View Full Version : How can "WE" make Pool Flourish?

03-09-2002, 11:53 PM
Let's use this topic as a brainstorm for all of us to share our opinions on ideas to make a successful Nat'l Tour.
Main issues I feel that are needed are:
1) A title sponsor(s)
2) Endorsements for players
3) A desire by all players to be an event champion
4) Contingency sponsors
5) At least 8 major events a year
6) An annual Champion points fund
7) Role Model Players

That's a quick list of topics I can think of in around 10 minutes. I figure before I start sharing my thoughts, or resolutions to these topics is to let the rest of you add topics to this list.
I believe that we, as a community, here at the CCB have an untapped power. We have the power to share our thoughts, and opinions any time of day we want Nationwide (Actually Worldwide)!
I know many of you have got to have your ideas as to "What needs to be done". So let's here it! Let us be heard!

03-10-2002, 12:46 AM
Make Pool Flourish.

1. ethics of conduct.
2. image -> change it.
3. non profit promotions(more charity events with pro players)-> cheap advertising
4. create more youth leagues
5. create better learning environments(free)
6. get better sponsorship -> connected with image
7. create a global marketing strategy
8. improve public perception of billiards and pool(Therefore ask them why they don't like pool)
9. pool cue maker marketing strategy.( Make it cool)

03-10-2002, 07:42 AM
Good morning:

All of the recommendations and suggestions listed are excellent. However, in order to pull it all together, you also need the following: (1) Strong Business Plan; (2) Realistic and attainable Budget; (3) Revenue Model; (4) Marketing Plan; (5) "Strong" Operations and Financial Management. Remember, sponsors are no different from investors; they want to see a return on their investments.

How do I know this? I know this because this is what I do for a living. www.dianasorrentino.com (http://www.dianasorrentino.com)

Dr. D.

03-10-2002, 10:01 AM
Years ago around 1970 a man named Charlie Robertson the original owner of Robertsons Billiards supple in Tampa Florida had an idea to promote pool. He spent some money and time trying to get it going but it died. Here is what he tried to do. He felt the real beneficiaries of the promotion of pool would be the small businessman. The little billiard supply or mom and pop 10 table poolroom. Rather then go after some big sponsor, he wanted to put together an organization of small businessmen that would sponsor tournaments and in general promote the sport. If you do the math the number is staggering. Remember what happened following 9/11. It shows what a lot of people on the same page can do. You would not need to be in the business to join, just have a love for the sport and want to see it grow. Rather then wait for some big money sponsor to do it, who by the way would hold the purse strings. We the fans and small businessmen do it ourselves. There is strength in numbers. Laws get passed and policies get changed when a lot of people begin to pursue a common goal. As an example, We could raise a $50,000 right here on this board if we really wanted to with no problem. Like I said, Charlies idea died, but I still like the concept. The organization would not be nonprofit, it would generate money itself. With that kind of organization $250,000 tournaments could be common place. Every small poolroom owner/member would benefit. A lot of people with a common goal. Just something to think about, Would you as a fan pay $10.00 a year or as a small businessman pay $100. a year to an organization whose sole focus function and obsession is the promotion and forced growth of the sport? We already probably spend $1000 to $2000 each just on table time while wishing the sport was bigger. The answer may be in our own hands. Just an idea.

03-10-2002, 10:04 AM
You all have great ideas, i hope it all happens!

03-10-2002, 10:40 AM
Isn't that what the BAC is SUPPOSED to be all about? Regards, JimS

03-10-2002, 10:53 AM
OPPPPS! Of course that's supposed to be BCA.

And...I even proof read it!

03-10-2002, 11:59 AM
If someone would show me anything of substance the BCA has done to promote this sport. I would be interested to know.

Rich R.
03-10-2002, 12:12 PM
I would pay $10 a year in a heartbeat if it would help. That is less than a tip change. However, this idea sounds too good to work. Rich R.~~~more than willing to pay if it stands a chance of working.

03-10-2002, 02:13 PM
Great people,
What a great list to start with. Dr. D I am really glad to see you respond to this ( I had a gut feeling you would take interest in this).
First off, I am no expert in Business consultation, fortunately one of the CCB members is (Dr. D.) and what an incredible asset she could be with this endeavor.
I would think the first thing that would have to be done is to spread the word (Part of the marketing plan). Possibly designing flyers to be handed out at pool halls, billiards supply stores, and other related type places, to see if there is enough interest throughout the pool world to strive for a reformation of a professional tour. On the flyer we will have to designate a place for people to reply. (Maybe here at the Billiards Digest site)?

03-10-2002, 02:25 PM
When I first read this post I thought here we go again but then I thought maybe this is new time and a new opportunity to do something for our sport. Leaving it to an outside source to come save our pastime may bequeath to many things to chance and be seriously flawed thinking. If the many hours, that all us who love this American pool game, were added together and paid minium wage for the total would be a nice starting point for a real professional tour...that being said how does one get us lovers to part with the beginning donation? How would we be made to trust the organization(whatever it maybe) to get a 'real tour' started? These are just some of initial questions that popped into my cheese addled mind. Any suggestions???

03-10-2002, 02:41 PM
The one person that comes to my mind, if she is interested, as being the "Director of Operations" for the "United States Billiard Tour" (USBT) would have to be Dr. Diana Sorrentino. As I stated before Dr. D is an incredible asset and has the intelligence and experience of making businesses successful.
I believe she has the ambition for pool to be successful, and has ideas that are aimed to revolutionize the professional ranks.

03-10-2002, 02:55 PM
Raising Investment / Sponsorship Capital!

Good afternoon:

Rasing capital, through either investors and/or sponsors, is not difficult if you have a plan and the mechanics are in place to make it work. With over 1000 women, competing on regional tours who are NOT members of the WPBA, coupled with the men's regional tours and the amatuer ranks provides for the develoment of very strong fields. To get the ball rolling, an explatory committe could be formed to begin the developing a prelimary outline. Once completed, target goals and objectives could be set and pursued. The time is ripe for an action like this.

Dr. D.

03-10-2002, 03:22 PM
I love it.

Time to take pool seriously and help it grow, especially since the WPBA is withering on the vine. A new national tour for men and women is essential as I am certain that their days as a viable organization are numbered.


03-10-2002, 03:51 PM
How about an annual membership dues, with an associate subscription to a Billiard Themed magazine (not to name any names /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif ) which would come with an "Official Rulebook" and the right to participate in any of the events.
I firmly believe that the tournaments should be left as an "Open" field. If a member wants to participate in the tournament, and pays the entry fee, great! Let us all play!
I also think a Round Robin format should be utilized. This is also great for all players and competition. Personally, I would love the chance to play, Nick Varner, Corey Deuel, Earl Strickland, Johnny archer, etc. all in the same division in the same tournament. That would be well worth my entry fee, where else could you find those types of matches for the price of a major tournament entry fee?
The Divisions should be seeded to eliminate the possibility of one division having all top ten touring pros in the same division. After the Round Robin competition is completed the top two players out of each division earn a spot in the 64 bracket. The remaining spots left in the 64 are then filled with players who have the best winning record achieved through their division. The 64 bracket is then a double elimination tournament.

03-10-2002, 04:45 PM
Dr D,
Of all the alphabet soup organizations of pool the WPBA seems to have done the best over time but still it doesn’t appear to be good enough. As a professional and with your somewhat limited access to the enter workings of the WPBA did you see a basic flaw in the set up that should be exploited in any new organization?

03-10-2002, 05:11 PM
If you want to make pool into a more mainstream sport that could possibly generate more (some) revenue from gate sales, you need to get pool tables into the schools and onto the playgrounds (using the outdoor pool tables, there are a couple in Battery Park City Park in Manhatten). If schools had pool teams along with their football, basketball, track and field, and soccer etc; it would create a huge jump in the number of serious players and spectators. If I owned a pool hall, and if a local school would accept it, I would donate a table to them. The dividends in creating future customers that would patronize the room would be large. This would be particularly effective if a number of pool halls in an area did the same thing to a number of schools in the same area, on the condition that the schools form a pool league for the students.

