved with piviot points, low end mass and such. I trust my stroke, cue and how the c/b reacts for me. If I thought about all this tech stuff, as maany do I'd be just as confused as most are. Obviously it works for you and some others? To what degree I don't know. Most people would be better off if they would just play and not overanalize the game. Most engineers like this stuff. Well I may have made a mistake in explanation cause I'm got tired, but I;m always hapy to discuss anything. We dont' aim the same that's for sure.



-------------------------------------------------

Tony
-I know, I know, it's not a "game shot"....
<hr /></blockquote>


Well sometimes they are, just not quite that dificult
BTW the original conversation was about aiming a full diammond or two to allow for squirt. We both know it has some form of existance. Can you honestly tell me you will aim two diamonds off just to pocket a ball. Thats what Kinnisters students were saying according to Phil. Personally I don't smoke that stuff, but I use to!! LOL

Rich R.
11-15-2002, 08:54 AM
Tony, that is the best explanation I have ever read. Thank you.

bluewolf
11-15-2002, 09:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>

The shaft bending isn't a good indication of squirt. Neither is stiffness or whippiness of a shaft. I think back to the Viking days when they had a piece of metal in the ferrule area. If you retapered the shaft to be very whippy, but left the insert in there, then the squirt would still be pretty high. Conversely, take any stiff shaft, and put a metal insert in the ferrule area, and once again, you'd have a pretty squirty shaft. Stiffness is almost a non-factor.

If your 17 oz truly has more squirt, then you should find that you have to aim off the pocket more than the 19 oz cue. Or, you'd have to pivot closer to the cueball compared to the pivot point of your 19 oz.

Fred &lt;~~~ there's no such thing as "no cueball deflection" <hr /></blockquote>

thanks fred. with the 17 oz, after I lined up the shot, I was having to hit a 1/2 to 1 tip english to make the shot. i thought something was wrong with my eyes. After going back to the 19 oz, i dont have to do that anymore.

On 95% of my shots now, I am just using centerball, with ocassional draw or top, no english. The exception is rail shots, and have better luck pocketing side pocket shots if I use a little inside english.Guess ouside would work too. Learning a little, I guess to use cuts and rails instead of english.

bw

TonyM
11-15-2002, 02:23 PM
"I changed your B line to illustrate. We agree Line A is the aim line correct?"

Well, as I said, maybe (lol!, how vague can you get eh?).
Certainly I'd agree that A is the aim line for a center ball hit. And I'd also agree that this is the cueball path line, that will pocket the ball.

But what do you call aim? Where the cue is pointed, or just the cueball path? I think you think that the aim line is always the cue ball path line, correct? There are others that would disagree.

"Since were shooting with left english the cue is offset to the left. Line B shows the offset. This is the cue line. The aim line is still path A. Now lets suppose we think with a firm shot we need to aim a little fat, now the cue line moves a little closer to your original line B. "

No, I'd say that if you were to increase the speed, the cue line will always move AWAY from the center ball aim line. Certainly for inside english it will.

"The aim line, line A moves over equal distance. Thats my new aim line, not illustrated."

This I don't understand. Why would line A ever move? To allow for throw?

"I use a side stroke on the fly, no static point and pivot" So you use a method like Bert Kinister shows on his "deflection" tape? Fred Agnir calls this "Dynamic BHE" (back hand english on the fly). So you still aim the cue along line A to begin with right? And then add the english on the final stroke? In actual fact, you are still pivoting the cue about your bridge hand, but the difference is that you do it while the cue is in motion.
"BTW the term BHE is the new techy version. BHE wasn't a term until someone out there not that many years (ago) decided to give it a new or technical name." True, the method itself might be a hundred years old! The technical explanation of why it works, and hence the new name is pretty recent.

"If you need to aim there thats ok if it works for you. Personally even if I parallel aimed along that same line, I'm going to shoot it into the end rail."

