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silverbullet
12-09-2002, 06:15 PM
Everybody's heard the same stuff: you can't do anything til you have a good stroke,if you have a stroke you can shoot with anything etc.

From the time I took my first lesson with scott lee on the stroke through pool school with randy g, i have worked on my stroke almost everyday. aside from good instruction, kinks came up i had to work out. my hand shook, my stroke arm went inwards on the backswing,my bridge hand was unsteady, tg not all at the same time. but still, i have had to work on one thing after another to get a decent stroke. maybe this is easy for some people,but for me, it is and has been hard work.

and yes my pool shooting has gotten better as my stroke improves, but it sure is hard work. this makes just about 4 months or so i have worked on my stroke nearly daily.
i am also a perfectionist so have tried to get as perfect a stroke as I can and i use randys set,pause,finish, freeze (along with the vast amt of knowlege about the stroke i got from scott) and if i did not do a 'perfect'follow,even if i made the shot, it comes out of the pocket and back on the table (in practice)

i am wondering if others have found this much easier or if some people just have to work harder and others have more talent.or others have physical limitations to work through to achieve a decent to good stroke.

blu

Tom_In_Cincy
12-09-2002, 06:49 PM
SilverBullet

I've been playing pool (on and off) for 37 years. Seriously for the last 20.

I am still trying to develope my stroke. It takes practice to keep my stroke at its currentl level. If I don't practice, my stroke skills will digress. If I practive more.. my stroke skills will be more consistant. These are the observations I have made about my challenges with my stroke.

And, there is nothing like competition to see how well your stroke has developed.

phil in sofla
12-09-2002, 07:20 PM
My impression is that most people, once they've gone to intermediate stage or sooner, don't consider looking at their fundamentals anymore, meaning stance, bridge, grip, and stroke.

Not that they have a good stroke, but they have SOME kind of stroke, and work around whatever problems they have in their fundamentals, not realizing something so basic could be the source of the inconsisencies and problems they are having. I think for most people, looking at fundamentals is maybe something they'll look to as a last resort, to fix a slump. Then, they very well may find that trying to do things more correctly feels odd, and until they gain more experience with it, find their game is down a little as they try to learn those adjustments.

Most of the knowledge of my stroke issues I've gotten from more experienced players pointing things out to me after playing them a little, even though, looking back with the benefit of hindsight, I could tell that what I was doing with my stroke was really the problem with my game.

Now that I'm more aware of things, I believe the stroke is always a work in progress, and requires frequent monitoring to assure you're still doing the things you know you should do. I'm still unable to always pause at the end of the final backswing, although I mainly do that, and it is much better for my game when I do. I'm still trying to decide whether to use an elbow drop routinely, or only in special situations. I find it helpful to use it when I'm stroking very softly, as it helps complete the stroke and give a good follow through even when I'm bunting the ball, rolling it very slow.

One thing that helps me is to watch some pros play on tape, or when I went to the senior tour event at Mizerak's. Watching people stroke correctly seems to seep into my brain, and it generally boosts my game and helps my stroke for a good period of time.

Rod
12-09-2002, 07:30 PM
Quote, and yes my pool shooting has gotten better as my stroke improves, but it sure is hard work. this makes just about 4 months or so i have worked on my stroke nearly daily."


It is hard work until you have a better understanding and it doesn't stop there. You deal with it all your life.
At 4 months you haven't even sctatched the surface.
Even the best players work on their stroke, thats to say warm up and get it smoothed out. After that it's always a matter if the stroke was executed as visualized for the shot.

Most likely your in a mechanical state. It can be done that way after a "lot" more play and be decent. The common version is to swing the cue after you get past the mechanical end.
Let me ask you this, if your throwing an underhand softball or similar do you want to have a set,pause,finish, and freeze? I don't know about the freeze but yes you do have all of that to a degree. Point is does a person really think about that during the throw? It's built in during practice and then it becomes natural. Some adapt slower and some much faster. There is no time limit here since it's individual. As far as your perfect follow thru, don't be so critical. You just need to learn how to swing "through", "not at" the c/b, and the follow thru will take care of it self.

This is in general, just pointing out even though both throws are considerably different.

JohnnyP
12-09-2002, 08:32 PM
Rod: I'm rated a B-. Last week they matched me up with an A9 (they gave me ten on the wire), and I was playing well. I was not nervous, and I was stroking well. He even told me I have a nice, straight stroke.

