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View Full Version : Why do you hate rap and hip-hop?



MaineEAck
11-19-2002, 08:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Patrick:</font><hr> I am from the 9th dimension, Jesus was as well, everyone is the same there.<hr /></blockquote>Patrick, is it true that most cRap and Hip Hop music are the work of the devil? I think it is.
=TB= <hr /></blockquote>
I don&amp;#8217;t know why people feel the need to bash on rap and hip-hop, Music is changing, is the stuff I listen to. I like it, you don&amp;#8217;t. Don&amp;#8217;t you remember when Elvis first came out? (I don&amp;#8217;t, but anyway!) I heard he was kinda like a rebel, parents didn&amp;#8217;t want kids listening to it. That&amp;#8217;s how rap is, times are changing. Eminem is expressing himself through music, If you could listen to the words and understand what he si saying. I think you would appreciate it a lot more.


More pain inside of my brain than the eyes of a little girl
inside of a plane, aimed at the World Trade
Standin on Ronnie's grave, screamin at the sky
'til clouds gather it's Clyde Mathers and Bonnie Jade
And that's pretty much the gist of it
The parents are pissed but the kids love it
9 millimeter heater stashed in 2 seaters with meat cleavers
I don't blame you, I wouldn't let Hailie listen to me neither

OR
Now how the f$$$ did this metamorphosis happen?
From standin on corners and porches just rappin
to havin a fortune, no more kissin ass
But then these critics crucify you, journalists try to burn you
Fans turn on you, attorneys all want a turn at you
to get they hands on every dime you have
They want you to lose your mind every time you mad
So they can try to make you out to look like a loose cannon
Any dispute won't hesitate to produce handguns
That's why these prosecutors wanna convict me
Strictly just to get me off of these streets quickly
But all they kids be listenin to me religiously
So I'm signin CD's while police fingerprint me
They're for the judge's daughter but his grudge is against me
If I'm such a f$$$$$ menace this s### doesn't make sense B!
It's all political, if my music is literal
and I'm a criminal how the F### can I raise a little girl?
I couldn't; I wouldn't be fit to

I think is you read these, you see that his words are real, and that he has meaning. It's all in how you interpret it.
Well, I am tired, so maybe I am over reacting. Sorry if I am

TomBrooklyn
11-19-2002, 08:52 PM
The reason I dislike some of it so much is because some of it makes wide use of gratuitious vulgarity and violence, promotes reverse discrimination, and demeans the meaningfulness of male-female relationships to new lows. Other than that, I don't knock it.

You might want to take this to the Non-Pool Related Forum, although it could tie here because it is usually in pool halls that I am unfortunately subjected to these obnoxious compositions.

=TB

Wally_in_Cincy
11-20-2002, 07:46 AM
Jordan,

This is why I don't like it. Here's my own little rap tune..and it's true, unlike most of the garbage put out by the "gangsta" wannabes like eminem.
================================================== =======

My nephew listened to that crap for years.
Thought he was a badass gangstah livin' high..
Waved around a "heater" in an old lady's face.
Now he's looking at 2 to 5.
================================================== ===

Rap glorifies violence and prison and degrades women. And these stupid little white boys who have grown up in the 'burbs and never really seen the destructive effects of lawlessness think it's cool.

Any other questions?

Dang kid you got me pissed off now (not at you) /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Fred Agnir
11-20-2002, 08:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>

Rap glorifies violence and prison and degrades women<hr /></blockquote>
I think it's pretty obvious that the glorification of violence, prison, and degradation of women is evident in virtually every style of music.

Much of rap music stems from the story telling of urban youths. Unfortunately, that often involves all of the above. But, I personally can't condemn the genre for it. If it wasn't rap and hip hop, that story telling would still continue in rock or alternative (as it does now). But modern rock and alternative rock, as brutal as some of it is, is simply nicer to listen to for many folks. Run/DMC and Will Smith, two pioneer acts in rap, have nothing to do with the glorification of violence, drugs, or degradation of women.

Fred &lt;~~~ knows that Mr. Tambourine man was about drugs

Kato
11-20-2002, 09:52 AM
Hey Jordan, here's why I hate rap music. In all honesty I simply can't relate. When I listen to it I can't believe the things I hear. I really don't like the violence, 1 on 1 killing, or gangland slayings. I really hate the way they treat women. Women in our society deserve the utmost respect.

