PDA

View Full Version : 12mm vs 13 mm shafts



Hopster
11-30-2002, 04:50 PM
Is there any advantage to using a 13mm shaft versus a 12mm ?
Is the 13 more stable and would be less subject to bending on hard shots or is it more a question of comfort ?
I had a shaft turned down to 12mm from 13 and i like it much better, so i thought i would get more opinions.

11-30-2002, 05:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Hopster:</font><hr> Is there any advantage to using a 13mm shaft versus a 12mm ?
Is the 13 more stable and would be less subject to bending on hard shots or is it more a question of comfort ?
I had a shaft turned down to 12mm from 13 and i like it much better, so i thought i would get more opinions. <hr /></blockquote>

well,for openers, if you like it then it's right for you.

i think the "average" shaft these days is maybe 13mm. i say maybe because the predator is just 12.75 which is something like 7% bigger than what you now have. not much really.

yes, making the shaft thinner does make it more whippy or easier to bend which can be good or bad. it'll reduce the throw a little bit but will also (depending on who you ask) give you a bit less spin on the ball. some people think it rebounds into the c.b. adding english but it's pretty well proven that the tip isn't on the c.b. long enough for anything like that.

i think it's somewhat generally accepted that the bigger tip size gives you a more dependable hit on the ball. that concept was taken to extreme early in the last century when some guys were using bell shaped ferrules that expanded out to really big tips.

you didn't say what brand of shaft you have but some, depending on grade of wood and taper will be whippy or stiff at 13mm. i guess meucci is known for being a pretty good fly rod and pechauer for being stiff. i think predator is fairly stiff.

assuming a nickel radius on the tip, the smaller it gets the less likely it is to hit the cb exactly where you expect it to. the bigger tip is somewhat more forgiving.

again, it ain't a whole lotta difference but it's there.

dan

Troy
11-30-2002, 07:24 PM
IMO there's a place in between going from a 13mm to a 12mm, a happy compromise. Personally, I like mine a bit smaller than 13mm --- about 12.75mm, but I do NOT like a 12mm -- too small.

I do re-tapers for quite a few customers and the majority request between 12.5mm and 12.75mm down from 13mm-13+mm.

Troy

Hopster
11-30-2002, 07:31 PM
Houston Dan and Troy, thanks for the input.
I did have a few miscues since i turned it down,more than normal. After reading Dans reply,it makes a little sense now.
Its a helmstter shaft. My other one is 13mm, i may try 12.75 next and see how that feels. The shop only charged me $15 for the job, which i know isnt bad.
But i do like the feel of the smaller shaft.

Chris Cass
11-30-2002, 08:17 PM
Efren and Busty shoot with 12.5mm. I think 12.75 is perfect and would give it time to adjust to. 12mm is a good snooker shaft. IMO

Regards,

C.C.~~13mm is ok but I find trouble getting under the cb. 12.75 is just about right.

stickman
12-01-2002, 12:25 AM
HDJ, I agree. The 13mm is more forgiving. I played with a 12mm for quite a while. As long as I was playing very well, the stick worked wonderfully for me. If my game was off just a little, I found that I could play much better with my 13mm. The smaller diameter forces you to be more precise with your hit. JMO

I use my 13mm pretty much exclusively now and carry the 12mm for a backup.

TonyM
12-01-2002, 11:02 AM
"Efren and Busty shoot with 12.5mm."

Actually, I think that Effren used a 12.0 mm for the longest time.
And there are quite a few Eurpean players 9not the snooker players!) that use something closer to 12.0 mm.

And no, 12.0 mm would NOT make a good snooker size! It is way,way, way too big for snooker! (seriously!).

The standard tip size for snooker in england is 9.5 mm. 10.0 mm is considered a bit on the big size!

No self respecting snooker player would be caught dead with a tip as large as 12.0 mm!

Tony
-my snooker cue is 10.0 mm...

Chris Cass
12-01-2002, 11:25 AM
Hi Tony,

Just some info I got out of the 1999 Camel Pro Billiards Series, tournament &amp; player guide. They had a nice layout with good photos and stats on most of the pros that played the Camel events.

