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View Full Version : Why r there no AFRICAN AMERICANS at the top .. ?



bigbro6060
12-18-2002, 05:35 PM
of the Pool world ?

It's not like Tennis and Golf which are still mainly middle/upper class white sports (odd exceptions of course)

Pool is accessible to all, is probably more 'working' class than many sports so there shouldn't be any socio-economic issues.

I guess more African americans still prefer sports like Bball, Football, atheletics etc

Voodoo Daddy
12-18-2002, 05:58 PM
Wow, /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif thats a different question. Kinda like Phil in SoFla posted about the sharking techniques of latins and asians awhile back.

There is/has been some hard-hittin black players like Rags Woods, Willie "the BEAD man" Munson, Cisero{sp}Murphy, Strawberry Brooks, Lotsa Poppa, Monster John, Ike Runnels and Cliff Joyner. All rural neighborhoods hold a real player...choosing not to venture outside of their digs. I remember Johnny Ervolino telling me about the man that taught him pool, Johnny went to Harlem to learn from him and he said this guy was the smoothest he ever saw. I bet #### Leonard knows some more from his hayday. I know in my travels in South I have come across some solid black players that could stand up with the top half of the tour today...in my opinion!!

silverbullet
12-18-2002, 06:40 PM
I have seen some decent local Black players. Can't see anything physical that would limit them.

blu

arn3
12-18-2002, 07:11 PM
there is no "physical" advantage for african americans at the pool table.

bigbro6060
12-18-2002, 07:37 PM
Physicallity is so not a factor in pool, you have little asians and big beefy white dudes (Shannon the cannon) at the top of the game

it's all about the talent pool and which types of people generally choose to play the game

Vagabond
12-18-2002, 08:17 PM
Hi voodoo,
One more to your list- `cannon Ball`.I do not remember his actual name.He might be in 80s? Jim Rempe introduced me to cannon Ball in 1994 in Cj`s place in Dallas.I felt honored to meet the greats like him.By the way your buddy Arvelino is still loking for action.I ran into him in Vegas 2 months ago.He keeps looking at me but I did not say hello to him.In 1987 he agreed to play me but later he played another guy who bet more money than I wanted to bet for an even game.Cheers
vagabond /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

silverbullet
12-18-2002, 08:22 PM
i believe that there are some racial physiological difference which tend to give a race of people (in general) and edge in certain very physical sports.

i just dont see that this would matter in pool. regardless of the race, opportunity is a factor and to a degree the kind of family a person grew up in, ie were their talents and interests encouraged. Did the family believe enough in their child's dreams to make sacrifices, even financial ones, to help them try for their goals.

I know in my family, which wasnt wealthy, my sister and I both went without luxuries for our kids to pursue musical and sports interests. Even if our children did not become champions, at least they got the chance to try. I have seen parents of all races willing to make sacrifices to give their child a chance.

blu

Chris Cass
12-18-2002, 08:31 PM
Ever hear of Buggs Rucker? How bout Rodney my 1P mentor and I just bought him some new hub caps just last mth. Not all players are looking for the fame in this sport. Many can be satisfied with the cash. I know...

Regards,

C.C.

Troy
12-18-2002, 09:12 PM
This was covered a while ago with numerous players of color mentioned.

Troy

Voodoo Daddy
12-18-2002, 09:46 PM
I knew Vagabond and Chris Cass would pick up the slack for me. Slim Carney is a old friend of mine too <I have a redhead on the brain these days> Watched Bugs in Michigan play at the US Open 1-hole. Piggy, I really dogged it there. I sweated him for days at the Derby 2000. Thanks boys...

Scott Lee
12-19-2002, 01:46 AM
Vagabond...The Cannonball I am familiar with (there was a white guy named Cannonball too), aka John Chapman, was an alcoholic in his 60's, that I used to see during the U.S. Opens, in Chicago, in the early 70's. I heard he died...I think I read about his death in Pool & Billiard Magazine,
but I was almost sure it was 15 yrs ago! LOL Just goes to show ya how good a hustler he really was! He was still hustling 8 years after he DIED (when you said you saw him in 1994)! LOL

Scott Lee

arn3
12-19-2002, 03:22 AM
those physiological differences of which you speak simply don't come into play in the pool world. there are several reasons why the phillipinos export great pool players, not the least of which, is the esteem that pool has in that country. it is also a poor country, and as in many 3rd world areas, sports is the best ticket to a better life.

there are some other reasons, regarding the psychology of the phillipino male that were told to me by some female phillipino friends, but those things would sound racist coming from my lips.