Kato~~~rap is also not good for playing pool.

eg8r
11-20-2002, 10:00 AM
I don't think you are old enough to be able to take in everything he says. Do not just take out the parts that you think are him expressing himself.

If you want to really prove your point show all sides and then start your discussion. I have a little bit of the other side for you. There was a song from his first CD where he talks about killing his wife while his daughter is watching, and then takes the daughter to the "dump" site. While talking childish he pushes his dead wife into the water and talks to the baby. This is how Eminem talks about getting rid of the step daddy (and no more restraining order, which shows he was probably abusive, this is just my ASSumption). Wonderful thing to teach young impressionable minds like yours.

eg8r

eg8r
11-20-2002, 10:29 AM
OH Fred, you are usually the stickler on people saying something that is not totally true, but sure enough you did it.[ QUOTE ]
I think it's pretty obvious that the glorification of violence, prison, and degradation of women is evident in virtually every style of music.
<hr /></blockquote>I am sure you will kindly rebut this, but I will list 3 types to refute. 1. Christian music, 2. Classical, 3. Childrens music

I must say, there is a big problem with having to air your dirty laundry out there for the world to hear. Do you really think it helps Eminem get through his white trash life by degrading his family. The only things he seems to cherish is his daughter however he drags her name into his crappy music.

Since everyone wants to tell their story muscially, I wonder why people with medical problems are not out bragging about themselves. I can surely tell you, a person dying of cancer is going through more pain (not only physical) than Eminem has ever seen, however, they are not out broadcasting it to everyone.

It sucks when someone has to explain a joke. The joke is not nearly as successful once this happens. Same thing with people. If you have to rap to tell how bad you life is, then you are lacking somewhere else in your life.

The only rap I hear is when I am at the pool hall (I generally listen to jazz music all day, preferably with a trumpet headliner). One of the things that I notice is that the people who are choosing these rap songs are usually dressed like the white trash that is rapping. To me, this shows that they are saying what the rapper is doing is fine. So all the rapper is doing is promoting their tainted lifestyle and drawing in young minds to continue it (yep I get all that just by the way someone dresses).

eg8r &lt;~~~I do not hate rap music, just the lyrical content. If you could remove the words, sometimes the actual music is alright

eg8r
11-20-2002, 10:35 AM
Hello Tom,

I agree with you almost completely. The only part I disagree with is[ QUOTE ]
promotes reverse discrimination<hr /></blockquote>The part that I don't understand is the reverse discrimination. I wish reverse would not be used. In mainstram America it means that the person is discriminating against a white person, when in actuality that is the wrong definition. Reverse discrimination should really be define as total inclusion of the opposite. I think the proper use would just be discrimination.

It makes me laugh when people with a darker skin than whites get to have their own scholarships and whites are not qualified based on skin color. That is discrimination at its best. ha ha

eg8r &lt;~~~getting off my high horse, and waiting to play pool with all races and music lovers

MaineEAck
11-20-2002, 01:35 PM
I have heard a country song by 3 girls talking about killing a cheating husband and dumping his body somewhere.... Why is that not a big problem with everyone?

rackmup
11-20-2002, 01:40 PM
That's legal here in Texas. You're talking about the Dixie Chicks song about Earl.

He had it coming...he was the wife beater, not the one getting beaten.

Regards,

Ken

Fred Agnir
11-20-2002, 02:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr>I am sure you will kindly rebut this, but I will list 3 types to refute. 1. Christian music, 2. Classical, 3. Childrens music <hr /></blockquote>

No, well... maybe not children's music... where do we put "Ring around the Rosies"? "Rockabye Baby"? "Jack and Jill"?

I'm sure it wouldn't take long to find songs of killing, destruction, mayhem, and a little woman degredation in Classical Music. How about Don Giovanni - Mozart.

And Christian Music? I'll stay away from the religion items. But the entire First Testament is about killing.

Here's some folk music.

http://www.audiogalaxy.com/articles?&amp;a=205&amp;SID=055738062a84ee6d0eb4c4d352303a 15

http://www.audiogalaxy.com/articles?&amp;a=211

[ QUOTE ]

I must say, there is a big problem with having to air your dirty laundry out there for the world to hear. <hr /></blockquote>
Again, not special nor original for rap music. E.g, country music is replete with songs of divorce and cheating.


[ QUOTE ]
Do you really think it helps Eminem get through his white trash life by degrading his family. <hr /></blockquote>

Reading through the lyrics, separating out the language, Eminem has some powerful things to say.

