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View Full Version : BCA = Pitiful lack of industry leadership!



NH_Steve
12-26-2002, 10:06 PM
I don't know about you, but I got pretty disgusted with the USA pool/billiard industry leadership upon reading Billiard Digest's 2003 Power Poll. Who did they poll, BCA leadership? Surprise, surprise, they voted for themselves!! What a bunch of arrogant, selfish…

Oh, yes, there are exceptions, industry leaders that actually take genuine PRIDE in pool/billiards - notably, though, two of those are not Americans (Barry Hearn & Jorgen Sandman). Kudos to Jeanette Lee, too, for celebrating both her pool talent & her charm -- without apology.

But for the industry bosses, if these are the powerful people, why don't they get off their collective asses and DO SOMETHING towards a unified, highly visible, well funded professional tour for pool!?!? My theory is that they are actually embarrassed to be in the pool industry! Oh, among their peers in billiards, it's all self-congratulatory pride in what they do, but at the bank, at the neighborhood cocktail party, and most importantly, in their marketing budget? I don't think so… Until these guys accept pool for what it is - warts and all - there is no way they can be convincing in bringing perimeter industries like food & beverages, apparel, electronics, etc, into the funding fold for pool events. Likewise, how can they sell themselves to the media if they are embarrassed about what they do?

Look at the difference in snooker support in England. Over there, they're not embarrassed by snooker. And don't try to tell me that the game plays a significant different role in society over there, or that snooker players are a cleaner cut bunch. It's still played in smoky, alcohol focused pubs & clubs, with the best players largely from working class backgrounds, and plenty of controversial personalities. Yet the English accept that snooker cuts all they way through society, while the American execs have a self-defeating fantasy that pool should be strictly a pure and wholesome family and gentlemanly (and gentlewomanly) pastime. Puh-lease!!!

Want proof that these powerful 'leaders' are missing the point? Just take a look at the last two big surges in pool interest (and big bucks for those powerful 'leaders'), and what brought about those two huge revivals in pool interest: 'The Hustler' and 'The Color of Money'. For crying out loud, those two movies weren't exactly 'Mary Poppins' meets 'The Sound of Music'; they took full advantage of the dynamic inherently offered by pool's darker side. They worked and they sold - not despite the darker edge of pool, but because of it!

Meanwhile, these powerful business 'leaders' timidly avoid committing to the sport that sets their table, because they are afraid!

Leaders, pshaw - I say they are the Billiard Cowards of America...
/ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
12-27-2002, 08:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote NH_Steve:</font><hr>
Leaders, pshaw - I say they are the Billiard Cowards of America...
/ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Good job NH_Steve

If Ducoff is the biggest heavyweight in the industry I have a question: What the hell has he done? Oh they made that commercial. WOW ! Billiards is on fire now LOL.

Personally I think Mike Howerton does more for pool than the BCA.

NH_Steve
12-27-2002, 12:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>
Personally I think Mike Howerton does more for pool than the BCA. <hr /></blockquote>

Yeah, others receiving "at least two votes" included Allen Hopkins (going sort of head-to-head with the BCA with his Expo), and Pat Fleming of Accustats. Geez, can you tell who ISN'T a BCA insider???

What a joke -- it might have been a valid poll on industry power, but I sure hope it doesn't reflect what they perceive as leadership. Bet those BCA heavy hitters love their first class seats in the billiard bandwagon -- too bad they're afraid they might get their hands dirty if they got out and took a turn pulling the wagon for a change.

To quote the article (January 2003 Billiards Digest), "Still, while the third edition of the biannual Billiards Digest Power Poll did usher in three new faces... ...the voters all seemed to agree on one thing. The people with the greatest potential to affect change and/or alter the direction of the billiard industry clearly resided under the Billiard Congress of America banner."

