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Tom_In_Cincy
12-25-2002, 03:13 PM
When needing to apply english on a cue ball, what is the most important characteristic needed to be successful..


Please RATE what you think is the most "important"

Type of tip (hard, medium, soft, layered)
Material of the ferrule (ivory, synthetic, plastic)
Length of ferrule (, , inch or 1)
Shape of tip (dime, nickle.. other)
(just for Rod) A smoothe straight "STROKE"

Rod
12-25-2002, 03:19 PM
oh geez let me see all these choices. Oh what to choose, I haven't opened any christmas presents yet! Oh that wasn't an option. Ok I'm gonna choose a smooth straight stroke, well that wasn't an option either ok, stroke /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

John G
12-25-2002, 04:22 PM
You get the brass ring. lol /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Ralph S.
12-25-2002, 06:42 PM
A good solid stroke has to be there and I prefer my tip to be medium-hard and dime shaped.
Ralph S.

12-25-2002, 06:44 PM
Stroke. Unless you run into one of those bartable cue balls that ways about ten pounds. I have trouble putting english on those balls with a sharpie!

Alfie
12-25-2002, 09:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> When needing to apply english on a cue ball, what is the most important characteristic needed to be successful.. <hr /></blockquote> The tip should not be flat.
The tip should be chalked.
Hit the CB between the center and 9/16" from the center, not inclusive.
Follow through.

All of these are important.

Kato
12-25-2002, 11:01 PM
Smooth stroke and follow through. Key to pool

Kato

TonyM
12-26-2002, 12:18 AM
As far as I'm concerned, the type of ferrule material, and the length of the ferrule has absolutely nothing to do with putting english on the ball!

I have a few cues with no ferrule whatsoever, (one is a very old Italian Carom cue) and I can apply as much spin as with any cue made.

The tip really limits the amount of side spin that you can use. Specifically, the ability of the tip to hold chalk (not it's hardness).

The shape of the tip sets the relationship between the shaft offset and spin ratio. But as long as you have a decent amount of curvature on the tip (not too much, not too little) then the shape shouldn't limit the actual amount of spin achievable.

As for the stroke, this helps you to hit the spot on the ball intended, at the speed you want.

So to sum up, the tip limits how much spin you can expect to achieve, and the stroke is what helps you achieve it consistently.

Tony

Scott Lee
12-26-2002, 12:19 AM
Tom...Wahoo! ...almost unanimous! A smooth stroke is the KEY! By golly, it makes me happy to see intelligent answers, moving away from the 'equipment', and keeping the importance where it belongs!

Scott

Dafatman
12-26-2002, 12:45 AM
Well I probably won't win any popularity contests in this group but here goes.


1 Shape of tip (dime, nickle.. other) Most tips become firm or hard after playing a while, give me one shaped like a dime and I'll try playing with it. (By the way you should hear Earl's take on tips nowdays....)

2 Type of tip (hard, medium, soft, layered)I prefer a layered tip (currently Hercules) and MH to H becaues like I said most tips become harder just through play.

3 (just for Rod) A smoothe straight "STROKE". Mostly because it is what should be taught and can be taught. But have any of you heard of David Favor? He has one of the hokiest pokiest strokes you will ever see but I would rate him very highly on cueball control.

4. Material of the ferrule (ivory, synthetic, plastic)I don't like the soft plastics like the old Meucci. Prefer Ivorine or good fibre ferrules.

5 Length of ferrule (, , inch or 1)Agree with Tony, don't think it matters.

Rod
12-26-2002, 01:14 AM
Aw gee thanks Tom for changing that. Well I know it's not just for me since Randy G and Scott l as well as a host of other instructors and pro players would agree. With strokes there is more than one way to get the job done though. No matter if it gets back to the original aim point on the c/b it's probably going to be effective. Which is stroke. As Tony pointed out the equipment doesn't have to be perfect or special just within reason.

Wally_in_Cincy
12-26-2002, 07:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Dafatman:</font><hr>
....(By the way you should hear Earl's take on tips nowdays....)<hr /></blockquote>

Well.....?

silverbullet
12-26-2002, 08:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Tom...Wahoo! ...almost unanimous! A smooth stroke is the KEY! By golly, it makes me happy to see intelligent answers, moving away from the 'equipment', and keeping the importance where it belongs!

Scott <hr /></blockquote>

Scott,

After, numerous hours of instruction from you first, then randy g at poolschool on the stroke, I felt that I had a decent stroke. I thought that if a person had a good stroke that it did not matter what cue they shot with, they should be able to shoot with anything.

Our sceptres were top weighted. When the shafts came up warped and the company seems to have vanished, we realized I was going to have to have new cues. WW bought me the pred sneaky pete (back weighted) and put a new tip on it. I bought a blackheart and jer put a nice tip on it. The blackheart seems more even weighted.

