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View Full Version : I need a new tip.



12-24-2002, 10:22 AM
Very soon I will need to replace the tip on my Q. This will be my first time replacing a tip and I'm not sure of a quality brand. I've been told Moori and Hercules are good tips but I've also read some good things about Talisman tips. If anyone out there has experience with these or any other tips, I'd like to hear your thoughts on what you liked or didn't like about the tip.[pollstart]
[polltitle=I need a new tip.]

12-24-2002, 03:13 PM
I have two shafts for the same cue. At the moment I'm comparing the Talisman medium pro to the Moori medium. I had them put on a little over a week ago and have shot with them at least every other day. The Moori is a little harder than the Talisman and I can get a little more action on the cue ball but I have also miscued with the Moori 4 times compared to no miscues with the Talisman.

John G
12-24-2002, 03:21 PM
I don't think much of the current production of Moori's. The old one were good. Hercules is a good tip, plays well
with good feel but they have been having seperation problems with some tips. Talisman is a good tip plays well
with good feel but are 25% to 30% (approximatly) harder then comparable grades. Everest from Tiger products is an excellent hitting tip, soft feel, but it mushrooms and mushrooms. Sniper from Tiger is a good tip, wont mushroom but is a tad hard for my taste, otherwise a good tip. All of these tips need to be lightly scuffed from time to time otherwise hold chalk well but you must chalk often. A good all around single layer tip is a med Triangle, just make sure it's not spongey when you put it on ( about 20% from a box have been soft latley) otherwise good feel, good control, holds chalk well and does not glaze as easily as some of the other tips. Well that's my opinion from experience with all of these. The're all good tips it just depends on what you're looking for from a tip, your level of play, control potential, what game you play most ie one pocket, nine ball, bar table with the big nut and most of all what feel you want. Cost should be the last consideration. My suggestion would be to try a number of your friends cues and see what feels best to you. Hope this helps and didn't add confusion. good luck, John G

12-24-2002, 03:38 PM
Just to add to my personal criteria so that I can receive accurate feedback:

I play in an APA 8-ball league twice a week. I am currently ranked a 4 but have been a 5 four times this passed year. My cue is a 18.5 Oz McDermott with a 13mm tip. I prefer to shoot using a soft stroke so I guess I'm looking for a tip that will yield more english than my current tip(stock tip) without me increasing my cue velocity.
Captain

Troy
12-25-2002, 11:05 AM
I can recommend Talisman Pro tips. I've been using a Soft for 1-Pocket for well over a year with no need to scuff. Holds chalk well, no mushroom. For 9-Ball/8-Ball, I use a Medium. Again, holds chalk well, no mushroom.

Most of my customers prefer the Talisman Pro Medium. I stock Soft, Medium & Hard. If you'd like to try one, e-mail me.

Troy

Sid_Vicious
12-25-2002, 11:24 AM
That cue came with a LaPro when new, and for a pretty good reason. McDermott cues play very well with LaPro tips. The consistency of the LaPro tips out of the box used to be bad so I moved my McDermott cues to single layered water buffalo tips. The WB tips stay shaped extremely well, and play super! I can't find a good reason to pay more for a layered tip after discovering the WB single layered tips. I will condone the Talisman tips, if a layered tip in your intention. I wouldn't go softer than a medium myself in that line, it more closely matches up with the LaPro's hardness(imo), they hold chalk very well. Good luck, hope you go with the WB. They are fine tips and cost far less than a layered tip...sid

Scott Lee
12-25-2002, 12:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote John G:</font><hr> All of these tips need to be lightly scuffed from time to time otherwise hold chalk well but you must chalk often. <hr /></blockquote>

IMO, the brand of tip is of less consequence (although for layered tips, I think Talisman is the best buy for the money, and I play with them all the time), than the idea of chalking before every shot...and LOOK at the tip as you chalk it. Chalk is MOST necessary when you are striking the CB off center...draw, follow, or english...and it needs to be carefully applied to the EDGE of the tip, which is where the contact point with the CB will be!
I don't believe you have to scuff ANY tip (I won't say NEVER, but I will say RARELY)...a light coating of chalk, and a smooth stroke are all that is required.

Scott Lee

Scott Lee
12-25-2002, 12:35 PM
John...Again, it is a FALLACY that one brand of tip produces more action than another! It is ONLY the stroke that produces the spin effect. The kind of tip matters very little, once you have refined the stroke!

