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bluewolf
11-16-2002, 06:54 AM
I was missing most of the side pocket cut shots. Then I started using a little inside english and I improved on my pocketing of these shots.

What do You guys use for these shots?

blu

Sid_Vicious
11-16-2002, 08:36 AM
Varies depending on where I'm getting the cb to afterwards, otherwise I don't use any english except for those near 90 degree cuts, then I use extreme outside(and trust my cue to grab, that's important.) I'm guessing you are losing a fundamental in aiming or stroke execution if you are going to inside and correcting your misses. I've fixed problems like these short term and believed I learned a secret, while later finding that the discovery breaks down and other problems crop up. My advice is to work the centerball aim until you get the shots to fall, and make sure you are not inducing any unwanted back hand english. The body tends to want to "help" a cut in by doing things semi on it's own. Oh well, that's my take on side pocket cuts except to say that you should enjoy the sides. Many people say they hate the side pockets, but you should realize that they are the biggest pockets on the table...sid

One more thing, if you are dipping the tip(forcing a finish on the felt) you can also throw these intricate cuts off and you might possibly be causing the balls to not fall. Allison Fisher style of finishing with the tip parallel above the cloth surface is good to study(IMO.) Corr does the same thing, coincidence that they are #1 and #2? I don't think so. Make your finish similiar to theirs BW and forget about the tip on the felt if that's what you have been tought. sv

Popcorn
11-16-2002, 08:40 AM
When you cut a ball in the side in many cases you will be hitting a rail with the cueball. Using english to help make the shot will effect your position play. Sometimes english does help you make certain cuts, but you should be able to make the shot with what ever english you require to play position. Don't become dependent on spinning balls in, it can become a habit. In the long run it could have a negative effect. It is good though to have a trick or two you know works when you may need to cinch a ball, but like I say, just don't become dependent on it, You need to be versatile. By the way, most people who spin balls in use running english, (outside english). Using inside english often helps because, when you are cueing the cueball, it seems to help you line up and hit the spot on the object ball especially if you are very close and the cut is thin. Most players have tricks they use to cinch balls when they need to. There is no right or wrong, you just don't want to form a bad habit if you can help it. Just my opinion

stickman
11-16-2002, 09:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Varies depending on where I'm getting the cb to afterwards, otherwise I don't use any english except for those near 90 degree cuts, then I use extreme outside(and trust my cue to grab, that's important.) I'm guessing you are losing a fundamental in aiming or stroke execution if you are going to inside and correcting your misses.

Many people say they hate the side pockets, but you should realize that they are the biggest pockets on the table...sid

<hr /></blockquote>

My thoughts are pretty much the same. The only reason I would use english while cutting a ball into the side would be for position, and I also use outside for extreme angle cuts, (nearly 90 degree), unless it's on a rail, and then I use inside.

As for those darn side pockets, they have a nasty habit of reaching out and grabbing my cueball far too often, sometimes at some amazing angles. Secondly, I can cut a ball into a corner pocket at almost any angle, not so with the sides. They get considerably smaller at severe angles. I have to admit, they are sort of fun to practice your bank shots on. At least, I prefer the short banks over the long ones. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

bluewolf
11-16-2002, 12:53 PM
I guess i was referring to hard cuts into the side like 70-80 degrees. On very hard cuts, i tend to hit a little fat and have been using inside to spin the cb away, giving me the correct cut.on easy to med hard cuts into the side, i am using straight center ball with sometime a little high or low if I am using the tangent technique that randy taught us in pool school What I am hearing is that I need to work more on accuracy. WW tries to help me, but he uses english on almost every shot.

he will call me to the table and say 'let me show you something' and it is usually an english trick.It is alfully hard to tell your husband that that is the wrong way when he is a sl7 and you are a lower sl.ww is way better than i am so am not implying that he is not good. i just think i want to become the kind of pool player who (like some here have suggested)only uses english when necessary.I know i dont know a lot about position, but based on my current sl,using the rails and speed of the cb seems better for me. Too much english gets real confusing to this camper.

As far as the tip going down,it does rest on the cloth at the end of my follow through and you are correct, this is what I have been taught. Thanks for telling me that allison and karen end with theirs parallel. As far as ending on the cloth, which shots could this mess up. I hit with a pretty straight stroke. my elbow doesnt drop usually but ocassionally does drop an inch or so on the follow when I am having to stretch across the table.

thanks for the suggestions.

blu

Chris Cass
11-16-2002, 01:32 PM
Hi BW,

I too use english (sidespin) on most every shot but not all. It all depends on where I want the cb to travel next. What, I believe your seeing, is edge to edge on these tougher cuts and it's helping you.