Making pool an Olympic Sport would be huge also.

03-10-2002, 05:41 PM
Good afternoon:

Having worked with successful companies, as well as those on the verge of bankruptcy, I have seen first hand what works and what does not when in comes to management, marketing and sales. However, due to the fact that any discussion on my part on how the WPBA is organized and/or managed would be inappropriate as well as unethical, I must refrain from answering your question on this forum.

Dr. D.

03-10-2002, 07:13 PM
Dr D,
After I posted my question I realized it was an unfair question due to the state of affairs and the circumstances of your involvement in the WPBA. I should have been more thoughtful, sorry.

03-10-2002, 07:18 PM
There have been alot of good ideas suggested to promoting pool. I especially like the idea of getting pool introduced in school, starting leagues between competing school and developing future patrons to pool rooms.

Some of the other suggestions are very ambitious, but that may be what it takes to change the perception of pool and make it a viable business for players, sponsers, operators, and everyone else involved.

Perhaps now is the time to for a commission to look into the creation of a new organization. Develop a vision and mission statement.

We could be on the verge of a new frontier in pool . . . or an episode of the twilight zone.

"to seek, to strive, to find . . . and not to yield!"
John G.

03-10-2002, 07:32 PM
Hey Guys!
Tom in Brooklyn has definately got it right. Put Pool in the schools! My kid extorts about two hundred a month out of me for skateboard supplies, videos, lessons, skate park fees, etc. While I certainly don't mind ponying up for his passion, I would love for him to share mine. Exposure to the sport from someone other than a parent ( SSOOO Uncool when you're fourteen) would probably boost kid's interest. Then, pretend that you HATE them being in the pool hall and PRESTO! You've got instant pool junkies! I'm telling you, it could work!!!

03-10-2002, 07:34 PM
Good evening:

No apology is needed, as I am certain that your interests and intentions were honorable with no malice intended for the WPBA.

I learned, many years ago, that she/he who fails to study history is destined to repeat it. The development of any organization, whether a for profit or not for profit entity, will require those at the helm to look at a variety of organizations for what has worked and what has failed to work. When something is working, you should ask why it is working and what will be required to keep it working. When something is not working, you need to ask why it is not working which could include the fact that the time has not yet come for the idea to be workable. Organizations like the PGA, WPGA, NBA, AAGPBL, etc. have histories of slow and methodical growth and development. You can not build a skyscraper on a foundation which is only suitable for a 5 story building. Most of the Dot.Coms which launched over the past 5 years failed because of many factors. The most compeling component to their failure was the lack of earnings (profits) because they had no viable revenue model. Pocket Billiards (PooL) can become main stream if we take the time to create a market for a product which has yet to develop a market beyond the "Sub Culture" (nothing negative here) which embraces the sport at this time. Remember that few if any fans of football, baseball, hockey or even soccer play the sport they love to watch.

Just a little food for thought.

Dr. D.

03-10-2002, 07:40 PM
Hello All,
I made a post a couple of days ago and I probably titled it incorrectly. IT is titled "Attn Roomowners". The topic had to do with organizing youth pool, which I believe is the lifeline of our sport.

03-10-2002, 07:45 PM
I have to agree with you Tom. I think the future of pool is in the youth. Here's an idea. I don't know if any of you belong to clubs or teams that could do something like this, but our archery club organized archery instruction and demonstrations at all the area elementary schools. This was easier, because we could take our equipment to the schools. We even gave lessons at the State Hospital and Training Center. We had sessions one night a week for about a month and a half. At the end, there were certificates given out. This generated several new youth archers. Maybe some sort of after school program could be setup, for pool demonstrations and instruction.

03-10-2002, 08:35 PM
Hello all,
I am serious about starting a revolutionary Billiard Organization/Tour to bring Pocket Billiards to the next level.
I have a vision of an organization supported, and founded by it's members whose ultimate goal is a competitive professional billiards tour. This organization will allow anyone who wants to participate in a professional tournament to do so, as long as they are a member of the organization, and pay the entry fee.
My challenge to all that read this: Tell five people this week about the idea of a new billiards tour forming. Tell them to respond here at this site to "The New Billiards Tour" post and if they are interested, to reply and leave their name and address. If you come in contact with someone who does not have access to a computer, offer to take their information and post it for them if they would be in favor of such a tour. Also, tell everyone you come in contact with to tell five other people about the idea.
This list can be used as a tool used later to show proof of interest to potential sponsors and such.

03-10-2002, 11:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TheShot:</font><hr> Hello all,
I am serious about starting a revolutionary Billiard Organization/Tour to bring Pocket Billiards to the next level.
I have a vision of an organization supported, and founded by it's members whose ultimate goal is a competitive professional billiards tour. This organization will allow anyone who wants to participate in a professional tournament to do so, as long as they are a member of the organization, and pay the entry fee.
My challenge to all that read this: Tell five people this week about the idea of a new billiards tour forming. Tell them to respond here at this site to "The New Billiards Tour" post and if they are interested, to reply and leave their name and address. If you come in contact with someone who does not have access to a computer, offer to take their information and post it for them if they would be in favor of such a tour. Also, tell everyone you come in contact with to tell five other people about the idea.
This list can be used as a tool used later to show proof of interest to potential sponsors and such.
Regards, <hr></blockquote>

Unfortunately Steve, I think the majority of pool players are too skeptical to leave their name and address. For a while I even stopped posting my e-mail address because of abusive material sent to me.

If you doubt my opinion, look at the profiles of our posters -- most with only a partial name at best, most without a location, most without an e-mail address and some don't even provide a profile.


03-10-2002, 11:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Troy:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: TheShot:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; Hello all,
I am serious about starting a revolutionary Billiard Organization/Tour to bring Pocket Billiards to the next level.
I have a vision of an organization supported, and founded by it's members whose ultimate goal is a competitive professional billiards tour. This organization will allow anyone who wants to participate in a professional tournament to do so, as long as they are a member of the organization, and pay the entry fee.
My challenge to all that read this: Tell five people this week about the idea of a new billiards tour forming. Tell them to respond here at this site to "The New Billiards Tour" post and if they are interested, to reply and leave their name and address. If you come in contact with someone who does not have access to a computer, offer to take their information and post it for them if they would be in favor of such a tour. Also, tell everyone you come in contact with to tell five other people about the idea.
This list can be used as a tool used later to show proof of interest to potential sponsors and such.
Regards, &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Unfortunately Scott, I think the majority of pool players are too skeptical to leave their name and address. For a while I even stopped posting my e-mail address because of abusive material sent to me.

If you doubt my opinion, look at the profiles of our posters -- most with only a partial name at best, most without a location, most without an e-mail address and some don't even provide a profile.

Troy <hr></blockquote>

My sincere apologies to Scott for using the wrong name. Surely an instance of "CRS" on my part..... :0

03-11-2002, 12:20 AM
Dr. D, just based on your suggestions / responses to this thread alone, it's hard to believe that the WPBA board chose not to take advantage of your wealth of knowledge and experience to strengthen their organization / tour in these specific areas in which they so desperately needed it. - Chris in NC

03-11-2002, 12:45 AM
Diana and all those participating in this particular string contributing positive ideas for billiard growth,

Excellent and nutritious food for thought! Breaking through the sport "glass ceiling", to borrow a phrase, is all of our next challenge. The conversation has come up recently between several friends and I since the Winter Olympics regarding other less "main stream" sports which have representation in the games and some of the issues which have prevented cue sports from being added. This is an example of your wonderful skyscraper analogy. There are many hardworking pool and billiard lovers all over the world professional, amatuer, industry-wide who would like to see our beloved sport to grow and are working towards that goal. It will be through us all working together inventively that will help us to take a step in that direction.

