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rackmup
11-25-2002, 03:35 PM
So it's league night and you're on one of those teams that has eight players but only five can play. To make matters even worse, it's a handicapped league and your team has three "6's" and you know only two of them are going to be able to play and one will have to sit it out. It gets better: You are one of those "6's".

You played last week and won your match while the Captain of your team sat and watched. You know he doesn't like sitting because he believes in his heart he is the strongest of "Club 6". The other members of this club might believe otherwise but it doesn't matter because he is the Captain and you know he isn't going to lounge on the rail two weeks in a row.

As the newest member and newest inductee into "Club 6" of this team, I believe I will be the one to sit. That's okay with me. I'll go to the room anyway, play on the practice tables with my teammates and then take my probable place on the bench and cheer on my teammates.

When this happens to you, what do you do?
Do you get silently angry that you won't be playing or do you just look on and say "No problem"?
How do you feel?
Let's assume you are a stronger player than another of the same skill level on your team. Does that make you question your Captain's decision-making abilities if he plays the "weaker" player instead of you?
Do you mind sitting or do you think you should play every week?
Hey, If you are the "Team Horse", shouldn't you play every week? Or do you lead through example by showing you too, have to sit now and then?
If you knew ahead of time that you weren't going to be on the night's playing roster, would you stay home?
Is that being a "poor sport"? How does it make you feel when a teammate stays home because he/she isn't playing that night and knew it ahead of time?

On another league situation: You are finished with your matches but two of your teammates haven't even played yet. You are tired. Do you leave the room, wishing your teammates "good luck" as you stroll out the door or do you stay and root them on just as they did for you?

These are all topics that confront us as league players. Remember, league play is "Team Play". Are you a TEAMMATE or just a name on the roster.

Regards,

Ken

Fred Agnir
11-25-2002, 03:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rackmup:</font><hr>
When this happens to you, what do you do?
Do you get silently angry that you won't be playing or do you just look on and say "No problem"? <hr /></blockquote>
Every team I've ever been on I've told them that they can sit me even if I show up and that they should never have to apologize for sitting me. The team captain makes the choices. If I don't like it, I can get off the team. It's his/her call. Always.

That being said, I'd like every member of my team to make an effort to come, watch, and support the team, even if they know they won't be playing. The team and the individual benefit. The worst thing about leagues that play the APA format is that some people will sit around all night just to find out at the very last match that they won't be playing, and they storm off rather than stay. I know that's tough, and we all want to play, but if you're not in it to be on a team, then team pool might not be for you (generally speaking).

Fred &lt;~~~ just one man's way of thinking

11-25-2002, 03:53 PM
we've got 8 players on my tues night league team and we play 5. i always show whether i'm scheduled to play or not. partly it's a team spirit thing and partly it's just in case someone else fails to show. usually, if i'm not scheduled to play i'll let the league operator know i'm available to sub. usually wind up playing. besides, there's action after league too.

dan

11-25-2002, 04:16 PM
After reading your choices I find that I am to depressed to respond to the questions. I am team captain and this last session I played just 4 times. I formed my own team so I could play when I wanted to but the eager look on the faces of everybody else usually causes me to play them. I'm trying something new for this next session, I'm setting in front of the mirror practicing my "eager look". I'm hoping someone will say "Oh no Ron, you play instead!"

Rich R.
11-25-2002, 04:43 PM
The fact that you have 8 players and only 5 can play should tell you that you will not play every week. I believe it is up to the team captain to alternate who plays and who doesn't. Remember, by the APA rules, all team members need to play a minimum number of matches to qualify for the playoffs.
Personally, I have told my team captain to never be sorry if he has to play some one instead of me. As you, I am one of three SL-6 players on my team and only two of us can play. I have absolutely no problem taking my turn as the non-player. I have to give a lot of credit to my captain, as he is very fair when it comes to deciding who plays.
I show up every week that I possibly can. I feel I would let my teammates down, if I were not there. I believe the captain can field better match ups, when all team members are present.
I do have to confess, I rarely stay until the last match is finished. For unknown reasons, our matches usually run quite late and my alarm goes off at 4 a.m. Normally, I don't get much more than 4 hours sleep on league night.
To balance out leaving early, I make sure I am always there early, warmed up, and ready to play the first match, if needed. Some of my teamates have a hard time getting there on time, and arrive late. I believe this situation balances itself.

dddd
11-25-2002, 10:28 PM
putting the team together will take some time i feel it could take several sessions, to find the right mix,
to find the players that fit to your needs.
also it will take some time to allow the players to fall into their roles on the team.

play everyone yes of course.

but you need to balance the players desires with the teams needs. the team needs to be first, and that can at times require the stronger players to play more often.