Saturday, they matched me up with a lady B player. They gave me one on the wire. I feel that I should have beat her pretty easy, but I just squeaked by.

My wrist and forearm had a funny, queasy feeling, like it was almost trembling. When that happens, my stroke gets wobbly, and I don't hit the ball with authority.

I don't know if it's a mental thing or not, but it's very frustrating.

I'm sitting here with one leg up on my desk, typing with one hand, and I have that same queasy feeling in it. Arg. Won't be shooting tonight.

bigbro6060
12-09-2002, 10:22 PM
I learnt my stroke from Snooker and i can tell you, for the time i have been playing , it is pretty damm good!
I also practice the stroke just about daily

Snooker fundamentals are so sound, i just think it's silly for any pool player not to explore this area just a bit

I know Americans have a problem with anything which isn't American but i can tell you it is your loss (this is said a bit tongue in cheek but i don't think it's an untrue statement to say that 'SOME' Americans think that everything about America is the best and no one else can possibly do anything better)

Because i'm in Australia, we have almost equal exposure to both british/european and American cultures so Pool and snooker are just about equally popular here. I get to see both sides . But you can't argue with the fact that Mark Williams, crappy break and all made it through the round robin stage of the World Pool champs (honestly, Mark would play hardly any 9Ball in a year). I doubt any Pool player (i'm talking about the ones who don't play snooker as well like Alex Pagulyan), could make any indent at all in the Embassy World Snooker champs.

That's my neutral observation and opinion /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Rod
12-09-2002, 11:14 PM
Hi Johnny,
Where does this handicap rating start and end? Is that a game for every step difference? Say a C being the lowest and A10 for a high.

Anyway your not the first and won't be the last to have strange feelings. It's most likely mental when that happens. There is something inside that makes you feel uneasy. Perhaps the thought of losing or whom your playing at the time. It may not be easy to conquer but I think your letting your thoughts drift into a state of being afraid to pull the trigger. It's a matter of concentration on the game/table and not letting other thoughts creep in. When I have an uneasy feeling I get agressive to a point. It's real important to be in complete agreement with yourself on how your playing each shot. If you decide to do something don't have any second thoughts. If you do, stand back up and make a decision your comfortable with. Remember to breathe. When this stuff happens it takes you out of your natural rythm.(This is what you need to regain control of) Thats when shots start becoming mechanical and we lose the natural feel for swinging the weight of the cue. If you do swing and feel the cue weight there won't be a wobble. Changing your grip pressure or to tight to begin with is usually in there to.
Jeez Johnny your falling apart, slap-slap, get a grip on things. LOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Just remember it's not life or death and the balls going to go somewhere. Sometimes we think ourselves into a hole.

phil in sofla
12-10-2002, 12:56 AM
Do you think playing snooker gives them a better stroke than a good pool player's? I'd think the strokes would be about the same, especially if the pool player put the pause at the end of the last back swing. And I think the fundamentals would be about the same as well, except maybe with that monster rake they use, LOL!

I'm thinking the advantage of playing that game is about accuracy and distance, getting that accurate for longer shots on average than in pool, really fine tuning precise aiming. About the only fundamental I think is different is the open bridging. Of course, you have me at a disadvantage. I played in Toronto once when I was 14, and I read a book called 'Teach Yourself Snooker,' and that's my whole exposure. So how do you see the fundamentals comparing?

Chris Cass
12-10-2002, 01:04 AM
Well Bro,

Quite a statment you made there. Well, here we have the first ammendment. Anyway, Ever here of Archie Bunker?

Some American pool players also say, those who say they're good are not and those who say nothing, are probably good. I don't believe a word of it.

Regards,

C.C.~~can't play a lick.

bigbro6060
12-10-2002, 01:16 AM
Sorry guys, i didn't mean to offend anyone, my post probably came out a bit wrong


I'm not starting a SNooker is better than Pool thing or anything like that

What i am trying to say is that all cue sports have something to offer and snooker definitely has something to offer the pool player, especially in the stroke area of things

Pool players have things which snooker players can learn from etc


It is not good to be closeminded to anything

Bruce Lee said "Absorb what is useful, reject what is useless"

He studied every martial art under the sun! He borrowed footwork from Fencing!

so that is what i am saying, look everywhere to see how you can improve /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Chris Cass
12-10-2002, 01:36 AM
I'm sorry Bro,

I did take a little offense. I don't know of anyone in my caliber or higher that wouldn't do anything under the sun to add another weapon to their arsenal. That's why I saw it as so obserd.(sp?)