[ QUOTE ]
The only things he seems to cherish is his daughter however he drags her name into his crappy music. <hr /></blockquote>
Well if he and others love his music, "crappy" becomes subjective, right?


[ QUOTE ]
Since everyone wants to tell their story muscially, I wonder why people with medical problems are not out bragging about themselves. <hr /></blockquote>
I'm sure it wouldn't take long to find examples of this, as well.




[ QUOTE ]
It sucks when someone has to explain a joke. The joke is not nearly as successful once this happens. Same thing with people. If you have to rap to tell how bad you life is, then you are lacking somewhere else in your life.<hr /></blockquote>
Again I don't understand this. The history of songwriting is about telling stories, including life stories, in verse and in music. Why would we now look down on that?

Fred

nAz
11-20-2002, 02:54 PM
Great rap lyrics... the message
Grandmaster Flash &amp; The Furious Five


Itís like a jungle, sometimes it makes me wonder
How I keep from goiní under
Itís like a jungle, sometimes it makes me wonder
How I keep from goiní under

Broken glass everywhere
People pissiní on the stage, you know they just donít care
I canít take the smell, canít take the noise
Got no money to move out, I guess I got no choice
Rats in the front room, roaches in the back
Junkies in the alley with a baseball bat
I tried to get away, but I couldnít get far
ĎCause the man with a tow truck repossessed my car

Donít push me Ďcause Iím close to the edge
Iím tryiní not to lose my head, huh, huh, huh, huh

Itís like a jungle, sometimes it makes me wonder
How I keep from goiní under

Standiní on the front stoop, hanginí out the window
Watchiní all the cars go by, rolliní as the breezes blow
A crazy lady liviní in a bag
Eatiní outta garbage pails, used to be a f@# hag
Such a nasty tango, skipped the life in Dango
Was hooked on princes, seemed she lost her senses
Down at the peep show watchiní all the creeps
So she can tell her stories to the girls back home
She went to the city and got Social Security
She had to get a pimp, she couldnít make it on her own

Donít push me Ďcause Iím close to the edge
Iím tryiní not to lose my head, huh, huh, huh, huh

Itís like a jungle, sometimes it makes me wonder
How I keep from goiní under
Itís like a jungle, sometimes it makes me wonder
How I keep from goiní under

My brotherís doiní bad, stole my motherís TV
Says she watches too much, itís just not healthy
All My Children in the daytime, Dallas at night
Canít even see the game or the Sugar Ray fight
The bill collectors, they ring my phone
And scare my wife when Iím not home
Got a bum education, double-digit inflation
I canít take the train to the job, thereís a strike at the station
Neon King Kong, standiní on my back
Canít stop to turn around, broke my sacroiliac
A midrange migraine cancered membrane
Sometimes I think Iím going insane, I swear I might hijack a plane

My son said, ďDaddy, I donít want to go to school
ĎCause the teacherís a jerk, he must think Iím a fool
And all the kids smoke reefer, I think itíd be cheaper
If I just got a job, learned to be a street sweeper
Iíd dance to the beat, shuffle my feet
Wear a shirt and tie, and run with the creepsĒ
ĎCause itís all about the money, ainít a damn thing funny
You got to have a con in this land of milk and honey
They pushed that girl in front of the train
Took her to the doctor, sewed her arm on again
Stabbed that man right in his heart
Gave him a transmit for a brand new start
I canít walk through the park Ďcause itís crazy after dark
Keep my hand on my gun Ďcause they got me on the run
I feel like a outlaw, broke my last glass jaw
Hittiní Ďem and sayiní, ďYou want some more,Ē liviní on a seesaw

Donít push me Ďcause Iím close to the edge
Iím tryiní not to lose my head, say what

