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View Full Version : Pro Pool School with Immonen, Robles, & Williams



koreandragon
01-01-2003, 01:13 AM
Pro Pool School in Roanoke, VA
Jan 18-19
Guys & Dolls Billiards

$400 a student (limited to first 18)

Imagine getting instruction from 3 world class UPA professionals for 2 full intense days! Because of the help of industry sponsors the school is available at 1/4 of the normal costs!

If you want to play like the pros you have to get into their heads and think like they do.

You must learn their every move for every situation. Learn what to do when there is no shot. Analyze and execute like the pros. And of course practice and prepare like the pros do.

Here's your chance! Our instructors are not only great teachers but world class top ranked professionals.

The Instructors:

Mika Immonen- 2001 World Champion and recently won the Mosconi Cup with Team Europe on ESPN. Also defeated Efren Reyes for the Philippines Invitational this past November.
UPA Ranking: Top 10

Mika will be covering such subjects as :
-shot making
-jump shots
-banking
-kicking
-patterns & running out
-finesse shots
-cut breaking
-physical conditioning and preparation
-mental discipline

Tony Robles- Just recently finished 2nd at the Predator UPA Pro Tour Championship and also finished 2nd at the BCA Open on ESPN earlier this year taking down top names like Archer, Varner, Hall, and Deuel. One of the best straight pool players in the world with a high 267 ball run and is tied for the US Open Straight Pool High Run record of 150 balls. Also 2 time Sportsman of the Year.
UPA Ranking: Top 20

Tony will cover such topics like:
-fundamental techniques
-position play
-cue ball control(Tony's deadly accurate 3-2-1 system)
-kicking
-finesse shots
-patterns and running out
-How to practice
-mental attitude

Charlie Williams- 2002 BCA Open Champion as shown on ESPN. 2001 US Mosconi Cup Winner. 2001 Turning Stone Invitational and 2x Florida Tour Player of the Year with credential wins over such names as Parica, Hall, Strickland and Rempe.

Charlie will cover areas such as:
-shot making
-safety play
-power breaking
-power stroking
-patterns & running out
-rhythm
-speed practicing
-mental toughness

On top of the 2 days of instruction, students will get bonuses such as tickets to the Challenge Match between Tony Robles and Mika Immonen after the Pool School and also a special Student Tournament with prizes from our sponsors.

Limited to the first 18 students (groups of 6 will rotate from each teacher every 2 1/2 hours)

14 hours of total instruction plus a 1 hour & 1/2 lunch break with the pros each day.

For joining or more information please contact Phil Muller at 540-420-1056 or Charlie Williams at 321-276-3967

eg8r
01-01-2003, 01:50 AM
Who will be covering...

1. How to miss out on the greatest tournament ever.
2. How to accept resignation from a player because you don't like them (never received a resignation letter).
3. some might be able to add some more

I have heard nothing but great things about Tony Robles, and I thought Mika was quite the gentleman when I met him in Orlando, the big question mark is Charlie "I am too good for the fans" Williams. Even in the pool hall in Orlando, Charlie seems to have the same attitude. I would hope he fixes this before someone pays that much money to learn from him.

Good luck everyone. I think it would be cool to have a Nick Varner or Earl Strickland as a coach also. One of these will be able to offer everyone including the self acclaimed "world class UPA" players in the art of lasting power. Nick has been around for ever and so has Earl, these guys know what it takes to win at this level for a long time. Oh well, maybe since this is the first run for these guys we will see what happens.

Eg8r

nAz
01-01-2003, 02:22 AM
@ eg8r bahahahahah

You know if they held this in NYC and kept it limited to 18 players with same hours or more i would pay the $400.
gotta learn something from these guys

Chris Cass
01-01-2003, 06:19 AM
Hi eg8r,

The attitude is extra. LOL BTW, the Koreandragon is Charlie. LOL

Regards,

C.C.~~good to be back... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Chris Cass
01-01-2003, 06:25 AM
Hi Charlie,

I think your post is not only well written but the offer and price is totally enticing. I hope you can make an exception for circumstances out of ones control and offer a rain check? I would like this myself. Thanks for posting it.

Regards,

C.C.

bigbro6060
01-01-2003, 06:27 AM
on the azbilliards forum there's been some heat on charlie when he posted this ad

What has he done which has put so many people offside ?