Pretty discouraging, IMO...

randyg
12-27-2002, 08:22 PM
Very easy to throw stones from the bleachers. The real question is: what have you done to improve our industry today?....randyg

12-28-2002, 02:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> Very easy to throw stones from the bleachers. The real question is: what have you done to improve our industry today?....randyg <hr /></blockquote>

well, gee...this has the makins of a pretty good fight.


one way to look at it is that these guys have now been identified as responsible. whatever happens from here...it's their fault. you might think of the ways that could be useful and maybe even entertaining.

also, one might consider that, for the most part, the billiard "industry" is invested in the sport as played in homes, not poolrooms. not necessarily mutually exclusive but it is ok with them if the customer, instead of walking out with a pool table, get's a hot tub.

as sellers of advertising space, billiards digest should be expected to polish their customers. it's part of relationship building. track your local newspaper's "best dressed"list and 8 out of 10 of those women tie back to big ad buying potential. rarely, however, are they gauche enough to select the publishers wife (or himownself smiling from the "most noticed corner", upper right, of his rag).

i would like to have renee poehlman(#8 and a.p.a.pres.) show me some of her "market savvy". anytime. i'm buying whatever she's sellin. she's probably closer to the real action in pool, and it's possible future, than all the game-room marketeers.

adding the espn guy is just plain smart. i'm glad to see that the network didn't just blow this off.

if i had all ten of them in front of me right now, i'd probably ask these responsible leaders how the heck things got to the point where the first pay per view only got like 16,000 buys. shoot, at ten bucks a pop, those guys could have bought up blocks to rig it to look big. there's all kind of ways, legal, respectable ways they could have supported the event. that darned event was a public election on pool and if they weren't smart enough to rig it right then...well, what did we say at the top? we just found out who's responsible?

dan

Wally_in_Cincy
12-28-2002, 11:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> Very easy to throw stones from the bleachers. The real question is: what have you done to improve our industry today?....randyg <hr /></blockquote>

In the last 12 months between equipment, table time, league fees, accu-stats tapes and instruction let's just say well to the north side of 2 G's

Randy, the BCA obviously does some good things like their instructor certification but there's a financial motive for them even in that, wouldn't you agree?

They seem to be the self-proclaimed governing body of pool, so when things don't go well they better be prepared to take the heat.

JMO, I could be wrong.

<font color="blue"> Respectfully, </font color>

NH_Steve
12-28-2002, 11:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> Very easy to throw stones from the bleachers. The real question is: what have you done to improve our industry today?....randyg <hr /></blockquote>
Randy, you're right about one thing, that's me in the bleachers! No, I'm NOT one of the big industry heavy hitters leading the pool industry into the 21st century -- but you can bet your bippie /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif I do more than my part as a consumer &amp; participant! Don't we get a voice, too? We consumers &amp; participants might be the 'little people', but we also just might be the main fuel that drives this bandwagon...

Okay, now that you've taken a swipe at me for opening the discussion, got anything to add yourself??

Fran Crimi
12-28-2002, 03:06 PM
Steve, I hear ya, and there's no way you could know, but the BCA is doing some really good things for pool. It just doesn't always look that way because you aren't on the inside and you don't know how difficult it is to do.

BUT, having said that...I have my gripes too...like how the pros and refs get charged $350 by the BCA for comped rooms at the Vegas event. I've been asking about that for a long time and no one seems to have an answer.

The latest thing, which I find rather interesting is that I just received a formal letter informing me that I will be placed on an "inactive" instructor list as of Jan. 2nd because I have not sent in 12 student feedback forms for the current and prior year. This is a battle I've been fighting for quite awhile now (which I obviously just lost. Haha). Some 3 or so years ago, the BCA Master Instructors converged in Las Vegas for a big pow-wow on the future of the instructor program as well as to update the instructor manual. Randy wasn't there but Leslie Rogers from his school was, so he can confirm what I'm saying...I said that asking Master Instructors to submit 12 student feedback forms for one hour of instruction is a waste of time. Either require them to submit 50 or 100 forms or no forms. Twelve is ok for an entry level instructor, but Master Instructors had better be teaching more than 12 students a year. Heck, one of Randy's workshops will cover his entire requirement for the year. What good does that do? The same for me. I do Sunday Workshops every year on every Sunday during Jan and Feb. So my requirement would be met after the first or second Sunday in Jan. But what purpose does it serve?


I pay $750 a year to have the priviledge of being a Master Instructor with a BCA Master Academy, and am now going on an inactive list because I didn't tell 12 students in the past 2 years to write to the BCA and tell them how great I am.

But wait...it gets even better. The letter states that the feedback forms only count if they are sent within 30 days after the lesson, but doesn't state how you can get yourself off the inactive list if the forms weren't submitted. Yikes! Am I inactive forever? But and as long as I keep paying my $750 dues on time, I still get the priviledge of remaining on their inactive list.