i dont care if i play, i will obviously play the minimum as does everyone else.

you want to allow yourself to play your weaker players against a opponent that they can play and compete against, sometimes you cannot do that.

i feel it should be a one captian and he alone decides the issue of playing or not. he should not feel guilty or the need to play someone other than the right person for that time in the match.
he has a large burden,
he has the requirement of knowing and playing personel properly.
this is hard, and being a "good" captian is not for everyone.
he needs to play the right person for the suitation.
there are so many different suitations.

bigbro6060
11-25-2002, 10:45 PM
In all leagues i have ever played in (and i don't mean just Pool, i mean also Tennis, Indoor soccer etc etc), it's find to have a pool (um ok let's use the word roster) of players to choose from, but for any particular night, only the players selected turn up ! i couldn't imagine turning up and NOT playing, that would suck ! For my indoor soccer team, we had 10 players on the list, only 7 played each week. It wasn't usually a problem because there was always 1 or 2 people on the team with other committments on that night and another who was happy not to play but they wouldn't have liked getting ready, bringing their kit then being told they weren't playing. It was all worked out by at least the day before

11-25-2002, 11:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rackmup:</font><hr> So it's league night and you're on one of those teams that has eight players but only five can play. To make matters even worse, it's a handicapped league and your team has three "6's" and you know only two of them are going to be able to play and one will have to sit it out. It gets better: You are one of those "6's".

You played last week and won your match while the Captain of your team sat and watched. You know he doesn't like sitting because he believes in his heart he is the strongest of "Club 6". The other members of this club might believe otherwise but it doesn't matter because he is the Captain and you know he isn't going to lounge on the rail two weeks in a row.

As the newest member and newest inductee into "Club 6" of this team, I believe I will be the one to sit. That's okay with me. I'll go to the room anyway, play on the practice tables with my teammates and then take my probable place on the bench and cheer on my teammates.

When this happens to you, what do you do?
Do you get silently angry that you won't be playing or do you just look on and say "No problem"?
How do you feel?
Let's assume you are a stronger player than another of the same skill level on your team. Does that make you question your Captain's decision-making abilities if he plays the "weaker" player instead of you?
Do you mind sitting or do you think you should play every week?
Hey, If you are the "Team Horse", shouldn't you play every week? Or do you lead through example by showing you too, have to sit now and then?
If you knew ahead of time that you weren't going to be on the night's playing roster, would you stay home?
Is that being a "poor sport"? How does it make you feel when a teammate stays home because he/she isn't playing that night and knew it ahead of time?

On another league situation: You are finished with your matches but two of your teammates haven't even played yet. You are tired. Do you leave the room, wishing your teammates "good luck" as you stroll out the door or do you stay and root them on just as they did for you?

These are all topics that confront us as league players. Remember, league play is "Team Play". Are you a TEAMMATE or just a name on the roster.

Regards,

Ken <hr /></blockquote>

We have 7 players, and we only usually play 5. Usually the strongest players play. I tell them I'll sit down any time they want me to, and I'll still show up to show support.. but I'm one of the strongest players, so even if I wanted to sit out, they wouldn't want me to.

However, I would be MORE than willing to sit out and enjoy just watching, and rooting for my team. Sometimes I enjoy the stress-free environment of the sidelines. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

OnePocketChamp
11-25-2002, 11:41 PM
Tonight at APA league "Club 6" lost a member an unmentioned player dropped to our "Club 5". I also have repeated told my Captain that when he wants me to sit I will be more than happy to do so, as that is what a teammate should do. There is no I in team and that is a code I have always tried to live by. Now should any one need to know the name of the new "Club 5" player, just PM me as I refuse to make it a public annoucement.

stickman
11-26-2002, 12:13 AM
I sit out sometimes and it's okay. It sounds like you might sit out more than me though. I would be disappointed not to play, if we needed a win and a lessor player played, but I wouldn't get angry. If I'm not playing I still show up. I practice my non participating teamates on another table, congratulate my teamates that win, and console my teamates that loose. If I don't play, I still enjoy playing my teamates. I always stay until it's all over.

To me, league play is all about fun, not that I don't play seriously, because I do, but if it weren't fun I wouldn't do it. Lucky for me, both my 8ball team and 9ball team has players that I like and get along well with. No one gets down about a loss, and we all encourage each other. I've played on teams that weren't fun, and I wouldn't play with them the next session.

rackmup
11-26-2002, 12:15 AM
No need to send OPC an message. It was me. But perhaps someone out there can explain this:

I just joined this APA team last week (they are several weeks into the season.) I started as SL-6 as that is what I was rated by the APA in Phoenix, AZ.

