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landshark1002000
12-05-2002, 01:50 AM
Hi. I'm Ted from Phoenix.
You're a knowledgable group. Up for a challenge?
This is a race to 5.The subject is 8 ball.First to answer each question correctly wins.(There are no trick questions.)
#1--After the break shot in an amateur game (4's or 5's), what's the AVERAGE number of rack balls that stop on the break half of the table?
#2--There are 6 pockets on the pool table. Which TWO pockets consistantly get the most rack balls?
#3--Even after your opponent turns the table over to you his ball group is still playing defense. Name or describe this static defense.
#4--In amateur games between 4's and 5's how often does a run out from the break happen? (Out of 100 games)
#5--Describe one offensive advantage (for both players) whenever you play 8 ball on a table LARGER than a bar box.
First player to answer all 5 correctly wins. Good luck.
--Ted from Phoenix

smfsrca
12-05-2002, 03:02 AM
1. 10
2. Foot rail corners.
2. Pocket blocking
4. 1 in 100 on a 9x4.5 with tight pockets
5. Greater separation between balls.

Wally_in_Cincy
12-05-2002, 12:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote landshark1002000:</font><hr> Hi. I'm Ted from Phoenix.
You're a knowledgable group. Up for a challenge?
This is a race to 5.The subject is 8 ball.First to answer each question correctly wins.(There are no trick questions.)
#1--After the break shot in an amateur game (4's or 5's), what's the AVERAGE number of rack balls that stop on the break half of the table?

<font color="blue"> seven </font color>

#2--There are 6 pockets on the pool table. Which TWO pockets consistantly get the most rack balls?

<font color="blue"> upper left and upper right corners </font color>

#3--Even after your opponent turns the table over to you his ball group is still playing defense. Name or describe this static defense.

<font color="blue"> surviving soldiers </font color>

#4--In amateur games between 4's and 5's how often does a run out from the break happen? (Out of 100 games)

<font color="blue"> twelve </font color>

#5--Describe one offensive advantage (for both players) whenever you play 8 ball on a table LARGER than a bar box.

<font color="blue"> balls are more open due to larger playing area </font color>

First player to answer all 5 correctly wins.

<font color="red"> what's the prize? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif </font color>

Good luck.
--Ted from Phoenix

<font color="red"> thanx. Wally from da natty </font color>

<hr /></blockquote>

12-05-2002, 12:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote landshark1002000:</font><hr> Hi. I'm Ted from Phoenix.
You're a knowledgable group. Up for a challenge?
This is a race to 5.The subject is 8 ball.First to answer each question correctly wins.(There are no trick questions.)
#1--After the break shot in an amateur game (4's or 5's), what's the AVERAGE number of rack balls that stop on the break half of the table?
#2--There are 6 pockets on the pool table. Which TWO pockets consistantly get the most rack balls?
#3--Even after your opponent turns the table over to you his ball group is still playing defense. Name or describe this static defense.
#4--In amateur games between 4's and 5's how often does a run out from the break happen? (Out of 100 games)
#5--Describe one offensive advantage (for both players) whenever you play 8 ball on a table LARGER than a bar box.
First player to answer all 5 correctly wins. Good luck.
--Ted from Phoenix <hr /></blockquote>

according to who? have you done some kind of statistical analysis or are you looking at someone's book or what??

it almost sounds like one of those "i'm thinking of a number. can you tell me what it is??""

dan...no, that wasn't it.

Fred Agnir
12-05-2002, 01:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote landshark1002000:</font><hr> Hi. I'm Ted from Phoenix.
You're a knowledgable group. Up for a challenge?
This is a race to 5.The subject is 8 ball.First to answer each question correctly wins.(There are no trick questions.)
#1--After the break shot in an amateur game (4's or 5's), what's the AVERAGE number of rack balls that stop on the break half of the table?
#2--There are 6 pockets on the pool table. Which TWO pockets consistantly get the most rack balls?
#3--Even after your opponent turns the table over to you his ball group is still playing defense. Name or describe this static defense.
#4--In amateur games between 4's and 5's how often does a run out from the break happen? (Out of 100 games)
#5--Describe one offensive advantage (for both players) whenever you play 8 ball on a table LARGER than a bar box.
First player to answer all 5 correctly wins. Good luck.
--Ted from Phoenix <hr /></blockquote>
This seems silly, but silly is what I'm all about.