Thank you all for this conversation!


03-11-2002, 06:54 AM
A successful tour is possible if you run it as a business. Chessemouse, the WPBA is a sinking ship because they do not have professional management. Pool players who think they know what they are doing, and we all know they do not, are running the WPBA like a social tea party and clique. Start a tour with passionate people. Then turn the management of the tour over to people who know how to manage business and money. I also agree, if she would accept the full time position, the Dr. Sorrentino would be ideal at the operational and financial helm of this new tour. Count me in!


03-11-2002, 07:05 AM
Good morning Shot:

I have E-Mailed a link to this post to approximately 100 recipients from my E-Mail address book. This listing included pool players, business associates, investors and the like. Everyone on this forum should do the same.

Shot, keep up the good work.

Dr. D.

03-11-2002, 07:18 AM
You are correct- a successful tour definitely needs a business manager, corporate sponsors,and people who generally LOVE the game and are willing to volunteer their time to help support it-as for putting it into schools, that is an idea, but only as a sport CHOICE-no child should be made to HAVE to play pool-pool is a very mental and frustrating game, although I've seen many young players play great because there is NO FEAR when they shoot- and then it depends on what type of pool flourishment you are regarding too! Tournament or bar? I say, Bar is out!(Unless 21+ and league) Thats just my personal opinion-bar play is for fun,drinking and having a good time-tournament is the more serious player who is looking to GO PRO!Also, sponsors must have some kind of recourse in sponsoring-their are so many ways-hopefully dr. D will find one /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif!

03-11-2002, 09:25 AM
Making a connection between pool/billiards, junior players or potential players (which is the future base of the sport and industry) and area community outreach all over the country is important to expanding the sport. This can be done by anyone from the Pros down. Many professional players and organizations already work in this area, such as the BCA. However, there is room for a more grass-roots participation. A friend of mine, a room owner in Virginia, has this brilliant idea, which he is taking to his area ISD (Independent School District) point of contact. Utilizing the connection between pool/billiards with Geometry and Physics, he is developing a program where a field trip of high school students would come to his poolroom. The focus of the trip would be showing the students the relationship between the sport + Math and Science. Demonstrations would take place while the teacher explains the more technical aspects in relationship to Math and Science with the pool player who is doing the demonstration. This promotes the sport in a healthy manner as well as shows the students that Geometry and Physics can be applicable in our daily world and in unexpected ways. When he asked me to work with him on the program recently I thought it was fantastic and felt honored to participate. This is an example of creative outreach that almost all roomowners, league operators, tournament and tour operators can encourage, organize and particpate in which will help grow the sport. I applaud my friend Dave for his devotion to the sport and expanding it with ideas such as this as well as a wonderful in-house family league he hosts once a week. (any room owners listening out there : )...Thanks to all who work towards expanding the sport.

03-11-2002, 12:58 PM
We need fresh ideas and focused leadership. The mens tour is a disaster. The women are sinking like a rock. Who would be willing and able to run this new tour.


03-11-2002, 02:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Troy::</font><hr>My sincere apologies to Scott for using the wrong name. Surely an instance of "CRS" on my part..... :0 <hr></blockquote>
Hi Troy,

You were well within the time frame allowed to "edit" your post and fix this without having to make another post that showcases your error! If you realize you made a mistake that you wish you could take back, just read your post, and where most posts have "reply" and "quote" near the top right, your post will also include "edit" if it is still in the edit timeframe. Clicking that allows you to edit your original post and no one has to know that you goofed in the first place!

I would have responded via personal mail, but I think others can benefit from this as well. (Like maybe JimS who typed "BAC" instead of "BCA" and then had to put in a whole new note just to tell us?:)

03-11-2002, 02:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TheShot:</font><hr> How about an annual membership dues, with an associate subscription to a Billiard Themed magazine (not to name any names /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif ) which would come with an "Official Rulebook" and the right to participate in any of the events.
I firmly believe that the tournaments should be left as an "Open" field. If a member wants to participate in the tournament, and pays the entry fee, great! Let us all play!
That sounds a lot like the local APA league!
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TheShot:</font><hr>The Divisions should be seeded to eliminate the possibility of one division having all top ten touring pros in the same division.
Why? I've heard/read that type of thing before. I wonder, if seeding is insisted on (I prefer random all the way around), if it would be better to seed the top players together rather than splitting them out, thereby giving the *other* paying entrants a better chance at advancing a little farther in the tournament rather than just the cream of the crop? That may not make sense, but it would knock a few of the heavy hitters out earlier, leaving room for a few other players. Just a thought...

03-11-2002, 02:38 PM
Devils Advocate,I can't stop thinking about this subject of a New Pro Tour and I can't get over the hurdle of 'what would I support for the love of the sport?' I'm not wise enough to suggest how it should be but I do know what I wouldn't beable to support. Any new tour that seeded, gave preference too or in anyway kiss the butt of any recognized professional, man or woman. If it isn't open to any and all qualifiers than it won't be a New tour. I'm sure that some of the prima donnas and prima dannys would scoff at the prospect of lowering themselves to qualify for an event but that is the price of my unselfish altruist support. This is a grassroots idea and I think we have to leave the old and unworkable behind.

03-11-2002, 05:20 PM
Hello all,
Great feedback guys! That is what's needed. Absolutely nothing is set in stone Keep the ideas coming,

03-12-2002, 06:33 AM
Good morning Scott:

Please contact me to discuss your post and some of the comments and feed back which have been shared with me. My E-Mail is in my profile.

Dr. D.

03-12-2002, 06:39 AM
Good morning:

From the response to this thread, coupled with discussions which have been shared with my by numerous individuals inside and outside the Billiards industry, there is an interest in launching a broad based and well managed National Tour.

Who would be willing to donate some time, thoughts, research and energy to this project. If interested,please contact either Scott "The Shot" or myself via E-Mail or the CCB message system.

YOU can make this happen if YOU are willing to put some energy where your mouth is!

Dr. D.

(Being direct and blunt as usual)

Rich R.
03-12-2002, 06:51 AM
Dr. D. I'm not sure if you are aware of it, but Jay M., a CCB poster, has been working on starting a new tour for quite some time. At one time, he published a complete plan on his website, http://www.pooltournamentcentral.com/
Unfortunately, I don't believe it is still there. Jay has not provided us with an update on his progress lately. Maybe if he is following this thread, he can share something with us. From his plan and other postings here, it appeared that he was well on his way to establishing a first class tour. Rich R.

03-12-2002, 07:01 AM
Good morning Chris:

Excellent Question!

However, not every patient with a life threatening illness will seek help from a qualified professional. Those individuals, the ones who believe the the problem will "Go Away" on its own, may eventually regret their procrastination. Then again, when someone has been broadsided by an 18 wheeler, they end up receiving the life saving care they require because the decision is no longer their's to make.

Between the years of 1997 and January of 2001, many businesses were making money hands over fist in-spite of their managerial incompetence and/or the flaws in their business models. NOW, since the bottom has fallen out of the economy for many of these businesses, I receive calls on a weekly basis from business owners and investors seeking a miracle cure for their dying business. Unfortunately, for many of these businesses, by the time they decide to call on someone like myself their condition is terminal. Better late the never does not work in matters of business and finance.

Most entrepreneurs are excellent at what they do and what they know. However, they are brain dead when it comes to managing an organization and its human resources.

Just Rambling ...

Dr. D.

Jay M
03-12-2002, 07:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Unfortunately, I don't believe it is still there. Jay has not provided us with an update on his progress lately. Maybe if he is following this thread, he can share something with us. From his plan and other postings here, it appeared that he was well on his way to establishing a first class tour. Rich R. <hr></blockquote>

Actually, that one is still there, but outdated now. Dr. D has the latest copy as do the WPBA and the UPA. I'm still working on pulling it all together, however I have run into a few stumbling blocks that I have to get past. I'll let you know all about it when the time is right. Until all of the money is in-hand, I really don't have anything except an idea.