Robert Pirrazzi
12-19-2002, 03:45 AM
Voodoo, That African American player who taught JohnnyErvolino was James Evans. Johnny told me so much about him. He said Evans was just as good as Greenleaf, and ALL top pros in the 40's and 50'sgot a spot from him in the straight pool, Mosconiincluded. He told me that he used to watch Evansand Johnny Irish play 75 no count on a 5 by 10table with 4 1/4" pockets!! Johnny also said MarvinHenderson from California was probably best allaround African American player after Evans. Bob

silverbullet
12-19-2002, 05:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote arn3:</font><hr> those physiological differences of which you speak simply don't come into play in the pool world. <hr /></blockquote>

I think if you reread my post, you will see that I said physiological differences seem to matter in many sports but NOT pool. What matters is did their family encourage them to reach their dreams!!! And this attitude has nothing to do with race!!!

blu

Ward
12-19-2002, 07:03 AM
Vagabond

I believe his name is J.C. Chapman? I think he is still in the area...
Later

Fred Agnir
12-19-2002, 07:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote arn3:</font><hr> those physiological differences of which you speak simply don't come into play in the pool world. there are several reasons why the phillipinos export great pool players, not the least of which, is the esteem that pool has in that country. it is also a poor country, and as in many 3rd world areas, sports is the best ticket to a better life.<hr /></blockquote>
This is 100% true. Not every Filipino player plays well. Those that don't, don't get to any level because they can't make money at it. And they go on to something else.

[ QUOTE ]
there are some other reasons, regarding the psychology of the phillipino male that were told to me by some female phillipino friends, but those things would sound racist coming from my lips. <hr /></blockquote>
The Filipino psychology? I guess coupled with the reason in the above quoted first paragraph, one of the ways to make any kind of life is and will continue to be gambling. Gambling to live is quite a bit different than gambling for what you can afford to lose. The cream tends to rise to the top. The rest go hungry. So, some would say that the Filipino pysche is wired for gambling.

Fred

Alfie
12-19-2002, 08:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bigbro6060:</font><hr> of the Pool world? <hr /></blockquote> It's whitey's fault. He has his boot on the black man's neck.


/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Popcorn
12-19-2002, 08:32 AM
I am not sure if I am reading what you wrote correctly. I knew both of them, the black cannon ball was John Chapman and the white guy was Eddie Kanouaski (sp?) I think Eddie was the one who died and I don't know about John.

Wally_in_Cincy
12-19-2002, 08:35 AM
There's at least one up-and-comer out in CA. Michelle Rakin is 17 and IIRC won the junior nationals last year and came in 2nd this year. She also has 3 younger sisters and a younger brother who play quite well.
.................................................. ..........
Michelle Rakin

Daly City, CA

2001 Winnings: $1,070.00

2001 Tournament Results:
$415.00 1st place Western Women's Regional Tour Event 2
$265.00 2nd place Western Women's Regional Tour Event 3
$390.00 1st place Western Women's Regional Tour Event 4

Scott Lee
12-19-2002, 09:13 AM
Popcorn...Yes, that's right! I thought the article Tom Shaw wrote about Eddie, mentioned that Chapman had died much earlier, as I believe Eddie just died in the last few years. I could be mistaken! It wouldn't be the first time! LOL

Scott

Voodoo Daddy
12-19-2002, 09:33 AM
James Evans...thats the guy...good work!!