Itís like a jungle, sometimes it makes me wonder
How I keep from goiní under

A child is born with no state of mind
Blind to the ways of mankind
God is smiliní on you, but heís frowniní too
Because only God knows what youíll go through
Youíll grow in the ghetto liviní second rate
And your eyes will sing a song of deep hate
The places you play and where you stay
Looks like one great big alley way
Youíll admire all the number book takers
Thugs, pimps and pushers, and the big money makers
Driviní big cars, spendiní 20s and 10s
And you wanna grow up to be just like them, huh
Smugglers, scramblers, burglars, gamblers
Pick-pocket, peddlers, even pan handlers
You say, ďIím cool, huh, Iím no foolĒ
But then you wind up droppiní outta high school
Now youíre unemployed, all non-void
Walkiní Ďround like youíre Pretty Boy Floyd
Turned Stick-Up Kid, but look what you done did
Got sent up for a 8-year bid
Now youíre manhood is took, and youíre a Maytag
Spend the next two years as a undercover f@#
Beiní used and abused to serve like hell
Till one day you was found hung dead in the cell
Itís was plain to see that your life was lost
You was cold and your body swung back and forth
But now your eyes sing the sad, sad song
Of how you lived so fast and died so young

eg8r
11-20-2002, 03:39 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure it wouldn't take long to find songs of killing, destruction, mayhem, and a little woman degredation in Classical Music. How about Don Giovanni - Mozart.
<hr /></blockquote>This is pretty close but I do not count it as the same. My personal opinion though. The killing you speak of is a duel, not a drive by. He is a womanizer but he does not demean the women through his lyrics instead the women are more spoken of as sort of a victim. In rap the woman are spoken of as another notch on the belt or a conquest. These are big differences.

<font color="red">I edited this section out because it was a brain lapse for me (I miss-read your thread).
The new testament was not about the killing that you hear in rap music. The contexts are so completely different you must be having trouble comprehending the two. Also, I have trouble remembering a song that was about Cain and Abel that was written with vulgarities and song on mainstream radio.

[ QUOTE ]
Again, not special nor original for rap music. E.g, country music is replete with songs of divorce and cheating. <hr /></blockquote>Since you brought it up, please show me a country song that is as vulgar and demeaning to women as any of Eminems rap song. I am not talking about insinuations or interpretations.

[ QUOTE ]
Reading through the lyrics, separating out the language, Eminem has some powerful things to say.
<hr /></blockquote>I doubt it. Once again, this is soley based on interpretation. I was originally pointing out explicit vulgar and demeaning things he says. You cannot remove those things just to get what you want out of it.

[ QUOTE ]
Well if he and others love his music, "crappy" becomes subjective, right?
<hr /></blockquote>First thing comes to mind...Sheep. Maybe everyone should dress and talk like him.

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since everyone wants to tell their story muscially, I wonder why people with medical problems are not out bragging about themselves.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I'm sure it wouldn't take long to find examples of this, as well.
<hr /></blockquote>I doubt it is in the same context as we are talking about. If so, then list them for all to check out.

[ QUOTE ]
Again I don't understand this. The history of songwriting is about telling stories, including life stories, in verse and in music. Why would we now look down on that?
<hr /></blockquote>The meaning or reasoning behind songwriting was not in question. It is the way of going about it. I guess it is a way of portraying yourself. We look down on his presentation. It is tough to find music that is as vulgar and deamning as his in prior history. Some might sing a song telling a story but it is almost never as graphic or as demeaning or vulgar.

eg8r &lt;~~Just opinions

rackmup
11-20-2002, 03:46 PM
The First Testament is what you say but it isn't a song, it's scripture.

And I defy you to find any contemporary Christian song that advocates death, violence, wife-beating or killing your Mother.

The only death spoken of in contemporary Christion music is that of Jesus givin His life on the cross.

Regards,

Ken

TomBrooklyn
11-20-2002, 03:59 PM
The lyrics in that one nAz are ok with me. In other words, I may or may not care for the song if I heard it, but I wouldn't condemn it. The reasons are it has no gratuitous vulgarity, and I find little vulgarity actually has a good context, and the violence is in the context of a young person living in the getto where crime is high and he feels helpless. Those lyrics express a feeling, tell a story, show sensitivity. The violence I don't like in some rap songs is when it is thrown in just for shock value or glorified.

A lot of rap music I don't much care for just because I'm just not particularly fond of the musicality of it. I also feel that way about some other kinds of music or particular artists in my favorite kind of music, which is rock. However, thats just my preference and accounts for my taste and what I heard most as a youngster. Also, I'm not a big lyric listener, I enjoy the music more than care about the lyrics in most songs.

The cRap music I really condemn, however, has lyrics that I actually find offensive. That lack sensitivity, don't appropriately fit into a story, or promote nasty things like discrimination. I find much of it is like this. And the lyrics are relatively more prominent than the music compared to other genres and hard to ignore even if one liked the music.