Jay M

Rich R.
03-12-2002, 07:49 AM
Thanks for the update Jay. I understand why you can not say much, but I'm happy to hear that you are still working on it and I hope those stumbling blocks are small. I think you know that we are all rooting for you. Although you say that, for now, you only have an idea, I will say that it is a great idea. Keep plugging away at it and I know you will be successful.
Maybe you and Dr. D. can pull your resources and find a way to make it work? It may be a good partnership. Rich R.

03-12-2002, 06:43 PM
You can help pool grow by including all the little people who want to make it to the big time.


03-13-2002, 02:36 PM
We can make pool flourish by supporting the game and the sport financially and promotionally thus making it attractive to investors. I am willing to put up money, $100 $500 $1000 to make it work. Will you?


03-14-2002, 02:50 PM
Hello all,

In your opinion, what is a fair FLAT annual membership fee required to be a member and compete in all of the tournaments in a professional tour? The WPBA has different rates for different caliber players. I find it strange that, inside their organization, the more a player participates and performs in their tour, the more the player has to pay to compete(granted sponsors may pick up the tab, but that's not my point).
Share your opinions please. I was thinking somewhere around $150.00 a year. Too low or too high? Let me know.

03-14-2002, 06:41 PM
The USPPA is an organization in place doing a fairly good job supporting 9-Ball. They are an organization that gathers the data for handicapping and puts on a handicap tournament twice a year in conjunction with the two Reno/Sands Open Tournaments (May and December).

While the USPPA is now primarily in California and Nevada, Tony Annigoni ("Playing Off The Rail") is now heavily involved with the organization attempting to expand its Pool Room base and membership base.

I understand that there will soon be USPPA supported 1-Pocket and 8-Ball Handicap systems in place in addition to 9-Ball.

More information is available at www.usppa.com (http://www.usppa.com) (The snail-mail address listed is incorrect)


03-14-2002, 11:13 PM
You ask HOW MUCH? I ask.. HOW MUCH for WHAT?

What does an annual Membership Fee get you? Even if there are Professional Trounaments every month in a different City, many could not afford the traveling, hotel and food, and $500 entry fee.

You don't need an annual membership fee, now, to play in any Professional tournament (US Open, Derby City Classic, etc.)

The regional tours have a nonimal $15 or $25 annual membership fee. But, these are not the Professional tournaments I assume you mean.

03-15-2002, 12:10 AM
Hello Tom,
The WPBA's multiple membership fees are as follows:

Amatuer/Regional membership fee 35.00

Semi-pro 100.00

Pro 150.00

Active pro 200.00

Touring pro 250.00

I believe that an organization that takes the time to set up multiple touring stops, seeks out sponsors, and offers a tour where the top players can make a decent living from tour winnings, the members should have some sort of annual financial support from the members. Don't you agree?
The organization of the tour will not be free either( it is rather expensive).
Can you give me an example of any professional individual sports venue that does not have an annual membership fee?
The "vision" I have churning around in my head will have tournament payouts to the top 64 players with a payout total that exceeds $120,000 from sponsor money alone! With 64th place taking home more than the the tournament entry fee, and annual membership fee combined.
Please, don't take my reply as being harsh. I thank you for the constructive criticism.

Take aim and follow through!

03-15-2002, 10:28 AM
I agree with you that the bottom bracket has to pay expenses for the three or four days the event may take up or the tour won't flourish

03-15-2002, 03:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TheShot:</font><hr> Hello Tom,
I believe that an organization that takes the time to set up multiple touring stops, seeks out sponsors, and offers a tour where the top players can make a decent living from tour winnings, the members should have some sort of annual financial support from the members. Don't you agree?
Can you give me an example of any professional individual sports venue that does not have an annual membership fee?


Promoters get their money up front.. for the work they do raising sponsers for the events venue.. Is this going to be part of your orgainization? If so, then I would suggest that their fees be tied to their sucess in getting the sponsers and part of the gate. In fact the whole orgainization could base its Operating expenses on the GATE alone.. If you are sucessful.. then you have your money..

Membership fees usually offer something in return for your money.. What are you suppose to get for your annual membership fee? It should be something tangible.

I don't believe there is any individual (the PROS of these sports) annual Membership fee for the NBA, MLB, NFL, NHL, Tennis, Golf or Bowling.. or did I misinterpret your question?

03-15-2002, 03:34 PM
Hi Tom,
The team sports you mentioned,MLB NBA NHL NFL, the players, of course, do not pay a membership fee. I also can't say for sure if the team owners have to pay a certain amt to their offiliated leagues or not. Tennis, not sure of. Golf yes, Bowling yes WPBA yes. All forms of organized motorsports require a membership fee as well.
As for something tangible... it is my ambition to have all members receive a 10% discount from all of the associated sponsors just for being a member.
Thanks Tom,

03-15-2002, 05:58 PM
Tom is right, pool needs to be introduced and more available to the younger generation. I'm in college now and I just took over as the president of my school's billiard club. The problem, I've noticed at least around my own campus, is not in attraction to the game, but keeping it interested. As we all know pool is addictive but newcomers to the game dont understand how well it can be played. They are unaware of the intracy of english and the strategy invovled in running balls. They need to be shown either by intruction or example different games and how to progress skill-wise in the game. Professionals visiting campuses would help greatly to attract new faces but teachers are needed to keep them playing.

03-15-2002, 07:00 PM
Great question.

The biggest problem I see is the catch-22 of sponsorship.

As example, I'm eligible to play in WPBA events, but I don't. To date, sponsors are only interested in endorsing "top players" (and understandably so). To develop my game to that "top-player" level, I'd need to compete in the events that other top-players compete in. However, I can't afford those events without a sponsor. (The cost of entry fees, monthly airfare trips virtually all over the country, 3-4 nights lodging each month.)

In short, I can't get a sponsor until I reach that arena, but I can't reach that arena without a sponsor.

One solution would be more sponsorship at the developing player level.

Another problem is that most players don't make enough money to make pool a full-time career. I'm not up to date on the men's side, but on the women's side, only a handful of women are earning enough to actually live on.....to make pool a full-time career. Compare that to, say, tennis. The #50-ranked female player earned $181,000 last year; the #50-ranked male player earned $426,000 last year. Both are MORE than "livable" wages. Not so in pool.

I'd really be interested in any solutions anyone might offer to the issue to benefit us all.

03-15-2002, 07:17 PM
I've tried to float this idea a few times myself.

Pool in school SHOULD be a natural. Gym teachers are always drooling, warm and fuzzy about finding an "off-peak" sport to promote in gym....(for those that still even offer gym). It could also serve as an outlet to keep kids out of trouble.

If everyone chipped in, it would work.

Schools: create an interest in forming pool teams (akin to
golf teams/chess teams). Utilize the recreation/gym departments to spearhead the effort. Principals could send an open letter to parents explaining the goal of forming a pool team and highlight the benefits to the parents (keeping kids off the street, promoting team play and discipline to learn the game).

Local pool rooms: Work with the schools by offering a "student rate" during off-peak hours. You could require students to either provide proof of membership on the school team, or schools could provide you with a quarterly list of eligible players. Not only will you benefit by getting some nominal revenue stream in your off-peak hours, but you are helping to create a passion for the sport that will result in lifetime paying clients when they grow up.

Pros: donate some time to play with school teams in pro-am events a few times a year. Nothing to inspire other players like meeting an icon.

03-15-2002, 09:26 PM
Good evening:

If you or anyone else were starting a business you would need your own capital (cash) to begin the development of the plan and its implementation. Investors, regardless of how viable your product or service is, will want to know what YOU have invested in yourself. Why would an investor invest in your company if you hjave not invested in yourself? Why sould the investor take all the risk?

