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View Full Version : Is the 'Traditional' Pool Stance Dead ?



bigbro6060
11-16-2002, 05:52 PM
Having not been exposed to much pro 9Ball before fairly recently, i haven't seen the 'older' players in action. Then i saw Gerry Watson at the World Pool Champs in Cardiff play. He plays with a very traditional pool stance just like Ray Martin shows in his book, very very upright with a closed bridge.

It seems now more and more the top pros are modifying their stances to incorporate more elements of the snooker stance.
I think it says a lot when the top snooker players can try their hand at 9Ball and do pretty damm well, they aren't at the very top but are very very competitive. E.g. i believe Mark WIlliams and Paul Hunter played at this years world pool champs and do pretty decently. Of course, they would lack certain skills like safeties, banking and kicking but their potting and positional play would rival anyones

I'd be surprised if the top Pool players don't feel just a bit inferior to the snooker players. Aside from the Pool players who also play snooker, i doubt any of the top pool players could try their hand at snooker with any success at all, but the top snooker players can all play pool pretty well.

TomBrooklyn
11-16-2002, 06:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bigbro6060:</font><hr> Of course, they would lack certain skills like safeties, banking and kicking.<hr /></blockquote>Not wanting to deviate from the main topic, but why would they lack safety, banking, and kicking skills? Don't they use those techniques?
-T

bigbro6060
11-16-2002, 06:19 PM
Ok, they wouldn't lack them, it's actually amazing the safeties and escapes they do play on a 12 ft table, but it would mean relearning the angles

Also banking is very rare in snooker

bluewolf
11-16-2002, 07:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bigbro6060:</font><hr> Ok, they wouldn't lack them, it's actually amazing the safeties and escapes they do play on a 12 ft table, but it would mean relearning the angles

Also banking is very rare in snooker <hr /></blockquote>\

I have never played snooker. Also I would never tell anyone to use the stance I use. I never paid much attention. I stand so that my stroke can go thru straight and I am aimed correctly on the ball. maybe a good instuctor would see all that, but i honestly am not sure how I stand. I know though, in Capelles book 'play your best pool' he shows pictures of three different stances. one i believe is the traditional one and the other two are slight variations.

blu

Vagabond
11-16-2002, 08:12 PM
Howdy folks,
After certain age significant number of people develop medical problems of significance( Back ache,Hip pain,Hydrocele,hernia etc,)and these problems cause inconvenience/discomfort to take stance like described in the text books.But people Quickly learn to compensate for their akward stance(adjusting aiming etc,) by changing theirstroking style.
The British equivalent to the word Banking is DOUBLING.By the way I use Snooker stance and I can Bank the balls as good as those bank pool players of Blue grass State.I also use Scissor stance( Never heard of this?) and can pot any long shot in a difficult angle, whenever I want to sink that sucker.Lastly I believe that one should stand in the way that is comfotable to him or her.In yester years they made a big Hoopla about these so called fundamentals( sorry Mr.Brieseth) cheers
vagabond /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Scott Lee
11-16-2002, 08:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vagabond:</font><hr> Howdy folks,
After certain age significant number of people develop medical problems of significance( Back ache,Hip pain,Hydrocele,hernia etc,)and these problems cause inconvenience/discomfort to take stance like described in the text books.But people Quickly learn to compensate for their akward stance(adjusting aiming etc,) by changing theirstroking style.
Lastly I believe that one should stand in the way that is comfotable to him or her.In yester years they made a big Hoopla about these so called fundamentals( sorry Mr.Brieseth) cheers
vagabond /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Vagabond...As a protege of Jerry Briesath, I can attest to his fixation on what he calls "chin lock"! Although I firmly believe that alignment is the key, and not how high or low your body is over the shot...as long as the cuestick is reasonabley level with the table...of the older players that shoot with a more upright stance (myself included), imo, more stand that way because they "see" the shot better, than because they are physically disabled in some way. However, whatever your stance is, it needs to be BALANCED! If you cannot 'free swing' your forearm, you will poke and punch the CB, instead of stroke through it.
I agree that most any stance that is comfortable is okay...as long as it is balanced too.

Scott Lee

Sid_Vicious
11-16-2002, 10:26 PM
"I agree that most any stance that is comfortable is okay...as long as it is balanced too."