Chris Cass
01-01-2003, 07:24 AM
You got me Bro. All I know is playing and lessons are two things I seperate. What ever his attitude is? I consider is something he has to deal with. I don't know many young guys out there without somewhat of an attitude when it comes to pool. LOL I do also know a lot of boards find it insulting to sell their goods on the site. I personally don't mind a geniune offer once in awhile. It's spam I don't like and the $6.00 offers that drive me balistic. LOL That brought back painful memories.

Regards,

C.C.

01-01-2003, 07:42 AM
because $400/2 days is ridiculous. i think all three know how stupid this proposal is, and it is obvious bullsh*t because they know damn well that it is money wasted. i can only assume that they want to walk away with easy cash.

jjinfla
01-01-2003, 07:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote arnie:</font><hr> because $400/2 days is ridiculous. i think all three know how stupid this proposal is, and it is obvious bullsh*t because they know damn well that it is money wasted. i can only assume that they want to walk away with easy cash. <hr /></blockquote>

Can you blame them? The idea is great - but can they produce? People will pay to rub elbows with the champs and think they are part of the inside crowd. Only trouble with an "open" class is that you run into the problem of having students who play at different levels. I wouldn't want to be in with a group who are beginners, nor would a beginner want to be in a group of better players. I wonder if a lesson plan has been worked out and tried out? Jake

Ken
01-01-2003, 07:59 AM
The Little Dictator has had a long standing feud with Barry Behrman because Barry could not pay a few thousand dollars to some players in the US open due to the attack on the World Trade Center and some money being refunded to prepaid attendees who could not travel to the event. Charlie does not realize that the players would have lost at least a quarter million dollars if the event had been cancelled. It is my understanding that Barry has made good on most of the withheld prize money and intends to pay it all.

Charlie started the UPA in order to organize the pro players so he could use them in his fight with Barry. CW tried to get them all to boycott the 2001 US Open and thus alienated the vast majority of poolplayers and fans. A couple pros did boycott (take one guess who they were) but the Open was still a great success.

He talked a lot of members of the pool industry into giving him money for his organization and Charlie has squandered that money on a couple events where he barely got 30 participants. Most of those donors are now questioning the purpose of the UPAyours and are unlikely to continue to help the organization.

Give the Little Dictator $100 and you too can be a pro. Just be sure that you toe the line or else you might find out that your resignation has been accepted.
KenCT~~could give several more reasons

CarolNYC
01-01-2003, 08:29 AM
YOWSER,YOWSER,YOWSER
Oh my goodness,I have always been happy for people when good things happen to them,now, I will truly envy the 18 people who will attend this most awesome,intense and extreme training session-for those who are seriously interested in improving their game,I can only hope you will take the opportunity to get into this!I,as a student myself,can guarantee ,that, the knowledge ALONE you attain and then apply to your game ,will show immediate improvement!And please,any personnal issues let go-its a new year-Happy new year to all and good luck to the ones who get in!:):)Also,my best to these three gentlemen!:)
Carol~knows 3-2-1 and is sweating it being released!:)

Popcorn
01-01-2003, 09:11 AM
What credibility do these players have as instructors? The ability to play has nothing to do with the ability to teach. I can't tell you how many pro players I have seen giving lessons that were a complete waste of time. You have to know what you are doing. There is more to putting on a pool school, if that is your intention, then spaming news groups. I think the idea is a good one, although 18 seem like too many students for three instructors to give any real one on one help. I only say this because you are attempting to move into another area of the business, instructing. There is a difference between real instruction, and a fantasy camp. If anyone is really interested in that type of instruction, I think they would be better off clicking in the upper right hand corner of this web site for the Cue-U. They know what they are doing and they also pay for the advertising. You know kid, you got a lot of nerve.

silverbullet
01-01-2003, 09:13 AM
ww wants to go to this. This is in our home town and the place where I played pool for several years. Maybe this is what he needs to go to the next level .

I wonder how to verify that this is legit. Also what would happen to the money in the event that the class is not full.