I myself have played snooker and always believed a player is a player whether it would be a snooker player or a pool player. The stroke is the same no matter what. Regardless what the stance looks like. It's only the final stroke that counts.

Snooker players and pool players both go through the same mental torture, the same lessons and the same joy. We are all pool players no matter what the game. We're also all human no matter where your born.

I've always seen pool as something universally understood by all. I feel the same thing a snooker player would feel when victory is taken away from us.

Who's got it better? Not the Americans. We can't even get it off the ground. The trouble is our love for the sport won't let us give up. Kind of like obtaining a great stroke.

Best Regards,

C.C.~~my bad....

Brent
12-10-2002, 02:15 AM
Amen to that Chris. A bit offtopic but have u guys played Russian Pool ? The table is 12 foot and the balls are bigger than in pool but the pockets are like the same size as the ball /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Cues used are bigger and strokes made are a lot stronger. Anyway...if ur accurate in russian pool then american-pool is childs play (shooting in pockets I mean).

Regards

Brent from a country near Russia

silverbullet
12-10-2002, 04:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> SilverBullet

I've been playing pool (on and off) for 37 years. Seriously for the last 20.

I am still trying to develope my stroke. It takes practice to keep my stroke at its currentl level. If I don't practice, my stroke skills will digress. If I practive more.. my stroke skills will be more consistant. These are the observations I have made about my challenges with my stroke.

And, there is nothing like competition to see how well your stroke has developed. <hr /></blockquote>

compared to you, I have done nothing. before getting serious 4 months ago, i played, with a few months break about 2x/week at a ph that had 9 foots and charged 2.50 an hour for about 2 years. i had not had formal instruction yet and guess i was just hitting balls hoping more would go in the hole. my best shots were long shots. dont know why. i wasnt particularly worried, just playing because i liked it and was cheap. so i dont really count that time in my life, cuz i did not have a follow through and did not even know what stroke speed, cb control or any of that really were. all i had were these old one pocket players who came everyday and gave me an ocasionally tip but mostly just keep shooting.

i was figuring the stroke was going to be a life time thing. shucks. so i dont get to graduate /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

blu

randyg
12-10-2002, 07:52 AM
Hi Gang: This is a very interesting topic. I have read every one of your posts. Let's have some fun and continue this thread even further.


In your opinion:
What is a "good" stroke?
What are the two key elements of a "good" stroke?

This should be interesting for all of us. I will post in later, after a few opinions......Thank you, randyg (the stroke doctor)

MikeM
12-10-2002, 10:27 AM
If I may be so bold I will tell you one element that I think is crucial to a good stroke. A balanced stance. When I get up disgustedly from a poorly stroked shot I usually realize my balance was off before the stroke. I use a snooker stance and my instructor showed me how a proper stance should allow you to remove your arms from the table and leave you comfortably balanced. When I'm trying to regain my lost stroke I first concentrate on balance and pre-shot alignment.

MM

Wally_in_Cincy
12-10-2002, 10:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> Hi Gang: This is a very interesting topic. I have read every one of your posts. Let's have some fun and continue this thread even further.


In your opinion:
What is a "good" stroke?
<font color="blue">One which delivers repeatable precision </font color>
What are the two key elements of a "good" stroke?

<font color="blue"> Ah what the hell, I'll risk writing something stupid yet again.

1. straight (no wobble)
2. level</font color>

This should be interesting for all of us. I will post in later, after a few opinions......Thank you, randyg (the stroke doctor) <hr /></blockquote>

Looking forward to your post,

12-10-2002, 10:58 AM
I'll give it a shot

<font color="blue">What is a "good" stroke?</font color>
One that consistently puts the cueball where it needs to go.

<font color="blue">What are the two key elements of a "good" stroke?</font color>
Straight - fluid motion and good follow through.

cheesemouse
12-10-2002, 11:11 AM
Precision and excelleration... /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Rich R.
12-10-2002, 11:19 AM
Here is my 2 cents worth.

What is a good stroke?