I don't understand. We agree that the stick has to be pointed along line B in order to make the ball with the side spin correct? So why wouldn't I aim there? Even if you add the english on the fly, the cue will be pointing along line B at the moment of contact. It has to be. There is no way that you can aim this shot with "parallel" english (no anglular offset) and hit the end rail, unless you use a zero squirt cue. The physics just don't allow it. If you come in with parallel aim, and hit the end rail, the only explanation is that you still swerved the cue to the left on the final stroke!

To make the shot, with the amount of squirt diagrammed, the stick MUST be pointing down line B at the moment of contact, regardless of what technique you use (aim and pivot, english on the fly, or seat of the pants aiming judgement).

"BTW if you hit the c/b with center left as you have shown, you won't get that reaction. I use top left even at that the c/b won't make that little bend in that short span to the end rail. There is not enough time to react after contact with the o/b."
You are right. I was a little loose in the details Lol! I would hit the shot above center to be sure (although not really full "follow") and you are right, it wouldn't have time to bend.

"To say players that use hight squirt cues dont' spin the ball would have to be a far out statmennt."

That wasn't actually said. Sure they do.

"You aim line as you suggested for the first shot doesn't appear a low squirt shaft is a benefit."

The aim line I suggested reflects the particular cue that I was using. It has a pivot point of about 16", so it is not a low squirt cue. A low squirt cue would have line B much closer to line A, so it would definitely be a benefit (to a player that aims by judgement that is).

"Once again center left as digramed will not send whity over that far. Nor will it make it curve as shown."

True, once again I was a little loose with the diagram. I probably hit it a bit above center as well. I adjust my tip position until I can make it.

"Incedently I have made this with my cue many times to the diamond before the side pocket."

Then you have done well! I've seen some very good players that cannot get anywhere near the side pocket. They just are not comfortable using that much english.

"Describe your type of stroke for this shot. I'll tell you mine afterwards, just checking."

I don't do anything special. I use about medium speed, or even a bit less, and a fairly loose grip. But the stroke is the same as I use on most other shots. I don't really use different strokes for different shots, except for nip shots or stuff like that. What do you do?

snip description of draw shot with english - "Where is the am line there?"

I would say like this:
START(
%AO1O5%Pg5D3%Q]8G6%RX4I3%US1D4%VO9N6%WC5[2%XN7P0%Y_9Z5%ZS8C6
%[P2N0%\f5D5%]P5N9%^f7D6%eC2b5
)END

Line A is the aim line for a center ball (no english) hit. Line B, is where the cue must be pointed in order to pocket the ball with the english diagrammed (approximately Lol!).

Again, for someone that aims by judgement (comes into the shot with the cue already at an engle to compensate for the english) then line B is the aim line. For the way that you aim with english, line A is the aim line.

You see what I'm saying?

"Tony I don't get involved with piviot points, low end mass and such. I trust my stroke, cue and how the c/b reacts for me. If I thought about all this tech stuff, as many do I'd be just as confused as most are."

What makes you think that I think about this stuff when I'm actually playing? I don't know anybody (that plays decent) that does. When I play, I aim where my brain tells me to, and fire the ball in the hole (just like you do). That doesn't mean that I cannot ponder these things away from the table. And having knowledge of WHY and HOW these things work can never be a bad thing imo. In fact, it can help me adapt to equipment very easily. I know what to expect, because I know what is happening. And yes, I trust my stroke just as much as you do.

Obviously it works for you and some others?
What works for me? As I said, on the table, I play by feel. How is anything that I've said explain how I might play?

" Most people would be better off if they would just play and not overanalize the game."
Sure, and while playing that's what I do. Who said I didn't? But what's wrong with a bit of knowledge? Sure most of the top players don't likely know much about the physics of the game, but I don't think it would hurt them if they did. It might help them to make better decisions and get less surprises.

"BTW the original conversation was about aiming a full diammond or two to allow for squirt. We both know it has some form of existance. Can you honestly tell me you will aim two diamonds off just to pocket a ball. "

I was wondering what he meant as well. Again, it depends on the definition of aim. I've never seen a standard cue, that required any more than a ball or two max, of aiming deviation when using max english, distance and speed. And by that I'm talking about the difference between the cue aim line, and the cue ball path aim line.