=TB

9 Ball Girl
11-20-2002, 04:46 PM
Hi Tom. The lyrics that Naz provided are from a rap song from back in the early 80s. That's probably why you like it. Rap music now (which I'm not really a fan of although some of them do have nice beats) is so much more different. I think the new artists like to see how far they can go. Basically, IMO, today's Rap tells the same story as the one Naz provided only today there is more crudeness (is that a word?) and vulgarity. Just looking at the lyrics you can substitute some of the more "modern" vulgar phrases. Unfortunately, all of that stuff sells.

And to Naz, thanks for the lyrics. I haven't heard that song in ages! It brings back memories of playing whiffle ball out in front of my stoop on Wyckoff St. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

eg8r
11-20-2002, 05:27 PM
they are not using the vulgarities that are used in your beloved rap music. You will not hear, f this and f that, nor do they degrade men in general, an example would be rappers calling all women sluts and the such and even more nasty terms.

eg8r &lt;~~~Able to take a step back from the meaning and analyze the presentation (use of words)

Voodoo Daddy
11-20-2002, 05:31 PM
Tom, lyrics like "Its gettin hot in herre, so take off all your clothes" {Nelly} or "cause baby I'm a thug" {Trick Daddy" or my all time favorite "Its like that and thats the way it is" {Run-D-MC) keep me listenin to rap....NOT!!!

Fred Agnir
11-21-2002, 07:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr>
I doubt it. Once again, this is soley based on interpretation. I was originally pointing out explicit vulgar and demeaning things he says. You cannot remove those things just to get what you want out of it.<hr /></blockquote>

My main point is that you (your side of the fence) has stated over and over all these things you hate about "rap." And that's what I'm rebutting. Rap in of itself can't be unfairly judged as "vulgar and demeaning to women." That belittles its history and artform as modern urban folk music. If I can give examples of good rap music that doesn't have vulgarities and such, then I think I've made my point and you have to redefine what you don't like. Whatever it is, it can't be the entire genre. As a music lover, it would be ironic to hate an entire genre based on the minority of songs in that genre. That goes against the point of music to begin with.

Blondie was the first popular musician to introduce rap music to the mainstream with her song "Rapture." There's nothing vulgar about that. I've already pointed out pioneers in the genre like Run DMC and Will Smith. They aren't the exception. The list goes on and on.

Alanis Morisette's "You Outta Know" is another case in point. It's vulgar. It's got sexual explicity. But it's powerful. It's the ultimate "f*ck you for hurting me." You can certainly get by the vulgarity and get the meaning. Based on one song, it would be unfair to judge poorly the entire genre which may include Paula Cole and Sheryl Crow, just because of the presentation of vulgarity in that one song. It doesn't even represent the rest of Morisette's music.

Hate Eminem all you want because the vulgarity and demeaning of women. But, to be fair, you'd have to hate the Dixie Chicks for the similar reasons. How they can make light of murdering a man and the reasons behind it is beyond me. As I said before, if you can get by the the vulgarity, Eminem has some powerful things to say.

Fred

Fred Agnir
11-21-2002, 07:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr>
A lot of rap music I don't much care for just because I'm just not particularly fond of the musicality of it...

The cRap music I really condemn, however, has lyrics that I actually find offensive. <hr /></blockquote>
This is fair, and I think most people who "hate rap" really are talking about these two points.

As an aside, I personally would rather see Eminem not use vulgarity in his verse because musically, he's head and shoulders above most of those that preceded him. To eg8r's point, the vulgarity overshadows what would otherwise be a new and fresh twist on rap music (for those who enjoy listening to rap.)

Fred

Fred Agnir
11-21-2002, 07:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr> Great rap lyrics... the message
Grandmaster Flash &amp; The Furious Five


Itís like a jungle, sometimes it makes me wonder
How I keep from goiní under...<hr /></blockquote>
Oddly enough, this is the quote I put under my high school yearbook photo.

Fred

bluewolf
11-21-2002, 08:57 AM
guess i am an old foggie, but dont particular like the sound of rap, although I have heard Christian Rap too, and it certainly did not have any cusswords in it.

I just prefer classical,celtic and soft rock and even hard rock sometimes.

blu

eg8r
11-21-2002, 09:29 AM
I feel Will Smith (his recent stuff) does a great job of doing his thing with out all the vulagarity. Maybe his style should be what up and coming rappers strive to emulate.

eg8r

eg8r
11-21-2002, 09:44 AM
I agree with most of what you have said (I don't hate all rap, just most.)