Last week, I'm playing against a SL-5. I have to go to 5 wins, he only to 4. He has me down 3-1 and I put together a 4-game rally to beat him (including one break and run.)

Tonight, the score sheet has me listed as a SL-5. My question is:

Why did I drop one skill level? The "innings" from last week worked out to an average of 3.5 per game played.

Regards,

Ken (amazed that OPC didn't brag about his performance tonight.)

rackmup
11-26-2002, 12:17 AM
I don't mind sitting. I Captained an APA team to three session first places in Phoenix and sat quite often. The questions were meant to arouse the opinions of other league players.

Regards,

Ken (would rather play than sit but will sit without complaint)

Perk
11-26-2002, 07:38 AM
It was stated earlier, but one thing that I think is important is: The captain while putting together the team should either set goals for the team where everything is stated in the beginning. For example, in our area it isnt a reasonable goal to "go to vegas". Winning our local area is reasonable. So we just play with a basic team of 5 with 3 being pretty much alternates. Knowing there roles.

Ken,,,if your team is to high stacked, start missin some timely balls to bring your rating down while yet winning games. Then they will almost have to play you. Not that anyone does anything like that.

Fred Agnir
11-26-2002, 07:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rackmup:</font><hr> No need to send OPC an message. It was me. But perhaps someone out there can explain this:

I just joined this APA team last week (they are several weeks into the season.) I started as SL-6 as that is what I was rated by the APA in Phoenix, AZ.

Last week, I'm playing against a SL-5. I have to go to 5 wins, he only to 4. He has me down 3-1 and I put together a 4-game rally to beat him (including one break and run.)

Tonight, the score sheet has me listed as a SL-5. My question is:

Why did I drop one skill level<hr /></blockquote>
I'm going to post as if I know the answer, but really I don't. I'm just guessing. With that in mind:

What you described has happened to me every time I switched divisions. And I mean every time. It's the lowest attainable rule, I believe. You used your last handicap assuming that it is what you'd play at. However, when I moved from one state to another, I played as an Sl-7, dominated the first match, and they still dropped me to an SL-6. I moved from one division to another, same thing. Moved back to Massachusetts, same thing. Assumed an SL-7, and they dropped me to an SL-6 even though I won my match.

I think they take your lowest attainable from the National Headquarters, and go from there. Your previous scores from Phoenix don't follow you from your previous LO. That's my theory.

Your lowest attainable was an SL-5, so you've got 10 (or however many the APA uses these days) SL-5 scores (I assume) filling your stack.

The other possibility is that they played you like a new player, without bothering to do an APA check. I assume you clearly showed your current APA ID#.

And remember: the pertinent ratio isn't innings per game. It's (total innings - defensive innings)/# of wins.

Fred

Wally_in_Cincy
11-26-2002, 08:22 AM
Unfortunately this is one of the few aspects of pool of which I have much experience /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rackmup:</font><hr>

When this happens to you, what do you do?
Do you get silently angry that you won't be playing or do you just look on and say "No problem"?
<hr /></blockquote>

You have to say "No problem". If you play this format it comes with the territory.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rackmup:</font><hr>
How do you feel?
Let's assume you are a stronger player than another of the same skill level on your team. Does that make you question your Captain's decision-making abilities if he plays the "weaker" player instead of you?
<hr /></blockquote>

The captain has to give evrybody a chance to play. Otherwise they won't have the confidence or experience needed in the playoffs.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rackmup:</font><hr>
Do you mind sitting or do you think you should play every week?
Hey, If you are the "Team Horse", shouldn't you play every week? Or do you lead through example by showing you too, have to sit now and then?
<hr /></blockquote>

The "team horse" will emerge. It's often a different player each session. A smart captain will go with the "hot hand". If he doesn't, yes, you have a right to be upset. But I don't think anybody should play every week. Makes for bad team chemistry. Besides if they win every week their handicap will go up (unfortunately).

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rackmup:</font><hr>
If you knew ahead of time that you weren't going to be on the night's playing roster, would you stay home?
<hr /></blockquote>

No. There's been about a dozen times when I knew I wasn't going to play. Out of those I ended up playing at least 10 times /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rackmup:</font><hr>

How does it make you feel when a teammate stays home because he/she isn't playing that night and knew it ahead of time?
<hr /></blockquote>

I don't particularly like it,especially if he/she is the current "team horse", but it does give me a better chance to play /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rackmup:</font><hr>
On another league situation: You are finished with your matches but two of your teammates haven't even played yet. You are tired. Do you leave the room, wishing your teammates "good luck" as you stroll out the door or do you stay and root them on just as they did for you?
<hr /></blockquote>

On the teams I play on it's not considered bad form to leave once the last match starts. We all understand "alarm clock hell"

Kato
11-26-2002, 08:30 AM
Ken, when I played APA and was a team captain I sat myself 90% of the time. Now I play a league with a BCA type format and I still sit myself as only 5 people can play. Phil from SoFla asks and I offer to sit. Doesn't matter how I'm playing. I think it's better to let the other guys have at it.

