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View Full Version : Dropping the elbow on the break



silverbullet
12-26-2002, 09:28 AM
I try very hard not to do this. Having learned to break at medium speed and shift my weight a bit at the hit, it seems much better than my break was before. Also , I am thinking that as I get better, I will get better timing and a faster stroke without compromising accuracy.

The other day, I broke with my bk and it was a 'sledge hammer' break. I looked and noticed how much my elbow had dropped and was very disappointed in myself. This certain person who was watchin me break and is a much higher sl said, when I commented on this, 'well at least it was a good break', but I was not happy.

I do not usually drop my elbow. I have been playing around some with my stance height and I think this is why that happened.

Kind of wanted to hear from you guys, although I know similar topics have come up before.

disclaimer- I am such a perfectionist, I constantly torture myself trying to achieve perfect fundamentals. I am so obsessed that this is way more important to me than my sl or winning or losing. It is the quest for perfect stroke, perfect bridge length and bridge, grip, ball address, follow, freeze and personal eye pattern. If I have left any other fundamentals out then I am sure I obsess about those too.

bw

12-26-2002, 06:16 PM
All right I admit it. I torture myself with details of perfection also. Constantly tweeking my stroke to the point that there's been times that I've regressed instead of progressed. So much so that I've actually taken weeks off just to regain my basic stroke. To combat this I've tried very hard to adopt a new philosiphy. That is when I make a good break, draw, cut, etc... I try to concentrate on what I did RIGHT on that shot and try to repeat it. Don't get me wrong, a "Perfect" stroke is invaluable and desired by all players. I'll probably be trying for the rest of my life. But I feel that perfecting a "Repeatable" stroke is also very important. Unless a player's stroke sucks.

As for your original question(elbow dropping), I don't really pay much attention to my elbow position. So thanks alot! Now I've got one more thing to obsess over.

Fred Agnir
12-27-2002, 09:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote silverbullet:</font><hr> The other day, I broke with my bk and it was a 'sledge hammer' break. I looked and noticed how much my elbow had dropped and was very disappointed in myself. <hr /></blockquote>
I know that the elbow-drop is a big no-no when consistency is being sought, but the reality is that in order to maximize the force into the shot, the elbow has to drop. You can't get your body (read: center of mass) working with your arm if the elbow stays high.

That being said, you can still get a hard enough break without dropping the elbow. Use a set-pause-finish stroke (or at least a set-finish), if that's what you want (no elbow drop), but dropping the elbow on the break isn't the end of the world.

Fred

TomBrooklyn
12-27-2002, 09:39 AM
I've noticed some (many, most, virtually all?) pros stand up and lunge forward on their break. Watching them on tape in slow motion I noticed some picking up their head before or about the time they start their final stroke. I wasn't watching their elbows but picking up one's head and lunging is not standard proceedure for a regular shot either! /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

=TB

Fred Agnir
12-27-2002, 09:53 AM
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Santos+Archer+author:fred&amp;hl=en&amp;lr=&amp;ie=UT F-8&amp;oe=UTF-8&amp;selm=5447edcf.0203140631.4f0e575d%40posting.goog le.com&amp;rnum=1

Fred

Kato
12-27-2002, 10:04 AM
Laura, as a guy who has been tweaking with stroke, stances, break positions, going back to the basics, ect for the better part of 8 years let me give you one single piece of advice. Enjoy the game. While your quest for perfection is admirable it's going to drive you crazy after a while.

Kato~~~http://jeeptalk.org/crack/smilies/cwm/cwm/angryfire.gifme after all my screw ups.

12-27-2002, 10:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Kato:</font><hr> Laura, it's going to drive you crazy after a while.<hr /></blockquote>going to?

Kato
12-27-2002, 10:38 AM
Well, I'm a little messed up to begin with, then I met Voodoo and completely lost it.

Kato~~~http://smilies.networkessence.net/s/contrib/dvv/cwmstone2.gif

Scott Lee
12-27-2002, 11:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>
I know that the elbow-drop is a big no-no when consistency is being sought, but the reality is that in order to maximize the force into the shot, the elbow has to drop. You can't get your body (read: center of mass) working with your arm if the elbow stays high.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Fred...I love ya, but this is only YOUR reality. I can show you myself how I can a) get just as 'hard' of a break using NO elbow drop...but using the weight of the cue and perfect timing; and b) how much better control you get, imo, when you utilize the cuestick, and NOT your back, shoulder, and arm muscles. I know EVERYBODY seems to do it that way, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is "reality"! LOL 500 years ago, the "reality" was that the earth was flat! ONE guy thought it wasn't, and went about proving it to the rest of the world. Just another case of different strokes for different folks.

Scott

TomBrooklyn
12-27-2002, 12:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>Re: the elbow-drop
I know EVERYBODY seems to do it that way, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is "reality"! 500 years ago, the "reality" was that the earth was flat! ONE guy thought it wasn't, and went about proving it to the rest of the world. <hr /></blockquote>Scott, are you equating yourself with Nicholas Capernicus, Galileo, Sir Issac Newton and Christopher Columbus?

