PDA

View Full Version : Are the Top Players really 'Nameless Hustlers'?



bigbro6060
12-30-2002, 03:08 AM
Following on from the Top money earners thread. The figures really are pathetic. I've read that there are dozens , if not more players out there who choose to 'hide their speed' so they can hustle a living. i've heard more money can be made this way than on tour. Taking away the absolute top notchers like Efren and Earl, are there many unknown players out there easily as good as the other players on the tour ? I mean if Archer is making only 50K a year , the lesser players would be below that. Wouldn't be hard for a hustler of equal skill to make 40-50K a year


anyone know any such players ?

Cueless Joey
12-30-2002, 04:05 AM
I know there's a player in Alabama who's making a lot more than Archer but he is already being too notorious.
I doubt if there's a lot of his kind out there.

Perk
12-30-2002, 06:23 AM
I believe that there are "many" players out there that make money hustling as you called it in that range of $40 K or so a year. I have one particular friend that does. But here is the problem...No steady income, No benefits, No car....After the year, where did all the money go? Also, imagine how much money these people have to give away to their backers throught the course of the year? Uncle Sam should endorse to get his share. The cost/win ratio isnt very good in the pool world.

If these people could work Mon-Thurs 40 hours,,,and only play/gamble on weekends as supplemental income, then maybe it would be worth while...but then again..how much "speed" will ya lose if you dont play/work everyday of the week!

<--not a bigtime money maker, likes being the little guy!

Mike H
12-30-2002, 12:32 PM
Here's something to chew on: A few years ago, I was talking with a top 10 player in Valley Forge, and I brought up the subject of playing on the road when he was younger. I asked him about the levels of competition he ran into, if he ended up matching up with guys he had trouble with heads up. His reply: "There are some guys out there you never heard of who play so good you wouldn't believe it if you saw it with your own two eyes." Enough said.

Scott Lee
12-31-2002, 12:52 AM
Mike...To take it a step further, you DON'T have to "hustle" (hide your speed) to make great money gambling at pool. There are a zillion guys who just like to play and gamble...for $5, $10, or $20 a game. They are not world beaters, and you can just play and win (as long as you don't rub it in)! Gambling to win is more knowing WHO to play and who NOT to play. Jack White used to tell a story about coming into a poolroom one time, and there were a couple top players playing for $600 on the front table, with a large crowd watching them. He went right past them to a table in the back, matched up with somebody, won the SAME money, and walked out the door with nobody the wiser. LOL

Scott Lee

Predator
12-31-2002, 09:46 AM
I gotta agree with Scott on this one, anyone and I do mean ANYONE can make money gambling at pool as long as they are just there to make money,(and considering they are at least an intermediate speed). Like Scott said, if making money is all your looking to do, then it's just in WHO you play. As long as you don't let your ego get involved, and are there to just to make money you'll probably walk out a winner 9 out of 10 times. The worst thing you can do to jeaprodize making decent money, is to let your EGO get involved in the game. Just go to make money, not to make others think of you as the best. Keep yourself low profile and you'll never have any trouble finding a game you can win. Remember, it's just about the money.

Fred Agnir
12-31-2002, 09:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Mike H:</font><hr> Here's something to chew on: A few years ago, I was talking with a top 10 player in Valley Forge, and I brought up the subject of playing on the road when he was younger. I asked him about the levels of competition he ran into, if he ended up matching up with guys he had trouble with heads up. His reply: "There are some guys out there you never heard of who play so good you wouldn't believe it if you saw it with your own two eyes." Enough said. <hr /></blockquote>
You hear this all the time. I think the best of that idea can be seen at the Derby City Classic, where relatively unknown players are near the top of the one-pocket and short-rack banks competition. But, usually, the number one spot is a known player like Nick, Shannon, Buddy, Jose, Cliff in those disciplines.

I think guys like John Brumback, Dee Adkins, and Troy Frank are the "unknown greats" that in recent years have become "known."

Fred

12-31-2002, 10:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Mike H:</font><hr> Here's something to chew on: A few years ago, I was talking with a top 10 player in Valley Forge, and I brought up the subject of playing on the road when he was younger. I asked him about the levels of competition he ran into, if he ended up matching up with guys he had trouble with heads up. His reply: "There are some guys out there you never heard of who play so good you wouldn't believe it if you saw it with your own two eyes." Enough said. <hr /></blockquote>
You hear this all the time. I think the best of that idea can be seen at the Derby City Classic, where relatively unknown players are near the top of the one-pocket and short-rack banks competition. But, usually, the number one spot is a known player like Nick, Shannon, Buddy, Jose, Cliff in those disciplines.

I think guys like John Brumback, Dee Adkins, and Troy Frank are the "unknown greats" that in recent years have become "known."