Oh well, I guess someone will explain it all to me in due time and maybe even how to get off the inactive list.

So, Steve, you see, there are things that don't always make sense at first glance, but there's often a method behind what appears to be the madness. I'm sure there's a reasonable explanation behind this instructor thing, but still, at first glance it seems rather quirky. But it's nothing to lose sleep over. The game will progress at the level that the economy can afford. It really just boils down to that. Success will benefit us all, including the BCA. They would be cutting off their own noses to not push for success in the industry. I just don't see that happening.

Fran (newly inactive instructor)

Popcorn
12-28-2002, 03:44 PM
What is the benefit to you to be a BCA instructor? I think you would do as well with or without them. In fact you may think of forming your own instructors organization. Do you really need them? In my opinion they have always been a self-serving organization. Except for some standard rules, what else do they do? Would the world of pool collapse if they did not exist? ? It is really time for a new organization with it's only agenda, the promotion of the game. Bring the game to a real profesional level, or die trying. Maybe you are the one to do it, who knows, but somebody should try.

Barbara
12-28-2002, 04:03 PM
[ QUOTE ]
BUT, having said that...I have my gripes too...like how the pros and refs get charged $350 by the BCA for comped rooms at the Vegas event. I've been asking about that for a long time and no one seems to have an answer.
<hr /></blockquote>

Yeah, I'd like to know why they charge the Refs for the room and only give a couple hundred dollars for their time in compensation.

Plus, like you, I have to pay to keep my certification. It's only $35/year, but still.

Barbara

randyg
12-28-2002, 04:49 PM
Gentleman, Gentleman, Gentleman. I'm not the person with all the answers. Yes, I have been a BCA Member since 1965 and yes, I have been on the BCA Board.

Walt: Long, long before the VNEA, APA and all the other pool organizations around, the BCA took the leader task and run with it. Self-proclamed? Maybe so. Who's not! Who cares! But we have a choice. Players do not have to play under the BCA guidelines, while some choose to do so. I happen to be one of them. I still play APA &amp; Valley,and play their rules.

I think the bottom line is this: The BCA is a Trade Organization first and foremost, and a damn good one. Their Mission Statement is about the integrity of the sport, not our personal game. Their entire focus is on Manufacuers, Retailers and Room Owners. A Board that consists of VNEA, APA and BCA individules that are working diligently for the sport first, themselves last. This is where they shine. The "home" sales mightly out weight the player base. It makes sense to them to keep most of their energies in that market.

In the last few years a have seen in the BCA, a very defined shift to listen and help the player. It's slowly coming around. Many things that we do not see, happen daily for us. Sometimes it looks like they don't even know we exist. I assure you, that's not the case.

I have chosen the BCA because they are the best for my businesses...excuse me, the only one that is helping my businesses. Where would I be with out them, who knows. But with their steady leadership of my chosen sport, I can proudly supply services to the game and people who love it like you and I. POOL..Everybodys Game!

Gentleman, without a BCA Board Member stepping in on this Chat and waveing the flag, this is a dead end post. My voice is no stronger than yours!

That's why we chose to live in America, we can chose......thanks.randyg

Fran Crimi
12-28-2002, 05:31 PM
Popcorn, your points are well taken and I know there are others who feel as you do. I think the biggest gripe people have is that the BCA was founded as a trade organization, and they haven't done a very good job of convincing the players that they deserve to be the official governing body of pool. They've been trying to transition themselves into this new role for quite a while now, but without much success. They have a history of alienating the players from the industry, where to them, the industry was the "insider" and the pros were the "outsiders." That's been the big problem all along. The pro players are just as much "inside" the industry as any manufacturer or distributor or retailer.

However, the BCA is now making a very smart move to try to rectify that, as they just announced that they are going to allow 4 pros to be on their board of directors. I hear they're accepting applications. The eligible pros had to have played in at least one international event. (Don't know why but that's the requirement.)

Starting your own organization takes time and money, both of which the BCA has and the rest of us don't. It just wouldn't be practical to compete with them without mega-resources. The best anyone can do is to join them and to contribute ideas to help inspire change in a positive direction.