It's not a bad thing. Like I said, english is used to get cb positioning. Basically, you could still cut the extreme cuts without english also. The things that really matter in cutting a ball whether it be the side pockets or a corner pocket, is speed.

The speed in which the ob is traveling. The slower the speed of the ob, the bigger the pocket. Meaning, the more room for error and still make the ball. I might every now and then have to pocket an ob on a tough cut at 90 MPH to get whitey, to some miraculas place which is mainly a stupid position error or a bad leave. This happens but all being said, cuts in the side inparticularly have to be made with a good soft roll. If you'd ask anyone I've ever played with? They'd tell you I'd rather cut a ball than bank one. Not saying my banks are bad because they're not. LOL

Regards,

C.C.~~listen to RandyG...... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

stickman
11-16-2002, 01:48 PM
BW, unless I am misunderstanding you, you are using outside english on the thin cuts. Spinning the cueball away from the object ball and trying to keep from hitting too thick would require outside english. Sid and I both do this on very thin cuts. Other than severe angles, I normally don't use english, except for position, or some offline banks. I find that sometimes, severe english makes a simple shot very difficult. For instance, I may have a very easy shot to make, and apply maximum english to achieve position, and completely miss my shot. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif This is mostly due to the spin induced throw, and my not compensating enough.

bluewolf
11-16-2002, 02:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote stickman:</font><hr> BW, unless I am misunderstanding you, you are using outside english on the thin cuts. Spinning the cueball away from the object ball and trying to keep from hitting too thick would require outside english. Sid and I both do this on very thin cuts. Other than severe angles, I normally don't use english, except for position, or some offline banks. I find that sometimes, severe english makes a simple shot very difficult. For instance, I may have a very easy shot to make, and apply maximum english to achieve position, and completely miss my shot. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif This is mostly due to the spin induced throw, and my not compensating enough. <hr /></blockquote>

I am using to english that puts the tip on the cb nearer to the ob. when i put the tip away from the ob, i hit it fat.

bw

stickman
11-16-2002, 02:33 PM
Well then, you are using inside english. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif I wouldn't shoot that way, but that doesn't mean it can't be done that way either. I think as it has been already stated, I would try to become proficient at pocketing these shots without english and then use english only as needed. I only use english to cut balls that are nearly 90 degrees. Less than that, I don't use english, unless I need it for shape.

TonyM
11-17-2002, 03:24 AM
" I was missing most of the side pocket cut shots. Then I started using a little inside english and I improved on my pocketing of these shots."

This is one of those cases where I would not say: "If it works for you keep doing it".

I think that this is a bad habit to get into. What is probably happening is that you are just not seeing the shot correctly yet. You see it too thick. So if you add a bit of inside english, the cue ball squirts away from the object ball, and cuts it thinner than you aimed.

But this will not serve you well in the long run. You will need to be able to make cut shots with any combination of english that is needed for position.

Using english to compensate for poor aim is a disaster waiting to happen! If the distance increases, or you add some extra speed, or if the cueball is near the cushion and you have to jack up a bit, you can expect to miss the pot, and by a wide margin in some cases! You have squirt to contend with, and swerve (which varies with table conditions) and even throw!

It might be working for you right now, but I think it's a dead end.

For basic cuts into the side, or anywhere on the table (side pockets are no different than corner pockets for potting) I recommend sticking with a center ball hit (that is no sidespin, just stun, draw or follow) until you start to master them. That way you will always have the center ball pot aim to fall back on. And you can build on this aim to incorporate english later in your game for position.

I think that english should never be used to pocket an open pot (specialty shots are exceptions). Learn the centerball angles, they will serve you well for your whole pool lifetime.

It may take a little bit longer to learn all the angles with no english, but it's an effort that will pay dividends down the road.

Tony
-center ball potter, unless position demands something else...

TonyM
11-17-2002, 03:34 AM
"As far as ending on the cloth, which shots could this mess up. I hit with a pretty straight stroke."

There aren't any. I think that Sid gave you bad advice on this one. Stick to your simple no elbow drop stroke as Scott taught you. I don't think that the tip going down to the cloth AFTER the cue ball is struck can mess up any shot on this or any other earth! Lol!

After all, the ball is already gone! Who cares what the tip does after the ball is gone?