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

The best local players are just that, local. They are not going to travel to any tournaments and have their names posted in the top five. They will simply beat all comers, quietly work their day job and enjoy the game. Until recently the best player in the US rarely entered tournaments and many of you here may have either never heard of him or not realize his true speed and ability. His name is James Walden and he hails from OKC. Pick a game and bet really high ($10,000 sets) and see how the big names do against him.

Jimbo

Popcorn
12-31-2002, 10:07 AM
You know that quote you use at the bottom of your posts may have sounded profound to a movie script writer, but it is not at all true. Gamblers never have any respect for money they win, they will always piss it away. The worst part of gambling with some of these guys is, if you are stuck and want to play some more the next night, there is a good chance they won't have a penny of your money left. They have an equal lack of respect for money they borrow, as well as those that loaned it to them. People who do honest work for their money, treat it with respect. That quote makes little sense in my opinion, just movie stuff.

Fred Agnir
12-31-2002, 10:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimbo:</font><hr> Until recently the best player in the US rarely entered tournaments and many of you here may have either never heard of him or not realize his true speed and ability. His name is James Walden and he hails from OKC. Pick a game and bet really high ($10,000 sets) and see how the big names do against him.<hr /></blockquote>

I think several of us have seen him play, and he certainly was in a high-dollar match. I think he's a helluva player, but nowhere near the "best player in the U.S."

Fred

12-31-2002, 10:17 AM
As I said Fred, most of you here will underestimate his true speed. Plus if you are using tournament results to determine who is the better player IMO that is a poor measure. The wise ones will understand why this is so and will continue to be true until there is a great deal more money available on the tournament trail. One of my strongest abilities has been gauging someones' true speed whether they were playing their best at that moment in time or not. This has served me very well and increased my profitability both when matching up and staking.


Jimbo

Popcorn
12-31-2002, 10:23 AM
To add something, strong players are conditioned winners and if they have the worst of it, maybe they have made a bad game or whatever, they pull up. They are looking to win money, not gamble. A gambler accepts losing with no problem and is far more worth while playing. Even if you have to make a very tough game, at least you know if you can win at it, you will win something. At home I like to play guys that come around looking to play, but I always keep in mind they did not come here to gamble, they came to win money, not lose money. If they wanted to just gamble they could just stay home and do that. So I have no problem stalling or asking for weight and trapping them, they are far from innocent parties. I know I see funny looks from some people in the pool room when they hear the conversation. Playing down your speed and asking for weight, but guys that come looking to play are fair game in my opinion. They make plenty of easy money, they deserve to get trapped once in a while themselves.

Fred Agnir
12-31-2002, 10:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimbo:</font><hr> As I said Fred, most of you here will underestimate his true speed. Plus if you are using tournament results to determine who is the better player IMO that is a poor measure. <hr /></blockquote>
You must have missed it where I wrote:

"...and he certainly was in a high-dollar match. "

[ QUOTE ]
One of my strongest abilities has been gauging someones' true speed whether they were playing their best at that moment in time or not. This has served me very well and profitability both when matching up and staking.<hr /></blockquote>
So, let me get this straight. When you see him win, he's the best player in the U.S., but when he's losing, he's not playing their best at the moment?

I think some of us deserve a bit more credit.

Fred &lt;~~~ saw James Walden play when he wasn't playing the part of the best player in the U.S., apparently

12-31-2002, 10:44 AM
Fred I don't know why I continue to bother replying to your narrow minded posts. Your high dollar may be relative, ever considered that? Plus everyone loses ocassionally, period.

Jimbo

Fred Agnir
12-31-2002, 11:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimbo:</font><hr> Fred I don't know why I continue to bother replying to your narrow minded posts. Your high dollar may be relative, ever considered that? Plus everyone loses ocassionally, period.

Jimbo <hr /></blockquote>
??? You claim that he's the best in the U.S. and now you accuse me of being narrow-minded? You keep making assumptions. Did it ever occur to you that some of us actually know something about this game? My goodness. Surely you don't think you've got a lock on what is top notch play?

You mentioned a dollar figure. I watched him play for much more than that. If you knew anything about the internet, you'd know that his name has been tossed around for many years and has been reported at winning *and* losing. I and many others on this very board have seen him play in person. Do you think your OKC connection makes you the only guy who can see him play? That's pretty damned arrogant.

So, again, how am I narrow-minded?