1. Straight.
2. Smooth.

=k=
12-10-2002, 12:05 PM
1. thought out
2. confident
3. relaxed

silverbullet
12-10-2002, 12:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> Hi Gang: This is a very interesting topic. I have read every one of your posts. Let's have some fun and continue this thread even further.


In your opinion:
What is a "good" stroke?
What are the two key elements of a "good" stroke?

This should be interesting for all of us. I will post in later, after a few opinions......Thank you, randyg (the stroke doctor) <hr /></blockquote>

2 key elements!!!!! not sure i can reduce it to just two. so i eliminate grip,bridge, alignment etc.okay here goes

1. fluid pendulum swing with bicep constriction on the for stroke,tricep contrict on backswing with no elbow drop
2. finish(home) with no elbow drop and with tip pointed towards the cloth in the direction of the aim.

What is a good stroke? One that is smooth, fluid, straight, the cue does all of the work to the extent it is like throwing the cue, a complete finish,the cue hits the cb where you want it to and the cb hits the ob where you want it to with the stroke speed you want, resulting in pocketing the ball and obtaining the desired shape for the next hit.

blu

Fred Agnir
12-10-2002, 12:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> What is a "good" stroke? <hr /></blockquote>

Anything that doesn't look like Allen Hopkins' stroke.

[ QUOTE ]
What are the two key elements of a "good" stroke?<hr /></blockquote>
A pre-planned excuse, and lots of whining (word of the month).

Fred &lt;~~~ glad to help

Rod
12-10-2002, 01:00 PM
Hi randy,

Two key elements,
Return the cue thru the exact aim point on the c/b
Gradual progression of speed on the forward stroke

Of course there are other elements that effect both of these such as constant grip pressure, transition, arm, hand, body movements etc, but these are my two key elements on the surface.

Fred Agnir
12-10-2002, 01:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> In your opinion:
What is a "good" stroke?
What are the two key elements of a "good" stroke?
<hr /></blockquote>

One that repeatably delivers the cuetip with the desired speed to the desired location on the cueball.

Fred

silverbullet
12-10-2002, 02:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr>
It is hard work until you have a better understanding and it doesn't stop there. You deal with it all your life.
At 4 months you haven't even sctatched the surface.
Even the best players work on their stroke, thats to say warm up and get it smoothed out. After that it's always a matter if the stroke was executed as visualized for the shot.

Most likely your in a mechanical state. It can be done that way after a "lot" more play and be decent. The common version is to swing the cue after you get past the mechanical end.
Let me ask you this, if your throwing an underhand softball or similar do you want to have a set,pause,finish, and freeze? I don't know about the freeze but yes you do have all of that to a degree. Point is does a person really think about that during the throw? <hr /></blockquote>

I know this sounds mechanical and simplistic to you , an advanced player. Hopefully with using the correct fundamentals, when I get better, it will get more automatic.

At this juncture,I do not think during the stroke. I plan my shot while I am standing up. Then I get down, do my pep while doing practice strokes(is this the same thing as pre-shot routine?), lock on the ob,backswing and hit the cb. the follow freeze is until the ob goes into the pocket and if it didnt it is what randy called 'diagnostics' a chance to look at my tip and see if i aimed where i thought i did. if i did not, then i can figure out if i put unwanted eng, did not do my pep right, had a twich in my stroke etc. a slight freeze also helps me to keep my head down...
i dont know if i am missing what you are saying are not...this is easy for me to do when advanced players are trying to explain something to me.

I think there is more distance between an intermediate player and an advanced player than between a beginner and an intermediate (4-5)

blu

Hopster
12-10-2002, 03:28 PM
Is there a tape out there that just deals with the mechanics of the stroke ? Anyone know of any good ones ?
Also, does anyone know of any qualified BCA instructors in Vegas ?
Thanks for any replies.

Tom_In_Cincy
12-10-2002, 04:09 PM
What is a good stroke?

I heard this a long time ago.. and I beleive that it covers my thoughts...

"The stroke is the fine art of throwing the cue forward in a repeatable pattern to ensure consistant delivery"

12-10-2002, 04:21 PM
What is a good stroke...One that pockets the objet ball and gets desired shape on the next shot.

Two elements of a good stroke. proper alignement of cue for shot. and consistant delivery of cue for shot...