Scott Lee

Sid_Vicious
12-25-2002, 12:52 PM
"I don't believe you have to scuff ANY tip (I won't say NEVER, but I will say RARELY)"

AMEN Scott! I WILL say the word though, NEVER have to scuff a tip after initial shaping. The only tip I scuffed was the phenolic on a jump cue and I finally cut that dude off and the new tip requires the same scuffing, pikking and reshaping as all my other tips, none...sid~~~plays with H &amp; XH tips with seldom mis-qz,,,fix the stroke and use chalk, don't blame that tip, all it is saying is, "Stroke me fundamentally better" that's all

silverbullet
12-25-2002, 01:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> John...Again, it is a FALLACY that one brand of tip produces more action than another! It is ONLY the stroke that produces the spin effect. The kind of tip matters very little, once you have refined the stroke!

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

i think that scott can play with anything and so could i if my stroke was as perfect as his. mine isnt. i do not think all tips are good but i believe many of them are.

i have used talisman pro soft for most of my previous cues. my husband had moori medium...the talisman soft appeared to be like the moori medium for less price. the moori cost 20 dollars. both held the chalk well, gripped the ball well or seemed to and hardly miscued unless the stupid player forgot to chalk up.

blackheart sent me a cue with a sumo wb. it is a fine tip too and i think it hits great.

otoh, what ever came with the pred sneaky pete, we hated and replaced it. whatever came on the pred bk, though seems okay, but then it is a hard tip. so not sure, i still think the bk shoots better than the sneaky pete but maybe that is all in my head too. the blackheart cue i like better as it is weighted perfect for me. that is a personal pref thing tho i think.

bw

John G
12-25-2002, 02:47 PM
Scott, while it's certainly true that stroke is what spins the ball, it's also true that the type and hardness of a tip are a contributing factor as well as the ferrule material, ferrule capped or uncapped, and wall thickness. As far as Talisman I didn't say any thing negative about them. I use them, I like the tip. I was simply trying to offer an overview of some of whats available. You teach, I wouldn't question your credentials. I engineer and build cues. I've been building, testing, and engineering things for 40 plus years. Though I didn't publicize, and I'm not bragging I was one of the first to test for and measure harmonics and resonance in cue sticks. I experiment with many combinations for the best results. I continue to search for ways to improve the quality and playing characteristics of the cue stick and fortunate for me I don't have to do it for the money, I do it because I love cue sports and I choose to return something to something that has given me so much. For you to flatly state that a tip wouldn't or couldn't alter the application of spin to a cue ball is arrogant and shows a lack of knowledge on your part. You may be a good player, you may be a great player. You may be a wonderful teacher. I don't know, I do , however, know what I know. as to scuffing I rarely scuff a tip but I chalk properly and I keep my tip shaped properly. Unfortunately for a great many amateurs this isn't true and because of improper tip use/care their tips glaze and on occasion they need to be dressed, not ground on , simply dressed. I don't know what I said that seems to have offended you. I was trying to offer information in general terms to someone I don't have a clue as to how well or how often he plays. I don't know if he evan has a stroke. I'll finish with this.I play and before my accident 12 years ago I hit em pretty fair and though my body won't hold up to the rigors of nine ball any more perhaps you and I will run into each other and we can play some one hole. You take care now, John G

Sid_Vicious
12-25-2002, 03:49 PM
John...I'm sure I added to this, and I didn't intend to make less of anyone's expertise. Thing that I think Scott is saying(at the risk of answering for him) is that a proficient stoker can play with a low end Mali or with a top end Schon because he/she produces the mechanics. I, myself have collected a vast array of hardware over the recent years looking for that advantage, be it a perfect tip or a cue that gives me nothing but addition beyond every other cue I've tried. I'm not disagreeing that you know what you are talking about, just that the general fundamentals of the game really dictate the ability of action coming off of the tip(up to a limit.) Beyond that ability is where I think you are influencing the performance with the science of building a cue. I sincerely doubt that Scott was making any cuts at your approach to the subject. As far as the scuffing issue...knowing that I am in the definite minority, I'll stand on my ground with my previous opinion. A shiny tip doesn't tell me it needs attention with piks and the such, just that it has worked into a structure due to my stroking style. Again, I truly don't feel you were being belittled. It's just not a real good forum here on an internet discussion board to bounce contradictory messages, it sometimes comes across wrong...sid~~~hopes you find this friendly