But if he is talking about the object ball theoretical path line, then maybe the two diamonds makes sense. Imagine the difference is object ball path between my first shot line A and B. Assume that the cueball actually travelled down both aim lines. If the object ball was farther from the rail, the final contact with the rail (or pocket) between the two aim lines might be 1 or 2 diamonds in width.

Maybe this is what they meant?

But that's certainly not how I'd look at it.

Tony
-technical feel player.....Lol!

Rod
11-15-2002, 05:14 PM
But what do you call aim? Where the cue is pointed, or just the cueball path? I think you think that the aim line is always the cue ball path line, correct? There are others that would disagree."

The cue ball path line, it's what hits the o/b, no? I'm sure there are others would not agree. If we all agreed on technique what would we have to talk about? I'll admit the shaft is the initial guide but it's not the end all of my aiming.


No, I'd say that if you were to increase the speed, the cue line will always move AWAY from the center ball aim line. Certainly for inside english it will.

I think we said the same, maybe you didn't understand, or I wasn't clear enough.

---------------------------------------------------------
"The aim line, line A moves over equal distance. Thats my new aim line, not illustrated."
-----------------------------------------------------------
This I don't understand. Why would line A ever move? To allow for throw?

When I mentioned hitting it a little fat was to allow for squirt. What I'm saying is the original A line center english would move over a touch to allow for such. So the A and B lines would both shift to the left a small amount. I'm talking about a small adjustment when hit with force. I do aim a little different when a ball is hit firm with a ton of spin.


So you use a method like Bert Kinister shows on his "deflection" tape? "

I have no clue what he does, I've (never) watched an instructional video. My guess as Fred explains it is the same.


I don't understand. We agree that the stick has to be pointed along line B in order to make the ball with the side spin correct? So why wouldn't I aim there? Even if you add the english on the fly, the cue will be pointing along line B at the moment of contact. It has to be. There is no way that you can aim this shot with "parallel" english (no anglular offset) and hit the end rail, unless you use a zero squirt cue.


No I said it moves closer to line B, not to it. That example is parallel. I'll tell you what, I'll screen capture that shot exactly and shoot it a few times with parallel aim. I won't use BHE. I aim parallel on a number of shots that are a bit touchy, I won't explain that here. Then I'll report back in with my findings. I'll be the first one to admit what really happened. You are correct about the cue going to line B with BHE.


I don't do anything special. I use about medium speed, or even a bit less, and a fairly loose grip. But the stroke is the same as I use on most other shots. I don't really use different strokes for different shots, except for nip shots or stuff like that. What do you do?


Medium slow with a ton of spin, BTW I use low left, not center left. The cue ball penetrates the o/b much better when it turns over closer the o/b. Think about that, it does work.

Again, for someone that aims by judgement (comes into the shot with the cue already at an engle to compensate for the english) then line B is the aim line. For the way that you aim with english, line A is the aim line.


I aim at line A, appx LOL. We might be splitting hairs but, with the c/b that close to the rail the initial squirt is cancelled by the swerve so I do aim a little fat. It might be there or inbetween for anyone shooting with a jacked up cue. I play by feel, so when it looks good according to my stroke and what to expect, I shoot. This shot can be drawn into the opposite side with the c/b a couple of inches off the rail. Neither one are shot very hard, to much speed and the c/b won't react. It has just enough speed to make it to the last rail.

What makes you think that I think about this stuff when I'm actually playing?

Sorry my fault I should not have counted you in on that one. I do know people that this stuff is active in their mind. They told me so, after missing a shot or whatever. Sorry to put you all in one basket. LOL You are right once again if someone really likes to study the subject it's their choice. Actually I know a lot more about physics of the game than I'll ever admit to. I don't use the terms or mathematics but in common language in person I can communicate. My use of that here is limited, I don't like to type long detailed messages. It is my personal belief this game has everything to do with physics. If it didn't we wouldn't be talking about squirt, aim lines, effects of throw, c/b reaction etc. Ok I've use my allotted time and I'll let you know what happens. I might even bring up a new shot within this topic.

pass
11-17-2002, 10:18 AM
okay, since we're talking about squirt here I went to the table yesterday to see how much squirt my cue has.

