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View Full Version : Can a ref's foul call be challenged?



CarolNYC
12-19-2002, 03:44 AM
On league, came off cushion to hit 4-ball crossside-this wei table thing is not working correctly,sorry, but as soon as I hit the cushion ,cueball off cushion into 4-ball-ref calls foul?4-ball bing binged across table! Any reason why it was a foul-
Carol~just wondering if refs word is THE WORD!:)

Nostroke
12-19-2002, 06:36 AM
HI carol-I m not sure you can challenge, but you can certainly ask what the foul was- No rail, illegal jump, double hit? What did he say? and you?

cheesemouse
12-19-2002, 07:32 AM
Carol,
There are so many different situations where we call refs in like, league play, funnzy pool, big tournys, little local tournys, gambling sessions and there is no way one can be confident the ref is competent to be a ref in the first place. That being said in most situations it has been my experience once the shot is off whatever the ref calls is 'the word' and even though it is obvious to you it was a bad call it is too late and even if you are allowed a protest chances are it will be fruitless. The only way I know of to sell your side of the shot is to get some kind of agreement on the motion of the balls that a good hit will result in and what motion of the balls a bad hit will result in and all this has to take place before you shoot the shot...I've played in tournaments where the only thing that can be said to the ref is by the shooter and all he/she can say is "this is the ball I am shooting at", that being said once the shot is off and the ref makes the call anything said by either player can result in the ref calling lose of game against the protester.

I guess the moral of the story is try and sell your shot before hand not after the fact.

randyg
12-19-2002, 07:49 AM
Hi Carol. There are two areas in which a Ref has to respond. You may always challenge the Ref on a rule interpretation. You may never challenge the Ref on a "judgement" call...Merry Christmas...randyg

Barbara
12-19-2002, 09:13 AM
Carol,

You should've asked what was the foul was the ref called. Just like in baseball, you can't argue the ref's call, whether it was good or bad. But like RandyG pointed out, if the ref is making a rule interpretation, you can question that, just don't make an argument out of it.

Barbara

CarolNYC
12-19-2002, 11:57 AM
Thank you Cheesemouse,randy,Nostroke and Barb,
It seems it was my fault-he did not know what my intentions were, which is what I should have a;lerted him to! He probably called the foul caused I didnt hit the 4-ball first and came off the rail first-oh well, next time, I will absolutely let him know the intention!
And merry Xmas to you all-stay safe!
Carol:):):

Sid_Vicious
12-19-2002, 12:40 PM
I seemed to have missed the answer to one question, if you got one. Where was the foul in hitting a rail(kick shot) instead of hitting the 4 direct? maybe I missed something here, but I read that question into Carol's post, along with the challenging of the ref...sid

Wally_in_Cincy
12-19-2002, 12:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr>


....It seems it was my fault-he did not know what my intentions were, which is what I should have alerted him to! He probably called the foul cause I didnt hit the 4-ball first and came off the rail first- ....<hr /></blockquote>

How is it your fault? Sounds like a lame ref. Hell my APA players could call that one right.

silverbullet
12-19-2002, 12:56 PM
I am confused with how this could have been a foul. I thought that as long as the 4 hit a rail or went into a pocket, it wasnt a foul. Would have wondered what rule that reff was using.

blu

smfsrca
12-19-2002, 01:35 PM
Did it have to do with whether or not you called your shot?
I know of some leagues where the intended pocket must be clearly indicated and it is a foul not to do so.
Even BCA requires non-obvious shots be called although I'm not sure what the penalty is if you don't.
Steve

#### leonard
12-19-2002, 04:51 PM
I think the all time can the Ref be challenged happened in a Worlds Tournament game betweeen Luther Lassiter and Jack Colavita. It is down to the end of the game with each needing the rack on the table to win. Colavita plays a jam up safty and the ref calls foul putting Lassiter in the drivers seat. The crowd saw that Jacks hit was legal and called the ref on it. Lassiter agreed that it was a legal safety and Jack won the game. It came out after the game that the ref had bet on Lasitter. ####

Vapros
12-19-2002, 09:26 PM
The only reason to have a referee or umpire is to have a final authority to rule when needed. Once you accept his or her presence and authority (by entering the tournament), there's nothing to do but abide by the decision. Where would one appeal? There's no one else.

CarolNYC
12-20-2002, 04:41 AM
Hey Sid,
I hope you can piture this cause htis wei thing is just not working for me!
Near side pocket 5-ball a ball witdh away from 4-ball(but b;locking side pocket)-I figured let me play a kick off the rail to hit 4 crossside-should I miss, opponent would be locked behind 5-should I make it, I had position on the 5-a friend said it was a "bad call!"
But I thank all for their answers-next time I will absolutely make my intentions known!
Have a Merry Xmas!
Carol

CarolNYC
12-20-2002, 05:03 AM
Boy Wally,
I wish you were the REF!:):)
Happy Holidays!
Carol~Merry Xmas

CarolNYC
12-20-2002, 05:07 AM
I hear you Barb,
But if anyone has ever seen Barb stand to watch a shot,dont question it-at least I wouldnt-she'd throw me out on my tush? and then no more addictive nuts for me!ha ha ha
love ya,
Carol

CarolNYC
12-20-2002, 05:10 AM
Ah,ha,
Undertable bet, well Im glad the crowd said something and happy Jack took it!:)
Happy Holidays!
Carol:):):)

SpiderMan
12-20-2002, 01:14 PM
Carol,

You said this was league play, what sort of league? The cueball contacted the four before any other balls, and the four contacted a rail afterwards, correct? Unless the one, two, or three were still on the table, I know of no rules that say this is a foul, regardless of what your intentions were.

