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View Full Version : Best way to learn is losing



fasteddie
12-29-2002, 07:32 PM
Thoughts on the theory that the best way to learn is to lose.By playing players of a higher standard than yourself will teach you more than beating players of a lower skill level.My theory is to analays my opponent and learn with every rack.It works for me.

Tom_In_Cincy
12-29-2002, 07:56 PM
"Losing"? The best way to learn?

I would suggest getting a good qualified instructor, developing a practice routine, join a league and play in tournaments. This IMO would be the best way learn.

"Losing" is what happens along the way. You can always watch someone in a pool hall that is better than you, and observe and learn. But, a good instructor will help you determine what to look for.

fasteddie
12-29-2002, 08:15 PM
THANKS TOM I TAKE YOUR POINT,BUT YOU MISSED MINE.INSTRUCTION,PRACTICE ROUTINES,LEAGUES PLAY AND TOURNIMENTS DO HELP AND YOU CAN WATCH BETTER PLAYERS IN BARS.MY POINT IS THIS THOUGH YOU CANNOT INTERACT AGAINST SOMEONE YOU ARE WATCHING UNLESS YOU ARE PLAYING THEM UTHERWISE WE WOULD ALL JUST WATCH THE PROS ON TV.LEARNING TO WIN IS DIFFICULT FIRST YOU MUST LEARN HOW NOT TO LOSE.LEARNING HOW BETTER PLAYERS BEAT YOU WILL TEACH YOU HOW TO WIN.

Jon from MN
12-29-2002, 08:42 PM
When I started to play you couldnt get lessons. So what I did was play players I could beat save the $$ and use that to play players much better than me. Soon I was playing these champs all the time so I guess that worked for me. However lessons really speed up the process ans gives you the tools to play the masters.

9 Ball Girl
12-29-2002, 08:57 PM
I have to agree with both you and Tom. Yes, playing in leagues and tourneys definitely help. From my own personal experience, I get more out of playing in tournaments because you have higher caliber players in them than you do in leagues and I know I can't make a mistake when you play these players. But in all cases, playing in both definitely helps because you will get different skilled players. And when I do lose, the first thing that comes to mind is Practice, Practice, and more Practice.

On the other hand when I am not playing, I try to get out to Pro/Open tourneys because they help me as well. I get to see shots that often come up for me too and when I see them do it, I sit there and think "Oooohhhh, now I know what to do next time" and/or you see patterns and a bunch more things I can't think of at the moment. Same thing for the televised matches too. Today I sat through 5 hours of televised matches and just soak up what I see. JMO

fasteddie
12-29-2002, 08:58 PM
REMIND ME NOT TO PLAY YOU FOR A LOT OF $$$$$. LESSONS ARE GREAT IF YOU REMEMBER THEM. THANKS.

Tom_In_Cincy
12-29-2002, 09:16 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Thoughts on the theory that the best way to learn is to lose.<hr /></blockquote>
[ QUOTE ]
THANKS TOM I TAKE YOUR POINT,BUT YOU MISSED MINE.<hr /></blockquote>

You point was pretty well made, I didn't miss it. I just added my thoughts.

My thoughts on "the best way to learn...." were included in my post.

There is a great deal to be learned about how to play pool .. and even more to learn about how YOU play pool.

The more you play, using the lessons, practice and competion the faster your skill level will improve. IMO Competion is only one aspect of the process. To NOT include lessons and practice, and just compete, it will take you longer to become a better player.

Popcorn
12-29-2002, 09:35 PM
Kind of a silly debate, I deleted my response.

fasteddie
12-29-2002, 10:04 PM
Popcorn you still have to play these better players.Surely it is more pertinant to say that watching these better players gave you the confidence to play them.Learning you may have been but it was interacting with them,feeding of them and gaining experiance that help you beat them.Also getting beat by someone does not find you your level you must find out how not to lose to them before you can beat them. Only a thought.

fasteddie
12-29-2002, 10:10 PM
Tom good point there is a difference between how to play pool and how you play pool.

LC3
12-30-2002, 02:41 AM
I agree with Tom that having a qualified instructor and a good practice routine is the most beneficial. Comparing the value of winning to the value of losing, I'd say losing to a better player usually offers more learning opportunities.

bigbro6060
12-30-2002, 02:49 AM
Yes practice and instruction are the most important things for improving but of course matchplay is important too

I disagree that just playing good players is the best way. You should learn to play players better than you, players worse than you and players the same level. Do not underestimate how important it is to be able to comfortably beat players you are better than you. In these matches the pressure is fully on you ! your opponent can shoot without pressure. Just like when you play better players. You shoot better because the pressure isn't on you. It's all too easy to not concentrate as much when playing weaker players.

TomBrooklyn
12-30-2002, 02:52 AM
I don't mind playing someone better than me, but I find playing and winning to be good practice for my game also, and more fun.

Perk
12-30-2002, 06:40 AM
Everyone is correct!

Playin better players will help your game in the long run. As long as you pay attention and learn rather than get frustrated over the long waits between shots/racks. Ever sat and watched someone run all 5 racks in a race to 5 tourney against ya? Fun right?

Gaining confidence from playin lesser players will increase your game. Remember the whole idea of confidence? Many people have spoke on this board regarding warmups and pocketing balls to gain confidence. Take all easy shots to build your stroke and confidence up. Well, playing a lesser player you will get a chance to run some balls and play your position.

Remember, playing a better player than you will most likely bring you to the table with a tuff shot to get started with. Where do ya start? Just my morning thoughts over my first coffee.