When it was apparent that I shot better with the blackheart, not taking anything away from the excellence of jer's cues, I started doubting my stroke. I started thinking it wasnt as good as I thought and analyzed it to death.

I finally just said f it and shoot with the blackheart.

So the real question is, if I shoot better with the blackheart than the pred, is there something wrong with my stroke?

bw

Eric.
12-26-2002, 09:26 AM
Hey Tom,

For me, it depends on "normal" English or extreme english. Anyway:
1.Smooth stroke
2.Shape/condition of tip
3.Type of tip
4.Material of ferrule
5.Length

Eric

Scott Lee
12-26-2002, 10:52 AM
Laura....No, there is most likely little, if anything wrong with your stroke (overall). Here's my take on it. The mind is incredibly powerful. If someone believes, REALLY BELIEVES, that some kind of cue, or tip, will make them play better...it PROBABLY will! LOL But, imo, nothing improves a person more than quality instruction. In your case, QUIT WORRYING about which cue to use, and just PLAY! LOL You seem to be falling into the trap of over-analyzation! Here's a short anecdote...

10 yrs ago, as an APA L.O., I had a player in Blackfoot , ID, who came to league every week with 15 different cues (his "cue case" was a 12 inch PVC pipe, 30+ inches long, with end caps...this weighed nearly 25 lbs when loaded with cues). He would proceed to take out one, screw it together, and play with it until he missed (which usually wasn't long). When he missed, he would unscrew that cue, put it back in the "case", take another out, and shoot with it until he missed. He would generally go through ALL the cues in the pipe during his ONE match! LOL Everyone (me included) thought he was nuts!

Bottom line: It is NOT the cue, but how you USE it, that makes the player. As long as you know how to swing the cue through the CB, and you know how to aim (these things should basically be rote, after instruction from Randy and me), quit worrying about missing. EVERYONE misses...just let go of it, and look at your next shot as a new opportunity to succeed!

Scott

Kato
12-26-2002, 10:59 AM
So you're saying it's the Indian and not the arrow.

Kato~~~has mostly broken arrows.

silverbullet
12-26-2002, 12:54 PM
Scott,

Thanks a lot for the tips and encouragement. I have been trying this Q skills thing and my break holds me back from getting a good score. While the balls mostly separate, the spread isnt good and am having to work hard to put any run of balls together and 90% the ones that do go down are combos,caroms and long shots.

btw, after posting the above, i shot a little and i think that while i prefer the blackheart and really appreciate the heart he puts into his craft, that is a biggie for me in wanting to use his que. it is also good quality and well made. otoh, after doing this qskills and scratching on the break, i gave up and just started shooting balls.

i had forgotten to put back the pred bk, which doesnt even have a good tip and was potting balls like crazy. after putting down several in a row, i realized what cue i had in my hands and went over and got the blackheart. i potted some with it too, . all of my sticks are 19 ounces. the predators, the blackheart and the sceptre. but it is the blackheart that feels like art when i pick it up. it is in my head i guess. it is hard to xplain. it is like, now i know it was in my head, the others are sticks, they perform the function they are supposed to. they pot balls. but the blackheart in my hand is art in motion. it is almost a spiritual thing and that is why i ordered a custom one from him.

Anyway, cant wait to see you again and get some more of that quallity instruction /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

bw

fasteddie
12-26-2002, 07:32 PM
Tom all you need to worry about is chalking you cue.After that (assuming your stroke is true)trust your own cue.Think from experiance practice makes perfect. You know you have cracked it when you dont have to think about it.How hard and how much english all the rest are not variables.My cue is 16years old now and i wouldnt change it for anything.Equipment is secondary to experiance

Sid_Vicious
12-26-2002, 08:55 PM
I understand your emotions and skill improvement with a well crafted cue. That's why I own to many cues...they seem to do most of the job for me in my early days 'getting acquainted' with them, but I'll eventually buy others. It's an addiction...sid~~~gonna joins SticksAnon someday

Mike H
12-26-2002, 08:59 PM
The stroke, without question. The rest are secondary by comparison.

fasteddie
12-26-2002, 09:28 PM
Your right sid it is an addiction,maybe some day we,ll all end up in sticksanon.The best thing i find about it is being in the zone as they say.Ever wondered sometimes that when you play your absolute best you just don,t think about shots they just happen.Thats what makes it an addiction for me.

TonyM
12-27-2002, 12:23 AM
"So the real question is, if I shoot better with the blackheart than the pred, is there something wrong with my stroke?"

Well, if you still suffer from your back hand tremor, then the predator might be a bad choice for you. (I mentioned this once before). Several players that I have known that have a prenounced hand tremor play much better with a cue with a bit of squirt. That is, with a pivot point that is close to their normal bridge length. I suspect that the Blackheart cue has a much shorter pivot point that the pred.

As a result, if you have aligned the shot fairly accurately to begin with, then any arm tremors will be compensated for by the squirt in the Blackheart. It is just like using unitentional back hand english.

