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9 Ball Girl
12-11-2002, 03:15 PM
Tuesday night 8 ball league. 9 footers (Thank God, as you all know, I can't stand barboxes!). One of my teammates needs 1 more win. She has this:

START(
%AO7O4%BM8P6%CK8O4%DM8N1%E\8H4%FL8P0%GL8N7%Ho0C0%I M7O3%JL8M5
%KK8P6%LK8N1%ML8Q2%NK8Q8%OK8M0%PV6J4%eB9a4
)END

She's an SL2 and so I get up to give her a coach. I tell her to shoot the 5 straight down pass the 8. She loves to draw the ball and I told her to try to hit this one a bit above center. Nice and smooth. You're not going to scratch, the cue ball is going to naturally go to the left and you should get easy on the 8 ball. Instead, she tells me that she won't take that shot because she doesn't like those shots. So she shoots the 5 in the side with draw as usual and she ends up like this:

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%AO7O4%BM8P6%CK8O4%DM8N1%EN7P0%FL8P0%GL8N7%Hn1C3%I M7O3%JL8M5
%KK8P6%LK8N1%ML8Q2%NK8Q8%OK8M0%Pm7\0%eB9a4
)END

Now she turns to me and asks me "what do I do now?" I walk over and I ask her, "what do you think?" She said "well I'm going to bank it." So I told her the best thing to do is to play safe. But she insisted on banking it (she's a bit of a hard head) so I reluctantly told her to put some left on the CB eventhough I know she can't make it (once a hardhead always a hardhead). She hits it on the center. We lost that one...

Another coach for another teammate. He's on the hill, and he's got ball in hand. He's like this:

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%Em7K7%GD4H7%Hu5F0%eB9a4

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I tell him to shoot the 7 first, come back for the 5, and then he'll be right there for the 8. He wouldn't take my specifics as he feels he knows what he's doing. Sigh. He tells me that he's going to shoot the 5 first. I said that's not a good idea since you want your last ball to be near the 8 and you want to have the CB land in the vicinity of the 8. The way he wants is going to have him going up and then down which doesn't have to be 'cause he's got BIH. He insists that his way will work. He shoots the 5 first and leaves himself this:

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%GD4H7%Hu5F0%Pl1M8%eB9a4

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He won't even look my way! He mucks up the shot and loses. (He actually won the set with the next match. Whew!)

Anway, that is the last time I give coaches if they're not going to be taken. In both instances, I asked them "well what do you think?" and then I'll give them my scenario. To the first one, I told her that she should practice the shots she's not comfortable with so that in a situation like this, she has to bear down and take it. And I told her that just because you can make a shot, doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do. Defensive play helps too (that was in reference to her first game). I felt like Stickman the other night. Very frustrating!

Wendy~~this Coach is retiring /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif except for Tom /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif and there's snow on the WEI table! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

12-11-2002, 04:56 PM
honestly, i think you're coming at this thing the wrong way. i'm almost always the one who gets asked to coach and i open it the same way you do, asking what they have in mind. i may just say go gettum or i may make some suggestions. either way, i feel like they are just asking for an opinion not making me the boss of their shot. sometimes, it's just like the catcher coming to the mound. giving 'em a chance to take a break and settle down some. either way, it's still their table and their shot and i don't get my ego bent if they choose to do something else. i also do not accept the blame if they take my advice and it blows-up on them.

just a suggestion, no way you have to accept it.

dan

nAz
12-11-2002, 05:06 PM
i Hate to coach but sometimes you can see a person is gonna scratch or just not get on the next shot. problem with coaching besides stuburn people (pride) is that sometimes you have a person that lacks the skills to execute a shot in a certain way, the shot may require a CB hit of 1 o'cloack but the person cant or does'nt feel comfortable shooting like that. so you have to let them shoot it and just make it and hopfully have atleast a long shot for the next ball.
you have to do the best you can with what you have to work with.

SpiderMan
12-11-2002, 05:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> Another coach for another teammate. He's on the hill, and he's got ball in hand. He's like this:

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%Em7K7%GD4H7%Hu5F0%eB9a4

)END

I tell him to shoot the 7 first, come back for the 5, and then he'll be right there for the 8. He wouldn't take my specifics as he feels he knows what he's doing. Sigh. He tells me that he's going to shoot the 5 first. I said that's not a good idea since you want your last ball to be near the 8 and you want to have the CB land in the vicinity of the 8. <hr /></blockquote>

Apparently he didn't execute very well, but if the diagram is accurate (8-ball partially blocks one pocket for the 5) I'd also choose the 5 first because it is the most difficult ball to get shape on. The 7 and 8 could be made from position zones half as large as the table.

