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View Full Version : Can you be a CHRISTIAN and be GAY ?



bigbro6060
11-22-2002, 04:16 AM
if there's one thing which is very clear in the bible, it's that homosexuality is wrong and is a sin

so can a person be a christian and be gay ?

bluewolf
11-22-2002, 05:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bigbro6060:</font><hr> if there's one thing which is very clear in the bible, it's that homosexuality is wrong and is a sin

so can a person be a christian and be gay ? <hr /></blockquote>

This very question has tormented many. I personally have had some gay friends who believed the Bible and tried to switch to hetero and due to the emotional stress, when they were not successful, either had nervous breakdowns or turned to drugs and alcohol. I have at one time struggled with this since,my gay friends often acted 'more christian' than most people in churches.

If you have studied the old testiment,you know that the Hebrew race was very legalistic and performed many rituals to earn their way into grace. At the same time, God wanted the people to populate the earth. Homosexual acts would be counter productive to this objective. Even if you take the old testament literally and not allegorically, would seem that throughout the ages, writers were inspired to put down words in such a way as the people of that day could comprehend.

The other references are in the New Testement, especially in the writings of Paul. Most modern translations refer to his admonision as 'practicing homosexuals' for what that is worth. In addition to that, sometimes Paul's words were inspired and some were of his own opinion.

I believe that each person must decide for him or herself. Look at the book of revelation.It was closed in terms of understandind at the time it was writen. I personally believe that John did not understand the vision he saw, but put it down in the only way that he had to express what he was seeing. As our technology has increased and we come closer to the end (whenever that may be) that the words are starting to make some sense.

I believe in a God of love and if Jesus blood covers all sins, then I am hopeful that mercy will be shown to all of us, in spite of our many differences.

blu

bluewolf
11-22-2002, 05:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bigbro6060:</font><hr> if there's one thing which is very clear in the bible, it's that homosexuality is wrong and is a sin

so can a person be a christian and be gay ? <hr /></blockquote>

There is another way to look at this too.The Bible also states:

judge not lest you be judged
you reap what you sow
love covers a multitude of sins
James says referring to sin "if you are guilty of one, you are guilty of all"
Paul stated, to para phrase, 'we know partially, we will know as we are known when the complete and perfect comes'.I interpret this to be the coming of Christ. Others interpret this differently, yet are no less Christian.

God is spirit while I am a mere mortal trying to interpret words pened 2000 -4000 years ago. how do I know I have interpreted those words the way God intended, especially in the finer points.

What if I went out and told many homosexuals that they cannot be christians or participate in a hereafter with God, and these people turned away from christianity, and it turned out I was wrong?

Would I not share a responsibility for these lost souls while God was willing to embrase them?

So I choose not to judge and recognize while some of the words seem to be clear, I am only human and can only do the best I can in the interpretation of spirit matters while I am bound by my physical form.

blu

eg8r
11-22-2002, 07:04 AM
I would have to say the homosexuality is pretty clear. I don't think "man lay with man" leaves anything to the imagination or false interpretation.

eg8r

eg8r
11-22-2002, 07:10 AM
If you are gay and decide to dedicate the rest of your life to the Lord, and you are sincere in your commitment to your beliefs (Christianity) then you will cease to continue sleeping with your own sex. The bible is pretty clear on this issue and if you have any doubts you can read about Sodom and Gomorah.

Now, do I condemn or judge this lifestyle, NO. I will not change my attitude toward anyone or harbour any negative feelings about their choice. I firmly believe there will be a day when they have to answer and atone for their sins. At that point, it will be discussed rather directly between them and the Almighty Judge.

eg8r

Fred Agnir
11-22-2002, 08:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bigbro6060:</font><hr> if there's one thing which is very clear in the bible, it's that homosexuality is wrong and is a sin

so can a person be a christian and be gay ? <hr /></blockquote>
It's normally frowned down upon to discuss religious opinions on forums. Regardless if it's a "No Particular Topic" forum.

Fred &lt;~~~ trying to stave off something bad

rackmup
11-22-2002, 09:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bigbro6060:</font><hr>...can a person be a christian and be gay?<hr /></blockquote>

To answer your question, 'Yes', you can be gay and still be a Christian.

The more complex problem lies with the connection of the two. The Bible states:

"Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin."
Leviticus 18:22

"...That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved."
Romans 1:26

"Don't you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, those who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, thieves, greedy people, drunkards, abusers and swindlers-none of these will have a share in the Kingdom of God."
1 Corinthians 6:9-10

The act of homosexuality is clearly in defiance of Scripture. But, God loves everyone. It is the act He detests. Salvation is given through the acceptance of Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.

The homosexual Christian that denounces the practice of homosexuality and accepts Christ as his Lord and Savior, will receive salvation from God. However, there is more to it than just refreaining from the practice of homosexuality! As indicated in Acts 2:37-38,

"Peter's words convicted them deeply, and they said to him and to the other apostles, "Brothers, what should we do?"
Peter replied, "Each of you must turn from your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the the gift of the Holy Spirit."

So, if we are to believe Scripture, to be accepted into God's Kingdom, we must stop ALL sinning! And that is a tough one for as long as we are of this flesh, we WILL sin. But, God is willing to forgive our sins! What a wonderful and merciful God we have! We have to avoid repeating our sins, avoid people that lead us to sin and lead our lives as God would want us to, everyday.

And I agree with Fred Agnir on this one, even though I have jumped up onto the soapbox and stated my views. The forum for this discussion isn't here but instead, it should be at Church with your Pastor, Priest, Minister, etc.

Regards and thanks for my time on the stage,

Ken (IHS)

bluewolf
11-22-2002, 01:15 PM
Even though I posted to this too, I have to agree with Fred. Last week it was politics, this week religion, generally topics to be avoided on forums.

blu

Ludba
11-22-2002, 02:07 PM
"If you are gay and decide to dedicate the rest of your life to the Lord, and you are sincere in your commitment to your beliefs (Christianity) then you will cease to continue sleeping with your own sex."

How bout this: if you are a liar and decide to dedicate the rest of your life to the Lord, and you are sincere in your beliefs (Christianity), then you will cease lying.

But we know that's not the case. A liar won't stop lying altogether. All people fall short, even once they have given their life to Christ. Lying is at least as bad if not worse than homosexuality. I mean, homosexuality didn't even make it into the ten commandments. And it is pointed out that all liars will have their place in hell. Homosexuality didn't get nearly as much air time in the Bible.

But the question is really, can you continue to have sex with your own gender and still love God and know and believe in your heart that Jesus Christ died for your sins, and as a result you are washed clean? But the Apostle Paul said that we must die in the flesh daily, so the homosexual must continually be at odds with their own desires, because to become a christian they have chosen a different path than that of the flesh.

But here is where you simply have to put in your own definition for what homosexuality means. Is it the desire itself? or does the act of sex with your own gender make it wrong? If it's the desire, then we have to conclude that homosexuals can be christians, just as liars and bigots and cheats and anyone else who's fallen short of God's word can be christians. If it's the act, then the answer is probably not.

This is all assuming that homosexuality is wrong in the first place which I don't.

rackmup
11-22-2002, 02:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ludba:</font><hr>If it's the desire, then we have to conclude that homosexuals can be christians, just as liars and bigots and cheats and anyone else who's fallen short of God's word can be christians. If it's the act, then the answer is probably not.<hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ludba:</font><hr>If it's the desire...<hr /></blockquote>

"...throw off your old evil nature and your former way of life, which is rotten through and through, full of lust and deception. Instead, there must be a spiritual renewal of your thoughts and attitudes. You must display a new nature because you are a new person, created in God's likeness-righteous, holy, and true."
Ephesians 4:22-24

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ludba:</font><hr>If it's the act...<hr /></blockquote>

Homosexual behavior has no place among Christians.
Read 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Scripture on the subject of Homosexuality is very clear. Again, while we are of this flesh, we will sin in thoughts and in actions. Sin begins in the mind:

"You have heard that the law of Moses says, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust in his eye has already committed adultery with her in his heart. So if your eye-even if it is your good eye-causes you to lust, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your hand-even if it your stronger hand-causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell."
Matthew 5:27-30

Does this mean the homosexual person who has ceased from participating in homosexual acts but thinks about them is a sinner? According to Scripture, Yes.