Balanced and solid is the key. If you can be bumped or pushed in either direction after down and go off balance, then you ain't got the stance you need. The snooker stance is "rock" as I visually judge it, and it feels that way if you emulate it as such...sid

bluewolf
11-16-2002, 11:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Vagabond...As a protege of Jerry Briesath, I can attest to his fixation on what he calls "chin lock"! Although I firmly believe that alignment is the key, and not how high or low your body is over the shot...as long as the cuestick is reasonabley level with the table...of the older players that shoot with a more upright stance (myself included), imo, more stand that way because they "see" the shot better, than because they are physically disabled in some way. However, whatever your stance is, it needs to be BALANCED! If you cannot 'free swing' your forearm, you will poke and punch the CB, instead of stroke through it.
I agree that most any stance that is comfortable is okay...as long as it is balanced too.

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

I stand so that I am looking down the cue like the barrell of a rifle and so that my stroke can swing freely. If my stroke cannot swing freely, then I move my back foot a little so that I am aligned over the shot. If my arm is too far out to the side, I move my back foot also to bring my arm back in. I know I do not stand square like allison and some of those snooker players and my stroking arm is not jacked up but fairly level like scott and randy g. I am not sure what I am doing to get as low as I do but ww says I have a wider stance with my front leg straight.

I have back problems too but not age related.I injured my back and neck as a child which started acting up a bit in my late 20's. I also was diagnosed with scoliosis at 12 yo.For some reason, these have not hindered me. Drs say that taking karate all of those years is why I can still be athletic and do not have a noticeable curvature at age 50. I have this attitude that if I really want to do something, I will not let anything hold me back. The dr said not to jog or run because it could injure me (but I figure I might not get hurt also )but I like racing with my malamute so I do it.

I also am very flexible so can lay on the table in all sorts of contorted ways to reach the shot, and still keep one foot on the floor. I am also not good with a bridge (maybe could get some instruction here) so just switch hands to shoot.

Anyway, got off topic. I think the stance is somewhat affected by the eyes. Some people who are same side dominant may look down the cue with their dominant eye. Since I playing with my right, but am left eyed dominant I look down the cue with both eyes.

I think I agree with scott and vagabond that as long as a person can do a comfortable stance, whatever they are comfortable with is probably ok. I used to analyze my stance quite a bit. One day I went in the zone and I was sick of all that analyzing so I did whatever felt natural. This seems to have been part of my turning point, when I was comfortable and relaxed at the table and could focus all my attention to the shot.

blu

TonyM
11-17-2002, 03:01 AM
"Then i saw Gerry Watson at the World Pool Champs in Cardiff play. He plays with a very traditional pool stance just like Ray Martin shows in his book, very very upright with a closed bridge."

I've actually played with Gerry and asked him about his stance. This is basically the stance that he has always used. He told me that many of the pros on the pro tour have had back problems, and his stance doesn't stress his back in any way.

Incidentally, what few people know is that Gerry originally came from a Snooker background! (yes, with that stance!). In fact, he was one of the best snooker players in Canada years ago, and played proffesionally.

Canadian Snooker legend George Chenier also played snooker at a very high level with an upright stance and a closed bridge! In fact, he used the same cue for snooker as he did for pool (2 piece maple cue with an 11mm ivory ferrule). He was also a fantastic straight pool player.

I think that aim is not the main reason why the modern snooker players (and 9 ball players) have gone to a low head position. I think that you can "aim" just as well from a more upright position. In fact, most of the top snooker players say that they "aim" while standing behind the ball, before they get down on the shot. Watch O'sullivan play. He spends so little time down over the ball before he shoots, that it seems unlikely that he "aims" when he is down into his stance.

Rather, I think that the low head position is to create a CONSISTENT head position, both in the vertical, and horizontal axis. If your head is 2 feet above the cue, it is hard to tell if it is a bit higher or lower than normal, or even a bit to the left or right of the usual position. A change in head position can lead to a shooting slump.

Putting your head right down over the cue so that your chin actually rubs lightly on the cue during the stroke basically guarantees a constant head location.

Modern Snooker technique is all about eliminating variables, and doing things consistently.

Tony
-chin on cue....