KatO~~~~ALWAYS SHOWS UP!!!!!!!

11-26-2002, 12:52 PM
I am one of those players that sits out alot. I stayed home one day because of personal business. Other than that I have been there to support my team members. Now it is down to where they have to play me because the season is almost over and I have not yet qualified. I now feel like a burden on my team, because, they have to play me. I personally felt pressure or the urgency to play in our last match. So I was somewhat upset they did'nt play me. Anyway I was consoled by other team members, and assured them that it did'nt matter. Then I was told that I had an additude and wasnt a team player. The whole scenerio has basicly taken the fun out of participating in APA league.

stickman
11-26-2002, 01:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cue_T:</font><hr> I am one of those players that sits out alot. I stayed home one day because of personal business. Other than that I have been there to support my team members. Now it is down to where they have to play me because the season is almost over and I have not yet qualified. I now feel like a burden on my team, because, they have to play me. I personally felt pressure or the urgency to play in our last match. So I was somewhat upset they did'nt play me. Anyway I was consoled by other team members, and assured them that it did'nt matter. Then I was told that I had an additude and wasnt a team player. The whole scenerio has basicly taken the fun out of participating in APA league. <hr /></blockquote>

Don't give up on APA. I've played on a lot of different teams and found they are all different. Find another team next session. I've found that there are some teams that personalities don't mesh, some that are all about winning, including encouraging sandbagging /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif, and some are just fun. The teams that I've been fortunate enough to play on that were all about fun, have had good team chemistry, and we've been very successful also.

Mr Ingrate
11-26-2002, 01:18 PM
Hi Kato,

I play in a handicap BCA league in Victoria, BC with an interesting format. At first I thought it was a bit crazy, but now I like it.

All matches are single games with the winner getting 10 points and the loser getting 1 point for each ball he makes. An individualís handicap is calculated by dividing his total points to date by the number of games played. The handicap changes from week to week. If you don't have at least 7 games played you are assigned a handicap of 8.

The score sheet grid is set up for 5 players and 7 rounds. Two tables are always used. Each player on one team, plays each player on the other team. If there are no substitutions, you could play two of the other teamís players twice. However, substitutions are allowed. A player may replace another player at any time during the match for one of more games. However, the sub may only replace one starting player. For example, If I go in as a sub for player A, I cannot sub for player B. It is acceptable to take out the sub and put the starting player back in and then take out the starting player and put the sub back in Ö but it must be the same sub. Theoretically, you could have 10 players on a team with 5 starting players and 5 subs. However, teams are limited to 8 players and only 7 can play on any given evening. Players deemed to be BCA masters have their handicap fixed at 10.

Another interesting twist is that you cannot play two more master players than the other team. We have no master players on our team and when we play a team with two master players they must sit one out or have one substitute for the other.

The handicap is calculated on a round by round basis by totaling the handicaps of player in the round. The team with the lower handicap total gets the difference added to their round score. The handicap could change when subs are brought in.

You are NOT required to bring in substitutes, however, on our team, we always bring in the subs. The good part of this is, the least number of games you play in an evening is usually 3 with the most being 7. Our Captain, who is arguably our best player and a good guy, usually sets himself up as one of the subs.

11-26-2002, 01:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cue_T:</font><hr> I am one of those players that sits out alot. I stayed home one day because of personal business. Other than that I have been there to support my team members. Now it is down to where they have to play me because the season is almost over and I have not yet qualified. I now feel like a burden on my team, because, they have to play me. I personally felt pressure or the urgency to play in our last match. So I was somewhat upset they did'nt play me. Anyway I was consoled by other team members, and assured them that it did'nt matter. Then I was told that I had an additude and wasnt a team player. The whole scenerio has basicly taken the fun out of participating in APA league. <hr /></blockquote>

if i understand the theory of the apa, it's to ensure that beginning players can participate in a reasonably fair and fun environment. that being said, i can't see why your capt. got himself in the box of having a player not participate till the end-deadline. sounds like some kind of personal chemistry issue and you're probably better served shopping for a new team.

dan

CarolNYC
11-26-2002, 01:26 PM
Hey There,
I would absolutely root my teammmates on-I wouldnt mind sitting out-sometimes teammates can use suggestions on how they could have gotten out and sitting and watching is also learning-and whether sitting or playing, the whole deal is"the Thrill of victory" when your team wins for the year.whether you played or not!:)I had a teammate who had gotten very upset with me(I was captain at time) because I did not play him much)-but boy ,was he in his glory when he received the championship trophy and his picture was put in the local paper!:)
Carol~still believes teamplay deserves alot of respect!:)

rackmup
11-26-2002, 01:26 PM
He probaly did it to keep her SL low. The thought is probably, let her play now to qualify and she shouldn't improve enough to get bumped up.