1. 4.38

2. I don't understand the question. Both foot corners?

3. This static defense has a name? Who named it? Why didn't they tell me? His balls are still providing means of obstructions to cueball and object ball paths.

4. 4.38

5. Now I know this is silly. You are making way too many assumptions, the least of which are that all bar tables are created equal. That being said, there's more space to spread your wings. Is that an offensive advantage? I say, "yes."

Fred &lt;~~~ absolutely hates these kind of questions

Eric.
12-05-2002, 02:40 PM
"dan...no, that wasn't it. "

Hahaha! Reminds me of one scene from "Vegas Vacation" Clark Griswald is trying to win his money back and goes to an "easy game" casino. One of the table games is "Guess the number the Dealer is thinking of"!

Eric &gt; 5?

landshark1002000
12-05-2002, 02:49 PM
Hi Dan. Thanks for your post.
I wrote the questions.
Yes, there's statistics.
Yes, there's a book.
Now let me ask you a question. Can you recommend a good publisher? Because I've been working on this eight ball book for eight years now.I've carefully watched hundreds of 8 ball games. And my curious fascination hasn't faded or changed. I've talked with pros, authors, agents, pool hall operators, hustlers, marks, marketers and association heads. But there's still so much more to learn; so much more to discover.
So it may be slow going(after eight years of travelling)--but I like the road. And it may be that much of what I'm trying to discover will pass me by. But I'll be happy just to plow snow. And maybe the road will be open for the next traveller passing this way.
Thanks for your post. It's nice to meet you. --Ted fron Phoenix

SPetty
12-05-2002, 05:34 PM
Um, Ted, thanks for passing through again, but you forgot to drop off the answers while you were here...

jjinfla
12-05-2002, 05:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote smfsrca:</font><hr>

1. 10
2. Foot rail corners.
2. Pocket blocking
4. 1 in 100 on a 9x4.5 with tight pockets
5. Greater separation between balls.
<hr /></blockquote>

I was thinking the same way with maybe 2 in 100 for #4. jake

Scott Lee
12-05-2002, 07:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote houstondan:</font><hr> according to who? have you done some kind of statistical analysis or are you looking at someone's book or what??

it almost sounds like one of those "i'm thinking of a number. can you tell me what it is??""

dan...no, that wasn't it. <hr /></blockquote>

dan...LOLOL I was thinking exactly the same thing. Not to take anything away from landshark, but "I've watched 100's of 8-ball games"? LOL You would need to watch 1000's to have any REAL statistical analysis, imo. I thought there were MANY subjective answers to ALL of the questions, and for some of them, there is NO real definitive answer! However, that is what makes teaching and learning fun...
there are many ways to do the same thing!

Scott

landshark1002000
12-05-2002, 08:13 PM
This quiz has been posted for less than a day so far. Should we give any other folks a chance to respond?
--Ted from Phoenix

landshark1002000
12-05-2002, 11:33 PM
Thanks for passing thru yourself.
Here's some hints.
#1--Watch 20 breaks and average the results. You'll get the same answer.
#3--Phil Capelle gave this answer a name.(Play Your Best Pool)But his example is only one ball.It's also true for the opponent's whole ball group.
#4--Any 8 ball league that scores balls left on the table has this statistical data.
#5--Good answers here too. The #5 advantage comes at the expense of the static defense in #3.
Did you want to take a shot at it for fun? --As you're passing through, I mean.

stickman
12-05-2002, 11:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote landshark1002000:</font><hr> Hi. I'm Ted from Phoenix.
You're a knowledgable group. Up for a challenge?
This is a race to 5.The subject is 8 ball.First to answer each question correctly wins.(There are no trick questions.)
#1--After the break shot in an amateur game (4's or 5's), what's the AVERAGE number of rack balls that stop on the break half of the table?
#2--There are 6 pockets on the pool table. Which TWO pockets consistantly get the most rack balls?
#3--Even after your opponent turns the table over to you his ball group is still playing defense. Name or describe this static defense.
#4--In amateur games between 4's and 5's how often does a run out from the break happen? (Out of 100 games)
#5--Describe one offensive advantage (for both players) whenever you play 8 ball on a table LARGER than a bar box.
First player to answer all 5 correctly wins. Good luck.
--Ted from Phoenix <hr /></blockquote>

#1 Thirteen.