Does Scripture really expect us to gouge out an eye or sever a hand? In my Christian beliefs, No.

What it does mean is, do not allow yourself to be placed into these trying situations. If the eye is going to lead you to sin, turn that eye away from the temptation. If the hand is doing the same, withdraw the hand that is reaching for sin, and instead, raise it to the Heavens and ask God to guide you toward a path that is righteous.

Regards,

Ken

Ludba
11-22-2002, 04:43 PM
If I were a Christian, I would probably agree exactly with what you say. I thought of putting the Matthew verse in my original post, but I've been writing a lot of long posts lately, so I thought someone else might mention it.

I cannot in good conscience accept that thinking is sinning, even if the thought is evil. The verse may say exactly that, though perhaps it could be argued that Jesus isn't equating thinking with sinning, rather he is just issuing a warning to people that thinking evil thoughts leads to the action itself.

Regardless, the issue is that I don't accept the Bible as the inspired Word of God, though I did at one time. Either I'm wrong or I'm right, but it is a question of faith. And faith is a result of a personal experience with God. I do not faithfully accept the Bible as infallible, so I can't accept it as His Word. That sort of chunks the homosexuality question out the window.

So what's left is the following. I'm not attracted to men, so I'm not homosexual. Other people are homosexual. It doesn't hurt me. As long as they aren't hurting other people (please don't subject me to the gays = AIDS argument), I really don't care what they do. It's not a question of morality to me. Even if it were a moral question, the Christian response is worse than the "immorality" that spawned the debate to begin with.

I view the homosexuality debate in the same way as Catholicism's view of contraception. It's not about being a good person; it's about family values and marketing. "If we don't have people procreating, we can't continue to spread the Word."

rackmup
11-22-2002, 04:52 PM
To me, as a faithful Christian, I try to live by the word of God. That doesn't mean I hate or even dislike someone who is gay. I have gay friends, some right here on the CCB. I believe a true love of God is important. I do consider him my Lord and Savior. I do believe in the bible and it's scriptures.

It's just a matter of faith. God has worked in my life, I have had prayers answered and I feel His presence in my life daily. I am happy with my faith and beliefs as you must be with yours.

Who is to say whose faith and beliefs are right or wrong? It is neither mine or your place to judge. That is left to Him.

Regards,

Ken (wishes at times, God would help me pot a nineball or two)

eg8r
11-22-2002, 04:54 PM
[ QUOTE ]
How bout this: if you are a liar and decide to dedicate the rest of your life to the Lord, and you are sincere in your beliefs (Christianity), then you will cease lying.
<hr /></blockquote>Certainly, you will do everything in your power to refrain.

[ QUOTE ]
But here is where you simply have to put in your own definition for what homosexuality means. Is it the desire itself? or does the act of sex with your own gender make it wrong? <hr /></blockquote>No you could never be more wrong. It is not a decision of which you try to distinguish, it is explicitly stated in the Bible what Gods stance is on the subject. First, it states not to have sex with your same gender (I believe rackmup has listed these scriptures). Second, the 10 Commandments says, "Thou shall not covet thy neighbor". This commandment takes care of the first part of your statement, desire.

[ QUOTE ]
This is all assuming that homosexuality is wrong in the first place which I don't. <hr /></blockquote>This is your decision. You choose not to believe this part of the Bible.

eg8r

rackmup
11-22-2002, 05:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ludba &amp; eg8r:</font><hr>Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is all assuming that homosexuality is wrong in the first place which I don't.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is your decision. You choose not to believe this part of the Bible.
<hr /></blockquote>

This will be my final post on this subject.

While one faith can emphatically state homosexuality is accepted by 'their' God and another just as emphatically state it isn't, is merely the manner in which Scripture and His words get manipulated, twisted, leveraged, and interpreted to benefit that person's/church/faith's position on this topic and many others.

Just look at all of the different religions/versions of Scripture.

Without mentioning the particular religion, one depicts God standing among men clad in Roman Gladiator attire when He visited the Americas. No mention of the American Indians, no depiction of the American Indians. Just Roman Gladiators.

I've seen plenty of American Indians but not one Gladiator. Go figure.

Regards,

Ken (Faith is what is important here)

Ludba
11-22-2002, 06:14 PM
"Who is to say whose faith and beliefs are right or wrong? It is neither mine or your place to judge. That is left to Him."

That's an enlightened view. Unfortunately, the dilemma for Christians is "do I defend my world and my religion from something that I consider wrong or do I just try to persuade them to my side, assuming that I can't say someone else's beliefs are wrong?" The Pat Robertson answer is they're wrong and evil, so choose the first option. And even the second option is a little intrusive from the non-Christian's pov.

But can we qualify homosexuality as equal to say lying or adultery or even murder? I personally think all three are much worse. But as a Christian, can you afford to let liars, adulterers, murderers, or homosexuals into your Church?

I'm being a little facetious. The problem here is inherent in the original question of whether gays can be Christians. The mentality behind it makes Christianity more about being an exclusive club than about finding a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and God. That's the biggest problem for me with Christianity, not its tenets, but rather the concept of fellowship with other Christians. It's the cliche philosophy: I believe in God, but I don't believe in organized religion. I think a relationship with God should be very personal, something so sacred you don't even share it with others. That directly contradicts the idea of being an apostle for Christ and spreading the Word. This is one of the few areas where I think others' input hurts more than it helps.

I'm sure you've read the bumper sticker,"Dear God, please protect me from your followers," or something along those lines. It expresses my philosophy that oft times people get in the way of a meaningful relationship with God.

Ludba --would sell his soul for a nineball on the break

Ludba
11-22-2002, 06:56 PM
"Certainly, you will do everything in your power to refrain."

I agree. That was the conclusion I reached later on in the post, that if homosexuality is an act, then it cannot coincide with Christianity if the Bible says that homosexuality is wrong. If it is a desire, then there's still some leg room.

""Thou shall not covet thy neighbor". This commandment takes care of the first part of your statement, desire"

Extremely weak argument. The Matthew verse explains better, but even that is subject to interpretation. Your reference only vaguely relates to homosexuality. And it certainly doesn't say that homosexuality is a desire. It doesn't even necessarily say that covetousness is solely a desire.

It's unreasonable to say that if you want to have your neighbor's ferrari, that you've broken God's commandment. Now if you went over and took his car, then there's probably something there. I mean, come on, think about the situation the Hebrews were in. Are you telling me God wants you to have a nervous breakdown feeling guilty about wanting somebody else's stuff? Gimme a break. He's being parental and saying,"Don't even think about it," not "Thinking about doing something is sinning."

"No you could never be more wrong."

I apologize. I misspoke. I meant to say that this is where you as a Christian have to put in the Bible's definition. I leave it up to you to decide what the Bible says. Not being a Christian myself, I have to put in my own definition.

TomBrooklyn
11-22-2002, 06:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bigbro6060:</font><hr>One thing which is clear in the bible is that homosexuality is a sin. So can a person be a Christian and gay?<hr /></blockquote>Since when has what's written in the Bible been cause to stop a determined Christian from believing just about anything they want? /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif The Bible has been used by Popes to justify wars and some of the biggest corruption schemes in world history, for goodness sake. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

In more routine events, there is a decided propensity in Catholic clergymen to engage in homosexual acts; and the Bible continues to out-sell and have more interpretations at odds with each other than any other book ever written.