That's just one possibility.

Of course, maybe it's just like Scott said, if you believe that you play better, then you probably will!

Tony
-keep shooting!.............

silverbullet
12-27-2002, 05:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> I understand your emotions and skill improvement with a well crafted cue. That's why I own to many cues...they seem to do most of the job for me in my early days 'getting acquainted' with them, but I'll eventually buy others. It's an addiction...sid~~~gonna joins SticksAnon someday <hr /></blockquote>

we are not alone sid. i believe it was a friendly new yorker who said 'you cant own too many cues' /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

bw

silverbullet
12-27-2002, 05:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Kato:</font><hr> So you're saying it's the Indian and not the arrow.

Kato~~~has mostly broken arrows. <hr /></blockquote>

Its not the wand, it is the magician or as an old friend used to say:

its not the boat, its the motion on the ocean..ohh forget that one, think she was talkin something xxx...but the magician definately.

bw

silverbullet
12-27-2002, 05:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TonyM:</font><hr> "So the real question is, if I shoot better with the blackheart than the pred, is there something wrong with my stroke?"

Well, if you still suffer from your back hand tremor, then the predator might be a bad choice for you. (I mentioned this once before). Several players that I have known that have a prenounced hand tremor play much better with a cue with a bit of squirt. That is, with a pivot point that is close to their normal bridge length. I suspect that the Blackheart cue has a much shorter pivot point that the pred.

As a result, if you have aligned the shot fairly accurately to begin with, then any arm tremors will be compensated for by the squirt in the Blackheart. It is just like using unitentional back hand english.

That's just one possibility.

Of course, maybe it's just like Scott said, if you believe that you play better, then you probably will!

Tony
-keep shooting!.............
<hr /></blockquote>

thanks now what do you mean distance from balance. do you mean distance from back to balance/grip should be same as distance from front to bridge?

bw

Fred Agnir
12-27-2002, 08:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> When needing to apply english on a cue ball, what is the most important characteristic needed to be successful..
<hr /></blockquote>
Tip offset
Speed at contact
Repeatability

All three rate as #1 importance.

Fred

Stretch
12-27-2002, 10:14 AM
Interesting concept (about the magician and the wand). Makes me wonder if hairs arn't being split when looking for factors best empolyed to produce english.

Given that every shot (including ones with english) first have to originiate from the deepest part of you. I have to speculate that any and all "equipment" like the wand, only responds to the owner. The cue ball hits the object ball, the tip hits the cue ball, the hand guides the cue, the mind see's the shot. So my answer is, "it's the equipment between your ears that makes the most difference to the amount of spin you produce. Everything after that is debateable. St ~~An amateur is still an amateur with a 2000 dollar cue, but a pro is a pro with a 50 dollar cue.~~

cheesemouse
12-27-2002, 10:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> Interesting concept (about the magician and the wand). Makes me wonder if hairs arn't being split when looking for factors best empolyed to produce english.

Given that every shot (including ones with english) first have to originiate from the deepest part of you. I have to speculate that any and all "equipment" like the wand, only responds to the owner. The cue ball hits the object ball, the tip hits the cue ball, the hand guides the cue, the mind see's the shot. So my answer is, "it's the equipment between your ears that makes the most difference to the amount of spin you produce. Everything after that is debateable. St ~~An amateur is still an amateur with a 2000 dollar cue, but a pro is a pro with a 50 dollar cue.~~ <hr /></blockquote>

Stretch,
I'm glad you posted this. It's what I first thought but could'nt figure out how to say it without sounding banal. Thanks for say it well.

silverbullet
12-27-2002, 01:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> Interesting concept (about the magician and the wand). Makes me wonder if hairs arn't being split when looking for factors best empolyed to produce english.

Given that every shot (including ones with english) first have to originiate from the deepest part of you. I have to speculate that any and all "equipment" like the wand, only responds to the owner. The cue ball hits the object ball, the tip hits the cue ball, the hand guides the cue, the mind see's the shot. So my answer is, "it's the equipment between your ears that makes the most difference to the amount of spin you produce. Everything after that is debateable. St ~~An amateur is still an amateur with a 2000 dollar cue, but a pro is a pro with a 50 dollar cue.~~ <hr /></blockquote>

you are so right stretch. it is funny how you learn from different things. i noticed this in regards to driving in the snow. the people who could drive well in the snow tended to not end up in ditches, regardless of what they are driving. those who cannot drive in the snow i frequently see in ditches in their 4x4.

As far as cues go, this is my bias, okay and am sorry if am stepping on anyone's toes. I sort of think it looks dumb to have a real flashy cue if your game doesnt match the cue. As a beginner, I have used basic looking cues, even my blackheart is. Now the custom one I ordered, which will take a year to get...well it will be flashier and am just hoping to be enough better in a year to do the blackheart justice.

bw