Fran

EZMark
12-28-2002, 06:49 PM
Fran, I appreciate your letter and Randy&gt;s, coments but this has been brought up before nothing is going to happen as long as the retailers are running the BCA. I just retired from the golf business the PGA runs golf should I say more. About three years ago I was notified by a John Lewis that my name would be purged from the instructer list if I did not have my students submit the same forms, well other than put my name on a list that is all that came of my annual dues. In no uncertain I told that office hack to stick his list where the sun does not shine and I do not pay them instructers dues anymore, these type of things upset people in the field. Some facts I am 72 years young I have all the students I want. I have had my own pool room for 15 years, one of the best in Southern California. Some of my students are begginers and other much better players one finished in the top eight in the open at Reno last week. Some references Scott Lee, Mark Wilson, Jeff Carter, and many more. Randy G.&amp; Jerry B. Know me when they see me, I was In Las Vegas and assisted establishing the instructer system as it is today I have alot to offer to pool but was held up by a tactless hack. The players must control thru a professional administrator. Sorry I took up so much of your time, but some body has to say something about it.Thnx EzMark

Troy
12-28-2002, 07:11 PM
Is there any question now why I decided NOT to pursue the Referee idea. ??? /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> <hr /></blockquote>
Yeah, I'd like to know why they charge the Refs for the room and only give a couple hundred dollars for their time in compensation.

Plus, like you, I have to pay to keep my certification. It's only $35/year, but still.

Barbara <hr /></blockquote>

NH_Steve
12-28-2002, 07:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr>... I think the bottom line is this: The BCA is a Trade Organization first and foremost,
and a damn good one. Their Mission Statement is about the integrity of the sport,
not our personal game. Their entire focus is on Manufacuers, Retailers and Room
Owners. <hr /></blockquote>Their virtual boycotting of professional players is an outrageous affront to the sport, IMO. Exactly because they are the trade organization, and they shun their own pro-players, they stand in the way of formation of a major tournament tour! It's almost as if they have blacklisted the players (except for select cameo appearances in their antiseptic family marketing events -- gag).

Yet the kicker is, if a major tour ever does take off (despite BCA stonewalling), they'll be more than happy to climb aboard -- as long as someone like Barry Hearn takes the first risk and proves that it is safe to come out of the closet...

In the mean time, it's pretty hard even for a promoter talent like Hearns to get something going in American pool, when the single most powerful American pool industry association stands in the way!

NH_Steve
12-28-2002, 07:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>
However, the BCA is now making a very smart move to try to rectify that, as they just announced that they are going to allow 4 pros to be on their board of directors. <hr /></blockquote>I'm sorry, but it's kinda hard to give them too much of a pat on the back for something they should have done many, many years ago. And 4 players? Isn't that kind of token? Maybe it's a start, but I was sort of hoping for something to happen (a strong industry supported pro tour) in my life time.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Starting your own organization takes time and money, both of which the BCA has and the rest of us don't.

Fran <hr /></blockquote> The players have started -- and folded -- numerous organizations over the years. However, with the billiard industry essentially blacklisting them, naturally they fail.

Fran, you're pretty familiar with the women's pro effort, which has done better in many ways than the men's efforts -- wouldn't you agree that the main advantage the women have had is that they are not quite so 'untouchable' as the men, within the American billiard industry (embodied by the BCA)? The 'power' exec's in the industry appear to me to find the women much more acceptable to be associated with than the men...

Fran Crimi
12-29-2002, 01:30 AM
Yep. There aren't going to be any major changes anytime soon just because 4 pros are going to be on the BCA Board.

There is no reason that the BCA shouldn't be able to coexist with a both a men's and women's association. The thing that needs to get ironed out is the whole issue around who is the governing body of pool. The WPBA claims to be the governing body of women's pool. The UPA claims to be the men's gov. body. Last year, prior to the Vegas pro event, the BCA sent the pros individual contracts where by signing the contract we would each be recognizing the BCA as the governing body of pool. Obviously, the contracts didn't go over too well.

With all due respect to the BCA, they represent us in the world body, they pay dues on our behalf, they even at times foot the bill for our travel to other countries. They absolutely deserve some recognition for that. I also don't think that they expect to be the supreme rulers over the men and women pros in this country. That's just not going to happen. On the other hand, it would not be in the best interest of the sport for the WPBA and the UPA to challenge the credibility of the BCA with the world body. That would just hurt the sport in this country and make the situation even more conflicted.

