View Full Version : About wolf-dogs [long]

12-24-2002, 07:21 AM
How you get a 92% wolf-dog: [some breeders in some states are getting pure timberwolves from canada for breeding purposes. if it isn't illegal, imo, it is immoral and despicable]

100% + 0% = 50%
100% + 50% = 75%
100% + 75% = 87.5
100% + 87.5 = 93.75
93.75 + 87.5 = 90.65
90.625 + 93.75 = 92.186

Unless the breeder has a lot of wolves and dogs from different lines, this sounds like a lot of inbreeding to me. I did not know any of this when i got sammy,but he died too young and my brother had one die of autoimmune very young too. I have talked to many, including my brother, about why it is wrong to breed wolves with dogs, but many people are not listening.

Here is a piece of what the North American Alliance of wolves (NAWA) has to say about wolf-dogs.

"On the subject of Wolfdogs

There is a hidden cruelty behind the captive wolf and wolfdog trade.
It is our life's work, to put an end to it. Breeders are motivated by profit.
When you hand over the check, what takes place is called, "immediate gratification". Rarely is there any educational benefit afforded the buyer -
it might kill the sale. When the new owner gets this animal home and the novelty wears off, and the sobering reality of exactly how much work this is going to be sets in... the animal is often "dumped". Sometimes, they are passed hand to hand like a child caught in the foster-care system.

Sometimes, they're simply killed. The new "family" often discovers that this animal cannot be forced to alter their natural characteristics to fit neatly
into a suburban lifestyle. They are not dogs. They do not behave as dogs do.
They cannot be "trained" to perform in a polite, agreeable manner.
Animals who have 50% or more wolf DNA are, for all intensive purposes, in their own mind - wolf.
Wolves are opportunists. That's the way the
Creator made them. Opportunists seize opportunities.
This animal is a good animal, he or she wants to do good, they want to please you - you
can see it in their eyes. But, make no mistake - they are still opportunists -
and when an opportunity presents itself, everything you tried to "teach" them flies right out of their little brains with all the speed of a run-away freight train. Trust me on this.
Underneath all that gorgeous fur on their face, is the word
"Mischief", tattooed into their foreheads.
Don't make yourself a sandwich and leave it on the coffee table (or in
some cases, the counter-top) while you look for the remote control.
And, when you return and discover the deed done -
don't try to take the sandwich back.
Don't leave pantry doors open, garbage pails out in the open and whatever
you do, don't leave them unsupervised for any length of time.
I once mistakenly left the pantry door open while I went to the mail box -
it was only 15 yards away. When I returned, Miss Mitake` had every box
of rice, every sack of beans, every bag of lentils, every container of pasta
and every possible piece of dry goods in that pantry open and strewn -
not only throughout the kitchen- but on into the living room, down the
hallway and into my office - I was only gone for three minutes!
A year later, I was still vacuuming up rice from behind the sofa.
Speaking of sofa's - don't fall in love with your furniture, unless you
happen to be of a mind that teeth-marks in your cherry-wood dining room table is "chic". Keep your "Dustbuster" well charged, splinters will be
peppered throughout your home on a consistent basis. Everyone who comes here has heard me say, "The main source of dietary fiber in this house is wolf-hair".. it gets into everything.
Don't get too attached to a nice yard either. Ours looks like it's been contracted by the military for tactical maneuvers and laced with land mines.
If there's something down there -anything at all; old tennis shoes, dirty rags,
a can of skoal, someone's underwear, (?) a dead squirrel carcass (from 1934) -
whatever - it MUST be unearthed - regardless of how deep
it's buried. Fourteen foot down you say? No problem.
Now, if I could just get her interested in gold or silver...

Can they climb? (hehehe)... Their behavior is anything but dog-like. So, if
have youngsters and you've ever "child-proofed" your
home -expect to have it that way forever.

At least with kids, they grow up and you can look forward to
getting your house back in order - not so with wolfdogs.
Oh, they may go for days - even weeks - without an incident that would
cause you to mistrust that angelic little face - then all of a sudden, out of
the blue - for no provocation that you can see - they take a shine to your
favorite pair of shoes, or a stray dog strolls across the lawn as they watch
from the window - and marking their territory in the living
room seemed like a good idea at the time...
To put it in a nutshell - they are freaks of humans. I used to say "nature",
but then thought better of it. Nature didn't fashion this animal, man did.
They have just enough dog in them to lack the good sense to be afraid of humans, and just enough wolf to be undomesticatable.