Shooting at an OB touching the center of the end rail with the CB on the head spot on an 8 foot table with medium speed cloth (faster than the usual bar table)using heavy english, I found that I needed to aim a little over a full ball to the side of the OB to compensate for the squirt. In other words, with heavy left english,if I imagined a 'ghost ball' touching the ball I was shooting at, I needed to aim just to the left of center of the ghost ball in order to hit the center of the object ball.

My question is: does that seem like a lot, a little, or just about average?

I noticed when playing on a bar table last night, that the amount of squirt seemed to be less. Do you guys think that is because of the heavier, slower cloth?

Thanks!

bluewolf
11-17-2002, 10:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr>
I did not notice for aWHILE then one day i saw it hit the cb and the shaft bent a bit. this was noticable to my naked eye and ww agreed.

bw <hr /></blockquote>
The shaft bending isn't a good indication of squirt. Neither is stiffness or whippiness of a shaft. I think back to the Viking days when they had a piece of metal in the ferrule area. If you retapered the shaft to be very whippy, but left the insert in there, then the squirt would still be pretty high. Conversely, take any stiff shaft, and put a metal insert in the ferrule area, and once again, you'd have a pretty squirty shaft. Stiffness is almost a non-factor.

To me, the easiest and most understandable way to find out how much squirt your cue has is to line up a short straight shot hitting it hard with english. Change your compensation amount until you can consistently get that cueball to stop and spin in place (after pocketing the ball). The aim-and-pivot method is pretty much the same test, except that the measurement is the pivot point, an easier parameter to describe.

If your 17 oz truly has more squirt, then you should find that you have to aim off the pocket more than the 19 oz cue. Or, you'd have to pivot closer to the cueball compared to the pivot point of your 19 oz.

Fred &lt;~~~ there's no such thing as "no cueball deflection" <hr /></blockquote>

fred,

from reading this,if you are correct, then i dont know what squirt is and neither does anybody around me or at least they cant xplain it to me. brother. the more i read, the less i know.

blu

TonyM
11-17-2002, 11:59 AM
"My question is: does that seem like a lot, a little, or just about average?"

Hard to say, try the aim and pivot test outlined in one of Fred's other posts and let us know the pivot point length of your cue. You can also find an explanation of this on the rsb faq.

"I noticed when playing on a bar table last night, that the amount of squirt seemed to be less. Do you guys think that is because of the heavier, slower cloth?"

Squirt itself, doesn't depend on cloth friction at all. But swerve (the masse effect that's present on most shots with english) does. So on slow, napped cloth, you get the same amount of squirt, but more swerve. Since swerve is in the opposite direction as squirt, the result is that your aim point moves closer to the center ball position. This "looks" like less squirt.

Another possibility is that the bar box had a heavier cue ball. A basic rule of themb is that a heavier cue ball produces less squirt, while a lighter cue ball produces more squirt (assuming the same cue of course).

You can really see this effect by hitting some shots with heavy sidespin using your pool cue, and trying a standard pool ball, a snooker ball, and a carom ball.

Tony

TonyM
11-17-2002, 12:16 PM
Here is a simple explanation Bluewolf:

If you strike a cue ball in the center with your cue, the cue ball travels directly forward, parallel to the line of the cue. Got that picture?

Now strike the same cue ball with heavy sidespin. The cue ball no longer travels forward directly parallel to the cue line. It leaves the tip at an ANGLE, away from the direction of the english applied. So, if you strike the ball with right hand sidespin, then the cue ball immediately heads to the left of the cue line at an angle.

This angle away from the cue line is what is called squirt.

The cue ball also curves back towards the direction of applied english on many shots. This slight curve (like a mild form of masse) is called swerve.