This also does conflict with Brady's tournament the same weekend, so might have an influence.

blu

Brady_Behrman
01-01-2003, 09:18 AM
The school is the weekend prior to my event

silverbullet
01-01-2003, 09:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> What credibility do these players have as instructors? The ability to play has nothing to do with the ability to teach. I can't tell you how many pro players I have seen giving lessons that were a complete waste of time. You have to know what you are doing. There is more to putting on a pool school, if that is your intention, then spaming news groups. I think the idea is a good one, although 18 seem like too many students for three instructors to give any real one on one help. I only say this because you are attempting to move into another area of the business, instructing. There is a difference between real instruction, and a fantasy camp. If anyone is really interested in that type of instruction, I think they would be better off clicking in the upper right hand corner of this web site for the Cue-U. They know what they are doing and they also pay for the advertising. You know kid, you got a lot of nerve.

<hr /></blockquote>

Heard Tony is good and teaches regularly. Dont know about the other two.

bw

TomBrooklyn
01-01-2003, 09:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr>You know if they held this in NYC and kept it limited to 18 players with same hours or more i would pay the $400.<hr /></blockquote>I can arrange it Naz, subject to some small variables one way or the other, if some people are interested.

silverbullet
01-01-2003, 09:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr>You know if they held this in NYC and kept it limited to 18 players with same hours or more i would pay the $400.<hr /></blockquote>I can arrange it Naz if enough people are interested. <hr /></blockquote>

ww said if a few ccbers want to come to this and do not have hotel money, they can stay at his parents' lake house with him at no charge.

blu

Popcorn
01-01-2003, 09:47 AM
Did you read his post? The 6 students will rotate every 2 1/2 hours and each teacher has a laundry list of things they are going to be teaching. You can't learn anything like that. You would be lucky to learn anything that would stick.

silverbullet
01-01-2003, 10:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> What credibility do these players have as instructors? The ability to play has nothing to do with the ability to teach. I can't tell you how many pro players I have seen giving lessons that were a complete waste of time. You have to know what you are doing. There is more to putting on a pool school, if that is your intention, then spaming news groups. I think the idea is a good one, although 18 seem like too many students for three instructors to give any real one on one help. I only say this because you are attempting to move into another area of the business, instructing. There is a difference between real instruction, and a fantasy camp. If anyone is really interested in that type of instruction, I think they would be better off clicking in the upper right hand corner of this web site for the Cue-U. They know what they are doing and they also pay for the advertising. You know kid, you got a lot of nerve.

<hr /></blockquote>

Gosh this is negative!!!! I loved Randy's pool school and also the instuction I have gotten from Scott Lee. I would not take anything for how I benefitted from both of these experiences.

But I am always wanting to learn. If I were an apa intermediate-7, and I had the money, I would love this opportunity.

I think that it is wonderful that these three are offering their professional tips at such a reasonable price.

enuff said.

blu

Tom_In_Cincy
01-01-2003, 10:12 AM
SilverBullet,

What a wonderful and kind offer, you and WW are very generous by offering this to the posters of CCB..

Happy New Year

silverbullet
01-01-2003, 10:20 AM
Happy New Year to you too, Tom and to all ccbers.

Blu

Popcorn
01-01-2003, 11:07 AM
Why so quick to jump on the bandwagon? It is 14 hours of instruction. That is around $30.00 an hour for an instructor you have to share with 5 other people in your group with not very much time, that is not cheap. I am not being negative, but don't you think you should ask some questions before you begin trying to organize a junket to go. You have no idea what it is all about?

Sid_Vicious
01-01-2003, 11:34 AM
That's too intensive for 2 days, but I believe most pool schools are too intensive and should be done in at least 2 if not 3 weekends, to be any bargain. As far as these players being instructors...they may all be useless in that regard. Strong players sometimes lack just what you need to teach, out of the box patience plus humbleness...sid

randyg
01-01-2003, 11:45 AM
Charlie: Count me in on the next one. Just too short of notice at this time. You should have no trouble filling the class. Good luck, keep us informed.....randyg

Tom_In_Cincy
01-01-2003, 12:04 PM
Let's see.. 18 students time $400 each = $7,200.00 divided by 3 = $2,400.00 per instructor.. if there is an even split.

I would probably think that CW is charging the other two instructors a promotion fee of $400 plus..

Qualified instructors? I've heard that Tony has a steady clinic in NY and is a very good instructor. CW and Mika I don't have a clue.