Sponsors are NO different. You want a tour and you want our (the sponsor's) money. Question? What is the tour worth to you and what are you willing to invest in yourself? If you are not willing to invest in yourself, and fund the initial development and launch of a tour, then why should a sponsor place their money on the table.

Over the previous 5 years I helped raise over $100 million for expanding and start up businesses. In each and every case the investors would only step in when the "principals" had invested their own money and/or funds raised through grass roots activities.

Just a little more food for thought.

Dr. D.

03-17-2002, 02:05 AM
What would be the first step that we should take.

03-17-2002, 12:17 PM
Good afternoon:

Individuals, who are serious and committed to a new tour, should sit down together and share ideas in a brainstoring session. Then, when they think that they have an idea and/or model which would prove workable, find an administrator to take the helm and coordinate financial and operational activities.

This IS a process which will require a minimum of 12 to 18 months to complete.

Dr. D.

03-17-2002, 04:13 PM
As an attorney I have worked with several start ups and I must agree with Dr. Sorrentino. You need people who are willing to donate time and energy to getting things going and the people must be diverse in knowledge and experience. I also agree with Dr. Sorrentino on the points she made about investors and sponsors. Pick your people well and get to work getting ideas together. Then bring in someone who can pull it together and work with sponsors on a professional level. From what I have read of Dr. Sorrentino from her website she is the person for you to hire. I am sure she does not come cheap but she would be worth it in my opinion.


03-18-2002, 07:18 AM
WE can make Pool flourish by action and not only talk. Good ideas have been talked about here so now it is time to stop being arm chair quarterbacks and do something.

Just tell me when, where and who.


03-18-2002, 09:54 AM
Hi Michael,
I am working on it /ccboard/images/icons/laugh.gif

03-18-2002, 07:50 PM
I just received my 2nd issue of Inside Pool and there is an article in there about pool in school. Del Campo High School in Sacramento, CA allows 70 to take the class each year and 200 apply for the class. Students meet at Hardtimes Billiards for an hour and a half M-F. According to the article the BCA and the BEF, the charitable arm of the BCA, are involved in getting pool into the schools. Jake

03-19-2002, 06:59 AM
Good morning:

A guaranteed way to make certain that Pool would NOT flourish is to allow the type of gambling which took place at Valley Forge. Players, professional and amatuers alike, should NEVER participate in such an activity at a public event.

Dr. D.

03-19-2002, 11:32 PM
Hello all,
As my initial research and planning continues, a mental stumbling block occurred. I was planning an event itenerary, starting from Day #1 (Thurs) through Sun. (the finals).
The field model I used had a field of 250 playing on 36 tables. This got extremely complex, trying to think of ways to accomodate for all players (local) and their time schedules to qualify for eliminations. Plus, in order to get all the flights played requires matches nearly around the clock. This may be great for "the fans" but the question arises, will places big enough to host such an event (hotel convention centers) allow for "late night" operation?
Then, all this pondering led to another thought. What would happen if 500 players wanted to participate? (this may be classified as an optimistic problem, but after hearing the number of amateurs in attendance at VF, it got my attn). I thought to myself, if this event is promoted as an open field and you have paid members that want to participate in the tournament but the time constraints make it impossible then what do you do? I had the thought of ok, more tables, which led to another thought.... The expense involved in having a 50 table pool room on wheels traveling the country. The expense of having enough qualified people to set up 36-50 tables in a very short time span. which leads me to where I am now... stalled.
I do have about 20 pages worth of planning typed out. I am currently stalled, any positive ideas?

03-20-2002, 01:56 AM
There's a time and a place for everything imo

Take this into consideration:

Several card games with literally hundreds of dollars on the tables.Take your pick of open games.

POOL ? Several different tables to do your thing ... $5 table over there,$10 table over here,$20 table there,$50 table right here ... just put your quarters on the appropriate table and wait your turn to hustle or get hustled.

They even had a $100 table with a crowd of maybe 200 sweaters, money in hands(yelling-cursing-screeching) 'who likes the challenger' 'I like the breaker' 'bet 20 he gets out' 'bet 50 he doesn't get out' 'give me a 100 to one and I'll bet he mis-cues' bet on this- bet on that- bet,bet,bet,gamble,gamble,gamble

... And then we wonder why no one outside the industry wants to be associated with pool?

Because we're fools and rather dumb ones at that

03-20-2002, 06:38 AM
Good morning:

I recall seeing several posts, prior to the format change on the CCB, which might address your questions. Visit the archives to see what is available.

Dr. D.

03-20-2002, 01:38 PM
You are right, Dr. D. I have believed for a long time that Pool will remain what it is (a 2nd class, no-money, no-publicity, no-respect sport) until it's image changes.

And that image has to be changed at all levels. Unfortunately, there is little that can be done at the local Pool hall level. That won't change unless they see it change at other levels.

Here is what I think would make a big start in changing Pool's image, and making it start to flourish:

Come up with a tour that has money that the player's can't refuse. Something like an 8-stop annual tour, with a 1st place at each stop of $100,000, with a year-end bonus of $1,000,000 for the top ranked player. With money like that, the players can't pass the tour up.

Now rule that tour with an iron fist.

If you show up to a match drunk (which I have seen more than one well-known pro do), you are off the tour. Come back next year.

If you are caught gambling on Pool ANYTIME AND ANYWHERE during an event, you are off the tour. Come back next year. If you want your shot at the $100,000, then you can go for 48 hours without gambling. Other pro sports prohibit gambling on their sport. Pool should too.

No smoking anywhere on the premises during the event. If you can't make it through your match without a cigarette, then go see a doctor to get some nicotiene gum.

Follow the dress code! The dress code says x, and y, and z. It doesn't say "really wrinkled slacks, with a wrinkled shirt, that isn't even tucked in." If you show up out of the dress code, too bad. You lost that match. Go change for your loser's side match.

No arguing during the match. Behave like adults. If there is a discrepancy, then a referee will settle it. If a player argues with a referee, they just lost that match. Better luck next time.

If you walk out of a match in a huff (gee, that's never happened before), you are off the tour. Come back next year.

Pool players complain all the time about the lack of money in the sport. Some of these players are really great people. But some need to look in the mirror.

03-20-2002, 02:06 PM
to do than trying to help people who can't and won't help themselves. the pool playing elite can't even get on the same page themselves, are too selfish to think about anyone but themselves, are little babies who look for the quick hustle. and so you want to unite the public, who hold down real jobs, to help THESE guys?

if the pool watching public, that's us, had that much power, it would have been tapped into by now. this is just a small vocal community here at ccb.

and i, for one, have more important things on my mind than helping pool players make more money.

03-20-2002, 02:17 PM
The bottom line is your 3 or 4 million dollar payout for the year Mike.

Where's it coming from ?

Did your bankers and potential sponsors just get back from VF?

I'm sure they were impressed with the upstairs ambience and amused with the downstairs hell.

Who in their right mind would not want to throw away a few million to the hooligans,hustlers,and crack head losers that infiltrated VF last week?

My guess is that it's all about today's receipts.This sport is going nowhere 'REPEAT NOWHERE' if events like VF is allowed to flaunt our worst clientele in conditions that are perilous to our sport's future.

Someone really dropped the ball at VF this year.Sad

03-20-2002, 02:32 PM
Where's it coming from? Good question.

My point was more of a "what if" in terms of what it would take to make Pool flourish. If Pool is going to be accepted as a serious professional sport, then it needs to be conducted in a serious professional manner.

I agree 100% with your statement: "This sport is going nowhere 'REPEAT NOWHERE' if events like VF is allowed to flaunt our worst clientele in conditions that are perilous to our sport's future."

03-20-2002, 03:28 PM
try looking at www.BCA-POOL.COM (http://www.BCA-POOL.COM) goto instructors and you will find a very large number of certified instructors, looking for coaches? BCA also certifies coaches. how about academies? BCA also has them.
doesn't that sound like an organization that is not only trying to better the sport but also improve the player skills.
When teaching pool how many hours would an APA instructor spend on "sandbagging"?????