The bend in the shaft is just an indication of how stiff or flexible the shaft really is, and is not a good prediction of how much, or how little squirt your cue produces.

Try this simple shot to see the effect of squirt:

START(
%Pg5O6%QA8N8%RA6M0%Wi3P2%Xr4P1%YD2M9%Zf7O7%[D5O7%\f6O7%eA4a4

)END

Put a piece of chalk (edge on) on the end rail at point "A". Line up the shot with center ball and aim it at "A". The cue ball should travel straight down the table and strike the rail at "A", and then come straight back down the table and hit your tip (in a perfect world, of course!).

Now set up the same shot, only this time, slide your cue and bridge hand over sideways (and keep the cue line parallel to the original line) and add as much left hand sidespin as you can. Now, look at the cueball last, and stroke the cue straight ahead with a firm stroke.

Note that the cueball will not hit "A", but will squirt over and strike the rail somewhere near "B". How far away from "A" the ball hits is a measure of how much squirt your cue has.

Tony
-so now you know...

bluewolf
11-17-2002, 02:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TonyM:</font><hr> Here is a simple explanation Bluewolf:

If you strike a cue ball in the center with your cue, the cue ball travels directly forward, parallel to the line of the cue. Got that picture?

Now strike the same cue ball with heavy sidespin. The cue ball no longer travels forward directly parallel to the cue line. It leaves the tip at an ANGLE, away from the direction of the english applied. So, if you strike the ball with right hand sidespin, then the cue ball immediately heads to the left of the cue line at an angle.

This angle away from the cue line is what is called squirt.

The cue ball also curves back towards the direction of applied english on many shots. This slight curve (like a mild form of masse) is called swerve.

<hr /></blockquote>now i feel really stupid. i thought putting english on did that to the cb because of the spin.the swerve makes sense. i hit about a tip or 1/2 tip off the aim line, which my brain tells me to do. i thought i was compensating for deflection.

are you saying that english causes squirt and if i dont use english i dont have sqirt...help i m drowning in a sea of ignorance...&lt;G&gt;

blu

TonyM
11-18-2002, 12:51 AM
"now i feel really stupid. i thought putting english on did that to the cb because of the spin."

Never feel that you are being stupid when you are asking questions Bluewolf! As my Father has always said: "there is a difference between ignorance and stupidity", "Ignorance can be fixed"

Yes, the sidespin causes both squirt, AND swerve. No sidespin, no squirt, and no swerve. That's why it is easier to aim a shot without any sidespin. The cueball travels in a straight line.

"i hit about a tip or 1/2 tip off the aim line, which my brain tells me to do. i thought i was compensating for deflection."

Deflection is another term for squirt. When do you aim a 1/2 tip off the aim line? When doing what?

"are you saying that english causes squirt and if i dont use english i dont have squirt...help i m drowning in a sea of ignorance...&lt;G&gt;"

Yes, english (sidespin only) creates squirt. No sidespin, no squirt, and no swerve. If you strike the cue ball along the vertical axis (ie: no sidespin) it will always travel in a dead straight line exactly parallel to the cue line. Thus, sticking to center ball hits makes aiming almost any cut shot that much easier. You don't have to take into acount squirt, or the curve effect of swerve. It makes the game so much simpler.

Squirt is also called deflection. See the diagram that I made. The cue ball will only move to the side at an angle as diagrammed if the cue ball is struck with heavy sidespin.

To me, I use the term english to define sidespin only. But many people call "english" any sort of spin, and include draw and follow (the dreaded "top english" and "bottom english").

To avoid ambiguity, I prefer to use the term "sidespin" to define spin on the horizontal axis of the ball (the only kind that creates squirt) and "follow" and "draw" to define spin on the vertical axis of the ball. Thus these descriptions avoid the confusing term "english", which can mean only sidespin to some, or follow and draw to others.

I think this reduces confusion caused by the terminology.