I don't agree with the strategy but that trophy is very important to some.

Cue_T...you can come play with us!

Wally_in_Cincy
11-26-2002, 01:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cue_T:</font><hr> I am one of those players that sits out alot. I stayed home one day because of personal business. Other than that I have been there to support my team members. Now it is down to where they have to play me because the season is almost over and I have not yet qualified. I now feel like a burden on my team, because, they have to play me. I personally felt pressure or the urgency to play in our last match. So I was somewhat upset they did'nt play me. Anyway I was consoled by other team members, and assured them that it did'nt matter. Then I was told that I had an additude and wasnt a team player. The whole scenerio has basicly taken the fun out of participating in APA league. <hr /></blockquote>

That's poor management on your captain's part.

We got together a team just for the summer and just for fun. The worst player on our team was a female 2. Since the session was only 6 weeks long I had to play her 4 out of 6 weeks. I'm now glad I did. Because some our handicaps went up our best lineup in the playoffs was 6,5,5,5,2 and our 2 was qualified.

Rod
11-26-2002, 01:52 PM
What I'm trying to figure out is, why are there 8 players? Most leagues I've played we only had 5 players for a 5 man team. We have had 6 but the 6th was know as a sub in case a regular couldn't make it. If we had to play with 4 one night during the regular season, then so be it. Our last team in Vegas was a 5 man team. It's just an up front understanding that you may or may not play. Personally I go to play and so did everyone else so a part time sub at best was needed. The sub understood that, so no problems.

In my case would I go if not playing, well no because if I wasn't playing it was because of something out of my control, urgent matter, very sick, etc.

If one agrees to the situation of that many players, then possibly they should show up. We all have phones and is my opinion that the team should be setteled for that day/night in advance. In reality your a sub so if your not needed you may have better use for your time. Years ago we may have had 6 or 7 on a team and it never bothered me or anyone else if a member didn't show. The players were set for that evening. If they did show that was fine too.

This league stuff can be taken to an extreme at times. Someone doesn't show and the others take it personal? Even though they know there is two extra players. Sounds kind of silly to me, kids stuff. Run what you brung, as they say in drag racing. If thats not the plan and captain wants to sub in different players during the night, then, that's another matter.

breaknrun1
11-26-2002, 03:21 PM
Ken,

Your posts sounds exactly like my situation. The last few sessions, I was the captain of an APA 8-ball team. Our team consisted of 4 6's, 1-5, 1-4, 1-3, and 1-2. The 4-6's were myself, my father, my cousin, and a lifelong family friend. My dad and myself were the two strongest players on the team even though my cousin though he was the best. In fact, he was probably the worst 6. Anyway, we would rotate between playing these combinations:
3-6's,3,2
2-6's,5,4,2
2-6's,4,3,2
This way, everyone got to play, and the 6's just rotated around. My cousin wanted to play every week, while myself, my father, and our family friend didn't care when we played. We were just they for coaching and support. Since it was a family team, we were all there every week to support our teammates. It is definately different with a team of people that you don't really know that well.

We have now split into two teams (still 3-6's on my team (all except my cousin)) to allow all of us to play more often. Nobody really complained about playing time except for the lower handicaps who had to play every week!

Your in a tough situation. Just try to even out the plays over the course of the session and try to keep everyone happy, including yourself.

Myself, I play in a Valley League with some other people to offset the times I don't play in the APA league.

Kelly

heater451
11-26-2002, 04:02 PM
As the de facto captain of a current TAP team, I hate the "25 rule" (23 in APA, I believe).

I don't mind sitting out so much, although I would rather play, but I don't like that I may have to bench a teammate, especially if he's one of the ones that drives farther to get to league. Luckily, most of them don't mind either, but it still seems like a bad way for a league to set up.

Right now, it is fortunate that we have enough spread in the handicaps to field the 'full' team (5 out of 6 players), but it seems as if the rule is there to keep a team from reaching its full potential. There doesn't seem to be a reason to have everyone progress--in fact, it makes sandbagging almost necessary! However, if forced into the situation where everyone has the same handicap, I might choose players according to who has the most/least matches played, so that it's balanced.

As for leaving early, I almost never do, since I tend to play after the matches, and it only bothers me a little, when part of the team wants to depart early (if there's nothing 'pressing', like early morning work). Mostly, I find it annoying that the ones who leave don't have to stay to score a game for another player.