So, what both the BCA and the players associations need to do, is to come up with a logical definition of the term 'Governing Body' that works for all three organizations. I think that having the 4 pros on the BCA board is a step in this direction. But it's just the first step, with a long way to go.

Fran

12-29-2002, 02:54 AM
the way i see it, as to the bca, the key issue is the olympics. they have hired a guy whose only real objective that maters is getting us respected by the olympics. i'm down with that 100%. i think the bca is the only outfit with the stature to front the sport to the olympics. a lot of what is going on with boards has to do with the olympics standards and requirements.

i do my bca membership individually as opposed to with the leagues even though i pay a little more. in part that's so i make sure to get the best latest rule book and in part it's to support the bca. overall, i think they are necessary. who else is going to do all that?

i think they are smart not screwing with the players associations.

dan

Fran Crimi
12-29-2002, 03:50 AM
Yup. The Olympics. Let's explore this Olympic situation a bit further before we all get 100% down with the BCA on this....

If we put the puzzle pieces together, it all fits into one big picture----Corporate dollars. Big ones. It's the governing bodies of the various sports organizations who are the recipients of the major corporate contributions that are earmarked for the Olympic games. Could this be why the BCA is pushing very hard to be recognized as the "official" governing body of pool in this country? Mega corporate dollar contributions will flow to the BCA upon Olympic approval. If the players associations are to recognize the BCA as the governing body of pool, then there has to be an agreement regarding the fair distribution of Corporate contributions, otherwise it all goes to the BCA and the players associations get goose eggs.

Fran

NH_Steve
12-29-2002, 08:27 AM
Although I am not a pro insider, I would venture to guess the reason players hold out on 'recognizing' the BCA as the governing body, is that the BCA does absolutely nothing towards the main thing the pro's need: an inustry supported tour. Come on now, why should the pro's recognize as their governing body, an organization that treats them like a pariah, and does nothing to support their tournaments???

NH_Steve
12-29-2002, 08:39 AM
On the contrary, I think the BCA seriously LOSES credibility by their glaring failure to lead the US pro tournament scene -- and guess what, it might even weaken their effort towards the Olympics.

Please, somebody name any other leading sport industry association -- anywhere in the world -- that disses their own top practitioners in this way!!!

randyg
12-29-2002, 09:21 AM
Steve: You just point blank don't know what you're talking about....sorry...randyg

cheesemouse
12-29-2002, 09:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> Steve: You just point blank don't know what you're talking about....sorry...randyg <hr /></blockquote>

randyg,
Would your pool school suffer if it offered or made known that any recognized touring pro could come and do 'quest shots' at your school and get nicely rewarded for their time and expertise?

cheesemouse
12-29-2002, 09:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote NH_Steve:</font><hr> On the contrary, I think the BCA seriously LOSES credibility by their glaring failure to lead the US pro tournament scene -- and guess what, it might even weaken their effort towards the Olympics.

Please, somebody name any other leading sport industry association -- anywhere in the world -- that disses their own top practitioners in this way!!! <hr /></blockquote>

Steve, It will be interesting to note if the BCA buys and commercial spots in the ESPN telecasts of the Mosconi Cup Matches.

randyg
12-29-2002, 10:53 AM
Hi Cheesemouse:

We do just exactly that. For quite some time now we have been offering a couple of hours with the "pro". It has no direct bearing on pool school, but I sure do enjoy the class myself.

We have always offered our private facilities (when not in session) to any "pro" or teachers like Scott, Monk, Dr Cue. What a great location to teach at.

In Dallas we have several great "pros" to learn from. This past month I have had serious conversations with World Champions Bob Vanover &amp; Roger Griffis about this very subject. I believe they both have a lot of information to give. I think their first classes would be sold out. After that? It all depends on how well they comunicate their information to their students. Word of mouth will fill classes or empty seats......Happy New Year....randyg

cheesemouse
12-29-2002, 11:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> Hi Cheesemouse:

We do just exactly that. For quite some time now we have been offering a couple of hours with the "pro". It has no direct bearing on pool school, but I sure do enjoy the class myself.

We have always offered our private facilities (when not in session) to any "pro" or teachers like Scott, Monk, Dr Cue. What a great location to teach at.