Fred Agnir
12-30-2002, 08:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote fasteddie:</font><hr> Thoughts on the theory that the best way to learn is to lose.By playing players of a higher standard than yourself will teach you more than beating players of a lower skill level.My theory is to analays my opponent and learn with every rack.It works for me. <hr /></blockquote>
I think that the best thing to do if you lose is learn from your mistakes. Maybe that's what you really mean? I think the best way to learn is watching better players, not racking for better players.

Fred

Fred Agnir
12-30-2002, 08:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote fasteddie:</font><hr> MY POINT IS THIS THOUGH YOU CANNOT INTERACT AGAINST SOMEONE YOU ARE WATCHING UNLESS YOU ARE PLAYING THEM UTHERWISE WE WOULD ALL JUST WATCH THE PROS ON TV.<hr /></blockquote>
Watching the pros in person is, IMO, worth about 10 times more than watching them on screen (which is also very beneficial).

I don't think there's as much benefit if your opponent is drubbing you. In many cases, the shear negativity from having your ass handed to you time and time again can be worse for you game.

Fred

fasteddie
12-30-2002, 01:18 PM
Fred you got my point everything else is important(practice etc)but learning from your mistakes helps you to win.Table time is important,cutting out mistakes is parimount.The point was to learn to win by learning first how not to lose.

silverbullet
12-30-2002, 01:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote fasteddie:</font><hr> Fred you got my point everything else is important(practice etc)but learning from your mistakes helps you to win.Table time is important,cutting out mistakes is parimount.The point was to learn to win by learning first how not to lose. <hr /></blockquote>

I dont quite see this. The last time I played, I beat who I believe was a better player. It could have gone either way but at my sl I did not have to beat him in a dead even race. But I still learned things I need to work on, different ways to look at strategy.

I have learned also from players that beat me. I often looked at what they did good that got more balls in the hole and the 8, to my level of understanding at the time.

So, I guess I feel that if I play my best, I may still lose because of the other player being better or because of mistakes I made. But if I win, either way, I need to look at my game.

Is this discussion kind of like 'no pain, no gain'?? /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

bw

fasteddie
12-30-2002, 05:44 PM
Silverbullet its good to here that you learn to from your opponents.Everyone has there own level of playing but you are never to good to learn something.Practice is so very important but you will never find out how good you are until you test yourself against opposition.Learning to win is very important.To some winning is just a match others a competition .You can,t learn to win without learning first why you loss.Its only a theory i have but its good to hear others opinions.Maybe no gain without pain is my theory. Thanks.

Predator
12-31-2002, 11:30 AM
Seems to me that everyone is right here. But, it all depends on what type of game you are trying to improve. Taking lessons from a qualified instructor will no doubt improve your game. Mostly, these lessons will usually do you more good when your a tournament player. Lets face it, no matter how good your tecnique gets, the only way to get better at playing for money is to, well, play for money! There's no getting around that. Gambling is not the same type of pressure that tournaments are. And I don't agree that "losing" is the best way to learn. Just "playing" with more experienced players will help your game alot. Let's face it, it's not the actual losing that improves your game, it's just the time spent playing with these more experienced players and picking up things they do that would be beneficial to your game. I agree with everyone that lessons will surley improve your game, but, if you want to be a better money, you have to go out and play for money. I said PLAY, not necesarilly LOSE. When playing a better player for money, you're going to learn whether you win, or not. So, go out and play to WIN and you will surely LEARN at the same time, win or lose.

12-31-2002, 11:58 AM
I agree with Pred. "Playing" opponents of higher caliber than yourself, not just "losing" to better opponents, can be a valued learning experience. Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser. When I lose, it's that burning deep down in my gut that tells me something is not right and I need to fix it(practice, lessons, etc...). The human body uses pain to let the brain know that something is wrong. It is this pain that motivates me to improve. I guess what I'm saying is that losing teaches me how much I'd rather win. JMO

fasteddie
12-31-2002, 04:07 PM
Your point is taken.
The original post is a bit ambiguous losing is only benifitial if you learn why you lose and apply it to your game.In other words gaining experiance.
I agree with you on playing for money,its a totally different ball game.You may think you are a great player but if you cannot handle the pressure you will never get anywhere.

12-31-2002, 09:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote fasteddie:</font><hr> playing players of a higher standard than yourself will teach you <hr /></blockquote>
Years ago when I first started playing, I played against some pretty talented guys and it taught me a lot! These were guys that had been playing for quite some time. No matter how I did, I wouldn't get discouraged; I'd just watch them as I was playing them and try my best to beat them. The more I'd play them, the better I'd get. I think a lot of it had to do w/ them having a lot higher skill level than me (where I could learn from) and that I was always very competitive about it. Back when I started playing there was no talk of actual "lessons", so the best way for me to learn, was to play people of a higher skill level than myself and to play A LOT! When I don't play for a long time, I'm VERY rusty, to say the least.
Tigger /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

12-31-2002, 09:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bigbro6060:</font><hr>
It's all too easy to not concentrate as much when playing weaker players.

<hr /></blockquote>I think there's definitely a lot to what you're saying about playing weaker players. I can still remember playing my sister years ago. She had never really played pool (on her first shot, she nearly ripped the felt off the table /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif), so I guess I thought she'd be "easy pickings". I don't remember being cocky or anything, but I do remember thinking that I was going to make a short game of it. I started making ALL kind of STUPID mistakes /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif I was SO mad at myself ( I've never been mad at the other person, but I get really mad at myself when I make stupid mistakes)! I did end up beating her, but w/ all the mistakes I started making (ones I didn't make against players that were better than me), it took a lot longer than I thought it would.
Tigger /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif