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View Full Version : Explain this if you can.........

Dafatman
12-22-2002, 02:36 PM
Something came to mind while I was watching some guys practicing a tough shot the other day, and I proposed this scenario to them......If you have to shoot this shot on the one ball and draw back to have a shot on the 8,with the cue ball only a ball width off the bottom rail, you have to jack up and hit extreme draw.START(
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Try it a couple of times. Now, same shot but there are two
balls directly in line with the shot and just close enough together that the cueball won't pass through them.START(
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Shoot the same shot and stroke as set up originally to get the draw back to shoot at the 8 ball. If your skills are such that you can execute this shot,(and by the way I can) in the second scenario you just gave ball in hand to the opponent. Why? Because to execute this shot close to the rail and striking the cue ball below the equator when jumping the two balls is a foul, yet the same stroke and impact on the cue ball in the first scenario is legal...Who's the non-playing rocket scientist who wrote the jump shot rule? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Tom_In_Cincy
12-22-2002, 07:41 PM
Excuse me.. but the second is a deliberate "jump shot".. and the first is just a plain ole difficult draw shot..

When you place the two balls in the way.. you changed the type of shot and the rules.

And, if executed correctly.. you can still hit the cue ball above the center line (equator) and get it to draw.

Dafatman
12-22-2002, 11:14 PM
Changing what you call the shot doesn't explaing the fact that both shots can be hit with the same contact point on the cue ball (below the equator) and the same cue elevation. The first shot is actually a jump shot,there's just not any balls in front of you to "define" it as a jump shot........ yet with the balls in play it becomes a foul.

Tom_In_Cincy
12-22-2002, 11:56 PM
You are absolutely correct.

its only a foul if you are attempting to jump balls.

12-23-2002, 12:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> You are absolutely correct.

its only a foul if you are attempting to jump balls.

<hr /></blockquote>

correct. it all goes to intent. it is as it should be. let me shoot scoops and you've seen your last safe on me.

dan

Dafatman
12-23-2002, 12:25 AM
Excuse me....you call a power draw, jacked up at the rail,drawing the cue ball back down table a "scoop"? Don't play Earl then.......

12-23-2002, 12:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Dafatman:</font><hr> Excuse me....you call a power draw, jacked up at the rail,drawing the cue ball back down table a "scoop"? Don't play Earl then....... <hr /></blockquote>

you're still not getting it. it's only a scoop if you go low with the intent of lofting it over something. usually another ball. a power draw is a power draw.

why is this so hard?

dan

Rod
12-23-2002, 12:32 AM
I've never seen a foul called on this jump or any other jump draw for that matter. The rules may need better wording. The reference is to scooping or digging under as stated. If hitting below center was a foul it would have been called many times over in local and pro tournaments. How would any ref determine if it was below center and make an accurate call? It's next to impossible unless the ball draws back. It could be hit below center and not draw because of distance or very little below center. This would put way to many variables on a jump shot. I'm sure if you contact John Lewis at the BCA web site he will give you a similar explanation.

3.26 ILLEGAL JUMPING OF BALL
It is a foul if a player strikes the cue ball below center (“digs under” or “lofts” the cue ball) and intentionally causes it to rise off the bed of the table in an effort to clear an obstructing ball. Such jumping action may occasionally occur accidentally, and such “jumps” are not to be considered fouls on their face; they may still be ruled foul strokes, if for example, the ferrule or cue shaft makes contact with the cue ball in the course of the shot.

3.27 JUMP SHOTS
Unless otherwise stated in rules for a specific game it is legal to cause the cue ball to rise off the bed of the table by elevating the cue stick on the shot, and forcing the cue ball to rebound from the bed of the table. Any miscue when executing a jump shot is a foul.

12-23-2002, 12:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> they may still be ruled foul strokes, if for example, the ferrule or cue shaft makes contact with the cue ball in the course of the shot.