Troy
12-19-2002, 09:35 AM
The Rakin Family is of Philipino decent. Michelle is now 18 with two younger sisters and twin brothers. Dante Sr. is a single parent. While Michelle is an excellent pool player, she is more interested in her education and is going to be a Pediatrician.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> There's at least one up-and-comer out in CA. Michelle Rakin is 17 and IIRC won the junior nationals last year and came in 2nd this year. She also has 3 younger sisters and a younger brother who play quite well.
.................................................. ..........
Michelle Rakin

Daly City, CA

2001 Winnings: $1,070.00

2001 Tournament Results:
$415.00 1st place Western Women's Regional Tour Event 2
$265.00 2nd place Western Women's Regional Tour Event 3
$390.00 1st place Western Women's Regional Tour Event 4 <hr /></blockquote>

Wally_in_Cincy
12-19-2002, 10:20 AM
thanx troy

Popcorn
12-19-2002, 11:17 AM
I went on the road with Eddie, and what a whack job he was. It was amazing though he could go into a poolroom with no action and manage to win money. He could play too, it took a stone champion to beat him at almost any game.

arn3
12-19-2002, 12:15 PM
actually fred, the "psychology" of which i speak has nothing to do with gambling.... let's just say it has more to do with the "character" of the the phillipino male. and let me reiterate, this is something told to me by several of my female phillipino friends. not from me /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif:)

Fred Agnir
12-19-2002, 01:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote arn3:</font><hr> actually fred, the "psychology" of which i speak has nothing to do with gambling.... let's just say it has more to do with the "character" of the the phillipino male. and let me reiterate, this is something told to me by several of my female phillipino friends. not from me /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif:) <hr /></blockquote>
It's most likely all true.

Now let me say something about Filipino women...

Fred

Tom_In_Cincy
12-19-2002, 01:28 PM
There are plenty of pool players with various enthnic backgrounds that play Pool and Billiards.

Why just ask about African Americans? Are there any other minority groups you are curious about? how about Eskimos, or South Americans?

Pool players are pool players. Why does ethnic background have to be considered?

Jimmy Mendoza
12-19-2002, 04:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Troy:</font><hr> While Michelle is an excellent pool player, she is more interested in her education and is going to be a Pediatrician.
<hr /></blockquote>

School offers the potential to become a pediatrician, while pool offers the potential to become a PEDESTRIAN! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Jimmy Mendoza
12-19-2002, 04:33 PM
I never saw him play (before my time), but I've heard plenty of stories about Cisero Murphy. Mark Tad hit 'em pretty damn straight when he was playing too! I remember one year, in L.A., they had a 9-ball, banks, and one-pocket tournament. Mark won the 9-ball, won the banks, and came in second in the one-pocket.

12-19-2002, 04:35 PM
I got to see Cecil Tugwell play in Kansas about 7 to 10 years ago! a great one pocket player,not sure of his age or where he was from,he was mentioned in playing off the rail,i beleave aganst Keith Mccreedy. HAPPY HITTIN.

cheesemouse
12-19-2002, 04:44 PM
Jimmy,
What ever happened to Tad? I saw him play in Vegas. The guy was a stone cold champion.

bigbro6060
12-19-2002, 05:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> There are plenty of pool players with various enthnic backgrounds that play Pool and Billiards.

Why just ask about African Americans? Are there any other minority groups you are curious about? how about Eskimos, or South Americans?

Pool players are pool players. Why does ethnic background have to be considered? <hr /></blockquote>

Tom, u say why curious

it is because there are so many ethnic groups represented in Pool that i am curious

There are many great asian players, european players, american players etc

but there doesn't seem to be any african americans at the very top. Sure you guys have named good local players, but i'm talking about the very top of the game

African americans have representatives at the top of so many sports, so i wondered, why not pool

Eskimos don't seem to dominate any sport so there's no comparison

this isn't supposed to be a racist dig or anything like that. I love the multicultural nature of pool, was just curious that's all /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Popcorn
12-19-2002, 10:34 PM
I will tell you a funny story involving Chapman. In the early 70s I was at a tournament in Tampa put on by Bill Steagll(sp?) These tournaments only had prize funds of around $2000 but they drew everybody because the action was non stop. Chapman was a very good Bank player and at this tournament Joey and a very young Gary Spath were there. About 3 in the morning Chapman wants to make a game with Gary playing banks. I forget what the games was, but they start to play and Chapman has been drinking. Gary is making everything, it looks like he could win even. Chapman ends up going broke and has to quit. It is now around 8am and here comes Joey. Gary runs up to him excited about the score. He had won something like $300. playing for $30. a game. Joey is all smiles until he heard Chapman lost another $4000. on the side. Joey grabs Gary yelling "Why didn't you come and wake me up, we have a bankroll, that was your money they won." He is hurting Gary and had to be pulled off him, Gary was crying, it was terrible.