I like the term "squirt" better than "deflection", because there are other types of "deflections" that can apply to pool (like the bending of a cue shaft, which is also sometimes called "deflection"). I think squirt is a non-ambiguous name.

Tony

-clear now?......

Fred Agnir
11-18-2002, 09:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TonyM:</font><hr> I like the term "squirt" better than "deflection", because there are other types of "deflections" that can apply to pool (like the bending of a cue shaft, which is also sometimes called "deflection"). I think squirt is a non-ambiguous name.<hr /></blockquote>
I really do agree with you on this, Tony. And I admit, I'm wrong to not question the term "cueball deflection" simply from the fact that there are other deflections in pool. But at this point, it's obvious that just on this board, the term "squirt" that has now been used commonly for over a decade still is misunderstood. Did we ever come up with a good suggestion on another term that might be more intuitive?

Fred

Tom_In_Cincy
11-18-2002, 09:21 AM
Fred,
I have always liked the the phrase "cue ball deviation".

The cue ball 'deviates' from the straight path, to the path caused by the cue stick striking the cue ball with side english.

Cue Ball Deviation .. even sounds better then SQUIRT

TonyM
11-18-2002, 03:56 PM
"But at this point, it's obvious that just on this board, the term "squirt" that has now been used commonly for over a decade still is misunderstood. Did we ever come up with a good suggestion on another term that might be more intuitive?"

Sadly, no. There have been a few suggestions that seem pretty good. But how would we ever get agreement on what to use?

Any ideas out there?

Tony
-some say we've got squirt, why change it?....

Alfie
11-18-2002, 06:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TonyM:</font><hr> Any ideas out there?

Tony
-some say we've got squirt, why change it?.... <hr /></blockquote> squirt

bluewolf
11-18-2002, 06:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Pool is not the kind of game where you all of a sudden see an improvement over night. It is a slowly learned skill (years), and as you get better the small improvements will be fewer and farther apart. When you first start it is exciting because you DO see improvements quickly, maybe every time you play. But that does not last long and you soon settle into a pattern of good days and bad days but you do continue to get better even if it is hard to perceive sometimes. What I am saying is Don't live or die with your day to day performance, you will go nuts. On your good days you think you have discovered some secret, and on your bad days you'll want to quit the game. Just practice, learn and enjoy it, the improvement will come, I promise. <hr /></blockquote>

well i give myself permission to have 'bad hair days' some days i am just not as on. one thing i have noticed is that if i have something in my head that is bothering me, i do not play as well, i think because i cant focus as well...

i dont know how long it will take me to get good, i guess it takes as long as it takes....though i definately consider myself a beginner, something is happening because people like at league i used to think were good dont look so hot anymore....at least my definition of what is good is changing...and too me, i will always be a beginner until i am good, and maybe then i wont see myself as good either. seee, to me this is a good player...making all the cut shots on the table, hard banks, combos,caroms,jumps and massees and three rail kicks with consistency, and play position so well the player can turn a hard shot into an easy shot and run all the balls most of the time...and have a super break etc etc.

blu

Rod
11-19-2002, 12:24 AM
"I do believe where this gets confused is their reference is the cue angle, not the aim line."

I guess I look at it differently than you do then!

I think it what you define as the "aim line" depends on your method of squirt compensation.

Consider this shot (that actually came up in a match a few weeks ago):

START(
%A[7B3%B[4B0%Ct0\4%D[6B0%Es7\1%Fo9H1%Gc1Y7%Hr1L3%IE7S8%JB5C0
%K[5]0%Ls9B9%MB7\0%NB4\2%OB7\8%PQ2X8%Qi2J8%Rk4H4%Us4C8% Vp4G2
%Wn6I1%XQ9X6%Yp4D2%Zs3G9%[U0T5%\o4C3%]n3G9%^R0X5%eA2a1%_r7H6
%`q8H7%ap0H3
)END

With one of my cues my cue (pivot point of about 18") I actually have to point the cue down line "B" in order that the cue ball will travel down line "A"".

That's a pretty big offset as far as I'm concerned (almost a full ball at that distance and speed).