03-20-2002, 03:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: arnie:</font><hr>
and i, for one, have more important things on my mind than helping pool players make more money. <hr></blockquote>

Finally, a response that makes sense. Jake

03-30-2002, 04:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Mike:</font><hr> I have believed for a long time that Pool will remain what it is (a 2nd class...sport) until it's image changes. And that image has to be changed at all levels. Unfortunately, there is little that can be done at the local Pool hall level. That won't change unless they see it change at other levels. Come up with a tour that has money that the player's can't refuse <hr></blockquote>Mike, I couldn't disagree with you more. The popularity of any sport does not start by creating a professional leauge. On the contrary, professional leagues develop because of grass root interest and a fan base. This base must be developed in pool halls. Where else could it start, except in schools and playgrounds with outdoor tables as I suggested earlier?

What amazes me is that more pool halls haven't already done what every bowling alley in America does. Form an intramural leauge for in-house play. An alternate or complementary idea is to form inter-pool hall leagues where the pool hall forms teams that play in a different local pool halls on a rotating basis. There is almost no cost for the pool hall. The team members will pay for table time, buy their own team shirts if they want them, provide their own cuesticks and travel arrangements. All the pool hall has to do is provide the organization for an organized competition and pay for a few cheap trophies to hand out periodically, and many players will leap into the program just for the opportunity to compete in an organized format. If you want to have money prizes, then an entry fee into the league would be charged so the players are paying for their own prizes. The pool halls could kick in a little something, but would more than make it up with the table time sold and the extra table time players would rent because of their increased motivation to practice for the competition.

It is imperative to stimulate competition at the local level to generate the kind of player and fan base that will support competition at the professional level. It doesn't happen the other way around.

03-30-2002, 04:17 AM
If money grew on trees then it would be simple. Speaking as a member of the general public, I don't think any major sponsorship will ever be in pools future. Too many players have an unprofessional attitude and nobody from the general public wants to see or hear it. When one of the better players loses how many times do you hear; the tables was too slow, dead rails, poor light, too noisy, etc etc. They never seem to say the other guy was better on that day. Until the lack of etiquette is addressed and the players attitudes improve don't look for any major sponsor coming forward. If the truth hurts, so be it.

#### leonard
03-30-2002, 02:41 PM
Folks I have maintained for years now almost 40 that all pool had to do was copy the pro-golfers format of running all tourneys for charities. The only golf tourneys not run for charity are run by the USGA, US Open,PGA,Masters by itself and the British Open. Most companies love sponsoring an event where a charity receives the proceeds. They involve the right people in promoting the event.
Now in golf there is a prize fund explosion and some cities are not going to be able to run events because they will not be able to draw the crowds necessary to pay the 5 million dollar purses. This creates an opening for pool to step into but I know that this will never happen because if after 75 years pool hasn't figured it out they never will.####

03-31-2002, 07:26 AM
one can dream up a ton of ways for pool flourish, thinking if other sports can do it, so can pool.

it's a fantasy. the core group of great players are a bunch of losers, who dropped out of high school, can't get along with each other, hustle anyone and everyone they can, and all perpetuate the rotten image this great game is stuck with. everything in life is cause and effect.

03-31-2002, 08:25 AM
There is probably a great deal of truth in what Arnie says. It seems that even the great players, who are really good for the game, still would rather get in a back room one on one for the big bucks. But the only way pool can make it in the big time is to find a way to attract spectators - fans. How many people do you know will pay a few bucks to watch the pros play? Supposedly there are 200,000 people signed up with the APA. I'll bet you can't get 1,000 of them to pay to watch someone else play pool. The fan is the one who brings the money into the game. Without the fans you can forget about pool getting into the big time. Pool has to offer a product that the fans will buy. And right now they are not doing it. It doesn't take a pool room owner long to realize that if he puts up $2,500 for a tournament, loses another $500 in table rents, and another $1,000 in bar sales and food sales because the players are just drinking water and going down the street to eat, that he is losing money and wasting his time. Especially if the tournament does not draw any fans. Maybe if there were more tournaments like the Patriot Cup down in Tampa where they had about 100 people who paid to see the "show" and spent money on food and drinks pool would have a chance. I believe that you have to find a format that is attractive to the fans. Forget trying to make the players happy. Players are a dime a dozen. First you have to attract the fans. Jake

03-31-2002, 09:13 AM
Just a crazy thought, but maybe we could model ourselfs after the WWF. We could have good guys and villains, and let the opponents pummel each other with pool sticks, and rassle on the tables. Perhaps, they could smash each other over the head with beer bottles. I've seen shows like this in some of the local taverns. LOL J/K

03-31-2002, 09:16 AM
You can put thousands of people on a golf course. Charge them for parking, admission and food and make some serious money. You put one thousand people around a pool table and 900 of them can't see what is happening. TV is the only hope for pool. How do you guarantee that one of the players might not just walk out in the middle of the live, televised finals? Unfortunately you can't. Perhaps it doesn't matter. A boxer can get millions for biting off his opponents ear on live TV. Mike Tyson did get paid, didn't he? I hope not.

03-31-2002, 05:41 PM
forget the pool players, who we all know will just bitch and cry,,,,and concentrate on the spectators. if pool starts to grow significantly, the players will reluctantly give in.

heck,,,the players might even act and dress with decorum. i heard strickland was very polite in the last straight pool tourney in new york city. so there's hope,,,,,,,,,maybe....arnie

03-31-2002, 05:43 PM

03-31-2002, 05:54 PM
,,,ie, you can't tell what balls are what.

thing is,,,no one but us aficionados are willing to watch a man with a stick walk around a 5x10 table.

i think a LOYAL following, that's small groups like this one at ccb and around the country and around the world, MIGHT be able to support a cable channel.

forget places like espn ot whatever, there are too many commercial issues involved, and it would never get off the ground. the ONLY support i see is at the grass roots level....that's us.

personally, i'm not willing to pay any more than enough to watch good pool on tv. in other words, money that would go towards equipment and the logistics of getting this off the ground. i don't want to see ANYONE lining their pockets. this is for the fans.

if it evolves beyond that,,,,,,,,fine.

04-01-2002, 03:42 AM
To TheShot: I'm very glad for the opportunity to express my possibly unpopular views on the subject you posted. I'm sure I'm going to step on somones toes, but it's what I believe so here goes! I need to clarify the "WE" , I'm using this word to mean "pool players" regardless of their ability to play the game. In my life time, I'd have to say they've been their own worse enemy! Pool players in my opinion have "all the power", but no one ever organized it. If there's one statement you made that hit home with me is the potential power here at the CCB. It never existed before and I hope it really catches on.

I read most of the responses to your requests and I agree with the majority of people and their suggestions, however I'd like to offer another approach- that a player can easily do and make a real difference. What I'd like them to do is bitch, moan, complain, say what's on their mind and not be scared to ask for constructive changes!

We've got to start somewhere. Here's where I'm heading with this. For a sport to flourish it needs an amateur foundation! Pool's amateur foundation is "Bar Pool", which has become very popular with many participants, but I can't let myself call it "real pool" and its not just the fact that it's played predominately on a smaller table than most pool rooms. A comparison I'd like to make is golf. I'm definitely an average golfer and play from the white tees, while the pros play back at the gold tees. But we both play "real golf". Golf has a strong amature basis which makes it possible for the pros to exist because of the large numbers of amatures buying products and paying green fees. While at the same time pool has its amateurs playing a "very" different game. I'm not downing the use of a physically different cue ball. The manufacturers did the best they could a the time, because if one scratched the table had to find a way to return the ball. Make it heavier, bigger or place a metal plug and use a magnet to make the distinction. Now Diamond has developed a method to use a regular cue ball. People are constantly asking me to retrofit their coin op with my sensor and if money was my only driving force that wouldn't be a bad option, but there are other problems that need to be taken care of to turn pool into a sport and make the transition from an amature to a pro much easier. Pool was meant in my opinion to be played with a regular cue ball, level slate, good rails, cloth and lighting-In fact similar quality equipment as in "good" pool rooms.