Scott Lee
12-27-2002, 08:46 PM
Tom...LOLOL! Nah...not really! Whatever works to get the message across!

Scott

Fred Agnir
12-28-2002, 07:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Fred...I love ya, but this is only YOUR reality. I can show you myself how I can a) get just as 'hard' of a break using NO elbow drop...but using the weight of the cue and perfect timing; and b) how much better control you get, imo, when you utilize the cuestick, and NOT your back, shoulder, and arm muscles. <hr /></blockquote>
I'm pretty sure my post agrees with this. I specifically said that you can get a hard enough break without dropping the elbow. I say "hard enough." You say, "as hard." It's semantics. I certainly didn't say it was necessary to drop your elbow to break the ball hard.

Whether or not you believe one can hit the cueball as fast without an elbow drop compared to with an elbow drop is something that can be proven with a radar gun. However, I think it's more important that a person adopts a technique and hones it. If Bluewolf drops her elbow and gets the best break of her life, would it help her to discourage it?

Fred

silverbullet
12-28-2002, 07:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Tom...LOLOL! Nah...not really! Whatever works to get the message across!

Scott <hr /></blockquote>

When i dropped my elbow, to me it was not right. Also the shifting the weight forward I also dropped. During the course of the last two months that I was not able to practice drills as much, I found that I was picking up stroke speed. I used to only be able to hit at medium speed and have ppicked up the speed another notch. Where I used to hit the ball too easy, found I had gone a little the other way.

When I broke hard, I was not getting the accuracy and too many of the balls were going to the left. When I dropped the elbow, they split but imo, elbow drop results in a tendency to raise up, take eye off the ball and have too much top, and in my case, was coming through with a little back hand english and top. This made the balls go more to one side and a near scratch on the cb. This is on an 8 ft. Seems this wasnt as noticable on a 9 ft.

Getting back to Scott's up and down the table drill for stroke speed yesterday, I found I indeed could now hit at stroke speed but was not getting the accuracy I get on medium speed. So am backing up to work on accuracy with drills with the cb and a good stroke.

I know that most of the men pros drop their elbow. I asked Randy and he said not to drop elbow on break, mirrowing what scott says. Listening to my instructors here but was curious what the good players here say. Also wondering if there seems to be a difference between what women and men say about this.

So to the A-b women, would love to hear what you say about this also.

bw

Scott Lee
12-29-2002, 12:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Whether or not you believe one can hit the cueball as fast without an elbow drop compared to with an elbow drop is something that can be proven with a radar gun. However, I think it's more important that a person adopts a technique and hones it. If Bluewolf drops her elbow and gets the best break of her life, would it help her to discourage it?

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Fred...We ARE basically in agreement, and so maybe it is a bit of semantics. BTW, I have a radar gun, so we could test this out in VF if ya want! As far as discouraging Laura from using a technique that I believe limits the ability to control the efficiency of the break...WELL, NO I wouldn't want to "discourage" anyone. It then boils down to my last sentence..."different strokes for different folks"! Nobody who has EVER taken a lesson from me has heard me DISCOURAGE anything (especially if it seems to work well for THEM)...but rather to offer alternatives, which involve what I describe as 'natural pendulum motion', which means no, or very little elbow drop.

Scott

12-29-2002, 02:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Whether or not you believe one can hit the cueball as fast without an elbow drop compared to with an elbow drop is something that can be proven with a radar gun. However, I think it's more important that a person adopts a technique and hones it. If Bluewolf drops her elbow and gets the best break of her life, would it help her to discourage it?

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Fred...We ARE basically in agreement, and so maybe it is a bit of semantics. BTW, I have a radar gun, so we could test this out in VF if ya want! As far as discouraging Laura from using a technique that I believe limits the ability to control the efficiency of the break...WELL, NO I wouldn't want to "discourage" anyone. It then boils down to my last sentence..."different strokes for different folks"! Nobody who has EVER taken a lesson from me has heard me DISCOURAGE anything (especially if it seems to work well for THEM)...but rather to offer alternatives, which involve what I describe as 'natural pendulum motion', which means no, or very little elbow drop.

Scott <hr /></blockquote>

scott, check me on this...i think that the elbow drop is an interesting tool in some situations but is dangerous as heck. it adds a whole pile of new variables in terms of muscle involvment and is as likely to hurt you as help you.

yes, sometimes the pros do the elbow drop in some shots but not very often. more often, they stay in the basic form.

dan

Scott Lee
12-29-2002, 10:32 AM
dan...Sho'nuff y'all! Isn't that how ya say it down yonder?
LOL Seriously, I believe the same thing...more variables increase the potential for something to screw up. KISS rules!

Scott

randyg
12-29-2002, 11:03 AM
Keep it simple. Scott's 100% correct.

Let's take a look at the so called "elbow drop". There are three (3) moments when the elbow can drop.
1. Before contact with the cue ball....ooooooow
2. At contact with the cue ball......oooooow
3. After contact with the cue ball....who cares now?

On the break your cue is moving upwards of twenty miles per hour. After contact with the cue ball the elbow might drop from neccesity not on purpose. I'm with Scott, Keep the elbow pinned and loose. KISS is not stupid.....randyg