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Sid_Vicious
11-26-2002, 08:59 AM
I couldn't help but notice in watching the 7 ball match last night that Bustamante really does a classic act of breaking one of the fundamental rules of billiards, hitting with force on all of nearly his shots. What I derived(cuz his position play was absolutely superb!) is that, like anything you do to NEAR or TO perfection, you can BREAK the rules and seemingly extend your talent beyond the range of our past fundamental style players. All in all I wonder whether some of us over study and over stress ourselves into confusions by pounding fundamentals into ourselves, especially when a gremlin gets in our game. Just maybe it is a by-product of the clutter and "impossible to tune out completely" mental chatter..."Is my pause and finish good" "Did I hit with consistent speed, not too much force" or any one of a hundred plus other "ghosts" talking at us.

Yea I think Bustamante hitting with the authority and keeping the CB in line THAT well told me something. At some stage in a players progress, especially if he/she has a natural ability wanting to emerge to greatness, rules are meant to be broken. In fact I feel now that without that individual transition that greatness will be stifled and never found. Who fits in this category? A handfull reading this(IMO) but who knows...EVERYONE may have a hidden talent waiting to surface simply by breaking a fundamental rule or two...sid

11-26-2002, 10:40 AM
If people that are struggling with mechanics will read your post it will cure a lot of ills. Also if instructors would follow this advice they would probalby see faster improvement in thier students.

Everyones stroke is going to be different. You can look at a personality of a person and tell what kind of stroke they are going to have..For example...Nick Varner speaks very slowly, has a deliberate personality...His sroke is the same way...Keith Mcready...has a fast pace personality and strokes fast. Your stroke will naturally match the pace of your personality....If you try to change that, it will not be consistant and you will miss under pressure..(you will probably find yourself falling back to a stroke that fits you personaltity) The same applies in the 4-dimensional game of pool...(called golf)

Vapros
11-26-2002, 05:55 PM
I would disagree. I don't believe he was hitting the balls with more than proper force. Looked like pretty economical motion to me. He is a control player, like most of them, in that he makes the CB go where he wants it to. This often means hitting with a little more authority than if he were playing only the position one could get with the roll of the ball. It's the difference between passable position and precision position.

Rod
11-26-2002, 06:24 PM
"All in all I wonder whether some of us over study and over stress ourselves into confusions." snip

Well Sid I've only been saying this since shep was a pup. You can buy all the instructional material, books, and tapes, etc and it may just lead to more confusion. I'm not saying those materials are bad, quite the opposite. I don't have first hand knowledge of any tapes and only three books. What I'm trying to say is, how an individual interprets, plus the process of this information.


"Just maybe it is a by-product of the clutter and "impossible to tune out completely" mental chatter..."Is my pause and finish good" "Did I hit with consistent speed, not too much force" or any one of a hundred plus other "ghosts" talking at us.

If your thinking about all this stuff while playing your in deep doo doo! During practice you can deal with one thing at a time. By far the most critical factor is being able to deliver a stroke exactly where it's aimed on the c/b. How you go about that is basic fundamentals. If one rarely hits the exact aim point then you are never really sure of how the c/b would have reacted. It is not likely one will go through that aim point with a jerked backswing and a rushed forward motion. Your grip pressure or any dramatic change in such during the stroke effects your aim point. In addition it effects your follow through and body movements. If your stroke is cut off short and you fell short or long of position (or worst yet you missed ), I'll bet the farm you had a jerk in your stroke or got tight on the handle, probably both. If you mentally visioned the shot correct the follow through will take care of itself. If you hit the c/b correct; plus made the ball center pocket and didn't get there then you need to work on cue speed for that type of shot. Whew long sentence. The pause, well I believe there should be one at the front end to finalize your aim. At the back end I simply say finish your backswing before your forward motion. For some that will be a pause and for others it is hardly noticable. That is your built in rhythm. I wouldn't try to make rocket science of this stuff. As I have said before, "I see people looking for answers in all the wrong places."

This by no means covers the territory but Busta, Efren etc follow the basic guide line. Neither one has a perfectly straight stroke but they do hit where their aimed.
If people would try to perfect their rhythm and timing it will help other issues. Once again there is a process.
I wouldn't disregard basics because of pocket speed though!

Rich R.
11-27-2002, 05:32 AM
Sid, I think you were watching a different match than I. Busta hit all shots with the appropriate amount of force, soft, medium and hard as needed. After reading your post yesterday, I had to rewatch the match, which I still had on tape. I don't think he used excessive force on any shot.
JMHO.

bluewolf
11-27-2002, 05:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> "All in all I wonder whether some of us over study and over stress ourselves into confusions." snip

Well Sid I've only been saying this since shep was a pup. You can buy all the instructional material, books, and tapes, etc and it may just lead to more confusion. I'm not saying those materials are bad, quite the opposite. I don't have first hand knowledge of any tapes and only three books. What I'm trying to say is, how an individual interprets, plus the process of this information.


"Just maybe it is a by-product of the clutter and "impossible to tune out completely" mental chatter..."Is my pause and finish good" "Did I hit with consistent speed, not too much force" or any one of a hundred plus other "ghosts" talking at us.

If your thinking about all this stuff while playing your in deep doo doo! During practice you can deal with one thing at a time. By far the most critical factor is being able to deliver a stroke exactly where it's aimed on the c/b. How you go about that is basic fundamentals.
<hr /></blockquote>

thanks rod. i have found too that reading too many books means i am not on the table, i am reading LOL.

i also like what you said about the fundamentals. i do focus on them during practice, but in a match i try to be natural and focussed. after the match is over, i may ask my teamates how did my stroke look etc?

one other point about fundamentals. if a person deviates and becomes a champion, many try to follow or copy them. if a poor player deviates, most just say they have a bad stroke etc.imo

blu

Alfie
11-27-2002, 06:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> thanks rod. i have found too that reading too many books means i am not on the table, i am reading LOL. <hr /></blockquote> It's true with this damn computer too!

Sid_Vicious
11-27-2002, 10:53 AM
I'm still saying though that his pocket speed for the OB was sailing in, and the shape rolls(imo) were controlled more with force than with natural mass roll. Being that the guy also has a shorter punchy style stroke, it also make sense that he gets his position with more force than forward finesse using natural follow. I dunno, maybe it's just my perception. Thanks, sid

Rich R.
11-27-2002, 11:31 AM
Sid, you may have a point on some of his shots, but I did not perceive any excess force on any particular shot. Maybe we just have different ideas about what is "excess force". However, I am normally a very soft hitting player, compared to many, and I usually notice when a player is using, what I believe to be, excessive force.
I can also add, I happened to be in the crowd at that event and, watching the match live, I still can not remember Busta hitting balls any harder than other players. If I had to pick one of the players who hit fairly hard, I would have to choose Luc Salvas, not Busta.

smfsrca
11-27-2002, 11:57 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Bustamante really does a classic act of breaking one of the fundamental rules of billiards <hr /></blockquote>
Which fundamental rule are you talking about. Please provide a reference into the literature or quote from an expert.
Steve

Sid_Vicious
11-27-2002, 12:37 PM
There's been a flat statement from many texts and videos that the bulk of people playing pool hit the ball harder than needed. Bustamante, in my opinion does this with personal perfection in how he moves the rock. That's my only point. The rules in most any sporting endeavor, once mastered can be bent or broken for that individual to really stand out above most of the rest of us. At some point it's time to quit being the student and become the player we are supposed to be...sid

Sid_Vicious
11-27-2002, 12:49 PM
I've maybe been watching too much WPBA pool on TV...the men put more into their strokes. It sure was an impressive display of position play! sid

bluewolf
11-27-2002, 01:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> There's been a flat statement from many texts and videos that the bulk of people playing pool hit the ball harder than needed. Bustamante, in my opinion does this with personal perfection in how he moves the rock. That's my only point. The rules in most any sporting endeavor, once mastered can be bent or broken for that individual to really stand out above most of the rest of us. At some point it's time to quit being the student and become the player we are supposed to be...sid <hr /></blockquote>

Not trying to argue with anyone but scott lee makes sense when he says hit the ball as hard as you need to to get it in the pocket and get desired position on the next shot. not exact words but made very good sense to me.

bw

smfsrca
11-27-2002, 01:42 PM
Sid
[ QUOTE ]
There's been a flat statement from many texts and videos that the bulk of people playing pool hit the ball harder than needed.<hr /></blockquote>
Which texts are you talking about?
[ QUOTE ]
Bustamante, in my opinion does this (hit the ball harder than needed) with personal perfection...<hr /></blockquote>

Bustamonte is hardly representative of the bulk of people playing pool.
He does hit the ball with perfection, but hardly "harder than needed".

Nothing you have said yet convinces me of your original point, that rules are meant to be broken. I do agree that their are a number of good players with unorthodox practices, but these are not the best players to emulate if you are just learning. It takes a lot longer to adapt to or overcome poor habits.

Sid_Vicious
11-27-2002, 03:19 PM
I enjoy the discussion here, thanks. The times I've hit the zone I have remembrances of movements from before I really learned pool right, it all became "me" and nobody elses' teachings. There's anindividual flow, and many times shots I made were contradictory to fundamental pool. My point is that the individual themselves develop what they produce as excellent by sliding on the rules, doing something seemingly impossible merely out of imagination and personally produced strokes. My indicating that Bustamante avoided fundamentals and hit harder than needed was simply an implication that different style with more center ball, and follow for position is more prevailant in pool school teachings. Beyond the schools, beyond the private lessons, I feel is another zone that the elite acquire and this acquisition many times (imo) breaks rules.

Just my opinion, not to say it is correct, just an opinion. MEANT to be broken was possibly a bad choice of thread title..sid

bluewolf
11-27-2002, 03:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> I enjoy the discussion here, thanks. The times I've hit the zone I have remembrances of movements from before I really learned pool right, it all became "me" and nobody elses' teachings. There's anindividual flow, and many times shots I made were contradictory to fundamental pool. My point is that the individual themselves develop what they produce as excellent by sliding on the rules, doing something seemingly impossible merely out of imagination and personally produced strokes. My indicating that Bustamante avoided fundamentals and hit harder than needed was simply an implication that different style with more center ball, and follow for position is more prevailant in pool school teachings. Beyond the schools, beyond the private lessons, I feel is another zone that the elite acquire and this acquisition many times (imo) breaks rules.

Just my opinion, not to say it is correct, just an opinion. MEANT to be broken was possibly a bad choice of thread title..sid <hr /></blockquote>

I did not see the match but got your concepts and they made sense to me. It is like a person can be wrong in the letter of the law but right in it's intent and purpose.

cheeers

Laura

Popcorn
11-28-2002, 01:39 PM
He seems to be powering the cueball around, not that uncommon. A lot of good players don't roll the cueball much, but hit it firm and let it slide with force. Tommy Kennedy does it on even easy shots. You can create unnatural angles doing so for position play. The only draw back may be jarring a ball that is not hit well or getting in the habit of playing like that to the point you can't roll the cueball even if you want to. It is just a style of play and I would not call it breaking any rules.