In Dallas we have several great "pros" to learn from. This past month I have had serious conversations with World Champions Bob Vanover &amp; Roger Griffis about this very subject. I believe they both have a lot of information to give. I think their first classes would be sold out. After that? It all depends on how well they comunicate their information to their students. Word of mouth will fill classes or empty seats......Happy New Year....randyg <hr /></blockquote>

I'm very glad to hear that. You get my vote and thanks for promoting the best at this great game...

Scott Lee
12-29-2002, 05:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote EZMark:</font><hr> I am 72 years young EzMark <hr /></blockquote>

Mark...Quit lyin' about your age! You CAN'T be 72!!! LOL You've got too much energy! Geez, I guess that golf lifestyle DOES have its benefits! LMAO See ya in the spring!

Scott

Scott Lee
12-29-2002, 05:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cheesemouse:</font><hr> Steve, It will be interesting to note if the BCA buys and commercial spots in the ESPN telecasts of the Mosconi Cup Matches. <hr /></blockquote>

cheese...HA, fat chance! I just watched the four hours of the "highlights" on ESPN, and saw exactly ONE pool-related commercial...a tired 4 year old Brunswick commercial! At least they ran it more than once. Either ESPN priced the spots way too high, or once again, the billiards "trade group" was asleep at the wheel! A BCA spot was nowhere to be seen...sad, very sad. Unbelievable, considering the publicized efforts by the BCA to make pool "everybody's game"! Oh well, maybe next time.

Scott

cheesemouse
12-29-2002, 05:57 PM
Scott,
I watched it all and Brunswick was the only pool related ad buyers, it is sad.
I loved the pool though, it was a nice package even sliced and diced. That is one tough room. I could get used to that kind of pool coverage. I loved the James Bond type cameo's they produced. The heat was on for all the players. Our boys got it taken to them. Holy [censored] that shot that Corey hit was out of range... LOL LOL

Tom_In_Cincy
12-29-2002, 08:42 PM
Steve

I think you are on the correct track. Fifty years or more ago the BCA was formed to sanction regional tournaments and qualifiers for the major championships. Somewhere along the way they started their annual trade shows. I've been to the Nashville and Louisville trade shows and quit going when they moved out west.

I don't necessarily agree about all the top selections BD picked, but what I do know is, if that's the top 50 list POOL is in big trouble.

I don't see anyone on the top ten list that can make an impact in POOL's image, increase its popularity or just make it more acceptable.

The BCA runs a trade show and publishes a rules book (based on the international rules), helps pool room owners, sanctions leagues and runs a yearly tournament.

The BCA recently agreed to be the USA Olympic governing body after the APA and VNEA were reluctant to be the Olympic body.

Olympic rules for governing bodies, require a 25% board membership of players. That's why the BCA is adding the addition 4 players to their board.

NH_Steve
12-29-2002, 09:13 PM
Sorry, randy, but you have blinders on...
All you have come up with is that the BCA helps you in your business (which I never argued at all), and that they do stuff to promote pool via lessons or something (which I never argued at all). Perhaps you missed my big question, because you certainly didn't address it: why doesn't the BCA, as the leading American pool industry trade association do ANYTHING to develop a strong, industry supported pro tour? I happen to think it is shameful that the leading trade group would pointedly sabotage their most talented practitioners.

NH_Steve
12-29-2002, 09:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> Steve: You just point blank don't know what you're talking about....sorry...randyg <hr /></blockquote>
Geez, is there already a BCA led, industry backed US pro pool tour? My bad!

Fran Crimi
12-29-2002, 09:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Steve

The BCA runs a trade show and publishes a rules book (based on the international rules), helps pool room owners, sanctions leagues and runs a yearly tournament.


Tom, it's my understanding that the yearly pro tournament the BCA hosts in Las Vegas is fulfilling an Olympic requirement of hosting one international event per year.


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr>
The BCA recently agreed to be the USA Olympic governing body after the APA and VNEA were reluctant to be the Olympic body.


Tom, rest assured---the BCA has been positioning itself for the role of governing body for purposes of the Olympics for at least 10 years. This is not a case of, "well, since you guys don't want it, we'll take it." It's been a world-wide collaborative effort and the BCA has been in on it right from the start. In fact, I have a copy of a letter in 1996 signed by the Olympic Chairman at the time, Samauranch, (sp?) granting Olympic status to cue sports. That letter came after several years of world collaboration striving to meet Olympic requirements.