Your right about the snooker shafts being so small. I myself played a few times with Mark Wilson. Mark plays it pretty good and I found shooting with a 12mm shaft good for me. That doesn't make me a good snooker player but I don't do too bad. I like it but to be honest. I'd rather play 6 ball with snooker balls on a tight snooker table. I enjoyed it. Savanna, Georgia Ahh, the ring games...

Thanks Tony, your very knowledgable and your willingness to share your knowledge shows your a class act.

Regards,

C.C.~~not a self respecting snooker player..LOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

TonyM
12-01-2002, 11:41 AM
Actually Dan, I think that almost all the comments you've made regrading tip sizes are imo, essentially backwards!

Let me explain:

"yes, making the shaft thinner does make it more whippy or easier to bend which can be good or bad."

Making the "tip size" smaller doesn't neccessarily mean that the shaft has to be "more whippy". You are assuming that the shaft would have a pro taper? You can reduce the diameter progressively, so that the shaft diameter in the middle of the stroking area is the same as the original size, thus creating a slight conical taper. What this would do is actually create the impression that the shaft is "stiffer" than the original! (assuming that the original was a 13 mm pro taper). The dynamic stiffness would actually increase, even if the static stiffness stayed the same, thus the impression.

"it'll reduce the throw a little bit"

Huh? How is "throw" effected by the cue at all? Or do you mean squirt? All else being equal, a reduction in tip size will reduce squirt.

"but will also (depending on who you ask) give you a bit less spin on the ball."

How would changing the tip size give any less or more spin on the ball? If the tip CURVATURE remains the same, and the actual shaft centerline displacement from the middle of the ball is the same, then the actual contact point on the cue ball will be the same regardless of the tip diameter. Therefore, the cueball doesn't know how big the tip is, therefore the spin remains the same. Doesn't increase (as many believe) or decrease (as apparently some believe).

"i think it's somewhat generally accepted that the bigger tip size gives you a more dependable hit on the ball."

I think this is generally "believed" but I think it's generally false! Again, if the tip curvature is maintained, then the contact point remains the same AND the actual contact patch size remains the same. So the tip size cannot affect the "dependability" of the hit . I think that this is one of those "commonly accepted notions" that nobody really takes the time to examine, or test. They just accept it as gospel. I've tested tip sizes all the way down to 8.0 mm and up to 15.0 mm. I see no greater "dependability" for the larger size.

Now if the tip diameter was reduced to an extreme, then at the maximum offset, the edge of the tip would hit the ball, not the curved portion up on the hemisphere. And this would indeed create a possible miscue situation. But for a nickel curvature, I've calculated that the tip size would have to be less than 9.0 mm for this to happen! So 12.0 mm is really no problem.

Btw, Rambow's Bell ferrules were not done to create really large tip sizes. The tip sizes were not really any bigger than today. Rather, they were a way to have a conical taper shaft (going down to a small tip size) with a larger than possible tip size. In effect, it is similar to predator's idea for reducing effective end-mass, but it is on the outside (material removed from the cone) rather than on the inside (the 314's hollow section).

"assuming a nickel radius on the tip, the smaller it gets the less likely it is to hit the cb exactly where you expect it to."

This is an interesting comment, as I think it is completely backwards!

Imagine for a moment that the tip size was taken to an extreme in both directions:

The large tip is 25.0 mm in diameter, and the small tip goes right down to a point. Which one would be easier to hit exactly where you expect to?

I'd say it would be the small tip. Think about it for a moment, what happens when a tip hits a cue ball? The tip hits the cue ball at a point that is tangent to both surfaces. Thus, as you move the tip farther away from center, the actual contact point on the tip itself moves away from center, and towards the edge of the tip. So to hit the ball exactly where you want, you have to estimate where the actual contact will take place, and adjust the tip position accordingly.

The larger the tip size, the more difficault it is to estimate the actual tangent point, while the smaller the tip size, the easier it is to estimate the actual contact point. If the tip were a point, then the estimated vesus actual tip contact point would be exactly the same. Any increase in diameter would therefore reduce this relationship.