They cannot survive in the wild as a species as they cannot
compete with a true predator for a food source. They can't make it in our society as they have no manners. They can't be fully domesticated to the point of trustworthiness - with any regularity.
They are still "pack" animals and require the companionship and interaction of their own kind (or as close as they can get) to be emotionally stable.

In truth, they belong nowhere. They are outcasts by both species. As beautiful
as Miss Mitake`is, and as deeply as I love her, I know in my heart that she should never have been.

Now, before you judge me on that statement,
let me paint a picture for you - one, I am all too familiar with;
We fully understand the attraction to these creatures. But, all too often after the excitement of owning one begins to ebb, the heavy burden of responsibility sets in. They are demanding. Tiring. Loaded with endless
energy (that pink bunny with the drum isn't even in the same league).

They have their own ideas about things - and aren't likely to adopt yours anytime soon. When they cannot be made to conform, it makes for a hotbed of emotions and a battle of the "wills" begins.
To beat an animal for any infraction, is unforgivable in my eyes. To beat an animal for simply being what they are, is reprehensible. For all the digging, chewing and annoying pranks Mitake` has ever pulled - not once
has she heard a disparaging word from me. She is what she is. I knew that when I rescued her and made her a part of my family. While Marc and I speak the language of "wolf", and we permit her to be what she is to the very best of our ability, she is still living in a world of
humans and she has to adhere to some rules.

Under the best of circumstances, life is difficult for her.

It's not her fault she is what she is.

She didn't ask to be here - she was created by
man for his reasons and she, and others like her
will ultimately pay the price for that whim.
Generally, when it becomes clear that this animal will not be brought to "heel", the abuse starts. Even if the animal isn't beaten physically, condemned to a life of loneliness and deprivation in the back yard chained to a tree, is still abuse. Sometimes they end up in worse situations -
like the poor souls whom we rescued back in 1997 that catapulted us into the rescue arena - and two of them died before we could legally get them out of that place.

There are other considerations; Miss Sadie, a sweet, loving, quiet
animal whom we believe to be a collie/wolf mix was nothing but a breeding machine for 14 years. We're told that she was bred to a male wolf every single time she came into heat. She produced 52 puppies. Can you imagine? This was her life - she has known nothing else.
Sadie was either pregnant or nursing for 14 long years. We hope to offer her a well deserved rest, a lot of love and some time to herself.

For whatever it's worth, I'm asking you to be responsible about this
undertaking. I'm asking you to do the right thing.
If, after everything you've read here (and this ain't the half of it), you
are still compelled to share your life with one, please don't go out and buy one - creating a demand for more.

The breeders will go away when the market goes away.

Education is the only answer.

Find out what the responsibilities are. Find
out what the costs are - these animals will require special
enclosures. A wolf can challenge a 10 foot fence - and win.

Wolfdogs are just as capable.

Discuss your findings with family members - you're asking them to make long-term sacrifices in their lifestyle as well. Some mix well with children and some do not. It is important here to remind you that they are still part wolf. They play by different rules than you do.

The more you learn about those rules, the better off you'll be.Remember, these animals are also individuals - so it would be unfair (and unintelligent) to make a blanket statement that paints them all as unpredictable and totally untrustworthy. Some are more predictable than others - just like people.

When you look into sharing your life with one in earnest, and you decide this is a go - get everything in place, then get on a rescue list.

If the organization or group is a credible one, the animal will be spayed/neutered before placement. It would be far more responsible and compassionate to provide a loving environment for an unwanted animal than to go out and buy one, placing a demand on the market for more. For every responsible person out there who has the
knowledge and commitment to care for a wolfdog properly,
we have as many as 70 or more who do not.

It is a social problem. And it creates a nightmare for the poor animals who fall into inexperienced hands. The only true way to make sure that these animals don't get into trouble, is to stop breeding them - period.

We estimate that there are upwards of 600,000 to 1.5 million captive wolves and wolfdogs, right now, across the United States in trouble.