As for Allison and Karen keeping their cue parallel, this is basically an artifact of keeping your chin in contact with the cue throughout the stroke.

If your chin touches the cue at address, and stays in contact with the cue throughout the stroke, then you cannot keep your elbow absolutely still, on either the follow through, or the back swing. Otherwise, the cue would bash your chin!

I think there are plenty of reasons why they are the top players, but not dipping their tips is not one of them imo.

Tony
-tries to keep his elbow fairly still...

11-17-2002, 09:24 AM
"he will call me to the table and say 'let me show you something' and it is usually an english trick.It is alfully hard to tell your husband that that is the wrong way when he is a sl7 and you are a lower sl.ww is way better than i am so am not implying that he is not good."

He might be doing more harm than good.
He's not a true "instructor".
He might be teaching his bad habits.
A SL 7 doesn't mean he's a good player. At best he's probably an intermediate player himself. If he ever played one of the better,and not even the top players, in your area,you would see how "not that good" he is. For example, tell him to try one of the Planet Pool tour events and see if he can do better than 2 AND OUT.
Listen to what your lessons gave you and don't deviate.

bluewolf
11-17-2002, 09:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote A.L.F:</font><hr> "he will call me to the table and say 'let me show you something' and it is usually an english trick.It is alfully hard to tell your husband that that is the wrong way when he is a sl7 and you are a lower sl.ww is way better than i am so am not implying that he is not good."

He might be doing more harm than good.
He's not a true "instructor".
He might be teaching his bad habits.
A SL 7 doesn't mean he's a good player. At best he's probably an intermediate player himself. If he ever played one of the better,and not even the top players, in your area,you would see how "not that good" he is.
Listen to what you lessons gave you and don't deviate. <hr /></blockquote>

This i know to be true. There are all kinds of sl 7s floating around here that imo should be 5's. I am following the advice here until scott comes back or I can find a good instuctor.

Now I went to the table and used no english. On hard cut shots, i could get pretty many of them in using english. By taking the english away, i missed by cutting them a little too fat. Now if I intentionally cut the ball too thin, the ball goes in. But I wonder if this is just another crutch for inaccuracy.

There was this cut that i could not get in even though i tried it 20 times. ww came up and said use the ghostball and I shot where he indicated. still a miss. then he tried it,still missed. here is the shot.

ob just behind bottom spot. cb directly behind it about 6 inches. i want to cut it into the far corner pocket. I hit it too thin too fat just about every way but in. anybody know how to do this one. i am determined to make it, just need to know how. I am doing very well with the medium difficulty cut shots. It is the very hard ones I need advice on.

I think I will beat ww one day soon but I want to go farther, as far as my capabilities will take me. I am putting no limits on myself.

hope you guys dont think i am being arrogant. i know most of you here are much better than i am at this point, that is why i am listening. it is just that i have this inner drive and hunger to be the best i can be.

blu

11-17-2002, 10:07 AM
There was this cut that i could not get in even though i tried it 20 times. ww came up and said use the ghostball and I shot where he indicated. still a miss. then he tried it,still missed. here is the shot.

-My point about WhiteWolf's abilities

ob just behind bottom spot. cb directly behind it about 6 inches. i want to cut it into the far corner pocket. I hit it too thin too fat just about every way but in. anybody know how to do this one. i am determined to make it, just need to know how. I am doing very well with the medium difficulty cut shots. It is the very hard ones I need advice on.

-At your level is it wise to worry so much about hard shots?(no) if you get good at the easy to medium shots, your hard shots will improve some automatically.

I think I will beat ww one day soon but I want to go farther, as far as my capabilities will take me. I am putting no limits on myself.

- That should be an easily attainable,realistic goal

bluewolf
11-17-2002, 10:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote A.L.F:</font><hr>

-At your level is it wise to worry so much about hard shots?(no) if you get good at the easy to medium shots, your hard shots will improve some automatically.

<hr /></blockquote>

I have been knocking in medium cuts at a high percentage like 8 out of ten. I will continue to practice them especially since I am not 100% yet, but I was getting bored so started working on the harder ones. Also, I think, a hot that looks like it should be easy, I was told was a hard cut or a hard shot. It was bothering me that I only was making some of these 30% and some only 10%.