Fred Agnir
11-17-2002, 08:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Balanced and solid is the key. If you can be bumped or pushed in either direction after down and go off balance, then you ain't got the stance you need. <hr /></blockquote>

I'm thinking this exactly backwards. If your stance is indeed balanced, then any bump or push should get you off balance. Doesn't that define "balanced"?

Fred

Fred Agnir
11-17-2002, 08:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bigbro6060:</font><hr> It seems now more and more the top pros are modifying their stances to incorporate more elements of the snooker stance.<hr /></blockquote>
My personal opinion is that this statement already is incorrect, so the rest of your conclusion is shaky. I doubt there is one professional snooker player that believe any professional pool player has anything remotely similar to a snooker stance.

The traditional pool stance has changed for a few reason, the very least of which would be any influence from snooker players. 9-ball's emphasis on shotmaking have forced an entire generation of players to shoot lower. When straight pool was the game, those generations of players played the game more upright, as the game dictates an importance on angles and short paths.

Fred

bluewolf
11-17-2002, 10:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bigbro6060:</font><hr> It seems now more and more the top pros are modifying their stances to incorporate more elements of the snooker stance.<hr /></blockquote>
My personal opinion is that this statement already is incorrect, so the rest of your conclusion is shaky. I doubt there is one professional snooker player that believe any professional pool player has anything remotely similar to a snooker stance.

The traditional pool stance has changed for a few reason, the very least of which would be any influence from snooker players. 9-ball's emphasis on shotmaking have forced an entire generation of players to shoot lower. When straight pool was the game, those generations of players played the game more upright, as the game dictates an importance on angles and short paths.

Fred

<hr /></blockquote>

This is what I heard at pool school. A shot looks straight in when high on the balls. Then it looks off when low on the ball. Randy said this is an optical illusion, that how it looked when high on the ball is correct.

I have seen this in every sport. A person with a personal style that varies from the norm becomes a champion. Then everybody tries to copy them. I saw this in swimming and noticed the same thing in pool.

Why I go low on the ball: Scott and Randy have their upper arms almost parallel to the floor. If I stood up then my elbow would be much lower and as a beginner, I wanted to emulate them as close as I could. Also, going low on the ball keeps my head down and enables me to follow through correctly and freeze until the ob goes into the pocket. The other thing is that I am very distractible. Going down on the ball cuts out a lot of visual stimuli which would make it harder to focus on the shot. Also, it enables me to keep the cue straight with the shot without compromising my stroke.I am sure there are other good reasons, but those are just my reasons.

blu

Scott Lee
11-17-2002, 11:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> I'm thinking this exactly backwards. If your stance is indeed balanced, then any bump or push should get you off balance. Doesn't that define "balanced"?

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Fred...You missed sid's mention of STURDY. As you know, the legs and bridge hand form a tripod, with the weight pretty evenly distributed between all three. Any bump or shove should, at best, result in a minor weight shift, to get back in "balance". This allows for a free-swinging stroke.

Scott Lee

bigbro6060
11-17-2002, 06:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bigbro6060:</font><hr> It seems now more and more the top pros are modifying their stances to incorporate more elements of the snooker stance.<hr /></blockquote>
My personal opinion is that this statement already is incorrect, so the rest of your conclusion is shaky. I doubt there is one professional snooker player that believe any professional pool player has anything remotely similar to a snooker stance.

The traditional pool stance has changed for a few reason, the very least of which would be any influence from snooker players. 9-ball's emphasis on shotmaking have forced an entire generation of players to shoot lower. When straight pool was the game, those generations of players played the game more upright, as the game dictates an importance on angles and short paths.

Fred

<hr /></blockquote>

well Fred, maybe we just disagree here. I'm not saying that Pool players now have exactly the same stance as Snooker players, just that they have adapted their stances using some elements from the Snooker stance. I have read that many many top 9ball players including Earl Strickland have studied Steve Davis's stance. You've already admitted that the 9Ball players shoot lower. Where do you think they got this idea from ? Snooker players are the ultimate cue shotmakers and i'm sure that Pool players have always been aware of this.

bluewolf
11-17-2002, 07:03 PM
well bro, i have never seen snooker played. but i have heard commentators say something about allison standing that way because of snooker. but who knows if the commentator who said that is accurate?