[ QUOTE ]
As a music lover, it would be ironic to hate an entire genre based on the minority of songs in that genre. That goes against the point of music to begin with.
<hr /></blockquote>I personally do not think the point of music was to make sure I like an entire genre. I am not sure what the original intended (secular) point of music was. In my beliefs, I know that music was introduced as a way for believers to offer their praise to God. If that is the intended point of music as I see it then I can hate entire genres if they choose to include things that do not belong.

As a person who exercises choice, I do not hate all rap. I have told you exactly what I hate, the vulgarity, blah blah blah...I think if Eminem or whomever decides to tell their story and they choose to use that sort of language then the depth of their story is quite shallow. I think if you are passionate about what you are talking about, then you should take a stab at sounding a bit more intelligent. There are a million ways to say some of the things he (Eminem) raps about but he chooses the lowest form of language on the communication totem pole. You will hear this sort of trash talking with beggars and grovelers. Sure the language is used at all levels of society but the ones that have the best control of it are those I listed previously. I guess this is why Eminem is so comfortable using the language, it appears this is where he has come from (if you can believe everything he whines about in his noise).

eg8r &lt;~~~Said my peace

Ludba
11-21-2002, 03:00 PM
I don't dislike all rap music, but newer rap music (aside from say Eminem and a few others) has sort of caved in on itself. You have artists sampling rap songs from the early nineties. It's almost incestuous. There are few new ideas being tossed around in rap, and that's why it is gradually killing itself off.

The thing is, when rap started getting big in the eighties, it was street music. It was new and fresh and sort of counterculture. And after a while, bands like NWA and Public Enemy came along, and rap became more about telling the story of the frustration of being a black man in america than about a new genre with limitless possibilities. While Public Enemy is an example of a good band (maybe even one of the best bands of its era), its imitators are not.

It's a lot like the situation with Nirvana. Kurt Cobain and his band exploded on the scene in 1989, when it seemed all rock was left with was a handful of good bands, but mostly just a bunch of embarassing, three-chord hair bands. The light-year leap to Nirvana's music made bands like White Lion and their ilk look ridiculous. Grunge, which derived from punk (a very niche type of music to begin with), was something new and fresh, so well-meaning imitators jumped on the bandwagon. But imitation is the sincerest form of destroying a genre.

The thing that keeps rap afloat through its time of trouble is that it has already been established in the mainstream, both because of the demographic at which it aimed (young black males) and because of the demographic which it picked up by strange coincidence (young white males). It also brought in hispanic bands for whatever reason, which meant an opening to a whole nother cultural group looking for mainstream recognition. Furthermore, you had bands like the Beastie Boys who pioneered the rap/rock sound, bringing in all kinds of options for listening tastes. By comparison, grunge appealed mainly to angsty white teenage boys, but most of its lead bands (Nirvana, Blind Melon, etc) hadn't stayed around long enough to maintain that population base nor long enough to pick up a new one. There was little in grunge that appealed to the bulk of any other demographic sections.

The thing I like about Eminem is that he has breathed fresh, new life into a seemingly dead music style. Vanilla Ice, though his skin may have been a lighter shade than his contemporaries never really changed anything else about his adopted music. In fact, his songs were really just a bubble gum version of those he was trying to imitate.

Today, artists like P. Diddy, though talented in their own right, are not changing the artform in any noticeable way. And change (not reverting back to hackneyed forms) is what keeps music interesting. Then you have bands like Nellie and Mystikal, which are what I call "happy sunshine bands." They just want to show the world a good time with their music. This isn't bad in itself, but it gets old quick, and soon some other band or musical style is showing people a better time. Escapist music lasts just long enough for the public to escape whatever is stressing it out (work, unemployment, 9/11, etc.) In 1999, you had a bunch of these happy sunshine bands in the rock world: Lenny Kravitz, Smash Mouth, ad nauseam.

So, it's like you say: as long as the music is changing, it should be the stuff you listen to, but it gets weighed down by the bulk of its own popularity, because when people find something they like, they milk it for all its worth instead of giving it some time to breathe and evolve. Radio stations play the same song over and over again. People play "their song" on the jukebox 12 times a day for a month, and after a short while, it's not fresh anymore. It's the same old cRap we heard last week.

