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View Full Version : Arrogance.. And the top pros..



Pogue
12-15-2002, 06:40 PM
Everyone, tell me what you think on this subject.. I personally think that pool is so much of a competitive endeavor that it almost takes a certain level of arrogance to make one a consistent winner, even if you do have the skills. At least this seems to be the case with most of the top American players I have met. Johnny Archer has it, but hides it better than most.. Buddy Hall has it. Earl Strickland has it, and it is his defining feature.

Efren doesn't SEEM to have it, but to beat all the other top players, you simply have to believe you are the favorite in every match up, regardless of how well the other is playing. It looks like arrogance to others, but IMHO, it is simply belief that you are supposed to win.

When I played in WA state, and made my big jump in skill level, I began to truly believe I was never supposed to let a player of a certain level beat me. And before I knew it, just that pure belief drove me to pull out some matches from the grave, with them being on the hill, and I needed 6 games, or something ridiculous like that..

To make a long opinion short.. I think arrogance is just supreme confidence (justified) in one's skills.. If you don't have it, you can't win...

Whatcha tink? Pogue

Ralph S.
12-15-2002, 06:52 PM
I think that there is a very fine line between arrogance and confidence. I also think its okay to kinda push that line a little. Not much but just a little because if you push it too much then one becomes down right cocky and when that happens I think that person is doing nothing more than making a jackass out of themselves. JMHO.
Ralph S.> believes this because he has made a jackass outta himself a time or two. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

TerryArdeno
12-15-2002, 11:42 PM
Of all the world class players I've met, by far the nicest & easiest ones to talk w/ were Earl Strickland, Jim Rempe, Danny DiLiberto, Johnny Archer, Ralf Souquet & Oliver Ortmann.
And BY FAR the worst, most arrogant personified was Charlie Williams. No other top pro can ever come close to how disdainful he treats the fans. Other "good guys w/ the fans" were Santos Sambajon, Allen Hopkins, Dallas West, Jimmy Fusco, Irving Crane, Frank McGown, Mika Immonen, Neils Feijen, Pat Fleming, Johnny Ervolino, Grady Mathews & Mika Immonen. Other than Charlie Williams, I didn't detect arrogance in these other players, just a certain confidence & presence. They all know they're very good at what they do.

smfsrca
12-16-2002, 02:02 AM
Arrogance is having disdain for your inferiors. I have yet to meet a pool player who doesn't believe their game can improve and who doesn't have some measure of respect for their opponents ability to beat them at any given time. These are not the signs of arrogance. On the other hand, I have met many pool players who whine, bitch, throw tantrums and in general strike out at someone or something. This is not a measure of arrogance, but a negative way of protecting themselves from their own fears.

Steve

dave
12-16-2002, 11:48 AM
Just for the heck of it, I looked up "arrogance". I agree with what you said in your post, but maybe arrogance isn't the right word:

arrogance

\Ar"ro*gance\, n. [F., fr. L. arrogantia, fr. arrogans. See Arrogant.] The act or habit of arrogating, or making
undue claims in an overbearing manner; that species of pride which consists in exorbitant claims of rank, dignity,
estimation, or power, or which exalts the worth or importance of the person to an undue degree; proud contempt
of others; lordliness; haughtiness; self-assumption; presumption.

The definition includes "undue claims", "exorbitant claims", "exhalts worth to an undue degree". These phrases suggest that the attitude is based on a false foundation and you're talking about something else. The characteristic of supreme confidence that you describe probably merits another word.Just wasting my time thinking about word usage and isn't really relevant to your post. Have a good one.

Fred Agnir
12-16-2002, 11:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dave:</font><hr> Just for the heck of it, I looked up "arrogance". I agree with what you said in your post, but maybe arrogance isn't the right word:<hr /></blockquote>
Confidence... or cockiness?

Fred

dave
12-16-2002, 12:09 PM
I like cockiness. The dictionary defined it as "offensive assertiveness". God! I need to get a life!

Rich R.
12-16-2002, 12:53 PM
When I looked up "Arrogance" in my dictionary, they had a picture of Charlie Williams. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Popcorn
12-16-2002, 02:00 PM
I think to be really competitive you have to have supreme confidence but not arrogance. It should be based in reality though. In other words, you know you would not gamble with a certain player even up, but you also know from experience they don't have to win in a tournament match. Tom Kennedy does not play like Johnny Archer and he knows it and so does Archer. In a 60 minute tournament match though, It may be a toss up who wins and they both know that also. Once this realization is learned you can compete with better players in tournaments not because of false confidence, but from a learned reality. That is why it is so important to compete. When you beat a Buddy Hall or Archer or even if you get to 9 in a race to 11 you learn they are not Gods. This is not to mean any disrespect to them, but they can be beat. When you take this back to your own pool room, the guys you usually play with all of a sudden don't seem like much, after you just went hill-hill with a top player. Psychologically it is the biggest thing that will improve your game, the knowledge that the other player can't deny you your own game. When you understand that a champion MUST play like a champion to beat you, he can't do it with his name only, you are becoming a player to be respected. I hope I have written this so it makes sense because it is really important. I often hear players say something like, "I would not play that guy no matter how much weight he gave me." Why?

socrates
12-16-2002, 02:25 PM
Great question.

What the mind can conceive the body will achieve.

Some people believe it when they see it while champions know if they believe it they will achieve it.

While my combat experince in pool is limited I do know that my best performances and wins in other competitive endeavors have all come when the mind was properly focused supported by vigorus and appropriate training leaving no doubt as to the outcome. - Confidence.