This won't be popular among stroke fanatics, but there is no such thing as "The perfect stroke" The are umteen million ways to stand, hold the cue align the cue etc.
As long as it is done the same way every time, and the ball is pocketed and you get shape on the next shot, you have the perfect stroke...

What I see happening...(myself included sometimes) is that we don't trust what we have and try and perfect something that can not be perfected..that distracts us from what it is we really need to do...pocket balls and get shape...

I will say that there is a "knowledge" that needs to be learned as to what "helps" create "your" perfect stroke...
but only "you" will know what that perfect stroke is.....

Go watch the movie Bagger Vance...and apply it to pool..."Go find your one true authentic stroke"

bigbro6060
12-10-2002, 05:26 PM
Ok here's something which has helped me heaps

every sunday or every second sunday i have a videotaping session. I tape my stroke from every conceivable angle, from the side, front, back, other side, angle etc Hitting all kinds of shots. I call out to the camera before i take a shot (because the camera is pointed at me , not necessarily all of the table). E.g. "long 3/4 ball shot with medium draw". I then usually make a remark if the shot is good or bad. I don't choose too challenging shots , just normal stuff.

I do videotape my break, any commenting on the hit on the headball and the number of balls pocketed

I've always been very good at video analyis. I learn a lot from watching the pros (i've done this not just with Pool but Tennis and TKD). It is amazing what little things you pick up when watching your stroke on video. i've picked up things about my bridge and grip which i have now changed. Also ensuring my lower arm is perpendicular at impact. It's also very cool to see the good things in your stroke and you that do somewhat resemble a pro player ! You also spot what shots make you uncomfortable. My shooting over balls stance and bridge is shocking, as is my playing a frozen whitey off the rail, that's 2 things i need to fix up

phil in sofla
12-10-2002, 05:54 PM
No elbow drop on the follow through has dissenters, who say, to the contrary, that any ideal stroke MUST include an elbow drop at the end to maintain a level cue throughout to the end.

While opinions may vary, in previous discussions here, almost any great name in pool has been said to use the elbow drop at the end of the stroke, at least to some degree, at least at some times.

If you find the no drop working for you, of course, you don't have to concern yourself with the concept.

silverbullet
12-10-2002, 06:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote phil in sofla:</font><hr> No elbow drop on the follow through has dissenters, who say, to the contrary, that any ideal stroke MUST include an elbow drop at the end to maintain a level cue throughout to the end.

While opinions may vary, in previous discussions here, almost any great name in pool has been said to use the elbow drop at the end of the stroke, at least to some degree, at least at some times.

If you find the no drop working for you, of course, you don't have to concern yourself with the concept. <hr /></blockquote>

ill leave that one to the masterbca instructors.

blu

Rod
12-10-2002, 10:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote silverbullet:</font><hr>

I know this sounds mechanical and simplistic to you , an advanced player. Hopefully with using the correct fundamentals, when I get better, it will get more automatic.

Your right, I to often forget that I must have struggled along the way, I really don't remember. I do remember I had fun all the way. Mechanical is probable but never so simple and it will become more automatic as you learn and practice.


At this juncture,I do not think during the stroke. I plan my shot while I am standing up. Then I get down, do my pep while doing practice strokes(is this the same thing as pre-shot routine?), lock on the ob,backswing and hit the cb. the follow freeze is until the ob goes into the pocket and if it didnt it is what randy called 'diagnostics' a chance to look at my tip and see if i aimed where i thought i did. if i did not, then i can figure out if i put unwanted eng, did not do my pep right, had a twich in my stroke etc. a slight freeze also helps me to keep my head down...
i dont know if i am missing what you are saying are not...this is easy for me to do when advanced players are trying to explain something to me.


By your explanation here you don't sound near as mechanical as I originally thought. Yes after your decision is made and you step towards the table, starts your pre-shot routine. I don't include the thinking process away from the table part of the pre-shot routine. Some may, but I consider it observation and evaluation.
I don't know what "pep" means, unless it's preparation. What your doing sounds good, it was just the way you worded your original post that made me visualize a mechanical arm, along with an overactive mind. Perhaps I read more into your post than was there.

I think there is more distance between an intermediate player and an advanced player than between a beginner and an intermediate (4-5)



blu <hr /></blockquote>

silverbullet
12-11-2002, 01:09 AM
Thanks Rod. Personally, i know i am no where near advanced but feel good about the progress i am making. I am not frustrated that I do not run racks (can do 4 balls on an open table if they are in easy position or 3 if shape is harder ) To be honest, I think I am a little afraid to run racks,even if I could. Like it would put me in with the big guys and take me out of the comfort zone of having a good time with 3-5.