BUT (and this is a very important BUT) if you can learn one thing that will improve your game to the next level from any or one of these 3 instructors, what price would you pay for that bit of instruction?

Fred Agnir
01-01-2003, 01:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote koreandragon:</font><hr> Pro Pool School in Roanoke, VA
Jan 18-19
Guys &amp; Dolls Billiards

$400 a student (limited to first 18) <hr /></blockquote>
I think this sounds enticing. But, at 18 students with three instructors, it seems like a bad ratio.

The price is relatively low, IMO. If you're still reading this Charlie, have you done this before?

Fred

Fred Agnir
01-01-2003, 01:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Why so quick to jump on the bandwagon? It is 14 hours of instruction. That is around $30.00 an hour for an instructor you have to share with 5 other people in your group with not very much time, that is not cheap. I am not being negative, but don't you think you should ask some questions before you begin trying to organize a junket to go. You have no idea what it is all about?

<hr /></blockquote>
How much (or how little) are you willing to pay for instruction?

Fred

01-01-2003, 01:44 PM
i guess when you put it that way, "what the hell, let's give it a try, and see what falls" is a thought. i wouldn't call it an honest effort, but i'll bet they have convinced themselves that their fame is worth something. and if you say it long enough, you believe it. personally, i don't think it reflects well on any of them.

bigbro6060
01-01-2003, 01:47 PM
I feel this type of clinic would be most beneficial for players who are already very very good and have exhausted all their local instructors, books, videos etc etc

I'm sure there are a few hidden gems which will be picked up during the two days and for the right person, would be worth the money.

For an intermediate or beginner player, there would be too much to absorb in two days and the money would be wasted and better spent on weekly lessons with a local qualified instructor

01-01-2003, 01:48 PM
and just ask tony, "say, how do you,,,,,", and he'll probably tell you.

Popcorn
01-01-2003, 02:36 PM
The price is not really as much a factor as the quality of the instruction. I was responding to her comment that she thought it was cheap. $30.00 an hour is not cheap for that kind of instruction. It would be better to pay a little more for one on one instruction with a teacher that can address your specific needs. Some have said if they pick up one piece of information they think it would be worth it. The biggest problem is how do you mix the different levels of players and match the instruction to their needs? It can't be done. You have an advanced player standing there as the teacher is trying to show someone how to make a bridge. Or the teacher discussing position play while the beginner is totally lost. This is just a fantasy camp for people who want to meet some players. Take the $400. and go to the Derby tournament. They will have more fun, meet players and may even learn more. I am a big fan of instruction, but not deluding people. Seminars are often good. You get together maybe 30 Players who pay say $20 for a several hours with a teacher. It is a good days pay for the instructor and a lot can be picked up by the players and it is affordable. They usually cover specific topic. I have seen Grady do these and they can be great. If a poolroom is lucky enough to have a qualified instructor in their area, they can do one these every month or so. There are lots of ways to help players learn the game without sticking them up or deceiving them.

Barbara
01-01-2003, 05:25 PM
I agree with you about the 6:1 ratio - students to instructor.

I remember RandyG apologizing at one time at "Pool School in CT" that there was a 4:1 ratio and he prefers 3 or 2 to 1 ratio, students to instructors.

Yeah, I hope CW knows what he's doing. There's going to be a pretty big parity in student expertise.

Barbara~~~still going through Pool School's materials!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fred Agnir
01-01-2003, 05:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> The price is not really as much a factor as the quality of the instruction. I was responding to her comment that she thought it was cheap. $30.00 an hour is not cheap for that kind of instruction. It would be better to pay a little more for one on one instruction with a teacher that can address your specific needs. Some have said if they pick up one piece of information they think it would be worth it. The biggest problem is how do you mix the different levels of players and match the instruction to their needs? It can't be done. You have an advanced player standing there as the teacher is trying to show someone how to make a bridge. Or the teacher discussing position play while the beginner is totally lost. This is just a fantasy camp for people who want to meet some players. Take the $400. and go to the Derby tournament. They will have more fun, meet players and may even learn more. I am a big fan of instruction, but not deluding people. Seminars are often good. You get together maybe 30 Players who pay say $20 for a several hours with a teacher. It is a good days pay for the instructor and a lot can be picked up by the players and it is affordable. They usually cover specific topic. I have seen Grady do these and they can be great. If a poolroom is lucky enough to have a qualified instructor in their area, they can do one these every month or so. There are lots of ways to help players learn the game without sticking them up or deceiving them.