The true champion can bring that focus to bear in the competitive environment AND still interact with others outside of the arena and treat others as they would like to be treated.

Some brief thoughts.

Scott Lee
12-16-2002, 03:40 PM
I have to agree with Popcorn here. Supreme confidence is NOT the same as arrogance. All of the top players exude supreme confidence. Many of them live in a blind world of arrogance (i.e.: "I'm a world champion, and the world OWES me a living!"). For the ones who cannot claim a W.C., they still many times come off as very arrogant individuals. Efren Reyes, perhaps the most HUMBLE poolplayer on earth, has the knowledge and skills to beat anyone, and frequently beats EVERYONE!...regardless of whether it is gambling or tournament play. Although he has supreme confidence, he hides it behind an extraordinary composure! He NEVER appears arrogant, cocky, loud, or obnoxious...something MOST pros could learn from.

Although, I agree somewhat with what Pogue said...in that it is somewhat necessary to carry a little "attitude" in terms of playing at the top level, I disagree that it should come across as "arrogance"! This has been holding players back from 'big money' for at least 50 yrs. In most other professional sports, you get fined and/or suspended for a show of "arrogance". Too bad it is not the same for pool. JMO

Scott Lee

Chris Cass
12-16-2002, 05:02 PM
Hi Scott,

You and Popcorn hit on something there that is evident. One thing I'd like to add is confidence can be seen while shooting. You can look at every pool players regardless of skill and while they shoot a ball they know they will make. The confidence you see is in the stroke, body language and especially the eyes. You can also see failer, doom and a list of others too. It can be a shark technique also. There's something to be said about playing someone you personally find offensive. It detracts from your concentration.

Regards,

C.C.

cheesemouse
12-16-2002, 05:10 PM
Popcorn,
You are right on the money and the advanced players that don't get off the bench and play with the 'champions' are missing out on the cheapest pool lesson they will ever get. If you love this game get out there and compete there is nothing in this game more rewarding than doing well against tough players. Even if you get your butt thumped bigtime you still haven't waisted your pool dollars. I know lots of players who's attitude is: "I'm not going to donate to those guys". These are also the same players who haven't improved their level of play for years and years and with that attitude they never will...I agree completely with you Popcorn. You made this statement about the non-players:
[ QUOTE ]
"I would not play that guy no matter how much weight he gave me." Why? <hr /></blockquote>
the answer is no heart....

12-17-2002, 12:11 AM
You are right in part where Efren doesn't have it..., not arrogance, but he does have plenty of confidence. And it brings to the point where I disagree with your idea. I believe it takes confidence, not arrogance to climb up to the top. The big difference between the two is that a confidence ooses out like a scent, you can see it, smell it and feel it out of the person without a single word. But for arrogance, you will hear about it until your ear aches. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Sunnyday

Chris Cass
12-17-2002, 12:40 AM
Good thoughts Sunnyday,

Players can sence conidence. That's where the term, "I put the guy in stroke?" came from. That's all too true. A lapse in displaying confidence in a match adds to the oponents confidence in a match. Any weaknesses seen by your opponent often pumps them up. Arrogance is used to distract the mental side also but veiwed in a negative way. I myself prefer intimidation through performance and style that upsets the mental side of my opponent.

I try to do this through, shots played at certain speeds and reley on sounds and manipulation of the table. I look for weaknesses in my opponents play to fuel my desire for control. I look for the zone constantly. Sometimes I find it and sometimes, I feel like dropping my head into a bucket of raw eggs. LOL

Good post,

C.C.~~ /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif welcome to the board Sunnyday.....

CarolNYC
12-17-2002, 05:00 AM
Hey POgue,
I would just like to add this situation-it is not arrogance-being a tournament player, I have found that once at the table-thats it-we are not friends-its called competition time now-I had a difficult time in the beginning with this-I'd slack!-off the table we could be bestfriends-but once gametime starts-I dont know you,ya know what I mean?
Carol~plays to win!Thats what its all about!

arn3
12-17-2002, 06:25 AM
i don't think this is relegated to pool. it is a characteristic of ANYONE who is at the top of his profession. and i don't think it is confidence. confidence is a rather mild term. people at the top think their way is the best, whether they think their peers have a valid point of view or not. what is important is that they think that their way is the best way. so yes, they are arrogant, but it is arrogance that leads to superior performance.

mike sigel is a case in point. and his arguement about CB spin not changing the path of the OB is a good example. now, if he believes this to be true, who are we to argue what's right to him. in his mind, he is absolutely right, and that's waht counts.

Tom_In_Cincy
12-17-2002, 07:33 AM
Chris,
Talk about taking it to your opponent, He played my safe on the 7 ball on this layout.

START(
%GC7U0%HC8X7%IE7Q0%PZ1Y5%UC7D7%VC8T2%Wr6M0%XC6V0%Y N5G8%Zs1L8
%[D0W3%\M5H0%]D0V6%^Y4Y5%eC3a4
)END

I cut the 7 into the other corner pocket, got the shape on the 8 and made a slow roll shot to get a good shot on the nine.

The cut on the 7 was one of my favorite practice shots. Using the inside english to cut the 7 at the right speed is a great confidence builder. At the practice table, this is what I usually practice. Inside english.. the pool players nemisis. I still get nervous shooting any shot with 'inside'

12-17-2002, 10:06 AM
Good post! I tend to believe arrogant people boring while confident people are not at all boring. Boring another is a way of being oppressive with respect to others, I think.

Steve