John G
12-25-2002, 04:19 PM
Sid, thanks for the reply. You're absolutly correct that the mechanics of the stroke are the most essential element to the equation. I used to play guys with a broom stick and rob them but many people don't have a stroke much less a powerful stroke. So for these we produce variety. ie hardness, texture, material. And when you take someone that has no stroke or a weak stroke a tip can change things. I know your is a friendly reply. The reason I cautioned about chalking is twofold, (1) most people don't how to chalk and, (2) many amatuer players are to far off center on the cue ball in their attempt to apply english and that increases the odds of a miscue. Because of the nature of the question I assumed I was directing my reply to a fairly new player. Perhaps I should have followed the old rule that to assume makes an ass of u and me. Thanks again, have a great day. John G

12-25-2002, 05:07 PM
Hey, just wanted to say thanks to you all for all of the wanderful info in your posts. I didn't think that my question would spawn such a debate but I love it.

Thanks again and happy hollidays,
M.D.

Kato
12-25-2002, 10:59 PM
Recently WesK sent me a bunch of Tailsman's and I went into it with some trepidation. I had a Pro Medium installed with a fibre pad (never had one of those). The first couple of weeks I pretty much dispised the thing and was about to change it. After putting in the hours lately I've come to really appreciate the feel and consistency I get from this combination. I never scuff or shape the tip though I really like the gizmo Rackemup sent me I just haven't had to use it.

1 vote for Tailsman Pro Medium.

Kato

Scott Lee
12-26-2002, 12:31 AM
John...sid was correct, in that not only was I NOT offended by your post, but I did not intend to put down anything you were saying. I do, however, stand by my position, that a tip will not make or break a player of ANY ability, without the proper fundamental mechanics necessary for a decent stroke! I agree wholeheartedly that few people know how to chalk correctly (one of the reasons why I posted here, on the correct way to chalk).
Although I make no claims as an engineer, much less a cuemaker, I am familiar with almost every aspect of cue production. There are as many ways to make a cue, as there are to play with one...and it is more a case of 'what feels good in your hands' for most of us. Until you have some semblance of a stroke, it is, imo, nearly impossible to REALLY tell a difference between cues, much less tips. I apologize if you felt that I was slighting you...I meant no disrespect. However, there are so many misinformed poolplayers who mistakenly, again imo, believe that a certain tip will make them better able to execute a certain shot, or stroke the CB better...which is JUST NOT THE CASE! An improvement in their technique is ALL that is required.
Both you and sid said it best...once you really learn what a stroke is, you can play with anything...from a broomstick to a $10,000 custom cue...or anything in between.

Scott Lee

John G
12-26-2002, 02:02 AM
Scott, I agree with virtually everything you just said . No tip, no cue or any table is going to make or break a player. A player could play in a parking lot with a broomstick. I also agree that a great many people
don't know a good cue from a bad one. And there are many ways of building a cue and evan more opinions. I guess we're both saying the same thing. I was trying to answer the question without telling the guy 'if you don't have a stroke it really doesn't matter'. Where I would take exception with tip choice is when there is no stroke, a tips
hardness and shape can make a difference in the way that person gets the cue ball to react and although the difference is small it can be the difference between fun and no fun. And thats all a lot of these guys are after, fun and bragging rights. I've read many good things about you and I've no reason to dispute that. I just felt like I
was being attacked. Without explanation sometimes my other problem makes me a little sensitive. No hard feelings I hope. But If you ever want to discuss cue construction I believe I could make my point and you would find it interesting. Perhaps we'll run into eachother in Vegas sometime. If so I'll buy you a drink You take care now. John G

,

Wally_in_Cincy
12-26-2002, 08:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote captain:</font><hr> Very soon I will need to replace the tip on my Q. This will be my first time replacing a tip.....
<hr /></blockquote>

First question: You are not intending to do this yourself are you? If so, don't even think about it. Have an experienced tip guy do it, not some schlep from your league, unless you know of a good tip guy in your league. I suggest checking out a local pool hall. Any good pool hall has a tip guy they trust.

Anyway I play at your level so I feel qualified to addresss your question. Don't start experimenting right now with layered tips and what-not on your main playing cue. It will make your cue play a lot different. According to McDermott's website their cues come with Triangle tips. Stick with a Triangle for now. Or a LePro will play about the same as a Triangle IMO.