When there are so many who desperately need a place to go,
it is clearly irresponsible to breed more.
If you have read all of this,
taken it to heart, and still feel compelled
to share your life with a wolfdog,

Please call us.
(281) 821-4884 "

www.nawa.org (http://www.nawa.org)

Posted by Bluewolf due to the nature of the topic.

12-24-2002, 10:52 AM
What is your relationship to the wolf?

12-24-2002, 12:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SlimJim:</font><hr> What is your relationship to the wolf? <hr /></blockquote>

I have to say, tongue and cheek, as little as possible. Any scientists , photographers, etc spending time in the natural habitat of the wolf runs the risk of getting the wolf to bond with them. This not only runs the risk of sending ripples through the pack, it also messes up the natural order, since it is to the benefit of the wolf to fear man.

I have been approached by wolves in the wild. They sense a kindred spirit in me, but for their own protection, I have cut this short. This is different from wolves and wolf dogs in sanctuaries, where there are many people around. Unfortunately, once a wolf comes into a sanctuary, they usually spend the remainder of their days there or in another similar situation. Once a wolf is even partially socialized to people and/or separated from a pack, reintroduction is very difficult. If the wolf is a cub, since adult wolves like puppies, that one has a better chance of being accepted. If an attempt is made to introduce and adult wolf to an existing pack, often the wolf is destroyed by the pack.

I have seen instances where lone wolves, in sanctuary, if they accept each other can become a pack. I had heard of instances where pups were introduced to a mating pair and were accepted.

It is no mistake that the socialization window for dogs is much longer than for wolves. For dogs, it is 16 weeks. This means that all experiences the dog has in that time are things they will tend to be comfortable with ie-children, small dogs, big ones, cats, men,women, short men, men with hats or beards,, people with various voice pitces,traveling to different places where the pup is exposed to noise etc. Socialization after this period is much more difficult and the dog may have emotional baggage which will have to be worked out with a trainer etc.

Wolves have a much shorter socialization window for a reason. Rather than 16 weeks, it is a matter of days. I do not have my sources in front of me, but nine days sticks in my mind. If the pup/cub does not see people in that period of time, then they will always be shy of people, unless taken out of their habitat and then it is still very hard to socialize them.

Man has not discontinued his unbridled campaign to exterminate the wolf. Our govt recently allowed a tagged pack to be hunted down and killed by helicopter. Even though organizations like "Defenders of Wildlife" were fighting against this action, the wolf pack was destroyed, even the pups. I learned of this on a wolf, wolf-dog list i am on, and it almost made me vomit.

So what is my relationship to wolves? I do not have the facilities to take a rescue in at the moment. It is not just a matter of a place, it is a matter of laws which continue in their predjudice against any dog, once the word wolf is mentioned. This is a very complex issue, but the one rescue I had was a sweet boy, yet I had to maintain constant vigilance and restrict where I took him so that he would not fall into the hands of the authorities and be destroyed. I have seen others destroyed even when they did nothing to deserve it.

So even though there exists a bond between myself and the wolf, after sammy died and the constant headache of keeping him out of the wrong hands, I have had siberian huskies and alaskan malamutes, which are near cousins of the wolf.

I help the wolf now indirectly by helping out at wolf sanctuaries, helping financially when i have a little cash to help locally and to organizations like NAWA and sometimes it involves getting on the phone or internet to try to find a place, even temporary for one who is about to be PTS (put to sleep). And I pray everyday that they will survive and not become extinct and I shed tears for each one that is destroyed by our govt or by ranchers shooting them when it was a coyote who killed their livestock.

Sammy came to me because a selfish, greedy person got ahold of a timberwolf and bred with high % female to make money on people who wanted wolf dogs. By the time I got him, he had been owned by two people and had been kept in a kennel set in concrete where he spent his days alone, month after month, year after year. He was not even given canine companionship.

So that is how sammy came to live with me, his owner gave him up , he was at the vets, and had nowhere to go. My part, I studied and tried to learn what his needs were. I just wanted to give him acceptance and love for the remainder of his days, not knowing that those days would be so short.

But it is important to remember, that a wolf can range up to 125 miles a day. No matter how good of a place you have, it is still a prison for an animal meant to be free. And how cruel of a thing for an animal to live his whole life with that desire to be free, which he can never have.

well this is long and there is much more but way too much for here. the best reference really is the NAWA site. I am writing a book about some of this, but it is not nearly finished.