#2 The two corner pockets at the foot end.

#3 The opponents balls are blocking the favored pockets.

#4 Ten.

#5 The balls are less condensed. There is more open area.

??? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif ???

landshark1002000
12-06-2002, 01:21 AM
Stickman's got GREAT GRAPHICS. And he's close to three right answers.
Here are some hints:
All answers to #1 so far, are too high.
RE: #1-- It's the # of balls left on the lower half of the table; where the "kitchen" is.
RE: #3--Capelle describes this static defense. But it's more than just a pocket blockade. What else does the opponent's whole ball group do that limits your offensive game? Fred's right. He's got #3 described. Any guess on the name Capelle uses?
You folks have nailed #2 and #5.
jjinfla got #4. And it's true on a bar table too.
There's only #1 left to answer. Who's gonna get it?
The quiz shows why break and run is rare; why straight offense is bad strategy; and hints at how you can use the table against a stronger player.
Interested? --First to 5 starts the discussion on 8 ball strategy. --Ted from Phoenix

silverbullet
12-06-2002, 02:40 AM
thanks for the funny, but this is the serious forum &lt;G&gt; you might consider posting things of this ire on the npr in the futute /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Laura

Perk
12-06-2002, 06:48 AM
Straight offense? Bad strategy? Ok, first, assuming the stats are correct...1 of 100 runouts. How many are runouts after a scratch on break? Also, your point was amatuers 4 and 5 rating/levels. What do the good players, top players, and pros runout as?

I believe that amatuers that are at the 4/5 level, ought to be learning how to pot balls and begin learing consistent position play. I think that if they begin playing too defensivly too early, that they will limit there potention as a shot maker. Just my early morning thoughts..my mind is scrambled at work this early, but hey its Friday..and a long weekend of pool shall follow.. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

rackmup
12-06-2002, 06:55 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Subject: Re: 8 ball quiz <hr /></blockquote>

I think this is a POOL RELATED post.

Regards,

Ken (thinks Laura's illness is impairing her vision)

Fred Agnir
12-06-2002, 08:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote landshark1002000:</font><hr> All answers to #1 so far, are too high.
RE: #1-- It's the # of balls left on the lower half of the table; where the "kitchen" is. <hr /></blockquote>
Wait a second. The break half, you said. I answered 4.38. That's too high?

Fred &lt;~~~ wonders if miscues on the break should be counted

Perk
12-06-2002, 08:57 AM
If its the break HALF, I would think it would be higher...Even my side breaks end up with 7 or so at the break end. When I break from the front, I end up with about half at each side. So I would gets 7 to be the number. Guess I better break out the video camera and let my step son break...(2 usually on break half), my girlfriend (3 usually on break half), and then me (7 usually on break half). Might lower the overall average to 5/6.....But I guess what is the definition of amatuer 4/5...i know that my stepson/gf wouldnt be a 4 or a 5....

TomBrooklyn
12-06-2002, 09:03 AM
1. 6; 2. The corners at the foot; 3. Blocking the pockets; 4. Twice; 5. Balls are more spread out so they don't block the pockets as much.

silverbullet
12-06-2002, 09:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rackmup:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Subject: Re: 8 ball quiz <hr /></blockquote>

I think this is a POOL RELATED post.

Regards,

Ken (thinks Laura's illness is impairing her vision) <hr /></blockquote>

well they did have me on morphine for a couple of days /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
as long as nobody cares about the pr stuff, okay here. just love reading ccb.

Laura

Sid_Vicious
12-06-2002, 09:42 AM
They'll run me off in time I guess, but I look at this board(this exact one here)like my PH, and if I have a joke, a question about plumbing or a help question about pool...I'm going to post it. Hell, that's exactly why I liked the CCB all along, it was a loose and fluid place to pitch fun back and forth....sid~~~always the rebellious one

Btw, I didn't even read the preceeding posts in this thread, just the last two, so please don't take this personally. sv

dave
12-06-2002, 09:45 AM
"Rack balls"? "Break half of the table"? "Static defense"? Good luck with your book!

stickman
12-06-2002, 09:55 AM
#1 Second guess: 9

Wally_in_Cincy
12-06-2002, 09:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dave:</font><hr> "Rack balls"? "Break half of the table"? "Static defense"? Good luck with your book! <hr /></blockquote>

Yes the clarity is amazing isn't it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Editing services available for a nominal service charge,

landshark1002000
12-06-2002, 01:29 PM
Thanks for the reality check.
rack balls = all the balls still on the table except the cue ball.
break half = the foot half. the half where the "kitchen" is located.
static defense = the balls play a defense that "moves" with the cue ball. But the balls don't move. Capelle describes the idea in Play Your Best Pool. His term is ...the answer to #3.
--Ted from Phoenix

smfsrca
12-06-2002, 01:57 PM
[ QUOTE ]
break half = the foot half. the half where the "kitchen" is located.