I believe it is the Episcopalian Church whose official position is that homosexuality is not a sin. Consequently, homosexuals in large numbers have joined that faith. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

=TB

Ludba
11-22-2002, 07:06 PM
rackmup: "[it's] merely the manner in which Scripture and His words get manipulated, twisted, leveraged, and interpreted to benefit that person's/church/faith's position on this topic and many others."

Amen.

"Faith is what is important here"

Again, amen.

TomBrooklyn: "In more routine practice, the Bible continues to have more interpretations at odds with each other than any other book ever written."

The light of truth is filtering into this thread. Very little is "clear" about what the bible says, but a handful of Christians is willing to vehemently defend with their dying breath the utmost clarity of the scriptures.

"If you're not confused, you don't know what's going on."

ludba - hoping he is utterly confused. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

TomBrooklyn
11-22-2002, 07:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr>do I condemn or judge this lifestyle, NO. <hr /></blockquote>Do you believe suspending judgement makes you a better person?

Do you believe it is kind to be tolerant of wrongdoing?

=TB

TomBrooklyn
11-22-2002, 08:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rackmup:</font><hr>Without mentioning the particular religion, one depicts God standing among men clad in Roman Gladiator attire when He visited the Americas. No depiction of the American Indians. Just Roman Gladiators.<hr /></blockquote>When and where did The Great Almighty purportedly visit our American shores? Why wasn't I notified?

I can't comment on the gladiators without knowing more about the story. Why won't you name the religion? Are they trying to keep a low profile?

=TB

Chris Cass
11-22-2002, 08:48 PM
Nope, it's against the law to be gay and a christian. I think you get the stone treatment. I've always wondered if this gay thing isn't something your born with. You know, instead of just electing to be gay. I think the same goes for christians too. However, I think you can be born nonchristian and then using logic decide to be a christian. Either way, do they make the best pool players? What demension are we talking about?

C.C.~~what kind of question is that?????? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Ludba
11-22-2002, 09:53 PM
"Nope, it's against the law to be gay and a christian."

Finally! The voice of reason!

"I think you get the stone treatment."

I'd become gay, if it meant free marijuana. I hear you can get all the pot you want from the Fifth Dimension. They just went on tour again.

eg8r
11-22-2002, 11:19 PM
You choose to believe in what you would like. It does not matter in the end what the rest have been doing. You are responsible and will reap what you sow.

eg8r &lt;~~~Believes it is wrong, but to each its own.

eg8r
11-22-2002, 11:33 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Do you believe suspending judgement makes you a better person?<hr /></blockquote>This is pretty funny of you. I am just wondering, have you gone through your whole life editing out the parts you don't want to confront and only read what you want to read. This is quite an admiral post. Just to complete the thought process that you clipped off, my background and belief is that it is wrong. I on the otherhand have decided to go my own route and let people make their own decisions and I don't have to worry about trying to change the world. You on the other hand appear to bring nothing to the conversation, so maybe I can help you out...Please answer the post or say something intelligent in a reply. I surely hope you do not think you are better after your wonderfully thought out reply.

[ QUOTE ]
Do you believe it is kind to be tolerant of wrongdoing?<hr /></blockquote>Did I say that I was being kind or tolerant. What I said was that I will not pass judgement. Since you asked the question maybe it is fair to pass it back...You are mister "conjecture", why don't you answer you own well thought out questions.

eg8r

eg8r
11-22-2002, 11:39 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Extremely weak argument. The Matthew verse explains better, but even that is subject to interpretation. Your reference only vaguely relates to homosexuality. And it certainly doesn't say that homosexuality is a desire. It doesn't even necessarily say that covetousness is solely a desire.<hr /></blockquote>There is no need for you own intrepretation, the scripture is quite clear. I don't think you are going to be able to decide whether homosexuality is physical or mental. On the physical aspect, the Bible is clear, DO NOT DO IT. When you say desire, then I am thinking that you have decided in your mind that there is a person you want to be with, period. This is where the desire part falls under the commandment that I listed. This commandment does not distinguish sexual choice, it only says not to have thoughts about your neighbor. A desire is a mental attribute and it falls closely in line with the commandment, not to covet.

eg8r &lt;~~~You meeester are trying to argue your own weak argument

eg8r
11-22-2002, 11:44 PM
I am sorry for the double post, but I decided to read the rest of your post, now I am unsure why, you are quite bold to take it into your own hands to tell me what God was "probably" meaning. [ QUOTE ]
Are you telling me God wants you to have a nervous breakdown feeling guilty about wanting somebody else's stuff? Gimme a break. He's being parental and saying,"Don't even think about it," not "Thinking about doing something is sinning."<hr /></blockquote> You might want to go back and read some more. This time block out your own intrepretations. I am a firm believer that you are totally accountable for your thoughts.

eg8r

nAz
11-22-2002, 11:54 PM
OK my view on this is you do what you want to do just dont hurt anyone. as gross out as i get when i think of two guys going at it i feel that thats between you your god and Satan.
beside i did the math on this... More gay guys = more women for me /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r
11-22-2002, 11:55 PM
I guess that is what I feel also. Do your thing, and the end will take its course.

eg8r

Chris Cass
11-23-2002, 12:03 AM
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

rackmup
11-23-2002, 12:08 AM
I'm curious Tom...of what religion do you include yourself?

Regards,

Ken

rackmup
11-23-2002, 12:15 AM
[ QUOTE ]
The light of truth is filtering into this thread. Very little is "clear" about what the bible says, but a handful of Christians is willing to vehemently defend with their dying breath the utmost clarity of the scriptures.
<hr /></blockquote>

You point the finger at Christians as being the only group "willing to vehemently defend with their dying breath the utmost clarity of the scriptures."

This is insulting. I believe in what I believe. You believe in what you believe. There are other religions out there that are as 'radical' in their defenses of their interpretations of Scripture as you say we Christians are. Some fly planes into buildings, others strap explosives to their children and send them into crowded bus terminals, others choose cyanide-laced kool-aid parties while others who claim to be acting on 'God's' commands, park rental trucks laden with explosives next to Government buildings.

I say this to you then decidedly end my participation in this thread: Choose a God and believe in Him. Worship that God in whatever manner you choose (without harming others) and pray for the very salvation you believe that God will hold for you.

That is faith. It is neither right nor wrong. It is simply faith.

Respectfully,

Ken

rackmup
11-23-2002, 12:18 AM
I'll pray for you.

Ludba
11-23-2002, 12:55 AM
Either you misunderstood what I was saying or I didn't say it right. My point was that it is a small group of people who demand a strict interpretation of the Bible. And you, sir, are not among that group. You obviously believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, but your reading of it is not extremely literal. It is reasonable even from a non-Christian's point of view.

I certainly wasn't condemning all Christians, and I wasn't trying to insult you. And I wasn't singling out Christians. It's just happens to be the area of consideration where this applies to some of them. I agree that there are plenty of groups, religious or otherwise, that defend an idea to absurdity.

The thing that made me think of it was the bold statement which started this thread: "if there's one thing which is very clear in the bible, it's that homosexuality is wrong and is a sin." Immediately when I read that, I could think of 10 things that are clearer in the Bible.

The first one that jumped into my mind was God's love for all his creations. "God is love."

The second was a commandment: "Thou shalt not kill." This is seemingly clear, but even that has some glaring contradictions throughout the Bible. The passages on homosexuality are even less clear than the imperative statement above.