I am one who is learning who to listen to here, and fred agnir is one of those.sorry but you said you were like me that you havent played for long.

i was all full of opinions when i got here and i did not know a thing. i made a lot of mistakes and ate a chunk of humble pie but people here are very knowlegable and patient and gosh i tried their patience!!!!

hope you will enjoy being here and your topics have been good to hear.

blu

Vagabond
11-17-2002, 07:10 PM
Howdy mr.Lee,
I knew that u were going to respond my comment.By the way,have u come across any one with scissor stance( Legs crossed, twined and straight and with out any bending of Knees)? cheers
Vagabond /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Popcorn
11-17-2002, 07:15 PM
You are right about their shot making. I played a lot of snooker players pool years ago. This was before they played the game at all, today many snooker players play both games. You used to sit in chair wanting to laugh. They would run the balls in the craziest ways, but they never missed an open shot. I always felt if they took up pool they would have no trouble excelling.

SPetty
11-17-2002, 08:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vagabond:</font><hr> By the way,have u come across any one with scissor stance( Legs crossed, twined and straight and with out any bending of Knees)? <hr /></blockquote>Howdy Vagabond,

I saw that once, but that's because she had to pee really really bad! /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif hahahaha

bluewolf
11-17-2002, 09:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vagabond:</font><hr> Howdy mr.Lee,
I knew that u were going to respond my comment.By the way,have u come across any one with scissor stance( Legs crossed, twined and straight and with out any bending of Knees)? cheers
Vagabond /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

vagabond,

i dont see the connection. i do not think scott was directing his comment at you per se. When I told scott about my physical limitations, he told me that he had worked with handicapped people before and he would help me to learn how to compensate.

blu

smfsrca
11-18-2002, 01:37 AM
By "Modern Snooker technique" are you referring to anything other than Joe Davis. As far as I can tell most of the top snooker players I have seen look like what Joe Davis describes in his writings and photos.

I'm not sure that Ronnie O' actually aims. As fast as he shoots, I think it must be some form of radar or sonar!

Steve

Rod
11-18-2002, 02:17 AM
Putting your head right down over the cue so that your chin actually rubs lightly on the cue during the stroke basically guarantees a constant head location.

Modern Snooker technique is all about eliminating variables, and doing things consistently.

Tony
-chin on cue....


Good point, maybe that's the reason I see so many play that way. But then again I'd have to say that many pool players used this stance before the snooker invasion so to speak. I think many just can't aim with their head well above the cue.

I've always been a stand up player, including snooker. I see the angle much better that way. Someone made reference to 14-1 being the reason for the older players but their were still many that were down low. I started out playing rotation, 8 ball, then 9 ball then snooker and golf. I had played for some time upright before 14-1. A fellow told me after I mentioned I really got down on a shot. He said I was still 8" to 10" over the cue. Regular stance is abt 14 to 16" above the cue. Can you even see the o/b when your that low? LOL Gives me a sore back just thinking about it!
Btw haven't tried that shot yet, I may go to the PH tomorrow.

TomBrooklyn
11-18-2002, 02:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> well bro, i have never seen snooker played. but i have heard commentators say something about allison standing that way because of snooker. but who knows if the commentator who said that is accurate?

i was all full of opinions when i got here and i did not know a thing. i made a lot of mistakes...

I am one who is learning to listen here.<hr /></blockquote>Your comments strike me as being somewhat non sequitur in inverted order.

While biographer Opie Read quoted pool player Samual Clemens in 'Mark Twain And I' as saying,
"Our opinions do not really blossom into fruition until we have expressed them to someone else";

MT also said, in a letter to J. Twitchell,
"Opinions based upon theory, superstition, and ignorance are not very precious."

Also, the eminently quotable NY Yankee catcher and manager Yogi Berra once said: "You can observe a lot by just looking."

=TB=
Alfie?

Patrick
11-18-2002, 03:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>
I agree that most any stance that is comfortable is okay...as long as it is balanced too.

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>It is not okay. Every stance gets comfortable after you have used it for a while. Why would you use a bad stance that is comfortable instead of the perfect stance that is also comfortable. The perfect stance will get comfortable after you get used to it. The reason why pool players have different stances is because they used it from the start, then they got used to it. Then when they tried to change into a better stance, it was uncomfortable and they went back to their old stance.