One of the last and most important requirements that needs to be filled by the BCA before Olympic approval AND Olympic money, is recognition as governing body of the sport in this country. Last year, this was attempted by the divide and conquer technique where the BCA sent out individual contracts to players, under the guise of a code of conduct to be followed at the BCA Vegas pro event, however with a clear statement in the body of the contract that states the player recognizes the BCA as the governing body of pool in this country.

This attempt by the BCA at bypassing the associations is not exactly what I would call up front and above board. They know that if they try to obtain official recognition through the players associations, there will have to be some negiotiations. They'd rather not do that if they don't have to. However, our players associations have our players under contract whereby our association negotiates all contracts for tournaments for the players on their behalf, so the BCA plan to achieve recognition in this manner was not effective.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr>
Olympic rules for governing bodies, require a 25% board membership of players. That's why the BCA is adding the addition 4 players to their board. <hr /></blockquote>

Well, I guess that explains the 4 players on the board, Tom. Kind of disappointing....I was hoping there was something more altruistic going on with that.

Fran

randyg
12-30-2002, 07:55 AM
Because it's not their business....randyg

Wally_in_Cincy
12-30-2002, 09:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr>
Olympic rules for governing bodies, require a 25% board membership of players. That's why the BCA is adding the addition 4 players to their board. <hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>

Well, I guess that explains the 4 players on the board, Tom. Kind of disappointing....I was hoping there was something more altruistic going on with that.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

I was going to point that out but Tom beat me to it.

I'm really getting tired of this Olympics talk from the BCA. The Olympics is not going to be pool's savior. Pool needs someone with resources and marketing savvy. The folks that put on the Mosconi Cup hopefully will do some stuff here when they get their pocket calculators out and add up all the greenbacks floating around here in the Colonies /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fred Agnir
12-30-2002, 09:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cheesemouse:</font><hr> Scott,
I watched it all and Brunswick was the only pool related ad buyers, it is sad.<hr /></blockquote>

I thought that there were a couple of Viking ads. One was pretty good, IIRC. Where an animated/CIG Gordon Hart beams in.

Fred

Fran Crimi
12-30-2002, 10:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>

I'm really getting tired of this Olympics talk from the BCA. The Olympics is not going to be pool's savior. Pool needs someone with resources and marketing savvy. The folks that put on the Mosconi Cup hopefully will do some stuff here when they get their pocket calculators out and add up all the greenbacks floating around here in the Colonies /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Wally, once upon a time, back in the early '90's, a man in Sweeden, Jorgan Sandman, had a dream: Cue sports in the Olympics. He began to research the possibiltiy, found out what needed to be done, and founded the World Federation of Cue Sports. Other countries that were never organized in the sport began to organize and form governing bodies. The World Championships were born. International events sprouted up in China, Japan, Germany, the U.S. and many other nations. Players are now traveling all over the world to compete in countries they never would have dreamed of.

That Olympic dream opened a giant global door for cue sports. The world championships in Cardiff, with it's gazillion hours of TV coverage, is a direct result of that process put into motion so many years ago.

While it may not appear like this Olympic bid is getting us any richer, it is, because we're more organized on a global basis.

The time is coming when the corporate mega-conglomerates won't be able to ignore us anymore. It took us a decade just to get to this point. It's a slow process but it's happening. Even if we don't make it to the Olympics, a whole lot of good things have come out of the process.


Fran

Kato
12-30-2002, 10:16 AM
The Johnny Archer/Steve Davis (or was it Ortman?) commercial with Davis/Ortman crushing the 9-ball and Johnny with his southern drawl. I thought it was great.

Kato

Tom_In_Cincy
12-30-2002, 10:28 AM
Fran,
(great to see you posting again, thanks for your return)

Other than the IBC tour, what other international event is staged in the USA?

The world is embracing the pool scene (i.e. Japan and Europe World events) when will the USA start doing this?

The Olympics has pre-Olympics world championships for most of their events. Olympic sponsored Nationals and International tournaments that include the top performers (notice I didn't say atheletes) are held during the 4 years between the Olympics. When will the USA promote such an event? Wouldn't this be what the BCA should be doing?

I would love to see pool grow, become more respected and have city, state, regional and national "standards" for skill levels. But, as long as there are so many different orgs (BCA, APA, VNEA, TAP and local orgs) there is just too much chaos for any standard.

There are "standards" for all other olympic events even Bowling.