So it is an insult to my intelligence and everyone else's to say that the biblical stance on homosexuality is the clearest thing in the Bible. That is what I was getting at. If I've offended anyone, please forgive me.

Ludba
11-23-2002, 01:19 AM
"I don't think you are going to be able to decide whether homosexuality is physical or mental."

On the contrary, I think we will be able to tell based on empirical scientific proof. Perhaps we don't have all the information now, but we have indications from the scientific community that there is evidence of which is the case. It'll take 'em a while before they agree, but I think I will be able to know the truth with some certainty eventually, and I can make some reasonable guesses now. Either way, should I just rely on what someone tells me they believe in order to form an opinion? No. I should work with what I got, until I gots more.

How bout this one: King David both coveted another man's wife and repeatedly committed adultery with her. Is he NOT a Christian?

ludba

P.S. Does anyone remember this verse: something along the lines of 'even the devil can quote the bible'? I've totally butchered it, but the idea is there.

eg8r
11-23-2002, 01:51 AM
[ QUOTE ]
How bout this one: King David both coveted another man's wife and repeatedly committed adultery with her. Is he NOT a Christian?<hr /></blockquote>
I took the following from another website, these are not my words but they might help you.
[ QUOTE ]
"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death" (Rev. 21:8).
David was unsaved when in unrepentant sin (as was Bathsheba), according to Rev. 21:8! If David didn't repent, he would have missed the Kingdom, according to these clear Scriptures.<hr /></blockquote>I don't think it really matters whether I think he was a Christian or not, all that really matters is whether or not he was granted repentence.

One question, do you like to change subjects when your argument falls short? I mean, you went from homosexuality to an adulterer/murderer. Maybe in your next reply you will find another person in the Bible guilty of breaking one of the 10 commandments.

eg8r

Ludba
11-23-2002, 01:57 AM
"One question, do you like to change subjects when your argument falls short? I mean, you went from homosexuality to an adulterer/murderer."

No, no. You went from homosexuality to covetousness. I was responding with analogies of sins and sinners. I don't lack confidence in my previous argument. I'm just trying to follow your zigzag. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I think this conversation is prone to making everyone a little hostile. I AM trying keep it moving so we don't get bogged down in one trivial (or worse yet, unresolvable) point, like semantic discussions of the definition of homosexual.

Ludba
11-23-2002, 02:03 AM
"If David didn't repent, he would have missed the Kingdom, according to these clear Scriptures."

So, he didn't have to not commit the sins; he just had to repent about them some time before he died. This was someone who was A-okay in God's sight other than this particular transgression. In fact, God blessed him despite this sin. Contradiction?

eg8r
11-23-2002, 02:03 AM
[ QUOTE ]
The thing that made me think of it was the bold statement which started this thread: "if there's one thing which is very clear in the bible, it's that homosexuality is wrong and is a sin." Immediately when I read that, I could think of 10 things that are clearer in the Bible.
<hr /></blockquote>That is great. Please list 10 things clearer in the Bible that discounts all the Scripture that has been shown to prove homosexuality is against God and Christianity.

[ QUOTE ]
The first one that jumped into my mind was God's love for all his creations. "God is love."<hr /></blockquote>This is a nice start. Now try to be unlike tominbrooklyn (sp?) and list of the rest. God did not stop there when defining himself. If you cannot find the rest in that verse then continue searching because he continues to define himself. It is nice to just stop when you hear what helps your defense, but then you would be cheating yourself, and whatever readers are left on this thread, of the whole complete definition. Just to list a few, he is the Almighty, Judge, etc.

[ QUOTE ]
So it is an insult to my intelligence and everyone else's to say that the biblical stance on homosexuality is the clearest thing in the Bible.<hr /></blockquote> No reason to feel insulted but here you go:[ QUOTE ]

"Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin."
Leviticus 18:22<hr /></blockquote>If this is ambiguous then stop because you are too easy to insult.
Here is another pretty clear verse:
[ QUOTE ]
"Don't you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, those who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, thieves, greedy people, drunkards, abusers and swindlers-none of these will have a share in the Kingdom of God."
1 Corinthians 6:9-10<hr /></blockquote>I hope you are not insulted still but these are pretty clear.

eg8r &lt;~~~Regurgitated rackmup's post (the scriptures) and used the scriptures he pointed out earlier

eg8r
11-23-2002, 02:22 AM
[ QUOTE ]
So, he didn't have to not commit the sins; he just had to repent about them some time before he died. This was someone who was A-okay in God's sight other than this particular transgression. In fact, God blessed him despite this sin. Contradiction? <hr /></blockquote>You might need to drink some coffee, it is getting late. To answer you, what are you talking about, he already commited the sins, that is why he is lumped into the group. Yes, he did beg for forgiveness so I don't think there is any contradiction, his sins were washed away.

eg8r &lt;~~~Tired of the lame arguments

Ludba
11-23-2002, 02:24 AM
"Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin."
Leviticus 18:22

I admit to never having read this in the Bible or in rackmup's post earlier. Shame on me.

Now that we've proven beyond a shadow of doubt that homosexuality is so clearly sinful, why don't we go back to addressing the issue of calling oneself a Christian and gay. The question framed at the beginning is essentially,"Who can we let join our club?" And probably bigbro didn't mean it this way. Maybe he meant to ask a bigger question, which is "Who is good enough to call themselves a Christian?" I submit that no one is, save Jesus Christ himself.

And basically, we all come to the same conclusion in the end, that it isn't for us to decide who gets into heaven. But... it IS for Christians to decide who can worship God here on earth. And they can make it difficult on those people worshipping God alongside them, or they can do like rackmup and just accept that they have faith in the same loving God who sent his son to die for their sins, however numerous or detestable. So if we can change the original question to "Can you be gay and still be accepted as a Christian so that you can express your love for the Lord?", I'd answer,"I sure as hell hope so."

eg8r
11-23-2002, 02:35 AM
[ QUOTE ]
No, no. You went from homosexuality to covetousness. I was responding with analogies of sins and sinners. I don't lack confidence in my previous argument. I'm just trying to follow your zigzag. <hr /></blockquote>For the end of the night lets finish this...First off you began talking about desire. Desire is a mental thing, which is covered under the commandment against coveting (please read the definition http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=covet) thy neighbor. I was showing you how desire also makes it against God to be homosexual. You felt that maybe someone is homosexual because they desire another of the same sex. This is being covetous, do you follow.

I will not continue the he said she said game with you. Go back read your post (if you can stomach it) and see where you talked about desire...Then read where I cover that with the commandment...Then go to where you switch topics (topics being first homosexuality, second adulterer/murderer). You are trying desperately to find something out of nothing. Everyone can read the Scripture and make their own ideas from them. The ones listed are anti-homosexual(also very clear to non believers), if you would like to look up and post some scripture that is pro-homosexual then fine, otherwise your words are mute. You have no ground which to stand so that is it. Bring something to the table that shows you can have a strong personal relationship with God and continue to sleep with someone of the same sex and then maybe someone will listen to you. This thread was based on Christianity so your non-Christian outlook already hinders you from being able to clearly and concisely(sp?) make your point let alone logically prove it.

eg8r &lt;~~~Going to bed now

Wally_in_Cincy
11-23-2002, 11:19 AM
. And if your hand-even if it your stronger hand-causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell."
.................................................. .........

Does this mean the male homosexual should cut off his ####?

Your perpetually backsliding Christian friend,

rackmup
11-23-2002, 11:35 AM
Wally...you are a nut!

Mr Ingrate
11-23-2002, 11:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> . And if your hand-even if it your stronger hand-causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell."
.................................................. .........

Does this mean the male homosexual should cut off his ####?

Your perpetually backsliding Christian friend, <hr /></blockquote>

I've known a few pool players who could be classified as HOBOsexuals ....... they're fvcking bums.