Patrick

TomBrooklyn
11-18-2002, 03:59 AM
Patrick,
Could you take some pictures of the perfect pool stance and put them on your website? A pic from a couple of different angles that would illustrate all the correct nuances would be nice. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
-T

Fred Agnir
11-18-2002, 08:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bigbro6060:</font><hr> Where do you think they got this idea from ? Snooker players are the ultimate cue shotmakers and i'm sure that Pool players have always been aware of this. <hr /></blockquote>
This is exactly what proves my point. Of all the players who shoot 9-ball, how many of them have even seen a snooker player? Yet, a generation of players shoot lower and lower. The game of 9-ball has dictated a lower stance compared to the generation of players who grew up playing 14.1 and 3C. Do you think that all (or even a small percentage) pool players who shoot low watch snooker? How?

The discussion of lower stances replacing the upright stance has been discussed many times on internet boards, before the snooker players really started playing pool.

When the World Team Championships started (pre-cursor to the Mosconi cup), the teams with snooker backgrounds (England, Ireland) were easily the worst players in the tournament. Even their shotmaking wasn't an advantage as they had to do way too much beyond their normal snooker shooting to get out. Getting out of line was common for them on shot #1. I'm sure I still have tapes of this. If I find them, I'll send them to you so you can decide.

When Steve Davis was still the #2 player in the snooker world, he played Mizerak several times in pool and snooker. He never won a pool set; Mizerak never won a snooker set. Davis won one game of straight pool running in the 70's; Mizerak won one frame of snooker with a break above 70. Go figure.

Each game has their special skill set required. Those that demand better shotmaking will force the majority of us to go lower.

Fred

heater451
11-18-2002, 11:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bigbro6060:</font><hr> Ok, they wouldn't lack them, it's actually amazing the safeties and escapes they do play on a 12 ft table, but it would mean relearning the angles <hr /></blockquote>Um. . .isn't "safe-ing" someone the very definition of "snooker"?

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bigbro6060:</font><hr> Also banking is very rare in snooker<hr /></blockquote>Just a guess, but this might be seriously affected by the curvature of the rails at the pockets (the ends, not the profile). A bank that has to be accurate to the center of a pocket, after crossing 6-12 ft (width of snooker table, considering both 'legs' of the bank) is going to be quite challenging. If you hit the jaw of the pocket, the ball isn't going to go (with exceptions, I'm sure). It's been a long time since I've messed around on a snooker table, but I think the pocket-to-ball ratio is 'worse' than the one for a pool table, which would make accuracy even more important.

There may also be the possibility that, given the general play of the game, the necessity for shooting a bank is minimal.

. . .And, I'm not so sure, but aren't snooker tables lacking in dots/diamonds (which affects banking reference)?



===============

Scott Lee
11-18-2002, 03:23 PM
Tom...Patrick can only give you a "virtual" stance, since he only plays virtual pool! LOL The "perfect" stance, is the one where your weight is evenly distributed between your two feet and your bridge hand. It must be sturdy, comfortable, and inline with the cuestick. There are several ways you can stand, and have all these variables working. That's why there is no ONE single correct stance!

Scott Lee

TonyM
11-18-2002, 03:47 PM
"But then again I'd have to say that many pool players used this stance before the snooker invasion so to speak."

Of course. The snooker fundamentals came about by a process of evolution over time. The game requires a bit more precision that pool (with regards to potting only), but any pocket billiard game that puts an emphasis on precise potting will eventually begin to develop similar mechanical solutions. You wouldn't have to see a snooker player to come to the same conclusions about why getting down low over the cue is a benefit.

"Can you even see the o/b when your that low? LOL "

Of course! You see the object ball, and the stick and the cue ball in your peripheral vision.

Tony

TonyM
11-18-2002, 03:51 PM
" By "Modern Snooker technique" are you referring to anything other than Joe Davis. As far as I can tell most of the top snooker players I have seen look like what Joe Davis describes in his writings and photos."

Snooker technique has actually eveloved over the years since Joe Davis. If you watch some old tapes of Joe (or see old photos) and watch the new players of today, you can spot the differences.

Today's players stand square to the shot (like Steve Davis, Stephen Hendry, Allison Fisher etc.). Joe stood more parallel to the shot than todays players.

Joe used a fair bit of elbow drop, and actually lifted his head at the end of his stroke. Todays players keep their heads still, and use very little elbow movement.

And so on and so forth. You have to see the dynamic diferences (when the players are in motion shooting) to see all the small changes that have been made.