I generally do have good focus down on the ball and where ww plays a little zippy with lots of english, i play methodical with minimal english. It is funny that our personalities are opposite to our pool styles, right now.

PEP- a randy g term from pool school for personal eye movement. Do you look at the cb or ob last and how do you move your eyes back and forth during preshot. I have been exposed to randy's and ww and know scott looks at the cb last. Not trying to start something up about that. Just what it is and I have been exposed to different ones.

Am not playing up to speed right now after being sick for three weeks. The last week while i was recuperating at home, could only get to the table for 30 min a day.League is tomorrow night and I have new equipment. I really think it is in the stroke and the mind, not the equip, but right now my stroke seems to me to be a little off. So today i am focussing on getting that stroke grooved and fluid. The heck with whether things go in. If the stroke and focus are good then balls go in.

It is funny how ww said I was playing great yesterday but i said i was playing lousy. My standards are very high even if it takes me the rest of my life to achieve them.

blu

Rod
12-11-2002, 02:16 AM
Quote blu, PEP- a randy g term from pool school for personal eye movement. Do you look at the cb or ob last and how do you move your eyes back and forth during preshot. I have been exposed to randy's and ww and know scott looks at the cb last. Not trying to start something up about that. Just what it is and I have been exposed to different ones."


Most shots goes like this, 4 to 5 strokes. The first two or three are setting up the general aim line and c/b contact. The third or 4th is slower with a pause at the c/b. During this pause my eyes move to the o/b. Last stroke is a slow back swing with a slight pause. When playing well there is never a sign of a rushed forward movement.
I play very upright, probably similar to Scott. Many times I use a slip stroke that is incorporated as well. Slip stroke is sliding the grip hand back on the cue during the pause at the c/b before the final stroke. My eyes move to the o/b at the same time as mentioned earlier. No one teaches this stroke that I'm aware of and I don't either.

silverbullet
12-11-2002, 06:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr>Most shots goes like this, 4 to 5 strokes. The first two or three are setting up the general aim line and c/b contact. The third or 4th is slower with a pause at the c/b. During this pause my eyes move to the o/b. Last stroke is a slow back swing with a slight pause. When playing well there is never a sign of a rushed forward movement.
_________________________
Blu:
Your general approach to the stroke and locking on the ob at the pause on the cb(scott causes it pause, randy calls set) is what randy teaches. the pause at the backswing randy teaches, scott does not.

I usually do not pause for very long at the backswing but do set. when i pause at the backswing, my hand was tremoring. i seem to have gotten past that(still tremor mildly but no biggie), so i will probably try to increase it again. it is a good way to keep from rushing the stroke. i see as a biggie of contention on what a person does with their eyes during the preshot routine. many use ww technique of looking back and forth while randy gs method is different. he looks at the ob (a good look and a good look at the cb)when first down on the shot, then focuses on the cb during the practice stroke. at the set, then he focuses on the ob. i hope i am not misquotting him but he said that if a person is looking back and forth at ob very quickly, then it does not allow the brain to form an adequate imprint of the ob in the mind. so, in his system, it is looking at the ob long enough to form this imprint that is key rather than how many times one looks at the ob. many of his students have benefitted from this method.

Personally, I have tried to transition from ww to randy g pep but have had some difficulty with this.I have done ww method for so long (3 years) that chAnge is slow.

I take usually 3 practice strokes but sometimes 4 on a tuffer shot.

-------------------------------------
Rod:
I play very upright, probably similar to Scott. Many times I use a slip stroke that is incorporated as well. Slip stroke is sliding the grip hand back on the cue during the pause at the c/b before the final stroke. My eyes move to the o/b at the same time as mentioned earlier. No one teaches this stroke that I'm aware of and I don't either.