Wally_in_Cincy
11-23-2002, 12:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rackmup:</font><hr> Wally...you are a nut! <hr /></blockquote>

I guess that's better than being a ####. LOL

Resembling that remark,

bluewolf
11-23-2002, 07:07 PM
well i believe in the bible, that is i interpret it the best i can,being a mere mortal.
I believe in aliens.
I believe many were born gay and did not choose.
I believe in other dimensions.
I believe in anything paranormal.
The x files.
Visions.
and Pool.

blu

TomBrooklyn
11-24-2002, 01:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> I've always wondered if this gay thing isn't something your born with. <hr /></blockquote>Few people are born 'gay'. It can occur to one extent or another when a person physically produces an abnormally high amount of hormones ordinarily found in the opposite gender. By far, however, most gay persons fall within the parameters of physical normality and make their lifestyle choices based on their emotions, feelings and beliefs.

The most common causes and reasons amongst men include the lack of a male role model early in life combined with an over doting mother or other female role models; having a small penis; general feelings of insecurity, and fear of having their sexual advances rejected by woman.

Consequently some decide to take the easier and less risky path of engaging promiscuous men in relatively emotionless sex from whence they can derive a feeling of being in control and having power in the relationship. Oftentimes it is a combination of the above factors that come into play.

The most common cause and rationale amongst women seems to stem from repeated disappointment leading to disillusionment in trying to find a suitable male mate who meets their standards.

Thank you. That will be $20.

=TB

TomBrooklyn
11-24-2002, 04:06 AM
It is more than a little interesting that the Bible condemns homosexuality. It is this type of wisdom that in no small part is responsible for making the Bible such a timeless and highly respected work. The ancient writers clearly knew that homosexuality was an abnormal human condition. It is unclear to me at least, not being a scholar of ancient writings, to what extent they understood the dysfunctional causes of homosexuality as I outlined above.

It does seems likely to me that, at least in part, it was their sense of the mental torment that results from being homosexual that they described as hell.

Recent philosophers and psychologists such as Eli Siegel (Aesthetic Realism, NY) and Nathaniel Brandon (The Six Pillars Of Self Esteem) have been able to define in clearly understood terms the mental state resulting from homosexuality which includes feelings of separateness and alienation, contempt, confusion, and low self esteem. It sounds like hell to me, hell on earth at least.

=TB

TomBrooklyn
11-24-2002, 04:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> That is what I feel also. Do your thing, and the end will take its course.<hr /></blockquote>More like: If you do that thing, your course will be in the end.

bluewolf
11-24-2002, 06:18 AM
This is not black and white. I have talked to loads (tntc) of gay people, men and women. Some made a conscious choice, some were born that way.

blu

TomBrooklyn
11-24-2002, 07:17 AM
blu,

Do you think everyone openly admits to others why they are a certain way? Not only in their sexual preference; but in many aspects of their life, especially the things that are most personal and troubling.

You tend to be very open, but how many other people are that candid?

Furthur, do you think everyone even fully understands why they are the way they are?

=TB

Ludba
11-24-2002, 01:11 PM
"Do you think everyone openly admits to others why they are a certain way?"

I think people have the natural inclination to tell others what's on their minds. This is from my personal experience talking with people. It's one of those psychological needs to get things off your chest. But at the same time, they don't want to be rejected or ridiculed. It's sort of like being lost in a jungle: you want to eat to survive, but you don't want to die from eating something poisonous. Some people decide to eat very little; others decide that eating something bad is better than eating nothing good.

I think that if you give somebody enough of your time and sincere curiosity, they'll tell more about themselves than you ever believed possible. But if it's a matter of telling a roomfull of people that you're different in some way, most people would refrain. It either sets them back socially or serves no purpose at all.

On the other side of that, most people give away clues of who they are constantly. It's easy to act different than you are for a short while, but incredibly difficult to maintain a constant image of something you are not. In this way, people are naturally honest, though they may not mean to be.

eg8r
11-24-2002, 07:30 PM
[ QUOTE ]


Quote eg8r:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is what I feel also. Do your thing, and the end will take its course.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

More like: If you do that thing, your course will be in the end. <hr /></blockquote>

What the heck does your reply mean? Is the sentence missing a word or something. Anyways, a clear way of saying what I said was, Do your thing, and what happens..happens. There is not more than that. This thread is not changing anyones views, so we will just see what happens when we all die.

eg8r

HOWARD
11-29-2002, 01:38 PM
As my Mom use to say - you will be very surprised on some of
the people you meet in heaven.

And you will be totally shocked in some of the people you meet in hell should it go the other way.

Howard

11-29-2002, 11:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr>I believe in aliens.
I believe in other dimensions.
I believe in the paranormal.
I believe in x files.
I believe in visions.<hr /></blockquote>How about miracles? Do you believe in miracles? http://www.parthina.net/Music/ibelieveinmiracleshotchocolate.mp3

TomBrooklyn
04-12-2003, 10:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> Does this mean the male homosexual should cut off his ####? <hr /></blockquote>Bishop Creighton said "The real object of education is to have a man in the condition of continually asking questions." It will take a more learned scholar than myself to be sure if the Bible advocates penilectomys; but the truth may likely be found through sufficient study and insight. For instance:

**********

This guy walks into a bar and two steps in, he realizes it's a gay bar. "But what the heck," he says, "I really want a drink."

When the waiter approaches, he says to the customer, "What's the name of your penis?"

The customer says, "Look, I'm not into any of that. All I want is a drink."

The gay waiter says, "I'm sorry Sir, but I can't serve you until you tell me the name of your penis. Mine for instance is called 'NIKE,' for the slogan, 'Just Do It.' That guy down at the end of the bar calls his "SNICKERS,' because 'It really Satisfies."

The customer looks dumbfounded so the bartender tells him he will give him a second to think it over. The customer asks the man sitting to his left, who is sipping on a beer, "Hey bud, what's the name of your penis?"

The man looks back and says with a smile, "TIMEX."

The thirsty customer asks, "Why Timex?"

The fella proudly replies, "Because it takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'!"

A little shaken, the customer turns to the fella on his right, who is sipping a fruity Margarita and says, "So, what do you call your penis?"

The man turns to him and proudly exclaims, "FORD, because 'Quality is Job 1'." Then he adds, "Have you driven a Ford, lately?"

Even more shaken, the customer has to think for a moment before he comes up with a name. Finally, he turns to the bartender and exclaims, "The name of my penis is 'SECRET!' Now give me a beer."

The bartender begins to pour the customer a beer, but with a curious look asks, "Why SECRET?"

The customer says, "Because it's Strong Enough For A Man, But Made For A Women!"

bluewolf
04-12-2003, 11:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SlimJim:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr>I believe in aliens.
I believe in other dimensions.
I believe in the paranormal.
I believe in x files.
I believe in visions.<hr /></blockquote>How about miracles? Do you believe in miracles? <hr /></blockquote>

Of course sj, you know I was being funny. Yes I believe that miracles happen. But, what do you define as a miracle.

What about my friend who was a devout christian and had cancer of the uterus? Many prayed and when the doc cut her open, the cancer was gone.

What about the individual who receives some medical procedure which is successful, while others who received the same procedure died?

What about my dad who laid in ccu on a vent for many months but yet walked out of the hospital while younger, healthier people died?

What about the blind person who is amazingly restored to sight after going to a healer,christian or otherwise?

And then where do God type miracles end and medical miracles begin? What about the human will? The mind is a powerful thing. They say we have only tapped 10%.

And how does one differentiate a real miracle from a fake?

The questions are endless and so I do expect are the answers.