<hr /></blockquote>

These are all good points. But, for arguments sake, let's say you are looking for instructional from a professional player in a class atmosphere for whatever reasons, one of which may be that a one-on-one session may be a bit too much pressure on an individual. Everyone has there own individual needs and wants. Given that starting point, you have the choice of $2700 for Pool School in Paradise
or this particular Charlie Williams offering at $400. From that standpoint, it's pretty cheap for a player from the DelMarVa area.

As far as the quality of instruction goes, I think we all might just be guessing at their ability, except for those who have actually taken lessons from them. Although I agree that the best players don't necessarily make the best teachers (and vice versa) that idea is not set in stone and really shouldn't be used as an argument against their ability as teachers without knowing one way or the other. CarolNYC has been very high on Tony Robles' style of teaching, so at the very least, you've got him (and her review).

IMHO, if someone in or near the Delmarva area can swing the $400, it all sounds well worth it.

Fred

silverbullet
01-01-2003, 05:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bigbro6060:</font><hr>
I feel this type of clinic would be most beneficial for players who are already very very good and have exhausted all their local instructors, books, videos etc etc

I'm sure there are a few hidden gems which will be picked up during the two days and for the right person, would be worth the money.

For an intermediate or beginner player, there would be too much to absorb in two days and the money would be wasted and better spent on weekly lessons with a local qualified instructor <hr /></blockquote>

WW is the one taking the class. It seemed that this class is geared more to people who are a little more advanced than I am right now.

Also, I am already committed instructor wise through summer. If the creeks dont rise, scott will be here soon and I have pool school refresher this summer with randy.

blu

Vagabond
01-01-2003, 07:02 PM
Howdy Mr.Korean Dragan,
During the Mosconi cup u tried to explain what happened between the Americans and the Europians (regards their celebration after their win in the initial matches).Your comments were vague and disjointed.Your comments raised more questions in my mind.Teachers are born and not made.They have ability to make even dumb guy like me understand the subject matter real well.Do u have that ability?I like to hear from u.cheers
Vagabond /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Bob C
01-01-2003, 07:41 PM
Copied and pasted directly from the "Board Rules":

"Participants may not use the Forums to post or transmit advertisements or commercial solicitations of any kind."

I have seen some regular posters attacked when they have mentioned a cue for sale or services for hire. This post is blatantly solicitous.

Bob C

eg8r
01-01-2003, 08:07 PM
Oh, I definitely know that is Charlie. I spent a lot of time in Pro Billiards in Orlando and I have a very clear perspective on the type of person Charlie has become. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

Jon from MN
01-01-2003, 08:22 PM
I have paid 350 for 6 hour session there were two students 1 master instructor a good deal.I charge 200 now for 6 hours 1 on 1 and I include vidios and a booklet to chart there progress. also a good deal but I am not certified. Personally I think they are in the ballpark but 18 seems to be to many students. I personally think 3 students to 1 instructor is more in line. jmo Jon from MN

eg8r
01-01-2003, 08:31 PM
I have no idea what bahahaha means but I guess that does not matter. I did not tell you to pay or not to pay. I was just stating that there might be some other areas that they might be able to cover a little better. In case you did not read that part...forget go back and read yourself. I had nothing bad to say about Mika or Tony both fine people from what I have heard/met. Maybe I can question their allegiance to the almighty Charlie, but that would be it. I actually believe their allegiance is towards the goals of the UPA, the problem is Charlie has some say in it and I personally am not a fan of his.

Pay your money, you earn it, you spend it. I never said I would not pay, however if I did run across some extra cash that needed to be spent unless it would be taken away, I would skip Charlies part. I have seen enough of him, and I don't really think he is doing much for the sport.

Just to add a little more...Why does Charlie have to offer his school at such a bargain except to take the money from the hands of the REAL PROFESSIONALS and put it in his own pocket.