Forget banks. I do not even bother with those yet unless I can see that it is in the pocket.

blu

bluewolf
11-17-2002, 10:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote A.L.F:</font><hr> There was this cut that i could not get in even though i tried it 20 times. ww came up and said use the ghostball and I shot where he indicated. still a miss. then he tried it,still missed. here is the shot.

ob just behind bottom spot. cb directly behind it about 6 inches. i want to cut it into the far corner pocket. I hit it too thin too fat just about every way but in. anybody know how to do this one. i am determined to make it, just need to know how. I am doing very well with the medium difficulty cut shots. It is the very hard ones I need advice on.

<hr /></blockquote>

ww doesnt get on here much but hope he doesnt see this thread and what you said about him.sometimes also when i got flamed here i had to beg him to let it die.

Horay. I think I figured out that shot. I was cutting on left of ob to right far pocket and it usually went to left of pocket. i bet it is a huge throw and i should be aiming at the right tit. boy am i dum.

blu

Cueless Joey
11-17-2002, 10:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> I was missing most of the side pocket cut shots. Then I started using a little inside english and I improved on my pocketing of these shots.

What do You guys use for these shots?

blu <hr /></blockquote>
I think you were hitting them too thick before. Inside english squirted the cb, hence thinner hit, ball goes in.

Chris Cass
11-17-2002, 12:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TonyM:</font><hr> Learn the centerball angles, they will serve you well for your whole pool lifetime.

It may take a little bit longer to learn all the angles with no english, but it's an effort that will pay dividends down the road.<hr /></blockquote>

Tap, Tap, Tap.....

C.C.

smfsrca
11-17-2002, 01:47 PM
Tony
The citing of squirt in overcoming this problem is one possible explanation. Is it also possible that the correction is the result, not of squirt, but of an untrue stroke?
I have noticed a tendancy by many when they are aiming off center to unconciously move the tip back toward the center on their final stroke. They are hitting thick when they are using a center ball aim and making the shot when they aim off center (inside). When they are aiming off center they are actually moving the tip back toward the center on their final stroke, thus causing the actual line to be the correct line for a center ball stroke.

What are your thoughts on this possibility?

Steve in CA

bluewolf
11-17-2002, 02:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote smfsrca:</font><hr> Tony
The citing of squirt in overcoming this problem is one possible explanation. Is it also possible that the correction is the result, not of squirt, but of an untrue stroke?
I have noticed a tendancy by many when they are aiming off center to unconciously move the tip back toward the center on their final stroke. They are hitting thick when they are using a center ball aim and making the shot when they aim off center (inside). When they are aiming off center they are actually moving the tip back toward the center on their final stroke, thus causing the actual line to be the correct line for a center ball stroke.

What are your thoughts on this possibility?

Steve in CA <hr /></blockquote>

steve, I was doing something like this previously. my wrists are weak and the stroking wrist was bent out. i was bringing the backswing towards my body (crooked) and the forward stroke straight. so it looked like i was aiming at the same place on the cb everytime.i tried rotating my wrist a bit to compensate but my wrist got real tired and sore. i went out and bought a brace which will not allow my wrist to go in or out.at least to our naked eye, this seems to have corrected the problem. if there is still a minute problem there, it would take an xpert to see it. that is one reason i want highly qualified instructor so that my stroke is perfect enough to not affect my aim and also help teach me other things.

blu

bluewolf
11-17-2002, 03:18 PM
i was trying to reply to rackumup but kept getting a blank screen.yeah, i see what you mean but i saw what he was saying too.

btw-the shot that we couldnt figure out, i guess it was deflecting or whatever you call it so much that it had to be aimed an inch to the right of the tit for the ball to go in.i finally figured out something that would have taken most of you 2 seconds to realize. &lt;G&gt;

yeah ken, i have been enjoying the politeness. i guess i was hoping it would stay that way.

blu

Alfie
11-17-2002, 06:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote smfsrca:</font><hr> The citing of squirt in overcoming this problem is one possible explanation. Is it also possible that the correction is the result, not of squirt, but of an untrue stroke? <hr /></blockquote> overcoming what problem?

bluewolf
11-17-2002, 06:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Alfie:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote smfsrca:</font><hr> The citing of squirt in overcoming this problem is one possible explanation. Is it also possible that the correction is the result, not of squirt, but of an untrue stroke? <hr /></blockquote> overcoming what problem? <hr /></blockquote>

maybe my problem with long difficult shots, hitting too fat unless i use english?

blu

TonyM
11-18-2002, 12:36 AM
"I have noticed a tendancy by many when they are aiming off center to unconciously move the tip back toward the center on their final stroke."

Certainly many players do this subconsciously. If you keep your eyes on the contact point while using sidespin, the brain can tell that the cue is not longer parallel to the contact point aim line. And the tendancy is to bring the cue back in towards center. It's a common problem.