This is the reason why 3C players prefer a small tip size afterall. Even though their cue ball is considerably larger than a pool bal, they use a 11.5 to 12.0 mm tip size typically. Since that game requires an extremely precise hit on the cue ball, it makes sense that they would prefer a smaller tip. The same holds true for snooker players. Note also that 3C players need large amounts of spin frequently. So the small tip cannot be a hinderance to them!

I think that the REAL reason why pool uses large tips has nothing to do with "forgiveness" or "reliability" or "spin" or any of those things. I think it is due to the traditional use of the "pro" taper!

All the other major cue sports use conical tapers. Since conical tapers don't effect the shaft stiffness as much if the tip size is reduced, then they can utilize whatever tip size that they feel is optimum.

But since pool players seem to prefer the long cylindrical shaft tapers, then the minimum tip size is effectively set by the shaft stiffness requirements, not by the tip placement issues (or it would be smaller imo!).

So if you want a pro taper, then any tip diameter below 12.5 mm starts to become whippy in a hurry.

Try a 3C shaft (12.0 mm) on the pool table and you will change your mind about what is happenning! You will see that it is actually easier to hit the cue ball where you want, not harder. But, you will also find that the strong conical taper is not as comfortable when using a closed bridge.

Thus you will see the compromises present , and why they are there.

Tony
-there was a thread on rsb called "Tip size, or why so big" that discused all this in detail...

12-01-2002, 12:40 PM
well, tony, with respect for your consistantly valuable input here i'll say you've done an admiranle job of explaining exactly why the bumblebee cannot, in fact, fly.

you helpfully suggest i try a smaller tip and see for myself. well, after shooting an 11mm rambo for 30 plus years i think i can say i've done that.

he said he turned-town the shaft so i reasonably assumed he maintained the original taper, whatever that was. all things then being equal, he has reduced the apparent mass as seen by the cb. yes, wonderous things may be accomplished with changes to taper but that's another discussion.

yes, i have my copy of the jacksonville tape at hand.

it seems, by your bumblebee analysis, that we would all be better served shooting with tiny tips. we are not. i was clear that the change from 13mm to 12mm was not much, but it's there.

usually, when i come up with a conclusion that says "i'm right and everyone else is wrong.", i, at least, review that conclusion.

nad

Hopster
12-01-2002, 02:36 PM
Thanks Tony, that was an interesting explanation.
What i should have actually done was stick to the motto that the carpenters have : You can take it off but you cant put it back. Meaning i should have reduced to 12.75 and went down as i saw fit, that would have been the wise way to do it. But aside from a few miscues so far, im pretty happy with the shaft, feels a lot better than the 13.
Time will tell if i made a good move or not.

preacherman
12-01-2002, 04:58 PM
I have a 13mm shaft that I started with at first.
But when I bought my cue it came with 2 shafts one
was 13mm and the other was 12.5mm. I never used the
12.5 mm, until one day I accidentally grabbed that shaft
instead of the 13 mm. I noticed I was playing better then
I discovered it was my 12.5mm shaft. From that day on I have use 12.5mm. That helped my game personally - but I'm saying all should change. Bottom line is play with whatever is best for your game.

Jim
www.geocities.com/pool4Christ/ (http://www.geocities.com/pool4Christ/)

silverbullet
12-01-2002, 05:48 PM
I think it is a personal thing. I am okay with anything between 12mm and 13mm. over 13 and it is getting a little thick for my finger length. I used to think that I could english better with my 12.5 than my 13, but that was all in my head. Also I had been taught by someone who liked to english a lot. That was okay for an advanced player, but as a new player, I decided based much on advice from here that I needed to not be using english at this point now, but working on accuracy.