<hr /></blockquote>
The kitchen is not at the foot end.
The kitchen is the area between the head string and the head rail.
[ QUOTE ]
static defense = the balls play a defense that "moves" with the cue ball. But the balls don't move. Capelle describes the idea in Play Your Best Pool <hr /></blockquote>
Cappelle was apparently trying to fill pages. As unclear and useless as this is I doubt it will become common language. These balls are normally thought of as interference, congestion, etc.,ie. the more balls your opponeant makes the less interference you will have when its your turn.

landshark1002000
12-06-2002, 02:43 PM
--Lots of good points here.
Unfortunately, as far as I can tell, only the stats for AMATEUR eight ball games are being kept today. I'd love to find ANY 8 ball statistics for the good players, top players, or the pros. But league data is all I've found so far.
Accustats says they used to record detailed game data from pro events. (little of which is Eight Ball, anyway.)But they found it unprofitable to continue paying folks to painstakingly score all the shots in all these games. Accustats decided to record all these pro contests on video as a cost cutting measure. But when customers heard about the videos a market was born. Gathering statistics and trying to measure player skills didn't make money. So today, Accustats shoots video. And their "stats" are history.-- Ted from Phoenix

Wally_in_Cincy
12-06-2002, 02:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote landshark1002000:</font><hr>
And their "stats" are history.-- Ted from Phoenix <hr /></blockquote>

They still keep stats and the kitchen is at the head of the table. I'm beginning to question your credibility.

Wally +~~has no credibility to lose /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif.

smfsrca
12-06-2002, 03:17 PM
What is a 4 or 5?
Is this a league rating?
If so, what league?

rackmup
12-06-2002, 07:27 PM
Sid,

I agree. I do not hate the 'other' posting forum but also consider it silly.

It was created for those who whined about 'non'pool-related' posts.

And, if you (not you, Sid) were one of the whiners, I apologize if I offended you. Feel free to whine about me whining about you being a whiner.

Sid...will we see you tomorrow at Skillman?

Regards,

Ken (the pro-active whiner)

Harold Acosta
12-06-2002, 09:59 PM
Answer to #1 on the quiz is 3 at the most. Average should be about 2-3 (in between).

The other questions you said have been answered.

[b]<font color="blue">Billiard is a passionate sport for the mind and soul!</font color>
http://www.thebilliardstour.com/images/starscrash.gif

landshark1002000
12-07-2002, 12:44 AM
Thanks Wally. When you're right you're right. I glanced at a copy of Jeanette Lee's, Guide to Killer Pool (Diagram 1- the basic table- on page 39)for my incorrect description. Please accept my apology.
Today I looked at a table digram by Robert Byrne. It clearly shows the relationship of the rack, head and foot.
Lee's diagram on page 39 did not show the rack. So I went forward in her book (page 93) and it showed the rack in the upper part of the diagram. I assumed she wouldn't have rotated her diagrams and went by diagram #1.
But you're right Wally; Lee's diagram and my description are wrong. The kitchen is at the head of the table. Thanks for pointing this out.
When I called Accustats earlier this year, they told me the company started out watching professional matches and recording the results of each individual shot during the contest. This statistical analysis was their own idea. They wanted a statistical model so they could rate players.
They wanted to sell statistical data but had few customers. They continued to compile data but as a cost saving measure they soon decided to video the matches and then tabulate later. By only sending one person they saved on labor and transportation costs. More customers were interested in the videos so they began to sell copies. Eventually they stopped compiling shot data altogether.Their original business idea was transformed into a better and better video operation. And that's where they are today.
According to my notes, I called twice. Early January and early August of this year. The owner, Pat Fleming was not available either time. Both times I asked specifically if they ever recorded any 8 ball matches. And the answer was no, never.
But if you say you can get those complex, shot by shot, 8 ball stats from them,please let me know how it turns out. I'll be very grateful for that data. You will share it,if you get it right? We'd all like to know how players of various skill levels compare.