12-26-2002, 05:47 PM
The general concensus that I am interperating from this thread is that the brand/style of tip is not going to help me as much as improving my stroke. That is as long as the tip is properly chalked, shaped, and feels good to me.With that said, I'm open to suggestions regarding any publications and/or videos that will afford me the knowledge to improve my stroke, and take my game to the next level. TIA
Cap

Scott Lee
12-27-2002, 01:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote John G:</font><hr> Where I would take exception with tip choice is when there is no stroke, a tips
hardness and shape can make a difference in the way that person gets the cue ball to react and although the difference is small it can be the difference between fun and no fun.

If you ever want to discuss cue construction I believe I could make my point and you would find it interesting.

John G <hr /></blockquote>

John...I don't see how, because someone who pokes at the CB can still be accurate enough to pocket balls (which is what makes pool fun). They just generally won't have the same consistency in moving the CB...and certainly less efficiently. However, I am openminded enough to listen to your ideas, and I hope we do meet up some time!

Scott Lee

Scott Lee
12-27-2002, 01:22 AM
captain...Your best investment, imo, would be to take a stroke lesson from a qualified instructor. Books and videos are great, but they cannot tell you that you are jumping up, short stroking, hurrying your backswing, or a host of other flaws in the stroke. The best way to see this is to videotape yourself. Of course you have know what a good stroke looks like, to know how to compare your own! This is where the instructor comes into play.
That person should be able to demonstrate how the stroke SHOULD be, and then take you through the steps necessary for you to improve your own.

Scott Lee

silverbullet
12-27-2002, 06:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote John G:</font><hr> Where I would take exception with tip choice is when there is no stroke, a tips
hardness and shape can make a difference in the way that person gets the cue ball to react and although the difference is small it can be the difference between fun and no fun.

If you ever want to discuss cue construction I believe I could make my point and you would find it interesting.

John G <hr /></blockquote>

John...I don't see how, because someone who pokes at the CB can still be accurate enough to pocket balls (which is what makes pool fun). They just generally won't have the same consistency in moving the CB...and certainly less efficiently. However, I am openminded enough to listen to your ideas, and I hope we do meet up some time!

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

Maybe this is my head again scott. When I first got the pred bk, i barely stroked the ball, i mean less than lag speed probablu one rail speed and the balls flew like i hit them at stroke speed and i cant even hit that hard. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

the other cues with med to soft tips go in accordance to how hard i hit them.

so is this my head? the pred bk doesnt do this now i have adjusted but this is what happened when i first hit with it. never played with a hard tip so wasnt expecting this.

Laura

Sid_Vicious
12-27-2002, 08:13 AM
It may get boring, but if you have a table at home and a camcorder you can work Kinnister's primary shot relentlessly. Have the camera on a tripod directly behind the corner pocket just at table level pointing straight in your face. That one shot, done correctly will reward you with a stroke, and the camera will point out your mistakes(head movement, backhand swingout, wrist-twist, etc) ALONG with the replays of when you did it perfect. I've consumed weekends with this workout....sid

Fred Agnir
12-27-2002, 08:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote John G:</font><hr> Scott, while it's certainly true that stroke is what spins the ball, it's also true that the type and hardness of a tip are a contributing factor as well as the ferrule material, ferrule capped or uncapped, and wall thickness. <hr /></blockquote>
There are two parameters when people talk about "amount of spin." One would be the quality of spin, usually represented as the spin/speed ratio. That is, how much spin for a given speed. At most of the normal speeds, I believe the Jacksonville Experiments(which if you're an experimenter, you should have in your library) shows that the spin/speed ratio is governed by tip offset (eccentricity of the contact point) with no observable (with 12,000 frames/sec) differences due to tip hardness or type.

The other parameter is energy transfer efficiency, or the coefficient of restitution. You've already done experiments that address this. Tip hardness should play a part, but how much is the question. I personally feel that one can optimize this value for a player's feel, but how you go about quantifying it is unclear to me. If you haven't already, you need to be part of rec.sport.billiard and hash out any potential findings with Bob Jewett, Tony Matthews and Steve Hegg, who all have addressed this. One of the three, IMO, is a whacko.

Fred &lt;~~~ thinks a consistent tip is more important than it's particular hardness

Fred Agnir
12-27-2002, 08:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote silverbullet:</font><hr> Maybe this is my head again scott. When I first got the pred bk, i barely stroked the ball, i mean less than lag speed probablu one rail speed and the balls flew like i hit them at stroke speed and i cant even hit that hard. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif <hr /></blockquote>
This isn't in your head. The Pred. BK has been designed to maximize the speed of the cueball vs. the speed of the cuestick.

Fred