MaineEAck
11-21-2002, 03:31 PM
Will smith's stuff does not sell as well for that reason exactly

eg8r
11-21-2002, 03:42 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Will smith's stuff does not sell as well for that reason exactly <hr /></blockquote>Which goes to prove there are a lot of young minds that desire the filth and degradation that the white trash king (Eminem) brings to the music world. Another real top dawg out there that is idolized is Snoop Doggy Dogg. What a great person to call dad. He now has his own pornographic adventures. I really hope once his kids grow up, they have a chance to think for themselves before their fathers stupidity pulls the leash. There is more to life than money, sex and drugs.

I would venture to believe that Will Smiths music sells just fine. As a matter of fact, I am almost positive that he sells more albums than 99% of the rest of the rappers out there.

eg8r

TomBrooklyn
11-23-2002, 07:40 AM
The introduction of a new kind of music must be shunned as imperiling the whole state, for styles of music are never disturbed without affecting the most important political institutions. ... The new style, gradually gaining a lodgement, quitely insinuates itself into manners and customs, and from it ...goes on to attack laws and constitutions, displaying the utmost impudence, until it ends by overturning everything. -- Plato, "Republic", 370 B.C.

stickman
11-25-2002, 08:24 AM
Some rap is okay, but the majority seems to be filled with vulgarity and negativity. I can't stand to listen to some rapper curse every other word any more than I care to talk to someone who does. The negativity is displayed in many of the lyrics with the theme surrounding drugs, sex, violence, crime, hate, and killing, etc. Some of the younger crowd like this stuff. It appeals to the rebellious nature of youth. They say it is truth. I agree, it's just not the side of life I care to dwell on. Yes, I listened to music that my parents didn't particularly care for, but nothing quite this radical. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Give this old fart a good love song, ballad, or something a little more uplifting.

Ludba
11-25-2002, 04:01 PM
That's a good point. Do you think Plato was being ironic, just as you are? Or do you think this was simply his own faithfully logical argument? He said similar things about theater, if I remember correctly.

heater451
11-25-2002, 04:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> . . .As an aside, I personally would rather see Eminem not use vulgarity in his verse because musically, he's head and shoulders above most of those that preceded him. To eg8r's point, the vulgarity overshadows what would otherwise be a new and fresh twist on rap music (for those who enjoy listening to rap.)

Fred <hr /></blockquote>Funny part is, Dr. Dre does the production work for Marshall Mathers (Eminem), and IMO is hugely responsible for the backing beats. He and Mathers probably laugh there way to the bank, whenever someone throws the word "racist" around. . . .However, I do believe Eminem/Mathers has a talent for stringing words together.

As for vulgarity, I agree that it's not completely necessary, and, although I could see it used 'sensibly' in cases where heavy, "lyrical punctuation" is needed, it's far overused. I see it as just another case of how every generation thinks they are "pushing the boundaries", when they are only ignoring the limits. (Consider how "eXtreme!" everything has to be nowadays.)


~~Another funny thing, I had some make-up/extra credit work way back in high school, and one of the assignments I had to choose from was (something like): Does overuse of exaggeration and hyperbole cause a desensitization to communication?


====================

heater451
11-25-2002, 04:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> . . .So all the rapper is doing is promoting their tainted lifestyle and drawing in young minds to continue it (yep I get all that just by the way someone dresses).

eg8r &lt;~~~I do not hate rap music, just the lyrical content. If you could remove the words, sometimes the actual music is alright

<hr /></blockquote>Do you find the individual artists to blame, rather than the record companies who control packaging and distribution of the material?

After all, a lyricist can hide behide the 1st Amendment, but corporations are motivated by the dollar alone. (Please pardon the generalization--I'm sure there are some altruistic corporations out there, maybe even in the "Non-Profit" arena. . . .)

And, what about those who purchase the material (or the parents who allow their children to buy it)?



=====================

Rod
11-25-2002, 09:54 PM
Quote Jordon, "If you could listen to the words and understand what he si saying. I think you would appreciate it a lot more. snip

Well there is your answer. LOL JK there MainEack but my speakers don't convert it to english!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Vicki
11-26-2002, 01:29 AM
"What came first - the music or the misery? Did I listen to music because I was miserable? Or was I miserable because I listened to music? Do all those records turn you into a melancholy person?