<hr /></blockquote>

you have just identified one of the ugly little secrets of the bca rule book. as proven by the jacksonville tapes, almost all miscues involve the ferrule striking the ball and you've cited the rule which makes that a foul. officially, the bca has not made the jump and i think they should not, to declaring miscues fouls. but that rule gets you pretty close to it.

dan

Dafatman
12-23-2002, 01:03 AM
I must be missing something. By definition, to legally jump a ball I thought that the rules stated that the ball had to be struck above the "equator" otherwise it was a foul. I've seen it called in a tournament before when a ref was called over because it was obvious from the attack angle of the shot, even though it was elevated 30 degrees or more, that the player was aiming below the equator and the cue tip had to deflect and would in effect be an intentional miscue, (similiar to the old hustle shot of pocketing a ball frozsn to the cue ball, on the rail, at an
off-angle to the pocket)

My original point which seems so hard to grasp is that the first power draw shot off an elevated position against the rail is actually a jump shot, because the cue ball leaves the table enough to clear the two balls placed in front of the cue ball in the second scenario. With the same stroke in the first instance, shooting over the balls in the same manner is a foul by definition of the rules that we have adhered to. Are you telling me that it is not a foul to jump a ball by striking it below the equator as long as the cue is elevated some designated amount? Is this APA rules or something?

Rod
12-23-2002, 02:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Dafatman:</font><hr> I must be missing something. By definition, to legally jump a ball I thought that the rules stated that the ball had to be struck above the "equator" otherwise it was a foul. I've seen it called in a tournament before when a ref was called over because it was obvious from the attack angle of the shot, even though it was elevated 30 degrees or more, that the player was aiming below the equator and the cue tip had to deflect and would in effect be an intentional miscue, (similiar to the old hustle shot of pocketing a ball frozsn to the cue ball, on the rail, at an
off-angle to the pocket)

The cue tip always deflects except in the case of a perfect center ball hit. Because it deflects doesn't have anything to do with a miscue and is not a miscue. If you miscue it will probably be a stroke foul, ie ferrule or shaft hitting the c/b. If you don't miscue the cueball will be long gone and this would never happen. Jump shots are not necessarly defined by cue angle. Thats another problem with the rules, nothing stated about cue angle. Even at at a 10 degree angle the cue ball jumps. That would be enough to clear a small fraction of a ball in the way of a shot. The cue ball actually spends less time on the table than most people imagine. The center axis of the c/b is dependent on the cue angle. If you hit the c/b 1/64" below center at who knows what angle, how can that be called? They would never write a rule with so many variables. As stated the rules apply to an intentional scoop shot.

My original point which seems so hard to grasp is that the first power draw shot off an elevated position against the rail is actually a jump shot, because the cue ball leaves the table enough to clear the two balls placed in front of the cue ball in the second scenario. With the same stroke in the first instance, shooting over the balls in the same manner is a foul by definition of the rules that we have adhered to. Are you telling me that it is not a foul to jump a ball by striking it below the equator as long as the cue is elevated some designated amount? Is this APA rules or something? <hr /></blockquote>

Yes I am telling you it is not a foul, BCA rules as posted earlier. Once again there is no designated amount of cue elevation. Put a dime or a quarter about a foot in front of the direct line of a firm draw shot, little or no elevation is needed to clear the coin. We can't shoot with a level cue anyway. The rules needs a better explanation and hopefully it will happen in the next year or two. I encourage you to contact John Lewis at this link, http://www.bca-pool.com/aboutus/contactus.html He will reply, I could but I want you to get first hand info. If I'm wrong then my interpretation of the rule is wrong. Look up Texas Express rules which is what the Pro's play. APA etc I don't have a clue.

Jon from MN
12-23-2002, 09:45 AM
Any time you use draw the cb is off the table if you could slow a camera down it would show you that when struck below center the cb always come off the table. You notice this when you see a ball skid. Jon from mn

Dafatman
12-24-2002, 02:27 PM
I looked up the Texas Express rules, that I thought that I have been playing in tournaments and general play under for years and lo and behold......