SO I believe in the God of my religious choice, and visions, and aliens and miracles and as to things not mentioned, I try to listen to the beliefs of others and be respectful. This often leads to interesting conversation.

As to whether a person can be gay and be christian, I do not know that answer. I do not judge that. "Only the Lord knows for sure".

Laura

04-18-2003, 11:34 PM
Yes, you can follow my path and be gay. Let me tell you fellows a little secret, the bible is nothing more than a piece of satire. Jesus Christ loves people, of all ethnicities, genders and sexualities. Jesus Christ is not one to discriminate...

Amen
Jesus Christ

Candyman
04-21-2003, 01:09 PM
I doubt if God has a list where sins are rated from 1-10. Gods son was the only man ever to live who was without sin. Meaning we are all sinners. Romans 10:13 "Everone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved". That verse is pretty clear to me. Candyman

bluewolf
04-21-2003, 01:54 PM
There are verses in the Bible that support the opposing point of view, so do not wish to go into all of that.

All that I will say is what I believe. Yes, I believe a gay person can come to Christ. What happens after that is between that person and God.

Laura

nhp
11-25-2003, 09:35 AM
The problem with questions like these, is that many devout Christians sin themselves when this is brought to mind. I know of many Christians who condemn homosexuals, yet at the same time forget that God said "Judge not lest ye be judged". I don't understand why so many people care about this at all. It is other people's lifestyles, why budge in? Some people look at me strange because I am white and my girlfriend is Asian. So what? We both like each other, that's all there is to it.

eg8r
11-25-2003, 09:44 AM
[ QUOTE ]
So what? We both like each other, that's all there is to it. <hr /></blockquote> I believe this is a little more than "liking" each other. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

If you are a Christian, you believe that everyone will have their judgement day and at that point you will see what happens next.

eg8r

Sid_Vicious
11-25-2003, 10:00 AM
I have not read all of this thread, actually this is the only post I have read. My answer is unusually simple, if God makes each and every one of us from pre-conception, AND I BELIEVE THAT HE DOES, then He makes the honestly born homosexuals like he does the others of us. God makes no mistakes, and BORN gays are "what they are", some people twist off into the lifestyle out of persuasion and invironment, but the ones who are born into this world as gay are as definite as stripes on a zebra, and God loves those too. Yea, gay people have Christ's heart, it's built into the whole concept of Christianity...sid

eg8r
11-25-2003, 10:21 AM
[ QUOTE ]
makes no mistakes, and BORN gays are "what they are", <hr /></blockquote> I think this is part of a larger argument. Is someone born gay, or do they make a choice?

eg8r

Qtec
11-25-2003, 11:11 AM
Why would anyone CHOOSE to be gay?

Being a hetro, do you think you could have a sexual relationship with another man? Of course not. I cant ever remember when I was a teenager ever deciding that I liked girls, it just happened that way. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Q

Qtec
11-25-2003, 11:19 AM
Sid,
[ QUOTE ]
if God makes each and every one of us from pre-conception, <hr /></blockquote> why babies that are born with AIDS,why babies born to crack adicted mothers,why babies that will never walk or talk or see or hear.................etc.


Q /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Sid_Vicious
11-25-2003, 11:21 AM
There's undoubtedly every born oddity in the book born, and then some, in this world, sexual parts mixed up, heads welded together, mentally illness of enormously abstract natures,,,ain't nobody going to convince me any other but to trust one thing, "God either made it perfectly to His Plan, or there ain't no God." Perfection works that way. Also, you should be aware that there is homosexuality in the animal kingdom. Tell me, do these animals choose this direction? You can argue the preference thing all you want, but just ask a mother or two about a son or daughter they have who's gay, about their kid's baby years, the normally athletic and opposite attraction years were like in these little human people. Tell me this, if God does NOT make mistakes, and yet there are obviously born gay people from the git-go, where does that leave the religious fundamentalists? What I read is that the Old Testament was full of total destruction and annihilation of entire cities under God's direct order, every child, every animal, kill everything. Now we are to be told that He is merciful and forgiving. I don't nderstand this, either God knows and knew then about His own nature and all of eternity's promises, or none of it makes sense. Did God change? Does He change now? Has He altered His thoughts a little after the Old Testament? Ponderous ain't it? If what you may imply is that these persons actually choose to take an alternative lifestyle, then I call that bunk, absolute bunk, can you imagine ANYTHING which would ever create a trend in yourself for this alteration. No, and for a born and understandable reason.

I have a question you will have no answer to I'm sure, "If you had a child who announced they were gay, would you still love them?" You would had to have had a family unit or know someone who have gone through this question first hand, knowing who and what that person gives into this world, to honestly understand the answer. Are gays born that way, some absolutely! Is there deviance, some absolutely! God made any mistakes? Well let's keep asking Him. I do, I feel He understands that I do. Mortal men wrote and revised the Bible, remember that....sid

wolfdancer
11-25-2003, 11:31 AM
The Bible contains six admonishments to homosexuals and 362 admonishments to heterosexuals. That doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals. It's just that they need more supervision Lynn Lavner - as published in PFLAG

There is hardly anyone whose sexual life, if it were broadcast, would not fill the world at large with surprise and horror.
W. Somerset Maugham (1874 - 1965)
Bisexuality immediately doubles your chances for a date on Saturday night.
Woody Allen (1935 - )
It has been proven that the pig is the only homosexual animal. As this perversion is most prevalent in pork-eating nations, it is obvious that it gets into your genes through the meat.
Tasleem Ahmed - Islamic missionary, from a Muslim mission in Galaway Ireland, first quoted in London's "Freethinker" magazine

Qtec
11-25-2003, 11:45 AM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Q

wolfdancer
11-25-2003, 11:49 AM
"having a small penis"
Tom, you mean if I reply to one of them "endowment" emails, that promise "bigger'n better...." I'll be cured????
Praise Jesus!!!!!
Hey, I see he's now posting on the CCB.

wolfdancer
11-25-2003, 11:53 AM
Fred, I would normally agree with you, but since Jesus Christ, hisself, has joined into the discussion, I think it'll be OK, this one time

Sid_Vicious
11-25-2003, 11:55 AM
I wonder about you anyway Q, you holding a chicken by it's tail feathers and "winking" both eyes seductively at the same time!!!sid~~~everything tastes like chicken, well fish sometimes maybe if you get lucky, unsweetened tea if you're REAL lucky ;-)

eg8r
11-25-2003, 12:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Also, you should be aware that there is homosexuality in the animal kingdom. Tell me, do these animals choose this direction? <hr /></blockquote> Believe me, you are not the only one with this insight, but thanks for looking out. As far as whether the animals choose this...I like to think a human's brain is a bit more advanced. I would also like to take this time to state I do not believe in the evolutionary cycle, big bang or anything else other than creation.

Even though I do not believe in evolution, has there ever been some study to show monkeys, apes or gorillas entertaining the same sex. Seems to be popular belief that we are descendants of one of these or something close.

eg8r

eg8r
11-25-2003, 12:07 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I cant ever remember when I was a teenager ever deciding that I liked girls, it just happened that way. <hr /></blockquote> I can imagine there is a lot you do not remember.

eg8r

eg8r
11-25-2003, 12:09 PM
LOL, wolfdancer, you do recognize that you are posting to thread from a year ago right? Just thought I would mention it.

eg8r

Sid_Vicious
11-25-2003, 12:10 PM
"Believe me, you are not the only one with this insight, but thanks for looking out."

So do you fight the reality of this fact with animals Ed? Just wanting clarity....sid

eg8r
11-25-2003, 12:21 PM
Am I coming across to you as fighting some fact? Did you read the rest of my post?