In the case where only four people play (due to an absence), the team members who show are supposed to stay, as the opposing team gets to pick which player will play again, for the last match.

I do agree with Perk, in that if the whole team knows and understands how the handicaps play out (their 'roles') then no foul. . . .


===============

=k=
11-27-2002, 07:45 AM
ken as team captain, i enjoyed reading this tread. i have a team that really wants to play so we keep team to 5 (although i would really like 6 players) we don't have the too many 6's problem (it would be a nice problem) also as someone stated it is the matches after leauge play that i enjoy the most. it has been rewarding to me to watch the teams improve and have fun. k

jjinfla
11-27-2002, 08:49 AM
The SL6 is the anathema to the APA team. He is not good enough to be a SL7 and not smart enough to learn how to remain a SL5. A real team player will do what is good for the team. And becoming a SL6 in APA is not good for your team. You have to learn how to extend innings. And yes, how and when to lose games. But the SL's even out after you get 50 to 100 games in the computer until then they are subject to change pretty often. That's just the nature of statistical analysis. Once a team has more than two players who are SL6 or 7 then the team is better off breaking up and forming two new teams. And that is what our LO suggested to us. That is life in the APA and a major reason I gave it up. The team is not rewarded for striving for excellence. Imagine showing up on league night and finding out that your 3 has moved up to a 4, your two 4's are now 5's, a 5 moved up to a 6, and your 6 is a 7. so now you can only field a team of 4 players. then look at your opponent. they will get a forfeit and one of their players will have to sit out. He came to play and doesn't get to play but still has to pay the $7.00 fee. this especially sucks when you are in the last few games of the session. Have developed into a very good team and now you can't even field a team for the finals. Jake

rackmup
11-27-2002, 10:40 AM
=k=,

I'm glad you are enjoying the thread. I posted it, not to complain about how the various handicapping rules set in place (in this instance by the APA) impact me but to get feedback from others on how it impacts them.

I don't ming sitting. Sometimes, I enjoy it. I learn from watching others. All of us can for that matter.

No league format will ever be perfect to the masses. There will always be claims of 'sandbagging' as long as there is competitive spirit in the hearts of the players.

Some league players take the game as a night out with friends, others take it too seriously (in my opinion.)

We should all find a happy place somewhere in the middle, where we find ourselves competitive yet still having fun with our friends.

Regards,

Ken

stickman
11-27-2002, 10:56 AM
The LO is right. The best thing to do when you wind up with too many really good players is to break up. That sucks when you have good team chemistry, have played together for a couple of sessions, and really enjoy each others company. Two or three players improve their skill level, and you're out of luck. The positive side of this is that it forces better players to recrute lower skill level players to join their teams. This often results in new people being brought into the sport.

Just my own personal thing, but I won't pad innings or loose intentionally for any team. I left a team that wanted to win that way. I know many teams do this, but self respect is more important to me than winning or loosing.

Kato
11-27-2002, 11:03 AM
Ken, my league is not handicapped, therefore, no sandbagging.

Kato~~~will soon starting laying down a line of BS to trap Ken in Louisville.

Rich R.
11-27-2002, 11:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote heater451:</font><hr> but it seems as if the rule is there to keep a team from reaching its full potential. There doesn't seem to be a reason to have everyone progress--in fact, it makes sandbagging almost necessary! <hr /></blockquote>
Heater, I think you are misinterpreting the intent of the 23 rule. It is true that as players improve, it makes it impossible to field 5 players for a match. However, the APA does not want to stop players from reaching their potential. The APA wants you to spit, creating more teams and creating more income. It is simple business.
We can only hope that as the APA grows, along with the rest of the billiards industry, big business will take notice and start to sponsor pool events at all levels. That would be a good thing.
Maybe I'm too idealistic, but I could never agree with sandbagging for any reason. If you want a trophy, buy one. If you want to go to Vegas that bad, quit the APA, save your $7 a week and go. If you sandbag, you are giving up your integrity, which is much more valuable than the trophy or the trip. JMHO.