Maybe I am wrong in my assumptions but let me see...When you run a business there is more to it than just paying wages. Overhead is a huge factor and enough that I do not really need to dive any deeper for any discussion on this board. Charlie is comparing his fly by night tutor session to a full fledged school that has been operating for a while and has real, professional teachers/coaches running the sessions. This is crap. Charlie is just a guy that plays pool well, and so are the others. Can they teach or coach a person and help them along the way...YOU BETCHA. Are they teachers/coaches that have the knowledge and experience to help a person out over a two day period and actually make a dent in the ability of the student...I HARDLY DOUBT IT. At best they will be passing along the little things they have learned along the way. Please compare this to what you will get at a real Pool School and I am sure Charlie will fall short of the quality.

This is a gimmick...You might as well also buy a Flowbie off the TV and let a professional salesman show you how to cut your hair, and then tell everyone that you are getting your hair cut at a fraction of the price everyone elses pays at a salon.

Like I said it is your money. I would personally want to save the money and have a real instructor teach me the things that will help me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

eg8r

eg8r
01-01-2003, 08:34 PM
I will chime in and say NO.

He can however look at you like you are an idiot because you asked a question or better yet, questioned him. LOL

eg8r &lt;skeptical but waiting to see how it all pans out.

Barbara
01-01-2003, 08:41 PM
...the debate arises...

There are players out there that can teach champions to know what to do and there are champions out there that can't teach players what they know.

Barbara~~~Fran can teach!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

eg8r
01-01-2003, 08:44 PM
[ QUOTE ]
How much (or how little) are you willing to pay for instruction? <hr /></blockquote>
How much instruction are you going to get? If I am spending $30 an hour for some instruction, I would like more than an average of 10 mins per hour with the guy (6 people per group for 60 minutes). Now the cost is theoretically jumping to $180 per hour and I do not think they will give you your moneys worth. I did not read anywhere in the spam from Charlie that this school is for intermediate to advanced so I might be in a group of six with 2 beginners hogging up even more time. I been in groups like this and you never get the proper amount of time with the instructor.

eg8r

TomBrooklyn
01-01-2003, 09:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vagabond:</font><hr>Teachers are born and not made.<hr /></blockquote>Outside of being healthy and intellegent, what does genetics have to do with being good at teaching? What makes you think a person can be a good teacher unless they have learned the required skills. Why do you feel these skills can't be taught and learned? =Tb

Ralph S.
01-01-2003, 09:45 PM
It is not a question of dollar amount for the lessons, but the student-teacher ratio that I have the problem with. I personally would rather shell out a little more if necessary to obtain one on one instruction. And as far as rates go, Scott Lee has a damn good approach from the money to length of session aspect. I also echo the sentiment posted here about their instructing credentials wereas Sctt's are already proven as are some other A-list instructors on this board.
Ralph S.

Scott Lee
01-01-2003, 09:47 PM
Since Randyg chimed in, I will too! I think that the negative publicity around Charlie may be warranted. Take that away, and Tony Robles does have a student following, and I have heard good things about his instruction. These three are top players, and imo, the best thing is to sit back and see what happens. It is only a couple of weeks away, and it is doubtful that they will fill the "class". That means that the student to teacher ratio should be more in line. I have taught classes with as many as 50 students by myself. This is very difficult and requires a lot of time. Under circumstances where it was a semester class, with 2 hours per week for 17 weeks, the students came away with a lot of info, if they chose to practice what was taught. I also had written and skill tests 3 times each semester. It is also true that a student will frequently learn better under a one-to-one environment. No doubt someone who posts here will attend this class, and will review it for the rest of us. The success of this first one will determine whether or not they hold another. The money is probably not much of an issue for those who really want to do this. Look how many people WILLINGLY throw down $500+ for a cuestick, who can't run three balls consistently! LOL It may be money well spent, or money wasted...but let's give them the benefit of the doubt, and see what the students have to say afterwards. I know some folks in Roanoke, and will check to see if any of them are attending. You also have to understand that the $400 does not include expenses. It was VERY generous of Whitewolf to offer to put up other CCBrs! Tell you one thing...if they haven't thought of it yet, they should be planning to use videotape in this class.