"People worry about kids playing with guns, and teenagers watching violent videos; we are scared that some sort of culture of violence will take them over. Nobody worries about kids listening to thousands - literally thousands - of songs about broken hearts and rejection and pain and misery and loss. The unhappiest people I know, romantically speaking, are the ones who like pop music the most; and I don't know whether pop music has caused this unhappiness, but I do know that they've been listening to the sad songs longer than they've been living the unhappy lives."

From: High Fidelity by Nick Hornby

It's not what we are like, but what we like, that makes us who we are. (That's really another quote from High Fidelity but I can't find it in the book so I may not have it exactly perfect.)

I believe that what we like defines us. I worry about people who claim to be fans of rap music - never trust anyone who listens to songs about killing women, killing cops, drive bys, doing drugs, doing time, their baby's momma, their other baby's momma... I don't enjoy listening to it. I don't relate. I don't get it.

For the record, I don't like sappy, sentimental, cry yourself to sleep, pop crap either. Don't trust anyone who listens to songs about breaking up, breaking down, loss, rejection, cheating, or their dog getting hit by a semi on the interstate.

And that's how that is, IMO.

Vicki

Vapros
11-28-2002, 12:07 AM
I'm afraid the fine art of whistling will just die out. We are raising whole generations of kids who don't know any tunes.

12-02-2002, 02:32 PM
MaineEack-

I think this verse is better suited for this topic.

They say music can alter moods and talk to you, well can it load a gun up for you , and cock it too?
Well if it can, then the next time you assault a dude, just tell the judge it was my fault and I'll get sued
See what these kids do is hear about us totin' pistols and they want to get one cuz they think the [censored]'s cool
not knowin' we really just protectin' ourselves, we entertainers, of course the [censored]'s affectin' our sales, you ignoramus
But music is reflection of self, we just explain it, and then we get our checks in the mail. It's [censored] up ain't it?
How we can come from practically nothing to being able to have any fuckin' thing that we wanted
That's why we sing for these kids, who don't have a thing except for a dream, and a fuckin' rap magazine
who post pin-up pictures on they walls all day long, idolize they favorite rappers and know all they songs
Or for anyone who's ever been through [censored] in their lives, till they sit and they cry at night wishin' they'd die
Till they throw on a rap record and they sit, and they vibe. We're nothin' to you but we're the fuckin' [censored] in they eyes
that's why we seize the moment try to freeze it and own it, squeeze it and hold it, cuz we consider these minutes golden
and maybe they'll admit it when we're gone. Just let our spirits live on, through our lyrics that you hear in our songs"

The problem with Rap music is not in the music itself, it is in the way it is interpreted by many people. I greatly enjoy various types of music, and I must admit rap is my favorite. Many people listen to Rap music and only certain words register, which make people believe that the music is all about drugs, violence and abuse. When in fact many rappers do not condone these things at all, and they try to discorage listeners to participate in these actions. I understand that this type of music is not for everyone, but what I do not understand why people can dismiss this interesting art form as crap when they obviously do not understand it and have never been around the type of environment that breeds rap music. To understand something and not like it is one thing, but to not understand it and disregard it completely is ignorance. I would suggest to all of the members here to take the two hours and actually watch 8 mile with an open mind. It will atleast give you a little better understanding of the base behind this genre of music. Then if you don't like it, atleast maybe you will understand why others do. Another suggestion I have is pick up the book "Angry Blonde" the only book on the market actaully written by Eminem. It has the lyrics from all his songs and an inside look at the meaning and reasons behind the songs. You may be suprised.

Randy

Ludba
12-02-2002, 06:39 PM
The unfortunate thing about good advice is that those who need it most usually can't appreciate its usefulness, and those who are convinced by it probably agreed with it from the start.

TomBrooklyn
12-02-2002, 08:33 PM
It's generally a good idea to avoid giving advice. It's better to say what you have experience of and what resulted from your experience. There is a difference. Experience=knowledge, advice=opinion. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

If you do give advice, and it's good, the person you told will forget you told them and think it was their own idea. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif If you give them bad advice, they'll blame you for everything that goes wrong as a result of it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
=TB

TomBrooklyn
02-04-2003, 02:17 PM
MainEack,
For your 411, /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif I don't dislike all cRap Music. For instance, I got a kick out of JCrew's version of 2Pac Shakur's "Changes", although it contains explicit lyrics not suitable for children. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif It's dedicated to all my peeps in the suburban white areas of America. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif Trip on it here (http://www.daretosing.com/?view=70 ) and keep it real, dogs. Peace Out. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

PS: Are you competing at VF again this year?

Tom