Fred &lt;~~~ unfreakin' believable

Predator
12-31-2002, 11:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> You know that quote you use at the bottom of your posts may have sounded profound to a movie script writer, but it is not at all true. Gamblers never have any respect for money they win, they will always piss it away. The worst part of gambling with some of these guys is, if you are stuck and want to play some more the next night, there is a good chance they won't have a penny of your money left. They have an equal lack of respect for money they borrow, as well as those that loaned it to them. People who do honest work for their money, treat it with respect. That quote makes little sense in my opinion, just movie stuff. <hr /></blockquote>

Predator
12-31-2002, 11:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimbo:</font><hr> Fred I don't know why I continue to bother replying to your narrow minded posts. Your high dollar may be relative, ever considered that? Plus everyone loses ocassionally, period.
Don't mind him Jimbo, some people just have to see with their own eyes before they will believe something. I live in Oklahoma also, I know who James Walden is. He played a pretty high dollar game of one-pocket with a guy in my town by the name of Larry Humphreys. And I can back you up in the fact that he is as good, if not better than any other pro player out there. He's the type of guy who will play anyone for anything. Be it one-pocket, or 9-ball, or whatever. Anyway, let's not be TOO hard on Fred. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Jimbo <hr /></blockquote>

Predator
12-31-2002, 11:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> You know that quote you use at the bottom of your posts may have sounded profound to a movie script writer, but it is not at all true. Gamblers never have any respect for money they win, they will always piss it away. The worst part of gambling with some of these guys is, if you are stuck and want to play some more the next night, there is a good chance they won't have a penny of your money left. They have an equal lack of respect for money they borrow, as well as those that loaned it to them. People who do honest work for their money, treat it with respect. That quote makes little sense in my opinion, just movie stuff. <hr /></blockquote> I know exactly what you mean Popcorn, I honestly don't believe that either. That is one of my favorite movies though, but I would never borrow money just to go and gamble with. I understand completely about what you were saying about certain types of people who are nothing but gamblers having no respect whatsoever for the money they have won, or borrowed to play with. The line is a classic, thats all. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

HOWARD
12-31-2002, 02:21 PM
In the case of a road player we can not know the amount of money he makes. In the case of tour player eg: Mr. Johnny Archer, we can not know either. We do not know the amount he might take in private matches, exhibitions or teaching etc. So taking your number of 50K we may or may not be able to add to it.

It does amuse me the diametrical opposite view that are express on the board sometimes. Here on this thread, we have people showing the ways to hustle, warning to scout first before making a game. But at other times we have people wanting the game taken up to where the general reputation of pool is pulled out of the lower end of the spectrum people view it.

The strength of a road player. Who can judge. Even if you see one in action - if he is winning - is he playing just above the skill level of the opponent or is he playing at his top level ? Nothing but questions - answer all on spec.

Howard

Fred Agnir
12-31-2002, 02:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Predator:</font><hr>
Don't mind him Jimbo, some people just have to see with their own eyes before they will believe something. I live in Oklahoma also, I know who James Walden is. <hr /></blockquote>

Did I write in invisible ink or something? Or do both of you want to continue to pass up the reality that I and many other people on this very board have watched James Walden play live and in person for much more than the aforementioned amount.

And don't you dare for one second mislead anyone to think that I said something negative about his play. He's a great player, and I'll say it over and over again. Are you telling me you agree that he's "the best player in the U.S."? Simple question. Give me a simple answer.

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, let's not be TOO hard on Fred. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
<hr /></blockquote>
Yes, let's not be too hard on Fred by continuously showing a lack of reading comprehension. Nice job guys.

Fred

Predator
12-31-2002, 05:58 PM
I apologize Fred, if it sounded like I was trying to insult you. I just agree that some readers on here will not believe his true speed without seeing him play in person. I can't say for certain that his is THE best player in the country, but, I can confidently say that he can play and beat ANY pro on the tour on any given day. I would back him against any pro if I had the money to do so. But YES, he is at least as good as any pro i've seen play. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

landshark1002000
12-31-2002, 06:35 PM
Opinions are like A**holes, everybodies got one. So there's not much point in trying to argue each other's parts off.
No one likes to be the bone getting chewed on by the big dog, either. Last time I looked, this was a pretty big porch. Maybe there's enough room for more than one big dog's opinion here.
You folks have lots to offer. In the end, that's why we all come to the porch; to listen, to learn and to talk about pool. I appreciate this place because of it.

Scott Lee
12-31-2002, 07:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> I think guys like John Brumback, Dee Adkins, and Troy Frank are the "unknown greats" that in recent years have become "known."

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Hmmmmm...must be something in the waters of the Ohio River! LOL

Tom_In_Cincy
12-31-2002, 08:05 PM
Scott... thanks.. I'll take that as a compliment.. LOL

Scott Lee
12-31-2002, 08:08 PM
Howard...and add to that, many times TOP players have "dumped" a game or match to take off the side action.
Mr. Waldon's name has been mentioned before. There simply is NO "best player in the U.S."! There is no way to measure it, and no way to confirm it. The very nature of game ensures that ANYONE can beat ANYONE at almost any game, for any amount of money or ego, on ANY given day.

Scott Lee

Fred Agnir
01-01-2003, 11:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>
Hmmmmm...must be something in the waters of the Ohio River! LOL <hr /></blockquote>
Amen to that. Ohio seems to grow and attract a seemingly large percentage of the professional players.

Fred &lt;~~~ maybe should have drank more of that Ohio water.