Laura

BLACKHEART
12-01-2002, 07:07 PM
These coments about smaller shaft sizes is particularly interesting to me for several reasons. 1st of all I came from an American Snooker background &amp; yes I think that for Americans a 12mm shaft is probaly what most people play with that want one Q for both games.
The other thing is that some people thought that getting the tip turned down meant retapering the whole shaft. I have a shaft here right, now that the owner wants a 12.5mm taper for the 1st 15 inches. Of all of the shafts I've turned down over the last 17 years this is the 1st time the customer knew what he wanted. Generally they just walk in &amp; say "I shot with so &amp; so's Q &amp; he has a 12mm tip &amp; that's what I want". If I ask him what kind of taper he wants , he has no idea. Try to give your Qman all of the information he needs or you could get something that is nothing like what you want...JER

Troy
12-01-2002, 08:34 PM
Good point Jer... Whenever I have someone wanting a shaft re-tapered, I always have a discussion about they actually want, such as conical, pro taper &amp; how far, etc. The majority don't really have a clue except "I shot with so-n-so's cue" as you said. Too bad ain't it

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr>
The other thing is that some people thought that getting the tip turned down meant retapering the whole shaft. I have a shaft here right, now that the owner wants a 12.5mm taper for the 1st 15 inches. Of all of the shafts I've turned down over the last 17 years this is the 1st time the customer knew what he wanted. Generally they just walk in &amp; say "I shot with so &amp; so's Q &amp; he has a 12mm tip &amp; that's what I want". If I ask him what kind of taper he wants , he has no idea. Try to give your Qman all of the information he needs or you could get something that is nothing like what you want...JER <hr /></blockquote>

Rod
12-02-2002, 02:25 PM
"These coments about smaller shaft sizes is particularly interesting to me for several reasons. 1st of all I came from an American Snooker background &amp; yes I think that for Americans a 12mm shaft is probaly what most people play with that want one Q for both games."

Hi Jer,
I agree the standard for most Americans is about that size. Even if they had a separate cue many would not go smaller. The cue I use for snooker has conical tapered shaft at 12.25 mm. It's all in what your use to. What also is important to me is the weight. My regular cue at 19oz is just to heavy for those small balls.

BLACKHEART
12-02-2002, 02:53 PM
I grew up in a pool hall with 3 - 10 foot snooker tables &amp; a heavy Q in there was a 17 oz...JER

Rod
12-02-2002, 03:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TonyM:</font><hr> "Efren and Busty shoot with 12.5mm."

Actually, I think that Effren used a 12.0 mm for the longest time.
And there are quite a few Eurpean players 9not the snooker players!) that use something closer to 12.0 mm.

My guess is if Efren was playing snooker he would still use that 12mm shaft! If that was the case, far be it from me or anyone else to tell him it's wrong.


And no, 12.0 mm would NOT make a good snooker size! It is way,way, way too big for snooker! (seriously!).

Seriously, 12mm does make a good snooker shaft. It's just two different opinions.


The standard tip size for snooker in england is 9.5 mm. 10.0 mm is considered a bit on the big size!

Well here you have it, in England. Those shafts were not always that small. Someone "over there" decided a small shaft is better. I don't disagree it does have it's advantages to a point. Then someone decided even smaller was better etc. I believe this to be related to a country or reigon.

No self respecting snooker player would be caught dead with a tip as large as 12.0 mm!

I'm sure many do feel that way. What really puzzles me is they have a small shaft with a tip mushroomed over the ferrule! In fact that tip size may be as big as 11mm, just a guess. How does that make any sense? Once again it appears to be more of a fad, "if you will", or related to a region. I'd have to re-learn the game with a shaft that small, not in my future plans as what I have works well. The Brit's go through changes over here. For instance Allison Fisher uses a 13mm shaft. I believe she must see an advantage to that shaft size, over say a 12mm to 12.5mm. It would be interesting to know what size snooker shaft she did use and what she would use now playing snooker. All I can say it's all preference, no right or wrong. I mentioned earlier, of equal or more importance to me is the cue weight playing either game.

Tony
-my snooker cue is 10.0 mm...
<hr /></blockquote>

TonyM
12-02-2002, 03:25 PM
"i'll say you've done an admiranle job of explaining exactly why the bumblebee cannot, in fact, fly. "

Lol! Really, I have? Gee, did anyone tell the Bumblebee? I'm not sure what you mean.