I'd play the 5 in one of several pocket choices and roll 'most anywhere uptable for the 7. Then I'd roll back 'most anywhere downtable for the 8. Having to shape the 5 for just one specific corner pocket adds more risk than I would deem necessary; you can over-roll by 12 inches and if you're also close to the ball you have a low-percentage shot into the side and a scratch risk to boot.

Of course, everyone sees a different table, but that's probably how I would choose to play it.

SpiderMan

heater451
12-11-2002, 05:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote houstondan:</font><hr> . . .asking what they have in mind. i may just say go gettum or i may make some suggestions. <hr /></blockquote>I hate to coach, since most of the time I am only asked when it seems like there's no good way to go, offensive or defensive. However, I think it's important that you give them a chance to see why their idea might not be the best, as opposed to just telling them what to do--even if it's "obvious" to you. You can give them good advice all day, but they have to be ready to take it.

In the case with the guy having BIH (scenario #2), I don't see why he bothered to ask, but with the first teammate, I can't see why she'd go to the side, since it looks impossible(maybe, the diagram is off). However, assuming that the 5 was good for the side, she might have also been successful in positioning, if only she'd made sure to use enough 'steam' to get further back up table.

BTW, your second diagram appears with the ball inside the cushions:

START(%AO7O4%BM8P6%CK8O4%DM8N1%EN7P0%FL8P0%GL8N7%H n1C3%IM7O3%JL8M5
%KK8P6%LK8N1%ML8Q2%NK8Q8%OK8M0%Pm7\0%eB9a4)END

but, if you meant this:

START(%Hm9C9%Pm9Z8)END

then it would be nigh impossible to bank, with both balls frozen. However, if the cueball is far enough out (and both balls are in line with the diamonds) you can make it by shooting side-spin, towards the pocket, but aim to the inside as well, a hair off-center. It's something you have to practice a bit, to get the feel:

START(%Hm9C9%Pm9Y2%Un1E8%Vm9X1%Wr7Z2%Xn0C7%eC5a2)E ND

Alternatively, the 8 might make the corner, if you can get enough sidespin, and hit the rail first. If the cue ball is frozen, this would make it something of a masse, with the cue jacked-up:

START(%Hm9C9%Pm9Z8%Ul7D0%Vl1C5%Wr3D0%Xn0C9%eC7a8%_ l1E0%`k9N7%am5Y9)END

If there were a safe shot, I think that would be the better way to go (as you mentioned).



========================

Ralph S.
12-11-2002, 05:36 PM
I can relate to a certain degree. What usually happened with me is that the player feels that they dont need a coach because they know how to hold a cue the same as anyone else. Therefore they think that they dont need a coach and feel like advice from a more experienced player is just like putting them and their capabilities down. It is a very touchy thing. When they finally realize themselves that they are losing because of poor shot choices then they will start to be more receptive to advice. Until then ya just gotta deal with it unfortunately.
MastersMaster

SPetty
12-11-2002, 05:36 PM
To quote Chris Cass...

Tap, Tap, Tap.

Nice post.

9 Ball Girl
12-11-2002, 07:47 PM
Actually my diagrams are a little off. I did it while at work and the Boss was walking around. His shot was more like this:

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%AB6B2%BB3]4%CA8]7%DB9B1%En6J0%FA9]3%GB6B0%Hv1G3%IC9J2%JB2B2
%LB5B2%MB2]5%OB1]4%eB7a4
)END

9 Ball Girl
12-11-2002, 07:53 PM
Point taken, Dan. If anything, I was getting asked by the Captain of the other team who was sitting next to me why I wasn't stopping her with most of her shots and believe it or not, I told him that it's her table and I'll coach her when I think I'll see something better. And when that time came, I asked, I suggested and explained why, and she took her shot. No broken ego here. My ego flew out the window when I started playing pool. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

9 Ball Girl
12-11-2002, 07:57 PM
My diagram is off. (Trying to do it fast at work while the Boss was lurking). The 8 ball was probably 3/4 of an inch off the rail, the CB, however, was frozen to the rail.