TomBrooklyn
12-20-2002, 07:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr>Why does ethnic background have to be considered? <hr /></blockquote>Why not, Tom? I think it's good, or at least nice to be aware of one's race and ethnicity and to recognize others.

A little friendly interethnic/regional/national/racial/ competition never hurt anyone either; except where some people get so intensely into the competition that they lose rationality or become hateful towards the opponent. The race card is volitile of course. It has not been that long since blacks were outwardly discriminated against in the U.S. and the wounds are still a bit sensitive.

Fred Agnir
12-20-2002, 08:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bigbro6060:</font><hr> but there doesn't seem to be any african americans at the very top. Sure you guys have named good local players, but i'm talking about the very top of the game<hr /></blockquote>
But... Cisero Murphy was at the top of the game. World Champion 14.1 and Hall of Famer.

Bugs Rucker is considered one of the all-time greatest bank players.

Mark Tad won several major professional events, including both divisions of the LA Open several years ago.

We're not talking local shortstops.

Fred

silverbullet
12-20-2002, 09:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bigbro6060:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> There are plenty of pool players with various enthnic backgrounds that play Pool and Billiards.

Why just ask about African Americans? Are there any other minority groups you are curious about? how about Eskimos, or South Americans?

Pool players are pool players. Why does ethnic background have to be considered? <hr /></blockquote>

Tom, u say why curious

it is because there are so many ethnic groups represented in Pool that i am curious

There are many great asian players, european players, american players etc

but there doesn't seem to be any african americans at the very top. Sure you guys have named good local players, but i'm talking about the very top of the game

African americans have representatives at the top of so many sports, so i wondered, why not pool

Eskimos don't seem to dominate any sport so there's no comparison

this isn't supposed to be a racist dig or anything like that. I love the multicultural nature of pool, was just curious that's all /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

give em a chance. they been busy with other sports. i feel the % will rise in next ten years as it has for women.

while there are no physical disadvantages, i can think of a couple of things that might give centain black players an edge... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

blu

#### leonard
12-20-2002, 12:33 PM
Voodoo I met Rotation Slim in the late 50s he came thru Troy I think by that time he was in his late 60s. Earl Herring of Newburgh,NY gave up pool for the ministry after losing to Jean Balukas in the Worlds Tourny. I had a friend a retired black NY cop, who swore that Evans was the best. I first met him watching a pool game at the 7/11 in NYC when he retired he moved to Saratoga and we became good friends. He loved pool and watching good games. ####

#### leonard
12-20-2002, 12:39 PM
Eddie Keanowski had more moves than a snake when he was entertaining with the pool cue. I saw he put on a half hour show in Syracuse after losing a match to Jimmy Quick of Elmira/Binghamton. It needed to be televised it was that good. Quick beat him with safety play he never had one breakshot in the whole game.####

snipershot
12-20-2002, 01:37 PM
i do think african americans prefer to play sports like basketball baseball and football.

the reason for this might be that like pool, these sports are also "working class" sports and are probably more accessible than pool. It is more common in my community to see african americans playing these sports.

The reason why african americans aren't at the top is simply because they choose to accel in other sports.

Jimmy Mendoza
12-20-2002, 02:38 PM
I know he quit playing for a while. Had some personal problems, then found religion, then I don't know what else. Last I heard, he was starting to play again and living back in Salt Lake. I really think that, around the time he won those tournaments, he was playing as good as anyone.

Tom_In_Cincy
12-20-2002, 05:18 PM
Tom,

I think its important for everyone to konw their heritege.
And to be deversified in your views about all cultures.