"after shooting an 11mm rambo for 30 plus years i think i can say i've done that. "

Actually, I said to try a carom cue (conical taper 12 mm tip), but I get your point.

"he said he turned-town the shaft so i reasonably assumed he maintained the original taper, whatever that was."

Yes that's the common assumption that most people make. But as Blackheart said, you don't HAVE to go that way. You can have any kind of taper (conical, part conical part cylindrical etc.) and still end up with a 12 mm tip.

"t seems, by your bumblebee analysis, that we would all be better served shooting with tiny tips. we are not."

Did I say tiny? Lol! Of course I realize that not everyone would want or need a smaller tip. That's a given. My point was merely to give an alternate view to the commonly held belief that bigger tips are more forgiving and why.

And no, I'm not saying I'm right and everyone else is wrong! Lol! I'm frequently wrong, and not afraid to admit it.

But I'm also not afraid to challenge common beliefs when I think that they don't tell the whole story.

I actually believe that the most common affects usually attributed to tip size are often due to a change in tip curvature. We get so used to looking at the curvature commonly used on a 13 mm tip, that we get a feel for the ratio of curvature to tip diameter. So a nickel curvature on a 11.0 mm tip just "looks" too flat. So players will round it out until it looks "right". This change in curvature does indeed affect the ratio of shaft offset to spin (by changing the actual contact point relative to the shaft centerline offset). Often, the diameter is blamed rather than the curvature.

There is also another aspect of tip size that I didn't mention.

When talking about the tip to ball contact point, the tip size can influence two separate requirements. How accurately you can hit a given point on the ball is one of them.

I think that any top 3C player will tell you that to maximize the ability to hit a given point on the ball, you want the smallest tip size possible. (nore "possible", too small and the tip doesn't stand up to the beating).

But the second (and equally important) is how accurately you can judge where that point on the ball should be.

If you wanted to hit the exact dead center of the cue ball, the best way would be to use a 2.25" diameter cue tip! You could easilly see when the tip was in the middle of the ball, as you would only have to align the outer edge of the shaft to the outer edge of the cue ball all the way around.

So to judge the center of the cue ball (along the vertical axis) it might be better to have a larger tip, as it is easier to judge when it is in the center of the ball. The left and right edge of the tip is closer to the outer edges of the cue ball.

So there is a trade off with respect to tip sizes.

The smaller tip is better for aiming at an exact spot on the ball. But the larger tip is better for judging where the center of the cue ball actually is.

For novices, judging where the center of the ball is is more important than judging the exact location of the tip. For top players, the balance starts to go the other way.

Depending on the type of game you play, whether you use a lot of spin, or stick to center ball, the tip size compromise will be a personal decision based on trial and error.


Tony

Rod
12-02-2002, 03:29 PM
How interesting, the room I started playing at had one 12 footer and two 10 footers. There was four 9 ft pool tables. It was common to play on either and as mentioned there was plenty of light cues. I had a favorite for snooker at 15oz.

TonyM
12-02-2002, 03:33 PM
That's the advice I always gave my customers. Take it down a bit at a time. You can always go smaller!

Did you keep the tip and the curvature the same? You shouldn't get any more miscues with a smaller tip.

The only way that this could happen is if you judge the tip offset by the outer edges of the tip. The larger tip tends to force you to stay closer to the center of the ball, because it always looks farther from center than it actually is. (another reason why people call larger tips more "forgiving").

If you put the smaller tip on the ball so that it's outer edge is in the same place as it would be with the larger tip, then you will be farther from center (judged by the actual tip/ball contact point).

This greater contact point could be the cause of your miscues. You are actually striking the ball farther from center than you think!

Keep the tip curvature the same, and pay attention to the actual tip ball contact point (use a striped ball for reference) and you shouldn't get any more miscues than you would with the larger tip. Let the ball action be your guide.

Tony
-sometimes plays 9 ball with an 11.0 mm tip and rarely miscues....