If you're playing "call shot", then you wouldn't get credit for the ball if it went, but if it didn't it would just be a plain miss and no foul.

What sort of foul did he call you on? Did he say you hit the five first?

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> Hey Sid,
I hope you can piture this cause htis wei thing is just not working for me!
Near side pocket 5-ball a ball witdh away from 4-ball(but b;locking side pocket)-I figured let me play a kick off the rail to hit 4 crossside-should I miss, opponent would be locked behind 5-should I make it, I had position on the 5-a friend said it was a "bad call!"
But I thank all for their answers-next time I will absolutely make my intentions known!
Have a Merry Xmas!
Carol
<hr /></blockquote>

CarolNYC
12-20-2002, 03:35 PM
START(
%B]7B8%CK8O4%DM8N1%FL8P0%GL8N7%HN7N8%IM7O3%JL8M5%KK8P 6%LK8N1
%ML8Q2%NK8Q8%O_5C9%Pa3D9%eB9a4
)END
This wei thing is wearing me out with its snowflakes-ugh-picture the ball by side pocket the 5-ball-the other is the 4-ball-I come off the rail to crossside the 4-ball with enough speed,if it misses, it'll roll back, know Im behind the 5-like ,a double play shot-as soon as I hit the rail, ref calls FOUL!-I didnt question-didnt think I could-but like I said, next time I will relay my intentions!
Have a wonderful holiday!
Carol~see ya in Vegas!:):):)

jjinfla
12-20-2002, 04:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> -picture the ball by side pocket the 5-ball-the other is the 4-ball-I come off the rail to crossside the 4-ball with enough speed,if it misses, it'll roll back, know Im behind the 5-like ,a double play shot-as soon as I hit the rail, ref calls FOUL!-I didnt question-didnt think I could-but like I said, next time I will relay my intentions!
Have a wonderful holiday!
Carol~see ya in Vegas!:):):) <hr /></blockquote>
The ref must be a male chauvanistic pig! Of course you never do say that after the cue ball came off the rail and hit the 4 ball then either the 4 ball or the cue ball went on to hit a rail. Could you have double hit the CB? Other than that I don't know. I am amazed that you wouldn't ask for an explanation. What did your teammates tell you? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif If that happened where I play there would have been a whole lot of yelling and shouting, followed by someone getting hit with a cue stick, the cops would come. You know, just a typical nice, fun night out. Jake

Sid_Vicious
12-20-2002, 06:29 PM
This is frustrating. You either double hit the CB or else you are leaving a lot out of your answer here. And if you did not get a direct answer from the ref for the EXACT reason he called foul, then how are you expecting us to find the answer with what you have given us?

Hey People, please tell me something you understood that I didn't to clear me up on Carol's sage...sid

Barbara
12-20-2002, 06:47 PM
Yes, I do. You have to experience Carol in person to understand her speak. She moves about a mile a minute, but her typing doesn't. Okay, so now you have to know which words to insert which would require knowledge of her in the first place. Plus, that NY accent and the fact that she has memory recall beyond belief.

Carol is a personality all unto herself.

And rooms light up when she walks in!!!

Barbara~~~still doesn't see the shot, but knows there was a bad call... /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Tom_In_Cincy
12-20-2002, 06:50 PM
Carol,
Is this the shot?

START(
%AN7O5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%D_7F0%E]2D5%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%IL7O4%Pc2O3
%U[3Z6%V_4F7%_`9D4%`a7H9%ab8N4%b`2E5%c`2D8%d`5C5
)END

and go to this site and download a "non-snow" wei table.

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/download/pooltable2.exe


This is a downloadable wei table diagram.. that you can just click on and layout the table like you want.. and copy or paste.. you don't need to run this while you are connected to the internet.. it runs local off your hard drive.. good luck.. hope it helps

Sid_Vicious
12-20-2002, 09:22 PM
Will you please interpret this scenario as you see Carol's described shot? sid

CarolNYC
12-21-2002, 04:41 AM
Hey Tom, Yes, similiar,except 5 ball was on rail at tit of side pocket,4- ball closer to rail-otherwise I could have 4,5 combo,ya know! And thanks for the NON SNOW wei table-ha ha ha-it took me half an hour just to try to get the balls in position:)-I even lost some of the balls somewhere!I look at it now as lesson learned-I lost the match and focus because I didnt let it go-was upset knowing the hit was a good one-so now it is history!
You stay very well and thanks again!:)
Happy Holidays!
Carol:):):)

CarolNYC
12-21-2002, 04:58 AM
Hey there Jake,
This early in the morning I am smiling:):):)-you are too funny!It is individual 9-ball league-actually this ref likes me and knows I have a lot of respect for the game- what he saw-I have no idea!But, as I said, I will absolutely tell a ref my intentions from here on -have a wonderful holiday!Oh, also, pockets do not have to be called!
Carol~smiling at 6:00 am!:):):)

CarolNYC
12-21-2002, 05:04 AM
Thanks Barb,
I just know ref's are authority of knowledge and I respect that-just wanted to know if ref's can be questioned and aso, I had no chance to even question cause after the hit, he immediately picked up cueball and handed it to my opponent-oh well-NEXT!:)
Carol~called a ref maybe 4x!:):)