This question just hit me the wrong way. I've lived and fought against these prejudices and still live in a time where ethnic predjudice is still practiced.

Now, its just not as open as it was years ago.

I still think its a racists comment/question.. but I don't think it was intentional, nor meant to be malicious.

I just reacted hastely.. and vented

John G
12-20-2002, 05:33 PM
Johnny Chapman, I think thats how he spelled it. Real solid
player

John G
12-20-2002, 05:44 PM
HaHaHaHa, very true

bigbro6060
12-20-2002, 06:48 PM
Tom, your right mate, no one here including myself had/has any malicious intentions

It is a bit of the sign of the times we live in though (and this is by no mean directed at you mate), that you can't mention anything that involves differences between humans (race, sex, sexual orientation, height, weight etc etc) without offending someone and being branded some kind of discriminating monster.

IMHO political correctness has gone way too far and people have become way too sensitive and i think look to be offended just so they stand on their political soapbox.

BTW whilst i was born in England and now live in Australia, i am actually part Burmese /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif so no i'm not the single, middle class white male /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

TomBrooklyn
12-27-2002, 07:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> I still think its a racist question...<hr /></blockquote>Of course it's a racist question, it's about a particular race. But what's wrong with that? Racism has such a negative connotation these days! It's very stereotyped and widely discriminated against.

TomBrooklyn
12-31-2002, 10:26 AM
By the way bro, no pun intended, I think everyone knew that by African Americans you meant negroes, or blacks as many prefer to call themselves nowadays; but African American is a pretty confusing moniker popularized recently by some folks for reasons I don't fully comprehend.

There are many whites, of English decent I think, who live in South Africa. And if one wanted to argue that they have only been there since the Imperialistic heyday of a century ago or so; that still leaves the caucasion Arab peoples from various countries in North Africa who may be amongst the earliest homo sapiens to inhabit the planet. Surely Arabs, especially the ones who were born in North Africa and who currently enjoy imigratant status in the U.S. are true African Americans.

It's also unclear to me if African American is only meant to refer to blacks that live in the United States or to blacks that live anywhere in the Americas, from the southern tip of Chile in South America to the northern reaches of Canada in North America. I suppose it excludes blacks living in Europe or anywhere in the Eastern Hemisphere. I'm not sure though, I don't know exactly what it's suppossed to mean.

-TB

jjinfla
12-31-2002, 01:06 PM
Who Cares? But it must be because they are losers. Jake

TomBrooklyn
12-31-2002, 04:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Voodoo Daddy:</font><hr>Strawberry Brooks<hr /></blockquote>Melvin 'Strawberry' Brooks was in his prime in the late sixties. He matched up with and did quite well against Richie Florence, Grady Mathews, Mike Sigel, and Bill Staton, amongst others. He was a good one-pocket player.

It was reported that he once made this shot against "Little Red" Tony Rhome around 1976 at Jimmie's "Golden Cue" in N.W. Washington D.C.:
http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html
START(%BI3\1%Er7V6%Ig2T5%JX7[9%PC3I2%UJ9\0%Vq5V4%Wu6T6%XD4I5%Ys9V5%Zv4U0%[C2\7%\H6\0%eB9a4)END

They were playing after hours, and the only other people there were a guy named "Fat" Joe who was betting on Melvin, and "Paper Bags", the houseman. The story was told however, that after he made that shot, Little Red unscrewed his cue even though Melvin needed two more balls, and never asked Strawberry to play one pocket again.

=TB

(p.s. That snow makes working with the RSB Table exceptionally difficult, and I have a DSL Connection. Whoever turned that snow on really should turn it back off.)

Rod
12-31-2002, 05:03 PM
Tom that's why a download to your desk top is better. Drag a shortcut to the task bar or to the desktop. This link is a nine ball rack and no snow. It does have the other 6 balls below if needed, usually not. If everyone would use this link it sure would be easier. Note, using different links puts the balls in different positions. If we set this as a standard and no snow, that would be much easier to see. The other screen is about black. http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/download/pooltable2.exe