Rich R.
11-27-2002, 11:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> The SL6 is the anathema to the APA team. He is not good enough to be a SL7 and not smart enough to learn how to remain a SL5. A real team player will do what is good for the team. And becoming a SL6 in APA is not good for your team. <hr /></blockquote>
I can't agree with you jjinfla. If you start out as a 3 or a 4 and practice and improve, you will slowly move up, one level at a time. Being a 6 does not mean that you are not good enough for the 7 and "not smart enough" to remain a 5. It just means that you have improved to level 6, and with more hard work and practice, some day you will be a 7.
Your promotion of sandbagging is disgusting. I don't believe that a player has to give up their personal integrity for the "good of the team". It is dishonest and can be considered nothing short of cheating. JMHO.

cuechick
11-27-2002, 05:27 PM
I love how you call it a 5 MAN team (and have no doubt it was exactly that!)! If your referring to APA, the danger in having just 5 players, is not just in players not showing up but in being able to field a team under 23 points. If you have a 6-4-5-5-3 and that 3 goes up, what then?
Also, as a captain I like to play my team strategically, a lot easier when you have a full roster to choose from. It is also good to keep you opponents guessing. Even in BCA we had a 7 WOMAN team, and I was able to rotate in players and keep the mix strong. We won 3 close matches on the hill by not playing all our strong players first.
As far as playing or not playing, it is part of the APA system, you will sit out, occasionally as will others. I never sat anyone out two weeks in a row though. I have played on teams since I gave up being a captain and usually get to play; but never expect too. I did play on one team where the captain (a 3) played herself every week. It was a little annoying to watch her sit out others, even though I got to play...

jjinfla
11-27-2002, 05:57 PM
Rich, I don't know what your SL is but by your comments I have to think you are not a 6 or 7. I suggest you print out my statement and yours and when you become a 6 you reread them and see who is closer to being right. then when you state that I am promoting sandbagging and giving up my integrity please refer to my statement where I say I no longer play in the APA. You will come to find out that it is not me, or the players, who are promoting sandbagging, it is the rules of the APA that forces the players to do that if they want to survive. The APA is a fun night out and designed for the beginners and average players. Ken's team with three 6's is doomed. It will be almost impossible for their team to finish the session. One 6 will be lucky to be playing at the end of the session. Two of them will be forced to quit, or sit out every week, and they will have to start their own team if they want to continue in the APA because they will not be able to find a team that wants them. Would you want a 6 on your team? Do you think there is any chance that Ken's team would want another 6? But those are just my thoughts after playing in one session back in 1999. I have many friends who play in the APA and several have been to Las Vegas. Most still are 5's. One got upped to a 6 while at Vegas. Now he is frozen at that level. But they know how to play the game (and I don't mean pool) and they are enjoying themselves. Keep in mind that 3's and 4's have this silly tendency to move up to 4's and 5's if the team is in the top three at the end of the session. Then try and figure out how to get a team with two 4's, two 5's and two 6's to play 5 people and come up with 23 points. 4+4+5+5=18. No room for a 6 here. Got to go out and find a 4 or 5. Then when you remember that these six people brought the team to where it is in the standings and now you have to find some 3's to fill the gap, but if you do you can't win with them. And if you get a new person to join the APA he starts at a 4. Ah, it's just too much thinking. Jake~~~happy playing in local tournaments. In fact I have to go to one right now. Bye.

bluewolf
11-27-2002, 06:16 PM
In response to what you were saying to Rich, i do not think a person has to be a high skill level to add. Having me as a sl2 and another guy as a sl3,2sl4,1sl5,1sl6 AND 1 sl7 enables the team to play the 6 one week and the 7 the next week and a 2 or 3 and a nice strong 3 game mix of 4-5.

I see the six as a good player. if all we had was the seven, then we would always have to play the two for the strong 4-5 to play. by playing the six, we can play the good three and still have the strong 4-5 playing so this way we have a good chance because that 3 wins a lot of games for us. our 7 was glad to get the six, i think that all the sl are important. i mean, even though i am a beginner in a sense, i do hope to be a six some day and a good six is definately better than a good five.there are a couple of sixes at our pool hall that are so good they can beat some of the sevens but havent had the winning percentage to move up yet.

just a opinion from a beginner

Laura

Rod
11-27-2002, 07:37 PM
Quote cuechick,"I love how you call it a 5 MAN team (and have no doubt it was exactly that!)! If your referring to APA," snip

Hi cuechick,
I kind of loved that also because that's exactly what it was! My reference was a BCA league. In Ken's post there wasn't a reference to any league in particular. I have since learned that it was APA from all the posts.

That wouldn't be my kind of team or league but I can see how strategy comes into play. I also see the need for a number of players. It's just a different format. I'm sure some like it and others like me won't have anything to do with such a fiasco. In my area what ever a person is rated is what they stay until the end of the season. We have a local ratings committee not a L.O. or whatever that changes a persons handicap. Should a person get raised, it only effects his handicap in local tournaments outside of the league.

In my teams BCA league it was an open division. It didn't matter what your rating, the sky was the limit. One disclamer a Pro status player can't play in Vegas. It paid very little for the season but that was everyones Vegas team. That is why I find it a little odd to have any more than 5 players and a possible sub. A 5 way split in Vegas sure beats 8 ways. Yes it's about the money, but we all had fun though, there and at home.