Here is a quote from some website (I found it fairly quickly with a generic search on google) it is a Q &amp; A type quote. [ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue"> Oftentimes during discussions with people, the topic of homosexuality is brought up. As a Catholic, I obviously oppose homosexual behavior and activity. During my "debates" with people who are pro-gay, I use all the regular Catholic arguments. Among other things, I never fail to bring up the fact that it is against nature; however, I have come across those who insist that homosexuality occurs in the wild among animals. In fact, I even found several websites that attest to this . . . What should Catholic apologists say to this?

</font color>

Off the top of my head, I would reply to them, "so what? How does a homosexual animal prove that homosexuality is 'normal' any more than a homosexual person proves it?" Animals can be born with two heads; people can be born as Siamese twins; that doesn't make either thing "normal." <hr /></blockquote>

eg8r

TomBrooklyn
11-25-2003, 02:35 PM
All normal creatures upon reaching maturity develop a natural inclination to procreate. How can someone be born with a natural inclination to be homosexual? What could cause such a thing? Is it identifiable? Can an obstetrician examine an infant and determine it's going to be gay or lesbian? If it is possible, what percentage of babies could be born like that?

Iowashark
11-25-2003, 02:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> How can someone be born with a natural inclination to be homosexual? What could cause such a thing? <hr /></blockquote>


As was stated before, how could they be born like that?....It's God's will. I don't believe people can be born like that because that's how God wants them and it's part of his plan, just like He made Jeffrey Dahmer with an appetite for people, and Michael Jackson with a fetish for little boys. His Plan, His will? Please. These people are molded into who they are by society, culture, and environment. ( Yes, the first two fall into 'environment' )

This discussion could go on for years (apparently this thread has) but it's all a matter of opinion, like evolution and the bible. Nobody can 'really' prove either...well they've come closer to proving evolution...so anything anybody has to say on either subject is bias and opinionated.

I've learned one thing in my few years on this planet. If someone wants to get into a religious debate with you, they rarely want to hear your side of the story, but rather preach theirs. Game over, nobody wins. Just my 2 cents.

~~Dave

Sid_Vicious
11-25-2003, 05:41 PM
Can an obstetrician examine an infant and determine it's going to be gay or lesbian?


With genome mapping complete now, I expect that they will, in time...sid

nhp
11-26-2003, 07:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
So what? We both like each other, that's all there is to it. <hr /></blockquote> I believe this is a little more than "liking" each other. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

If you are a Christian, you believe that everyone will have their judgement day and at that point you will see what happens next.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

How is there more to it than two persons liking each other? I like my girlfriend, she likes me. A homosexual likes another homosexual, same thing. Only problem here is that homosexuals can't reproduce. It sounds more to me that an evolutionist would be more likely to judge homosexuals, since being unable to produce puts you in the category of species that cannot survive because of natural selection.

I personally believe in God, and Jesus. I am a very moral person. I choose not to be a member of any organized religion, because from every different church or faith, all I see is people judging each other. I was raised as a Roman Catholic, and when I was in my teens, my best friend at the time was a member of a Korean Christian church group. One of the pastors had asked me if I was Christian, and I replied no, and told him I was Catholic. He told me that many Catholics misinterpret the bible. I told him, 'hey, that's funny, because most Catholics say the same thing about Christians'. Soon after I started learning how most organized religions have a hidden hatred for Jews, and Islamic extremists seem to hate everyone. It was after learning that I declared upon myself to never be a member of any type of organized religion, yet still have faith in God.

What does this have to do with the subject of homosexuality? In my opinion, if every religion thinks every other religion is wrong, how can any religion be right? What with all of these people passing judgements left and right, I don't want to be a part of it. Live your own life, don't judge other people. I guess I answered my own question which was 'why does everyone care?'- simple, the more you are able to judge a person as being wrong, the more you feel 'right', forgetting about your own wrongdoings in life. It's kind of like a drug, it temporarily relieves the pain, or in this case, guilt.

eg8r
11-26-2003, 07:51 AM
[ QUOTE ]
How is there more to it than two persons liking each other? I like my girlfriend, she likes me. A homosexual likes another homosexual, same thing. <hr /></blockquote> I was referring to being homosexual. It takes more than just "liking" someone.

[ QUOTE ]
What does this have to do with the subject of homosexuality? <hr /></blockquote> Did you even bother to read the subject heading for this thread. Geesh!!!!

[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, if every religion thinks every other religion is wrong, how can any religion be right? <hr /></blockquote> If you are Catholic, Christian or whatever label you choose, if you believe in God and believe the Bible is his word, then I would recommend you follow that. You do not have to follow a religion per se, just the Bible. In that Bible you will probably be able to find with a simple search some references to homosexuality.

eg8r

Fred Agnir
11-26-2003, 09:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Iowashark:</font><hr>
I've learned one thing in my few years on this planet. If someone wants to get into a religious debate with you, they rarely want to hear your side of the story, but rather preach theirs. Game over, nobody wins. Just my 2 cents.

~~Dave <hr /></blockquote>That's pretty much the same with any debate. But, certainly it gets more heated with religion and politics. That's one reason it's normal netiquette to avoid those types of discussions in non-political and non-religious forums.

Fred &lt;~~~ thinks this thread can't be anything but hurtful

11-26-2003, 01:26 PM
[ QUOTE ]
As far as whether the animals choose this...I like to think a human's brain is a bit more advanced.<hr /></blockquote>

You consistently prove that this isn't the case.

[ QUOTE ]
Even though I do not believe in evolution, has there ever been some study to show monkeys, apes or gorillas entertaining the same sex. <hr /></blockquote>

Place a webcam in your bedroom and perhaps the answer will be found.

bluewolf
11-26-2003, 05:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> I think this is part of a larger argument. Is someone born gay, or do they make a choice?

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

IMO, It happens both ways.

As far as Christianity goes, the reference cited against being gay and christian was written by the apostle Paul. In this reference he list 11-12 groups of people who wont inherit the kingdom of God. So why are all of these people running around focusing on homosexuality , when 10 other groups were mentioned? I see hate, anger, bigotry in many of these. In spite of the fact that I do believe the Bible, I feel many are acting out their own dysfunctions to justify their horrible behavior.Believing in love is one thing but the last I checked bigotry was wrong and being judgmental is also a 'sin'.

IMO, Christ is about love. If someone is following the Christ I believe in, they are not thumping any particular group with condemnation and damnation. I have a real issue with someone like this, and feel that they are a disgrace to the religion of Christianity and of course there are others just like them in other religions too.

While others were damning gays, I was torn between my belief in the Bible and my love for my friends. It is something I dont ever expect to have peace about.

What does a person have to give up to be a christian? Depends on the person and what their life was like before. Remember there is only one reference to this and many others are mentioned too.

Laura

TomBrooklyn
11-26-2003, 06:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> ...the reference cited against being gay and Christian was written by the apostle Paul. In this reference he list 11-12 groups of people who wont inherit the kingdom of God. So why are all of these people focusing on homosexuality , when 10 other groups were mentioned? <hr /></blockquote>Generally, each group can be discussed in separate threads to facilitate a more focused discussion. Anything to do with sex often generates the most interest, however. TomBk

eg8r
11-28-2003, 11:06 AM
Since you quoted me for your post, and the general gist of your post is about one person being judgemental of another actions, I was just wondering why you chose my quote to insert? Did you find something judgemental when you read it? Without reading all the old crap, I don't think anyone is being judgemental. I guess this is the gist of your post, just had me confused!!

[ QUOTE ]
What does a person have to give up to be a christian? <hr /></blockquote> Yourself. I feel if you are a Christian and serious about it, then you are going to continue to try and not do the things you are asked not to do. Sure God is a loving God, however that does not mean you can do whatever you want to and get away with it forever. When asking for forgiveness of your sins, you are supposed to quit doing them. If you are living a homosexual lifestyle, then it is impossible to ask for forgiveness and really mean it.