Harold Acosta
12-24-2002, 12:34 PM
I read this post entirely, and I cannot agree with you more. Altough, what I am about to say has nothing to do with wolves, something similar is happening in Puerto Rico with Siberian Huskies, Chow-Chows, etc.

These types of dogs, don't belong in the tropics. The heat is too extensive for these animals and they suffer extensively. Some dumb jack-a$$ in Puerto Rico has decided to bring them in, and the Puerto Rican Government has let it happen. It breaks my heart to see these dogs suffer in our environment. I cannot phantom the idea, that people buy these dogs, and then let them stray because they cannot care for them. People should be jailed or heavily fined for doing this but then we don't have "enforceable" laws in Puerto Rico because the "Government" doesn't care, and people including our "lawmakers" don't know squat about "animal protection or rights."

I can only guess, that this is true in most of the "States", (the ignorance on animal rights), although I have to say that at least in the US, laws are more "enforceable" than in Puerto Rico.

For what it's worth, thanks for posting this information.


12-24-2002, 01:01 PM

Gosh. A sad situation in Puerto Rico. The US is just getting laws such as leash laws but unfortunately, many of the laws do not help the poor dogs.

There are lots of bad things happening to dogs here such as puppy mills and animal experimentation and irresponsible breeding practices. There is this lady who wrote a series of alaskan malamute mysteries, like the ones about cats. Hers are very informative about lots of these issues. I learned a lot from reading about them.

In mal and sibe rescue, gosh for every good owner there are scads of jerks. sibes are brought into shelters most frequently at the age of 9-11 months, when the cute pup with the blue eyes is now a handfull and the owners have not established who is in charge. you would not believe how many die every year. I am on the siberian and malamute email lists and you would not believe the scrambling of rescues and good samaritans to save as many as possible and volunteers getting transports together to take them south to north, east to west and the generous people who donate money to save them. as you well know, it is not enough.

while huskies and malamutes were not meant to be in warmer climates, they appear to be adaptable to changes in temperature, like the wolf. my mal does not do well in heat, though so in summer, he was walked at 6am and 10pm. the rest of the time he was inside in the airconditioning. now that it is getting cooler, he and the sibe love laying outside on our balcony in cold temperature.

the people i know who really love their sibes and mals, if they are keeping them outside in warm climate, they have lots of water, shade and often air conditioned runs. personally i dont feel right keeping a northern dog outside in the summer, but these folks seem to love their dogs.

these are people dogs. after an hour running around, they are ready to come back inside where the people are. i am not attached to my furniture. this house belongs to them, and if they want to play, they play. there are 3 of them and they never get into any mess. they are a little pack and can intertain themselves until their human mommy and daddy get home from work.

they are our kids /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif


04-04-2003, 06:01 PM
My family used to own a Wolf Hound, an Irish Wolf Hound. They are the biggest dogs in the world, a fraction taller than Great Danes on average. I remember seeing one in Manhatten on Saint Patricks when when I was a little kid. I never forgot it as the dog was almost as tall as me and I had never seen one before. There were only several hundred in the whole United States at the time. A few years later we got one of our own. We showed her and she became a champion.

Many people who saw that dog never forgot her either. Thirty years later people I never met before sometimes realized who I was and tell me they saw that dog and they remember her.

04-04-2003, 09:53 PM
I'm not sure what I think of people owning a part wolf.
But I did have a friend who I believe had a 50% Shepherd
and 50% Wolf and it was a loving animal (pet) and BIG, and beautiful, BUT I'm not sure I would trust it 24/7


04-05-2003, 09:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote preacherman:</font><hr> I'm not sure what I think of people owning a part wolf.
But I did have a friend who I believe had a 50% Shepherd
and 50% Wolf and it was a loving animal (pet) and BIG, and beautiful, BUT I'm not sure I would trust it 24/7

Jim <hr /></blockquote>

Well a wolf dog is a lot of work and it is different living with one. Sammy was given to me. There are lots around needing refuge. It is the breeding of wolfdogs I have a problem with. For more information, see the following site.

www.nawa.org (http://www.nawa.org)