I'm not trying to just promote the Diamond Smart Table, for there are way too many tables that need replaced for me to handle by myself. I'm offering my sensor to other manufacturers if certain other qualities of play are maintained.

Then where does the money come from to make pool flourish? I can't wait any longer for some title sponser to make all our dreams come true. Infact it's always been the players themselves that had to put up their own money to make a tournament possible, for the most part, and will continue unless we try something different.
Think back, who's made most of the money from bar pool?
The Vendor; and how much have they put back into the sport. Or have they even kept their equipment in good shape! I'ts time for the players to speak up! If the equipment is in terrible shape don't play! I know that sounds drastic, but some things need to happen. Threaten their pocket book and things will happen. I also think the skirts of bar tables have been overlooked as a perfect billboard for advertising a product in a bar. Much better than advertising on the lights or cloth (this is a sacred area for me and shouldn't have any writing on it, anyway its often covered with balls and after the cloth wears it looks like XXXX). Money generated from this space as advertising could go a long way to funding pool tournaments and give a sponser something tangable that would even reach non pool players setting at the bar. I would shutter to think how much one would have to pay to rent the space required for a pool table in the center of a bar to advertise their product!

The BCA needs to find a way to use a regulation cue ball. Open the tables and charge a greens fee or supply 3 extra cue balls in case of scratches. Pool, amateur or professional, requires the use of a standard cue ball. Pool players need to let them know they care about the conditions they play under. Diamond sees the amateur league market as a starting point to generate enough funding to sponser a pro and an amateur tour. At least we can use a significant amount of money generated from placement of equipment thru sales or leasing to lay a foundation upon which other companies can join and make pool all it can be!

I've just signed a contrac with the APA and for the next 5 years Diamond tables will be used in their major events. The press release will be coming soon. It's my goal to what I call "Bridge the Gap" between amateur and professional pool. I believe all bar tables will be using a regular cue ball in the future. How long this takes depends on the pool players! They have the power to make this happen for they influence more people than they realize. They put the coins in the tables, buy food and drinks and support many people they don't even realize. If these pool players really care about their sport and conditions, they need to let all manufacturers know what they care about and these manufacturers will have to try and meet your needs or go out of business. USE YOUR POWER!!! I intend to work with all leagues and try to improve quality of play on all size tables.

04-01-2002, 06:49 AM
Good morning:

Another key component, to making any Tour flourish, is patience! We have become a society which demands and requires immediate gratification. As such, with all of the developmental work and grass roots efforts which would be needed, NO results of significance would be seen for several years. Fortune 500 companies are built, over time, on solid foundarions. The DOT.Coms; which very quickly became DOT.Bombs, proved to be nothing more then a flash in the pan because they had no foundation or substance. Establish a plan, setting realistic goals and objectives, and then implement the strategy in order to build the organization. Only greedy investors (venture capitlists), individuals seeking big returns with-in a short peiod of time at the expense of the company and public investors, benefit from hype and speculation and the absence of any viable long term plans, goals and objectives.

Just some Additional food for Thought!

Dr. D.

04-01-2002, 09:24 AM
Greg, I know the guy who supplies/maintains the bar tables around here and he told me that right now there are replacement CB's for the old big balls and coin-op balls. For all tables except for one manufacture. The replacement CB seems just like a regular CB. At our Moose Lodge we still use the Big Ball and I am looking into if it can be replaced with a regular size one. Jake

04-01-2002, 04:43 PM
jjinfla, Sorry to hear you still have to use the Big Ball. I am aware of the ball that is being used to replace the Big Ball. It is definitely an improvement to what you've been using, but doesn't have the playability of a regulation cue ball. The replacement ball for the most part is the same size as the object balls which is a definite plus, but the metal core inside the ball used with a magnet to detect the ball often is not centered correctly an doesn't allow the ball to roll true. Many cue balls have a plug you can actually see.These balls are especially prone to eratic rolls. There are other differences that affect play. Even though you may find a ball that is the same size an weight it often seems to play heavier or draw easier. This is due to the composition of the ball, what I call elasticity. You can drop 2 balls from the same heigth and one will bounce higher than the other. This ball is said to be more elastic and you will find that it is much easier to draw this ball, but more difficult to follow. With increased speed it will take a wider path after contacting the object ball due to the extra bounce it receives. I hope I'm not confusing anyone. I still believe the cue ball is at its best if unaltered. The main point I was trying to make in my previous post was even with a correction of a proper cue ball, changes still need to be made to our bar tables. I think they've served their purposes well, but now they should be retired and made to play more closely to their 9 foot counterparts. I only hope I can get the help from other manufacturers to make this change possible. And I am definitely interested to find out how much the amature pool player really cares about level tables, correct pocket openings, good cloth etc.!!!

04-01-2002, 05:37 PM
just where IS the money coming from. yeah,,,anyone organizing a million dollar tour would be immediatley declared GOD, and all the players would bend over backwards to do HIS bidding. yes,,,one man could change pool, but it will never happen.

eventually, that kind of "one source" backing would die out because you need tv and the public to change their views.

04-01-2002, 05:48 PM
there are basically two types of pool participants. those that really love the game,,,that's us.......and those who participate in local leagues,,,that's the remaining 99.99999%. THEY play the game on a very cursory, social level and have no interest in pool beyond that. go to a room with a league, and ask anyone to name professional players. they will only say"the black widow",,,the older ones might say "steve mizerak". go to ebay and check out all the cues on auction. 99% are budweiser cues.

and these are the people who actually play pool now and again. they have no interest in professional pool. they just want to drink beer and have fun.

04-03-2002, 07:44 PM
How can we make pool flourish?

Nice ideas. Good discussion. When will there be action?


04-04-2002, 12:10 AM
Scott,after reading many (but not all) the post in this thread;I feel that most of the suggestions mat be good farther down the line. First we need to get local support. If poolhall owners and bar owners would call their local newspapers and report the winners of weekly tournaments,it would have two immediate results. One,more people would show up to play and second more spectators would show up to watch. Believe me,newspapers are always looking for things to print. If you don't believe me, try it. Next would be TV. If the newspapers report local tournaments on a regular basis, TV sportcasters will pick up on it and start reporting results. What this will do is make the public aware that poll isn't played in dirty back rooms. I believe this is the first step. The next step would be local sponsors. Maybe getting a local clothing store or department store to throw a $50 gift certificate into the pot or a garage to throw in an oil change. They could write this off as advertisment. And it would be advertisment since it would be listed with the tournament results as part of the prize package. Just think about it for awhile, the idea has no downside. It cost nothing to call the results into the newspaper. And if the only result is more players entering local tournaments, it's a plus for the people putting the tournaments on. Jim R.

04-04-2002, 06:55 AM
Good morning:

Excellent; Jim I love your ideas and input. Remember the AAGPBL / All American Girls Professional Baseball League? Publicity and public awareness; just like the PGA, LPGA, etc. helped make these and many other organizations a household word.

Dr. D.

04-04-2002, 11:04 PM
If I remember correctly.. the league only lasted 3 years and was virtually unknown until the movie came out and then they were inducted into the Baseball Hall of fame.. WWII was the driving force for the league's beginnings.

My parents went to the games in South Bend Ind..