This goes for everything, not just homosexuality, but this particular thread's subject is homosexuality, so it would be odd not to address that in a reply.

eg8r

TomBrooklyn
01-11-2004, 07:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>it's normal netiquette to avoid those types of discussions in non-political and non-religious forums.<hr /></blockquote>OK, take it to The Christian Pool Players Main Forum (http://www.billiards-pool.net/modules/newbb/viewforum.php?forum=12&amp;30)

I hope you don't mind Fred, that I've taken the liberty of referring to your advisement to redirect this other post (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=suggestions&amp;Number=117 946&amp;page=0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=93&amp;vc=1) in response to a spiritual issue to the same forum.

bluewolf
01-12-2004, 06:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>it's normal netiquette to avoid those types of discussions in non-political and non-religious forums.<hr /></blockquote>OK, take it to The Christian Pool Players Main Forum (http://www.billiards-pool.net/modules/newbb/viewforum.php?forum=12&amp;30)

<font color="blue"> I think that this topic was discussed already on the Christian Pool Players forum.

Laura</font color>

SpiderMan
01-15-2004, 12:56 PM
What did they conclude on that forum? BTW, Catholic priests are Christians. Should Michael Jackson get ordained? /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

SpiderMan

UWPoolGod
01-15-2004, 01:19 PM
Yeah he should...then he wouldn't get in trouble for going after little boys...the church would. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

BlindPlayer
04-05-2005, 09:25 AM
I'm a former Pastor in a mega church with 17 pastors. This has always and will continue to be a touchy subject. There's a lot of truth already written in this - no need me to add more. Except....

We all have our Achilles' Heel. Our job as Christians is to grow in maturity and be conformed to the image of Christ. Regardless of our weakness we are all in the same boat with the Apostles.

My 2c worth.

BlindPlayer
04-05-2005, 09:35 AM
As a former pastor in a mega church of 17 pastors this comes up often. It is and always will be a touchy subject.

We all have our Achilles' Heel - yes, even me. But our responsibility as believers is to mature and become more like Christ.

We all face the same challenge regardless of our particular weaknesses.

My2cWorth

BlindPlayer
04-05-2005, 09:59 AM
We all have our "Achilles' Heel". It is our responsibility as Believers to mature and be transformed into the image of Christ. Why? To have a greater impact to those around us who need the Saviour - saved or unsaved.

BlindPlayer
04-05-2005, 10:03 AM
Sorry about the multiple posts!? I didn't see it come up so I reiterated it (is that a $60 word?).

For those interested on a new thought on the Virgin Birth of Christ I'm starting a new post in Non-Pool related section.

I debated "Right to Life" at Vassar College in NY and while studying for it I learned something that "may" play a factor in Christ's Birth.

SPetty
04-05-2005, 10:55 AM
BlindPlayer,

FYI - if you're new to forum life, please recognize that many (not all) posters feel it's inappropriate to bring back old long threads by posting to them. After threads are "gone" for awhile, it's O.K. to start a new one on the same topic.

Also, there's a forum that you might like, but I'm guessing you already know about it, that's associated with www.billiard-pool.net (http://www.billiard-pool.net), which is Fast Larry's hangout. They have a Christian specific forum that you can discuss these things with folks that might care more than "normal".

http://www.poolchat.net/modules/newbb/

I'm not trying to chase you away - just trying to help.

Deeman2
04-05-2005, 01:00 PM
This is a tough topic as Christians, we are not to judge. I don't like homosexuality as a life style but don't condemn it as I have enough moats in my own eyes.

An interesting point from a scientific standpoint. you would think, if evolution were true, that homosexuals would be at a tremendous reproductive disadvantage and would eventually mutate out of homosapians.

I see this as an illness so we don't punish ill people.

hondo
04-06-2005, 05:41 AM
This is easy. Give your life over to Christ, truly.
He will change you if it is his will. If you don't
change, don't worry about it. God understands.
God is a living, compassionate God who understands
your nature and what is in your heart.

quote=eg8r] I would have to say the homosexuality is pretty clear. I don't think "man lay with man" leaves anything to the imagination or false interpretation.

eg8r

<hr /></blockquote>

hondo
04-06-2005, 06:11 AM
Yes, Fred. Let's all moonwalk our little butts over
to Fast Larry's forum. He has a spot for this.


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bigbro6060:</font><hr> if there's one thing which is very clear in the bible, it's that homosexuality is wrong and is a sin

so can a person be a christian and be gay ? <hr /></blockquote>
It's normally frowned down upon to discuss religious opinions on forums. Regardless if it's a "No Particular Topic" forum.

Fred &lt;~~~ trying to stave off something bad <hr /></blockquote>

hondo
04-06-2005, 06:15 AM
Tom, obviously Rackmup is a Mormon.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote rackmup:</font><hr>Without mentioning the particular religion, one depicts God standing among men clad in Roman Gladiator attire when He visited the Americas. No depiction of the American Indians. Just Roman Gladiators.<hr /></blockquote>When and where did The Great Almighty purportedly visit our American shores? Why wasn't I notified?

I can't comment on the gladiators without knowing more about the story. Why won't you name the religion? Are they trying to keep a low profile?

=TB
<hr /></blockquote>

hondo
04-06-2005, 06:25 AM
Me too, Blue!


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> well i believe in the bible, that is i interpret it the best i can,being a mere mortal.
I believe in aliens.
I believe many were born gay and did not choose.
I believe in other dimensions.
I believe in anything paranormal.
The x files.
Visions.
and Pool.

blu

<hr /></blockquote>

hondo
04-06-2005, 06:31 AM
Finally, the voice of reason. It's about time you
jumped into this discussion, JC.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jesus:</font><hr> Yes, you can follow my path and be gay. Let me tell you fellows a little secret, the bible is nothing more than a piece of satire. Jesus Christ loves people, of all ethnicities, genders and sexualities. Jesus Christ is not one to discriminate...

Amen
Jesus Christ
<hr /></blockquote>

TomBrooklyn
04-06-2005, 09:11 PM
I would say that a gay person would be hard pressed to justify his sexual preference in the context of traditional Christianity as laid out in the Bible. But some more important questions might be...

Ought he care what the Bible says about it?

Ought he care what the Bible says about anything?

Is the Bible meant to be taken literally or is it a text contextual to the time it was written, metaphorical in nature, and based largely on the knowledge of the world that existed at that time?

What is the purpose of being a Christian?

Is it mandatory to be a Christian to be happy, to be successful, to go to heaven?

Is there anywhere to go to find heaven's bliss? The Bible says heaven is within you.

SecaucusFats
04-06-2005, 11:32 PM
As an agnostic I hold steadfast to the belief that the existence of God, gods, or deities is both unknown and inherently unknowable, I am unconvinced and noncommittal as to deities, and religion itself. In my view statements or beliefs about the numinous cannot be justified, because they cannot be proven.

While I personally feel that homosexuality is immoral because it goes against nature, I cannot conceive of a deity that would sentence homosexuals to an eternity of suffering, in fact I cannot conceive of a deity that would sentence anyone to such a fate regardless of the nature of the offense.

Who are we to presume to know the mind of the supreme (if such a being exists at all)? There are much worse and evil things than being gay.

I think gays can be Christians if they choose to be, and that it is up to God, not man, to judge them. The man called Jesus reached out to harlots, thieves and all manner of sinners. Who are we to presume to know who, or whom, are fit to enter into his graces? (Assuming that Christians are correct in their beliefs, and they may or may not be.)

In any case, if God exist, and if God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, then it stands to reason that gays exist because he / she / it wants them to exist. So who are we to question the will of the divine?