One thing about our league, we didn't have to play games as in keeping a rating down. I'm not saying you do but I'm sure it happens, I've been reading about it. I've always felt when you join a league/team that you are there to play. Then somone drops the hammer on you because you played to well. The shame of it all, how dare someone improve! Well your going to be sitting a lot, which goes against why you joined a team. For those that are happy with that format that's great. The sad part is, say a team can only come up with 5 players or maybe a possible 6th that is a 5 or 6. Great we have a team, now don't any one of you get better or we will have to play with 4 players. That or just drop out of the league because you'll have to forfit to many games to make it worth while.
Maybe not the best example but an example all the same.

The APA should have an easy sell to room owners. They say just start a team, you will have at least 6 to 8 players per team show up. I'm sorry, if I was a team member I wouldn't like the feeling of being used by "their" system. I'm babbling a bit but as before if anyone likes it, have fun!

cuechick
11-28-2002, 08:58 AM
Yes Rod it is two different schools of thought when it comes to APA and BCA, and though the cash does go further among 5, the depth of a strong 7 player I believe helped my team win the Woman's Masters title and that 8000.00 still went pretty far /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif! But I also take into account the round robin format the women play in and the stamina involved. Also because we pay our own way and the planning starts months in advance you have to factor in the possiblity of someone dropping out for unforseen reasons. I always plan for the unexpected.
But I am off to new territory, I leave for GA this weekend(!!!) I have already signed up for the APA next season in my area. If I go to Vegas at all it will just be for the singles....YE-ha!!

Rich R.
11-28-2002, 09:36 AM
Jake, I don't have to copy your post or mine. I can tell you right now that, from my personal experience and my situation, my post is the truth. I do not believe in sandbagging. If I want to go to Vegas, I will buy a ticket and go. I do not need to cheat to win a trip.
For the record, my story is that I was away from pool for many years. Life gets in the way of a good pool game.
Less than two years ago I decided to start playing again and I learned of the leagues available and joined an APA league near by, starting as a SL-4. I stayed at that level and never went down.
Due to problems with the PH, they no longer have a league, I switched to another APA league in another PH and was taken in by a very nice group of people.
I slowly progressed to the SL-5 and near the end of the summer session, I was bumped up to a SL-6. I continue to practice and improve and look forward to being an SL-7 some day.
As far as my team, they have always been supportive of good play. I have never been asked to stretch out a match or lose on purpose. Currently we have 3 SL-6 players and one of us sits out every week. This decision is made by the captain, based on the opposing team and the best match-ups.
Because of the improvement of myself and others on my team, we are going to split the team for the next session, but it will be a very friendly split.
As far as me and my team, I think this is the way the APA system is suppose to work. I am sorry that you and the APA league in which you played did not work it that way.
The APA does not promote sandbagging. Players that want to win a trip to Vegas so baddly, that they are willing to sacrafice their personal integrity, are the ones that promote sandbagging. I feel sorry for them.

Rod
11-28-2002, 12:03 PM
Good luck cuechick and have a safe trip to Georgia. Same here on the Vegas deal. If I go it will be for singles.

Fred Agnir
11-29-2002, 08:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> Rich, I don't know what your SL is but by your comments I have to think you are not a 6 or 7. I suggest you print out my statement and yours and when you become a 6 you reread them and see who is closer to being right. then when you state that I am promoting sandbagging and giving up my integrity please refer to my statement where I say I no longer play in the APA. You will come to find out that it is not me, or the players, who are promoting sandbagging, it is the rules of the APA that forces the players to do that if they want to survive. The APA is a fun night out and designed for the beginners and average players. Ken's team with three 6's is doomed. <hr /></blockquote>
Every situation is different. To be so bold and difinitive about APA SL-6's in your post tells me that you are only basing your opinion on one (namely your) situation. I played in the APA for over a decade, and have played in several different leagues for 15 years. I have seen and been part of every balance of team you can imagine. Never could I sit here and tell you that three SL-6's on one team was the kiss of death for anyone.

Balance, roster, captain's team management. That's how it's done, just like any team sport. SL-6's in my area are strong players. Certainly not dumb players. Your area might be different.

The cry of "sandbagging" is rampant in the APA because the handicapping system is based on regional activity. So, when a player from a strong area plays against a player from a weak area, their handicaps might be the same, but one will be decisively stronger. The weaker area player will always cry "sandbagging."


Fred

SPetty
11-30-2002, 11:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> If I go it will be for singles. <hr /></blockquote>Okay, if you insist, but if I'm buying, I'd be happy to spring for double shots!