So which one do you consider the "aim line"? A or B?

In order to sink the ball, the cue ball must travel down line A, granted. For a center ball hit, this is the "aim line".

But what if you have to use the extreme side spin and speed like I diagrammed? You cannot "aim" the cue down that line. You have to "aim" the cue down line B.

To me, that's the new aim line.'--------------------------


Above is our conversation.


Tony I tried this shot and set up a couple of others. I agreed that the cue line would be off to the left. I didn't think it would be as far as line B in your diagram. My results were somewhat different using parallel aim. I used your chart again and modified line B. That line is very close, anymore to the left and it's too fat. Here is the change--------START(
%A[7B3%B[4B0%Ct0\4%D[6B0%Es7\1%Fo9H1%Gc1Y7%Hr1L3%IE7S8%JB5C0
%K[5]0%Ls9B9%MB7\0%NB4\2%OB7\8%PQ2X8%Qi2J8%Rk4H4%Us4C8% Vp4G2
%Wn6I1%XQ9X6%Yp4D2%Zs3G9%[U0T5%\o4C3%]r3F3%^R0X5%eA2a1%_r7H6
%`q8H7%ap0H3
)END

There is a fair amount of difference. I had to cuss at you today, were your ears burning? LOL
Here I am paying attention to the cue line making sure of the exact aim, not my way of aiming as I stated earlier. It got me a little fouled up on my routine.
First of all I forgot my chart so I had to go by memory. It was near the same but not exact. The problem with this shot is the c/b hits the end rail then top left bends it over to the long rail. Due to the angle the top takes all the speed off and it never gets back to the area where the c/b started. Here is what happened---------
START(
%A[7B3%B[4B0%Ct0\4%D[6B0%Es7\1%Fq2H0%Gc1Y7%Hr1L3%IE7S8%JB5C0
%K[5]0%Ls9B9%MB7\0%NB4\2%OB7\8%PQ2X8%Qi2J8%Rk4H4%Us4C8% Vp4G2
%Wn6I1%XQ9X6%Yb8G6%Zh1C5%[U0T5%\o4C3%]n3G9%^R0X5%eA2a1%_i3D1
%`o6I5%as0I5
)END

Take a little follow off and the ball just goes longer. Have you shot this EXACT same angle? I moved the c/b so the shot was a little more straight in and got the desired results. Using this diagram, the 7 an 9 are shown to represent where the c/b is placed.--- START(
%A[7B3%B[4B0%Ct0\4%D[6B0%Es7\1%Fo7H2%GU5Y4%Hr1L3%IU4Z6%JB5C0
%K[5]0%Ls9B9%MB7\0%NB4\2%OB7\8%PU7X2%Qi2J8%Rk4H4%Us4C8% Vp4G2
%Wn6I1%XQ9X6%YP3V5%Zk7C6%[U0T5%\o4C3%]n3G9%^R0X5%eA2a1%_l8C9
%`o6G1%as0I5
)END

The change in lines show the c/b path after contact appx.
I found I didn't need to allow for that much squirt as I figured. I also found, forget about how someone else aims. I really don't aim the same even though the cue lines are similar. I asked two other guys today to shoot this. One is a good player the other above average. They both missed it with an overcut as I figured and as you said too. They both told me they aim the c/b and don't pay attention to the cue line, so I guess it's different strokes for different folks.
It was interesting to try as an experiment.
Oh here is one more, the red line is just the shot line. The green line is the cue line to stop the c/b in place spinning. These balls are about 14" apart. I was kind of amazed, not making the shot but the c/b just sat there spinning 3 times of 5, on the other 2, 1 drew a little and went a little off line. The other followed a little and went a little off line. My stroke felt pretty good after that and 2 hrs of practice, glad I went. Here is the shot- START(
%A[8T8%BL3N8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EK9O6%FK3N1%GK6N8%HM7N8%IL7O 4%PU4Y7
%Wr2D3%XT2Z6%Yq0D0%ZU7Y0%eA3a2
)END