Hendry's and Davis' pause at the backswing is another.

Tony

Alfie
11-18-2002, 06:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> The "perfect" stance, is the one where your weight is evenly distributed between your two feet and your bridge hand. <hr /></blockquote> That's an awful lot of weight on the bridge hand. A 210 lb man should have 70 lbs supported by his bridge hand?

Vagabond
11-18-2002, 07:53 PM
I liked it.I had a hearty laugh.Cheers
Vagabond /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Patrick
11-18-2002, 10:07 PM
That post shows how little about pool you know.

Snooker players have much better stances and strokes than pool players, because pool players use different stances. The reason why the bad stances work in pool is because 9-ball is such a simple game. You don't need better than a 20% of perfection stroke to be able to run unlimited racks. It is more about position play in 9-ball than accuracy, anyone can make all balls with a bad stroke, this is why they don't change their stroke into a better one, because it doesn't matter.

Patrick

Patrick
11-18-2002, 10:08 PM
Many pool players can't see a difference in stroke between pro players, because they don't have enough experience. You will need many years of watching other players, the easiest to do so is by watching it on TV. Video is the best way to watch the pro players, you can watch the same movement many times, even with slow motion. Snooker is the best to watch because they have much better strokes than pool players.

So how close are the pro players from perfection?

100% - Perfection

90% - Stephen Hendry

63-78% - Top snooker players

20-45% - Top pool players

Here you can see how much difference in stroke the top players have. There's a huge difference between Stephen Hendry and all the other top snooker players. But normal people who watch probably can't see a difference! Before I liked to watch Ronnie O'Sullivan on video because his stroke looked good, but now I feel like vomiting when I try to watch his stroke. Hendry is the only player I can and want to watch. All the other players' strokes look like human strokes, with a lot of sideways, upwards and downwards movements of the cue. It looks very ugly compared to Hendry's stroke. Obviously, the better your stroke is, the more you can do at the table. There are many shots the other top snooker players can't do while Hendry can. For a more difficult game like Rotation Straight Pool, the minimum stroke you will need is 90% of perfection (same as Hendry) in order to play it well. Because 9-ball is such a simple game, you don't need a stroke better than 20% to run racks, the only time stroke matters is with difficult shots, and they don't come up that often. Snooker is also a simple game, a 70% stroke can make 147's easily and win tournaments. The only reason Hendry has dominated the game is because he can make long pots due to his 90% stroke, that's about the only time he has a great advantage. He doesn't have an advantage if there is an easy clearance of the table for both players. Hendry should always win if they would play another more difficult game than snooker.

If you want a good stroke, then Stephen Hendry is the only player that I recommend to watch!

Patrick

Patrick
11-18-2002, 10:17 PM
You should never have more weight than your whole arm weighs on your bridge hand.

Patrick

Patrick
11-18-2002, 10:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> Patrick,
Could you take some pictures of the perfect pool stance and put them on your website? A pic from a couple of different angles that would illustrate all the correct nuances would be nice. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
-T <hr /></blockquote>Yes, I had that idea a year ago, but I didn't want to give away the secrets, what if they use the stance and stroke against me in a tournament?

Patrick

bigbro6060
11-18-2002, 10:32 PM
Patrick, whilst i also tend to favour Snooker fundamentals over Pool fundamentals, i think you are being a bit harsh on the top Pool players. Many are great cueists. There is no doubt that with the bigger pockets, especially the corner ones, that potting is a lot easier in 9ball than in snooker. Also the fact that there are only 9 balls on the table makes position easier but there are other aspects to the game and it is the same for both players so one mistake in 9ball usually costs you the rack!

Banks and kicks are expected to be successful in 9ball, so yes whilst things may appear easier, at the top, everything is played to a higher standard

11-18-2002, 11:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vagabond:</font><hr> By the way,have u come across any one with scissor stance( Legs crossed, twined and straight and with out any bending of Knees)? <hr /></blockquote>Howdy Vagabond,

I saw that once, but that's because she had to pee really really bad! /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif hahahaha
<hr /></blockquote>


you got me.

sittin here gigglin.


dan

Rod
11-19-2002, 12:27 AM
Dan, I wonder how she knew that? do ya think one has to know to do?