Some players when using extreme english will look at the cueball last to prevent this tendancy. I will look at a new aim point, that corresponds to the cue line to prevent this.

"They are hitting thick when they are using a center ball aim and making the shot when they aim off center (inside). When they are aiming off center they are actually moving the tip back toward the center on their final stroke, thus causing the actual line to be the correct line for a center ball stroke."

Certainly this "might" be happening. But even if it is, I still don't think that it's a sound technique. It's like a "trick".

Although, it is similar to a stick aiming method that Hal Houle teaches. For thin cuts he suggest coming into the shot with inside english, and aiming the center of the cueball to the outer edge of the object ball. Then pivot the cue back to the center of the ball, thus creating a "thin" cut-shot cue stick alignment.

Tony

TomBrooklyn
11-18-2002, 12:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> i have this inner drive and hunger to be the best i can be.<hr /></blockquote> "People succeed at just about anything they're genuinely enthusiastic about."
Charles Schwabb

smfsrca
11-18-2002, 12:56 AM
Apparently, you have already explored my scenario and are sure that your stroke is straight.
So, I guess that leaves the only possibility I can think of.
Your stroke alignment and your sighting alignment somehow don't agree with one another.
See if you can answer these questions and perhaps the answer will lead you to something.
1. Is the same thing true for both left hand and right hand side pocket cut shots?
2. If you do not have a problem making corner pocket cut shots of the same angle as your errant side pocket cut shots, what is the difference?

Steve in CA

Fred Agnir
11-18-2002, 09:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> I was missing most of the side pocket cut shots. Then I started using a little inside english and I improved on my pocketing of these shots.

What do You guys use for these shots?

blu <hr /></blockquote>
Could you diagram a particular shot that you're talking about?

Fred

phil in sofla
11-18-2002, 04:39 PM
I usually aim to the overcut side of the pocket and then hit it center ball (sometimes top or bottom), so that if the object ball skids on me, and otherwise would undercut, it can still go in.

If I'm going 3 rails around the table and back to the center (or any part of that shot), I may use bottom outside. If I'm trying to hold up the cue after one rail, I may use inside English (with top).

bluewolf
11-18-2002, 06:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote smfsrca:</font><hr> Apparently, you have already explored my scenario and are sure that your stroke is straight.
So, I guess that leaves the only possibility I can think of.
Your stroke alignment and your sighting alignment somehow don't agree with one another.
See if you can answer these questions and perhaps the answer will lead you to something.
1. Is the same thing true for both left hand and right hand side pocket cut shots?
2. If you do not have a problem making corner pocket cut shots of the same angle as your errant side pocket cut shots, what is the difference?

Steve in CA <hr /></blockquote>

the stroke looks straight to the naked eye, mine and ww, but only an xpert could tell if it was perfect.in my post about the side pocket, i was talking rather difficult shots. i stopped using english and practiced and i am doing better at them.

i dont see a difference between right and left cut shots. i found out that the angle as it appeared into the pocket was not correct. so i moved my tip over and my shot making improved dramatically. without realizing it, i think i was compensating for cling or deflection.

anyway, right now my med cut shots are pretty good unless i am having a bad day, then they drop to 50%.hopefully i will be more consistent as i get better. the balls i was hitting fat were like 80degree cuts, which for some dumb reason i thought i should be able to make. i just see any shot on the table and think i should make it--i just say 'its only an angle' when i miss a hard one, i will shoot the same shot over and over until i am consistent with it.

i guess you could say i am obsessed with everything about pool including my stroke. you know what i do in practice?if i pocket a ball but do not do a perfect follow throug, i put the ball back on the table and do not count it as a hit.

as far as problems with side shots over corner shots, i think a lot of it was in my head and just had to tell my self that i was going to keep firing these side shots over and over until i got them. it worked so i am pretty okay with most of them now. the 80% ones are tuff still but i can get those most of the time if i am real careful not to cut the ball fat.

now that i am conscious of the tendency to cut fat, i have been concentrating real hard not to do that. randy gave us a good method for that and that has been helping also.

thanks for the questions.

blu

Rod
11-19-2002, 01:00 AM
There is not a standard here. You use whatever english or none depending on where you want the c/b to go for position. Get use to shooting it with center, left or right. You'll need to adjust with side english a little. In your case your aim must be a little off if you need inside to pocket the ball. Adjust your stance/head position untill you can make it with center.