6.9: Illegal Jump Shot

An illegal jump shot occurs when the cue ball is struck below the centerline by the cue stick tip, causing the cue ball to jump or lift above the playing surface (also referred to as scooping or digging under the cue ball). The penalty is cue ball-in-hand for the opponent.

As I said, and still say, the original draw shot is not considered a foul, even though the cue ball is struck below the centerline and is bounced so that it does "jump" off of the playing surface, as any experienced player should know. Yet when the two balls are placed in the "flight path" of the cue ball, and by definition becomes a "jump shot" striking the cue ball below the centerline(rule 6.9) becomes a foul stroke in our neighborhood. This is the whole point of my original post, the lack of clarity in the rules, and people's inability to grasp the true definition.

PS I think that it is impossible to hit a "scoop" shot and get any draw to speak of.

12-24-2002, 02:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Dafatman:</font><hr> I looked up the Texas Express rules, that I thought that I have been playing in tournaments and general play under for years and lo and behold......

6.9: Illegal Jump Shot

An illegal jump shot occurs when the cue ball is struck below the centerline by the cue stick tip, causing the cue ball to jump or lift above the playing surface (also referred to as scooping or digging under the cue ball). The penalty is cue ball-in-hand for the opponent.

As I said, and still say, the original draw shot is not considered a foul, even though the cue ball is struck below the centerline and is bounced so that it does "jump" off of the playing surface, as any experienced player should know. Yet when the two balls are placed in the "flight path" of the cue ball, and by definition becomes a "jump shot" striking the cue ball below the centerline(rule 6.9) becomes a foul stroke in our neighborhood. This is the whole point of my original post, the lack of clarity in the rules, and people's inability to grasp the true definition.

PS I think that it is impossible to hit a "scoop" shot and get any draw to speak of.
<hr /></blockquote>

dude...you've had some of the most expert minds try to straighten you out on this thing and you just want to keep arguing. you can fight all you want but the way it's played is that if you intend to clear a ball by jumping over it you better be stroking downward and hitting above center, driving the c.b. into the bed. that's the way the world does it, like it or not.

as they say around here: "i can explain it to you but i can't understand it for you."

good luck

dan

Tom_In_Cincy
12-24-2002, 05:51 PM
Dafatman

Drawing the cue ball causes it to jump (as your example pointed out). Stiking it below center causes it to have backsping and after striking the ob, the cb reverses.

Jumping the cue ball (as in your example) by hitting it DELIBERTLY below center is a foul.

I think you are just saying that "The similarity of these two actions should be the same ruling." either a good hit or a foul.

I also think that you would agree that it is much easier to execute a jump shot if you were allowed to shoot it below center. But, then you would also have to admit that this is not a "normal" stroke and that 'scooping and lifting' the cue ball 'intentionally' is a foul.

All this considered, your point is understood.

Untill the rules are better defined, it is best to accept them untill you and others get them changed.

Rod
12-24-2002, 07:36 PM
Quote Daftman, An illegal jump shot occurs when the cue ball is struck below the centerline by the cue stick tip, causing the cue ball to jump or lift above the playing surface (also referred to as scooping or digging under the cue ball)."

You still have interpreted the rule wrong. Notice the qualifier is in parenthesis. It is known as scooping or digging under. Hitting below center is not illegal unless it is a scoop or diging under. Contact, John McChesney at jm@texasexpress.com. He will tell you just like John Lewis at BCA it is not a foul. You can use your interpretation but I'd suggest not picking up a c/b after such as a foul. If you played at mens pro tour events, and I have, Id just take the c/b back giving me ball in hand! Go direct to the source if you dont' believe me. You know, the guys that enforce the rules, not second hand info since that doesn't seem to work.

Dafatman
12-25-2002, 11:25 PM
Tom,
Thank you for your re-iteration of what I have been trying to say since my first example. It seems that someone finally grasped my point. Cheers to ya.....

I knew it would bring up some conversations but jeez some people are a bit narrow minded and self righteous.