Scott Lee
11-19-2002, 12:32 AM
Alfie...I said EVENLY, not EQUALLY. They mean two different things. Evenly means that there is enough weight on the bridge hand to keep the palm firmly planted on the table surface. The weight needed to do that is different for different people, but it is doubtful that it would need to approximate 1/3 of your weight on the bridge hand... perhaps more like 5-10% for a very firm bridge.

Scott Lee

CarolNYC
11-19-2002, 04:56 AM
Dear Scott,
With all due respect:
In a good stance, the bottom half of your body should be leaning back, with most of the weight on the back leg to counter-act all the forward weight of the upper body leaning forward,is this not correct?
Carol~has respect for knowledge!:)

Fred Agnir
11-19-2002, 08:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>
When the World Team Championships started (pre-cursor to the Mosconi cup), the teams with snooker backgrounds (England, Ireland) were easily the worst players in the tournament. Even their shotmaking wasn't an advantage as they had to do way too much beyond their normal snooker shooting to get out. Getting out of line was common for them on shot #1. I'm sure I still have tapes of this. If I find them, I'll send them to you so you can decide.
<hr /></blockquote>
I found the tapes! It'll take me a while to copy them onto another tape. I've got other stuff on there (Borg vs. McEnroe) that I don't want to let out of my site.

Anyway, it was just like I remember. The Irish vs. English match was a nightmare. I think it was 1994, very early in the pool scene in England. All the players were "pool champions" (American Pool) of some sort in Great Britain, and former professional snooker players who obviously weren't top 16 players.

Again, you can judge for yourself, but if you know anything about pool and snooker, you will see that these guys are still playing like snooker, and to boot because the position play is more demanding in 9-ball, they miss relatively easy shots. They miss every bank they attempt, leave "long-shot safeties" common in snooker but ineffective in 9-ball, and pretty much stink up the joint. I couldn't help laughing out loud with every missed position, botched shot, and overall snafus. The commentary was very telling. "The snooker players still have a long way to go" when it comes to 9-ball.

Conclusion, snooker play and snooker stance in of itself is certainly not shown to be an advantage, even amoungst professional snooker players.

Fred &lt;~~~ not disrespecting snooker, snooker players, or snooker fundamentals.

Scott Lee
11-19-2002, 02:38 PM
With all due respect, imo...NO the weight should NOT be more on the back foot. Pool is a forward-throwing sport, and requires a balanced stance that allows the elbow to free-swing through the stroke. If you are standing on your back foot, you are, imo, at a disadvantage to use swingspeed and momentum/timing to stroke the ball.

Scott Lee

SPetty
11-19-2002, 03:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Patrick:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> Patrick,
Could you take some pictures of the perfect pool stance and put them on your website? A pic from a couple of different angles that would illustrate all the correct nuances would be nice. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
-T <hr /></blockquote>Yes, I had that idea a year ago, but I didn't want to give away the secrets, what if they use the stance and stroke against me in a tournament?

Patrick <hr /></blockquote>Hi Patrick,

On your web site, at http://vp3.0catch.com/who.htm , you say, and I quote, "This is why Patrick gives away all his knowledge for free! Everything he creates and invents in the future will be given away for free!"

So, now you're changing your mind and don't "want to give away the secrets"? This is all too human of a trait! Please explain yourself.

Patrick
11-19-2002, 03:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Patrick:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> Patrick,
Could you take some pictures of the perfect pool stance and put them on your website? A pic from a couple of different angles that would illustrate all the correct nuances would be nice. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
-T <hr /></blockquote>Yes, I had that idea a year ago, but I didn't want to give away the secrets, what if they use the stance and stroke against me in a tournament?

Patrick <hr /></blockquote>Hi Patrick,

On your web site, at http://vp3.0catch.com/who.htm , you say, and I quote, "This is why Patrick gives away all his knowledge for free! Everything he creates and invents in the future will be given away for free!"

So, now you're changing your mind and don't "want to give away the secrets"? This is all too human of a trait! Please explain yourself.
<hr /></blockquote>No, a year ago I didn't want to give away the secrets, but now I give away everything, haven't you read my pool articles on my site? I give away the perfect stroke, I started with "The pre-strokes" article.

Patrick

CarolNYC
11-20-2002, 05:23 AM
"So it is said,so it is written" And heard with respect!
Thank-you,
Carol:)