Scott Lee
12-07-2002, 02:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote landshark1002000:</font><hr>
According to my notes, I called twice. Early January and early August of this year. The owner, Pat Fleming was not available either time. Both times I asked specifically if they ever recorded any 8 ball matches. And the answer was no, never. <hr /></blockquote>

landshark...Next time, insist on speaking to Pat, because whoever you talked to didn't know what the heck they were talking about. There are SEVERAL 8-ball tournament matches listed in the AccuStats catalog. Most recently, Pat &amp; crew were in Los Angeles one year ago, taping, editing, and selling on-the-spot, matches from the 8-ball round robin tournament that THEY sponsored, with Roger Griffis, Efren Reyes, Johnny Archer, Francisco Bustamante, Troy Frank, and Mika Immomen! This tournament ran during the Los Angeles Billiard Expo, in Oct. 2001.

Scott Lee

Wally_in_Cincy
12-07-2002, 11:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote landshark1002000:</font><hr> Thanks Wally. When you're right you're right. I glanced at a copy of Jeanette Lee's, Guide to Killer Pool (Diagram 1- the basic table- on page 39)for my incorrect description. Please accept my apology.
Today I looked at a table digram by Robert Byrne. It clearly shows the relationship of the rack, head and foot.
Lee's diagram on page 39 did not show the rack. So I went forward in her book (page 93) and it showed the rack in the upper part of the diagram. I assumed she wouldn't have rotated her diagrams and went by diagram #1.
But you're right Wally; Lee's diagram and my description are wrong. The kitchen is at the head of the table. Thanks for pointing this out.

<font color="red"> No apology required except for my time and brainpower wasted trying to figure out your desription of the table. j/k /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

So it's cleared up now </font color>
When I called Accustats earlier this year, they told me the company started out watching professional matches and recording the results of each individual shot during the contest. This statistical analysis was their own idea. They wanted a statistical model so they could rate players.
They wanted to sell statistical data but had few customers. They continued to compile data but as a cost saving measure they soon decided to video the matches and then tabulate later. By only sending one person they saved on labor and transportation costs. More customers were interested in the videos so they began to sell copies.

<font color="red"> There was an article in one of the pool mags about a year ago describing the evolution of accu-stats and your above statement is correct. They claim to have sold 300,000 tapes in total. </font color>

Eventually they stopped compiling shot data altogether.Their original business idea was transformed into a better and better video operation. And that's where they are today.

<font color="red"> I'm pretty sure they still keep stats. To what degree I'm not sure. Maybe just on the matches they tape. </font color>
According to my notes, I called twice. Early January and early August of this year. The owner, Pat Fleming was not available either time. Both times I asked specifically if they ever recorded any 8 ball matches. And the answer was no, never.
But if you say you can get those complex, shot by shot, 8 ball stats from them,please let me know how it turns out.

<font color="red"> I don't recall saying that </font color>

I'll be very grateful for that data. You will share it,if you get it right? We'd all like to know how players of various skill levels compare.

<font color="red"> Before the Accu-stats 8-ball Invitational which Scott Lee mentioned they only had one 8-ball match in their catalog. Efren Reyes vs. Jimmy Wetch. A final match from 1995 from Las Vegas. It was part of the Camel tour IIRC.

Accu-stats staged the 2001 tournament expressly for the purpose of increasing the number of 8-ball matches in their catalog due to customer requests. I have 7 of the tapes so far. The stats on these matches would be nothing like your quiz. The runout percentage is at least 70%. You miss or come up dry on the break-you lose.
</font color>

<hr /></blockquote>

landshark1002000
12-07-2002, 05:52 PM
Yes! #1 is three balls. --Great job.
The rest of the quiz...
#2--The two foot corner pockets
#3--Every ball in the opponent's ball group is playing defense. They block access to pockets, block shot lanes and block the path of the cue ball. Capelle describes this as an eclipse in Play Your Best Pool.
#4--Only one out of one hundred games are won this way. Raw data is available from any 8 ball league that scores remaining balls.
#5--More tablespace is an offensive advantage. The cue ball has more freedom of movement.
--Thanks to everyone who participated. --Ted from Phoenix