12-11-2002, 11:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> Point taken, Dan. If anything, I was getting asked by the Captain of the other team who was sitting next to me why I wasn't stopping her with most of her shots and believe it or not, I told him that it's her table and I'll coach her when I think I'll see something better. And when that time came, I asked, I suggested and explained why, and she took her shot. No broken ego here. My ego flew out the window when I started playing pool. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>

you're right about it being hard to have an ego and shoot pool, both.

i'll also try to know what kind of shots; banks, long cuts, little caroms, whatever, are working for them that night and factor that in.

i didn't know there were leagues where someone could call time out besides the shooter. were i down on a shot and someone called timeout over my shoulder i'd probably accidentally hurt them and be all apologetic after but not so apologetic that they'd do it again.

dan

Chris Cass
12-12-2002, 04:25 AM
Hi Wendy,

Although, your advice I found to be good basic 8 ball strategy. First working their way down to the 8 ball, is solid advice. The lower skilled players will do what ever they feel comfortable with.

You asking what they think shows good coaching skills also. It tells you where their heads at and also gives them a chance to relax.

They're going to do what they want anyway, because of what they feel their capabilities are. Unless, they're totally drawing blanks? I think they just need time to think and shake the nervousness during the match. Kind of like going to the bathroom to regain their composure.

I always ask when coaching. What do you think you should do? After they tell me. I'll ask and where is the cb going to land for the next shot? I actually, want them to specifically show me on the table. I make them visualize the shot, totally. I explain what to do by telling them, this is just another alternative. I also tell them how I'd hit the cb. In the end I always say shoot what feels most comfortable to you.

One guy I had as a partner was so bad. No matter what you told him it would be just as bad. Now, everyone on the team didn't want to partner up with the guy. He couldn't do anything right and could get a bad hit with BIH.

They stuck me with him because I didn't much care what partner I had. My advice to him was relax, shoot what you want and don't bother asking me what I think because I don't care what you do. Harsh attitude but it worked. He shot better with me than anyone else. Too many coaches get frustrated and instead of giving advice they'll tell them what to do. I think the main thing about coaching is turning them loose to learn. The other is to relax.

I think you did and said the right things. Your a good coach.

Regards,

C.C.~~making them visualize is the best lesson to give..IMHO

Fred Agnir
12-12-2002, 08:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote heater451:</font><hr> BTW, your second diagram appears with the ball inside the cushions:
<hr /></blockquote>
I've e-mailed to Wei about this. On the Instroke Wei Table (the one I use), it looks inside the cushion. With the RSB Wei Table (with snow today), it's within the playing surface.

Fred

Fred Agnir
12-12-2002, 08:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> &lt;snip... coaching, but player takes a different shot, and mucks it all up&gt;<hr /></blockquote>
I'm no help, but this is why I don't like coaching. You gave the right advice on the first shot, and it's up to the player to do what they want. You can't shoot if for them.

My tidbit of advice to any coach is that asking a player who can't even execute a follow shot to bank with english is that it doesn't make much sense. Everytime a lower skill player asks me "what english," I tell them "center."

On the second scenario, since the 5-ball doesn't pass the 8-ball, it's not a bad choice to start with it in this case. However, given that he couldn't execute the 5-ball to the 7-ball pattern, I doubt he could have executed the 7-ball to 5-ball pattern. So, you're better off as the coach that he missed on his terms, and not your terms. He may listen to you next time. That's a win for you for the future.

Fred

silverbullet
12-12-2002, 09:40 AM
Good coaching is very hard. In the beginning, I just wanted to focus on centerball as a mediocre two. Now I knew enough to know that scratching was not good so usually tried to angle a straight shot into a slight cut so I wouldnt scratch. Then this coach comes up and tells me this complicated english or whatever shot "2 tips high left with medium speed". Give me a break.

I have seen twos vary from pool hall to pool hall but imo, and you can spank me if you want, but the two is not there to win games (although they will when they are getting ready to be a 3) but to learn how to hold a cue, do a basic stroke, bridge, hit balls and in essence learn rudimentary pool and to add just 2 points to the 23 or 25 so the 7's can play.

I am not going to say about what I would do as a coach. I think you had good ideas. I just dont think it is that important for a 2 to win unless they are getting ready to move up. I think that if the team is depending on the win of the 2, it is a pretty weak team. That is sortof what happened to our team, except that it was the three that won most often. cept for ww when he played.

blu