Is there a standard for pool? other than equipment specs?

Just wondering.. not trying to put anyone on the spot here, just voicing some questions that I haven't seen any of the BD's Top industry leaders address..... but I sure wish they would.

Rich R.
12-30-2002, 11:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr>
Other than the IBC tour, what other international event is staged in the USA? <hr /></blockquote>
Tom, I may be stretching the point a bit, but if you look at the player list for any of the major tournaments, both men and women, I believe they are all international events.
I know that the players are not backed by sports federations in their home lands, but when you have a group of players from many countries and continents, you have to consider these tournaments international events. JMHO.

Fran Crimi
12-30-2002, 11:19 AM
I'm no expert on this stuff by any means, but I think I have an idea of why this isn't happening yet. It's too soon. From what I can tell, all the countries are still in the organization stages, including ours, and it will be sometime before we can actually host one of these major events. First we still have to gain acceptance and entry into those in-between Olympic events on a global level. That's where our World Federation comes in. They have to fill out international applications and bid for acceptance. I'm sure at this point they're rejected more often than accepted.

We made a major breakthrough recently when we were accepted into the World Games. That's Olympic level stuff, so it seems to me that the World Federation is definitely out there working on it.

Fran

Mr Ingrate
12-30-2002, 12:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> I'm no expert on this stuff by any means, but I think I have an idea of why this isn't happening yet. It's too soon. From what I can tell, all the countries are still in the organization stages, including ours, and it will be sometime before we can actually host one of these major events. First we still have to gain acceptance and entry into those in-between Olympic events on a global level. That's where our World Federation comes in. They have to fill out international applications and bid for acceptance. I'm sure at this point they're rejected more often than accepted.

We made a major breakthrough recently when we were accepted into the World Games. That's Olympic level stuff, so it seems to me that the World Federation is definitely out there working on it.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Fran,

Good to see you posting again. A press release I saw last year dropped billiards as a sport being considered for the olympics, along with a bunch of others. It seemed the olympic committee is paring down the number of sports and only inserting new sports when an existing one is removed. Doubt if it will happen in my lifetime .... I'm 60 now. Of course they are also cutting chunks out of me at an alarming pace. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Here is a link to the latest press release I could find from the committee that mentioned pool.

http://www.olympic.org/uk/news/publications/press_uk.asp?release=308

Tom_In_Cincy
12-30-2002, 01:12 PM
Rich,

Good point... but I was referring to Olympic sanctioned events. Sorry for my confusing post.

NH_Steve
12-30-2002, 02:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote NH_Steve:</font><hr> Sorry, randy, but you have blinders on...
All you have come up with is that the BCA helps you in your business (which I never argued at all), and that they do stuff to promote pool via lessons or something (which I never argued at all). Perhaps you missed my big question, because you certainly didn't address it: why doesn't the BCA, as the leading American pool industry trade association do ANYTHING to develop a strong, industry supported pro tour? I happen to think it is shameful that the leading trade group would pointedly sabotage their most talented practitioners. <hr /></blockquote><blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> Because it's not their business....randyg <hr /></blockquote>
Randtg, you've got to be kidding!

NH_Steve
12-30-2002, 02:51 PM
Too bad that here in the States, it is our own self-annointed governing body, the pre-eminent billiard trade organization in the U$A that stands in the way of a pre-eminent American pro tour /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

NH_Steve
12-30-2002, 02:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> ...Pool needs someone with resources and marketing savvy. The folks that put on the Mosconi Cup hopefully will do some stuff here when they get their pocket calculators out and add up all the greenbacks floating around here in the Colonies /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote> Wally, the irony is, as much as the BCA could have had a strong US tour in place years ago, their foot dragging might lead to just what you've suggested, and guess what: it would be Barry Hearn that OWNS the tour, just like the France family owning NASCAR!! Hahahaha to the Billiard Cowards of America!!!!!

Scott Lee
12-30-2002, 08:35 PM
RJ...that is called a promo...not a commercial! LOL

Fran Crimi
12-31-2002, 12:40 AM
Hi Dave,

Yes I heard about that. Well, the BCA relocated their main office last year to Colorado Springs, which coincidentally happens to be a few paces from the U.S. Olympic Committee's headquarters. (Tell me these guys aren't serious about the Olympics.) Maybe they'll send someone over there to bang on the door.

Fran