Blu:
I have heard of this slip stroke. please wrive me pvt and give me details. since my stroke arm sometimes does weird stuff, i am aiming for the lighter grip possible so in essence i am throwing the cue.right now i rest (not grip) the cue on fingers middle and ring. the thumb and index form a loop without pressure. i have found so far that the further back my cue rests on back fingers, the less weird stuff.then i havent experienced with alignment yet so their maybe be some benefit from that


I know I have a lot to learn but also think I can be reasonably good with a good stroke, general position with stroke speed and use of rails with minimal enlish and planning. i am good on safety but am getting away from that because I was using it as a crutch. I guess, even though i have a lot to learn, i dont want it to be mistakes made due to a bad stroke, but due to inexperience.

i play very low on the ball almost as eye level except on some shots where I have to raise up a bit to give my stroke fluid movement.I think that higher up may give a more accurate pic of shot but i go lower: it helps with focus and especially keeping my head down and doing a correct follow through. I use about a 10 in bridge xcept short shots. I can shoot rightie or leftie but am better rightie.i only use leftie on short rail shots and easy cuts where fast ball speed control is not required and it is a pain to drag out that bridge. to tell you the truth, I am just learning to use the bridge. on the stroke, i have gone to a super light grip because that is the only way i can keep my stroke from doing weird stuff like going in toward my body. alignment helps a little too. so i am still working on the stroke and really look forward to my next lesson with scott and hopefull the next level pool school in the fall.

thanks again

blu

silverbullet
12-11-2002, 07:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> Hi Gang: This is a very interesting topic. I have read every one of your posts. Let's have some fun and continue this thread even further.


In your opinion:
What is a "good" stroke?
What are the two key elements of a "good" stroke?

This should be interesting for all of us. I will post in later, after a few opinions......Thank you, randyg (the stroke doctor) <hr /></blockquote>

where are you randy? we are waiting for the pool doc

blu

silverbullet
12-11-2002, 08:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote phil in sofla:</font><hr> No elbow drop on the follow through has dissenters, who say, to the contrary, that any ideal stroke MUST include an elbow drop at the end to maintain a level cue throughout to the end.

While opinions may vary, in previous discussions here, almost any great name in pool has been said to use the elbow drop at the end of the stroke, at least to some degree, at least at some times.

If you find the no drop working for you, of course, you don't have to concern yourself with the concept. <hr /></blockquote>

I kind of dodged this. I like what you write phil. I am no expert but have heard from some that an inch or so drop on the follow is okay. Personally, I dont see the point in it, unless the stroke speed is so fast, the person has trouble stopping, but cant see any benefit to it either, after all, the cb is long gone. That is why I said ask the experts.

blu

#### leonard
12-11-2002, 08:23 AM
Is Eddie Charlton still playing down under. I saw him play in the Worlds Tournament in NYC in the 60s along with Rex Williams of England. He should be closing in on his mid 70s.####

Rod
12-11-2002, 12:32 PM
blu, I don't teach a pause either. I just say finish your backstroke before you start forward. Using that phrase lets the person build in their own tempo during the transition. For some it will be a slight pause and others won't be quite as noticable.

Trust me, you don't want to get involved with a slip stroke. It changes the lower arm position from the std 90 degree to variables. It's just one more link for something to go wrong especially for anyone learning the basics. Do your self a favor and use what Scott and Randy have taught you. Good luck

HOWARD
12-11-2002, 02:03 PM
Australian Bro,

I use to play on a 6 x 12 snooker table with pool balls when I was trying to tighten up my long range shooting. Particularly straight in shots.

I believe three cushion billiards may give out the strongest
stroke, snooker the accurate stroke and pool is in between somewhere depending on the type of game being played, the table it is played on, the type of cloth on the table etc.

The stroke should be consistent. level, smooth and straight are the three adjectives that leap to mind for description.

Best Regards,

Howard

silverbullet
12-11-2002, 02:11 PM
Thanks Rod. I am not even sure I know what a slipstroke is and maybe I don't need to know that at this point. Since I am not advanced, maybe some of this stuff would confuse me. Maybe it is a case of 'curiosity killed the cat'

blu

JohnnyP
12-11-2002, 03:39 PM
Rod: I stumbled onto the slipstoke about thirty five years ago. I was in the navy, and I came back to the Y after playing on bar tables all night. I was really tired, but I was such a pool addict that when I saw the open 9 footer, I couldn't resist.

I don't know how it happened, but I started letting the cue slip forward on the power stroke. Maybe I was just too tired to hold onto it.

Long straight-ins were no problem, and when I drew the ball, it came straight back, instead of sliding off to the side.

Probably the best hour of pool I've ever had.