04-05-2002, 01:19 AM
I dont know about where you play at but the owner of the place i play at could care less about actual players, i think he feels like we are in his way all of the time. All he cares about is making money off of the kids forget the pool players. The problem is he is not a player he is a banger, and he really has no interest in pool per say,its just recreational fun to him. His manager is a decent player but he wont go out of his way to promote anything, because he is lazy. The owner feels like tournaments are tying up his tables from making any money. I have mentioned to him that he can have tournaments and still make money, if he would set it up right, but he doesnt have a clue, and the manager is too stubborn to listen to anyone elses ideas. Boy if i had the time to invest in a PH, i would get one going and do it right. The problem i have with this place is they wont even try new ideas, and if they do they try it once and never try and improve on an idea. They are too easily defeated, no drive to get better. If they had any competition in town it would help. This place has 9 big tables and 14 bar tables and a great iew for spectators, but not much good seating on the floor, so they have the facility to have decent tournaments. Its funny, we cant get 16 guys to come to a local tournament once a week but. they will drive 50 miles to a tournament, because they think the tournament is ran fairer, and it really isnt. the local TD changes peoples handicaps about every other week, and doesnt have them right and wonders why poeple dont want to play in his tournament. I work second shift so i cant run the thing or else i would try to.

I think the local TV stations need to help promote the game a little. I remember as a 13 year old in baseball watching myself on TV, where some local station was televising it. I'll have to look into that. I thought about seeing if i could get pool included in this years local festival in my town. They have everything else, why not a pool tourney. that might give it some local exposer. I need to hit all of the bars and put up flyers and tell them about the local tournament on Wednesday night and just keeep telling them about every 2 weeks with flyers and word of mouth. We are talking about getting an in house Valley league this fall, that may help others get involved from outside the PH, bacause it is 8 ball. I keep telling them they need to have a day for an 8-ball tourney but they dont listen. People out in the bars dont play much 9-ball, so 8-ball might lure them in.

well enough said

04-05-2002, 01:49 AM
Public image is important and pool does have a bad public image. Maybe the way to help pool is to get more movie stars or other public offiacials in the picture. You know though, i talked to a buddy of mine that was trying to go pro as a bowler and he said that most of those pro bowlers are a bunch of drunks with nasty attitudes, sound familiar?
I have heard that golfers are much the same, so what is it about pool that doesnt draw people? Actually every major sport i can think of has athlets that are bad far their particular sports image but they still make it. Look at tennis,basketball, baseball, they all have bad public moments, but theirs makes the highlights.

04-05-2002, 02:03 AM
Maybe we need to get pool into the public shools or more in the colleges. I think it shoud be a requirement for anyone graduating college to be able to run 7 balls on a table. lol
No seriously, it could help promote the game if they offered it as an elective at college, or a part of their gym credit like archery or tennis or soccer. Maybe the Billiards Digets needs to start giving away more copies of their monthly issues to docters offices etc..., to get exposure. Man i have a hard time getting mine thru the mail as a subscriber, and i dont ever see any copies of it at the local PH anymore. Even if it was at a discount price for local businesses to buy. Jeanette Lee is from my area and she has really been good advertisement for the game, but there again she does some of it for a charity, maybe thats the ticket. We need to get her and other beautties in our sport to get into the public eye more. Get on Opara or Montel or something and promote the game thru the media. Its a shame we cant get it into the olypics, that stinks.

04-05-2002, 02:21 AM
Maybe we need to get behind people like Alan Hopins who has the experience to start an expo like the one he has, in every capital city across the U.S., sounds like alot but you have to start somewhere. Also if we could all pool our money for local stations to cover local tournaments final matches. Ok everyone send me $100 and i will try to get the local TV station to cover the finals of our tournament. LOL Maybe we need to have more pool schools, now that is something i have thought about before that would create more players, which would build the sport.

04-05-2002, 06:11 AM
Good morning:

The league lasted 11 years.

Dr. D.

04-05-2002, 10:55 PM
Ya gotta love D, she's always right there with the 4 1 1 LOL

#### leonard
04-06-2002, 12:45 AM
Arnie there is one thing your forgeting or maybe you you never knew but from 1910 to 1930 pool was the biggest individual sport in the United States. There was over 20,000,000 players out of a population that number near 100,000,000 people. Poolrooms in large cities were known to have between 50 and 140 tables. THere was no golf tour,no nfl,Mosconi outdrew the Chicago Bears in a Sunday exhibition. ####

04-06-2002, 10:54 AM
And, at one time there were over 500 pool rooms inside the Chicago loop.. 1920s
Tickets for matches ranged from $5 to $20 in 1920s and it was a "black tie" event.. at fancy hotel ball rooms..
Front page coverage for all the matches, in all the local newspapers.

04-14-2002, 05:43 PM
Good evening:

With-out a predictable television schedule, one that adheres to the dates and times published, we will NEVER gain an expanded audience. I have spoken with so many people who have NEVER seen Professional Billiards on ESPN because they never know it has been scheduled for broadcast, the broadcast schedule has been changed or the broadcasts are at some rediculous hour in the AM.

Professional Billiards deserves better!!!

Dr. D.

05-14-2002, 04:00 PM
Attracting Fans

Baseball Cards really helped to bring the game into the homes of the US.
It should not be different for Billiard Players. I am not suggesting we jump up and have Billiard Cards made right away (that will be later on /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif All players should have a brief history, game photo and stats readily available to the public. This would allow people to "get to know the players" and be able to pick favorites then become interested in following particular players games and stats. If each player is presented in a professional and dignified manner this would go a long way toward cleaning up the rowdy/ rough and tumble image of pool players. Local newspapers should be running an editorial of the event as it approaches, begins, and plays out; complete with player info and stats described above. This sport needs spectators and public support in order to grow. Get the news involved. If my grandma can have her party mix recipe printed in her local newspaper, there is no reason why all local billiard events should not be publicized. Once we get the local news involved and participating then we are in a better position to tackle the big guys!

One problem that has been touched upon here is the seating and viewing limitations of events. Every table in an event should have an approved viewing arena that allows spectators to see the play with out disturbing the players. I know that in most halls this is impossible. It needs to BECOME possible if we are to generate live spectators for events. If we get the public interested in the players, when they show up for an event they are going to want to be able to SEE their favorites in action. Therefore, each event location needs to be assessed before game day to determine where players will be, where spectators are allowed, how to keep traffic at a smooth non-disruptive flow; then create a detailed map of the Event Floor plan.

Time limits. Each event needs to have a rigorously maintained time schedule. Spectators should know before the tournament starts what the initial line up is, whos playing who, on what table, and the start time for each match. Each match should have a set time limit.

For example (Using very unrealistic numbers):
All round 1 (starting) matches 15 minutes. All round 2 matches 20 minutes.

This keeps players sharp and focused on their game as well as avoiding delays for round 3 matches.

Every match should have a prescheduled start time. For spectator sports this very important.

1:00pm Player A -vs- Player B on Table 1; I, the fan, should be able to look at my EVENT GUIDE and see that Table 1 match will be done at 1:15pm AND where the winner of Table 1 match will playing next and at what time. So if at 1:15pm Player A wins, I know that he/she will be appearing next on Table 5 at 1:30pm.

While not an easy thing to arrange, it is possible and necessary to generate a strong spectator base with growth potential at events. The time schedule needs to be run with an iron fist in order to keep from loosing the interest of the PAYING spectators, as well as adding to the stress level of the players. Too often players have NO IDEA when they are to play their next match. The players get out of stroke, fatigued, bored, or just irritated at the delay. Whereas if they KNOW that their next match is going to be a 45 minute wait in advance they are able to go to a practice table and keep up their stroke and playing attitude.

A practice arena is also a draw for fans, we all know that while we play in a tournament we are hoepfully, totaly focused on the table, yet while we practice during events we are able to cut loose a bit. People like to see PROFESSIONALS practice. Go to a golf tournament and take a look at the practice greens and driving ranges, they have bleachers for the spectators to watch their favorite players.

Also have a Play the Pro event. Spectators are interested in the game, they are itching to grab a cue and show their stuff, Charge $5 per 3 ball game or something like that.

Sorry for the long ramble here just got a wee bit carried away.

Where do I sign up???