Scott Lee

silverbullet
01-01-2003, 09:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vagabond:</font><hr>Teachers are born and not made.<hr /></blockquote>Outside of being healthy and intellegent, what does genetics have to do with being good at teaching? What makes you think a person can be a good teacher unless they have learned the required skills. Why do you feel these skills can't be taught and learned? =Tb <hr /></blockquote>

Good point Tom. Some of the best instructors I have known have learned a lot from lifes experiences and developed a passion for teaching others. I developed the ability to teach over a 15-20 year period and believe me, it was not an innate talent. It was due to believing in myself and believing I had something worthwhile to pass on. It was also due to acquiring some knowlege of human beings and how to teach them something new while building them up.

blu

cueball1950
01-01-2003, 10:45 PM
Oh well. I was not going to post a response to this posting cuz it definately violates the rules of the board. Then again this is Charlie Williams doing the posting and he does what he wants anyway. Of the 3 people that are going to be giving lessons the only one i would take lessons from is Tony Robles. In my opinion, the real gentleman of the Professional caliber. I have seen Charlies deliberate slow play and i have watched Mika Throw racks on the floor and then kick them across the poolroom. Last year in Quincy Mass. Remember, i posted about it when it happened. In my opinion Tony Robles outshines both of them. Yes Mika has a world championship and Charlie has won a major tournament (BCA) but i want to take lessons from a Gentleman. And if Tony had the time to devote more time to practice. He would win more big tournaments. Like another poster stated. Charlie tried to ruin the OPEN last year by trying to get players to boycott it. He even went as far as showing up and asking players in person not to play. I used to have the utmost respect for CW. But that has since vanished...... Scott Lee. When are you coming east to give lessons? lol You i could learn something from So let me know if you ever come east...................mike

eg8r
01-02-2003, 12:12 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Good point Tom. Some of the best instructors I have known have learned a lot from lifes experiences and developed a passion for teaching others. I developed the ability to teach over a 15-20 year period and believe me, it was not an innate talent. It was due to believing in myself and believing I had something worthwhile to pass on. It was also due to acquiring some knowlege of human beings and how to teach them something new while building them up. <hr /></blockquote>
I agree. I believe you can always go in one direction and not the other. A person maybe be a great player but not be able to teach worth a lick, whereas another person may not be as great a player but has the knowledge to help others to better their game. Fran is a great example of this. She is not the best player on the WPBA, but she is a great/excellent teacher. She can tear me apart playing 9 ball but maybe not Allison Fisher. Great teachers do not have to be great players to be a great teacher, however that does not go in the other direction. A great teacher will have to be a great player to be considered a great player. Confused?

I hear Tony is a great teacher, and CarolNYC talks quite highly about him a lot, and this is from her personal experience. I am eager to see how the others do. As Scott pointed out, WW is generous to offer lodging so that makes this more affordable to some so hopefully they will go and give a review.

eg8r

CarolNYC
01-02-2003, 05:21 AM
Good morning Fred and others,
I have read most of these posts-from my point of view,everyone on this board has knowledge,belongs to leagues and plays pool-that I have no doubt!Fred,I would stake my life on Tonys ability to teach and if you were to make a private appointment for one training session(single) with him,his schedule book is one of the most hectic Ive ever seen and you would be lucky if you were able to get it with in one weeks time,but knowing Tony, he'd make the time and fit you in somewhere-
The issues with money-I know in NY, the going rate is anywhere from 50.00-150.00 per hour!
The issue of whether or not they can teach-no, the question is whether or not you CAN LEARN-some people just REFUSE to listen,to change!
If you have NEVER picked up a pool cue in your life,I would say,this is not for you-I agree a total BEGINNER needs definitely one on one training-
I know Mika and Charlie on a sociable level and can say characteristically, they are gentlemen,kind,patient and friendly-maybe some have had negative PERSONNAL experiences,I dont know,but this is not a personnal issue.
As Tom said, if you absorb just one piece of info that improves your game,will it be worth it?YES!
As I originally posted,if you are SERIOUS(and I truly mean that) of improving your game,then go(of course based upon your finances)
All I can say is,if you are a player and can take some intense training,go for it-if it was held in NY,I would!
Good luck to anyone who attends!
Stay well and have a nice day!
Carol:)

bigbro6060
01-02-2003, 05:58 AM
gee there;s some big money for instruction being thrown around

I'm so happy i get lessons from one of the best players in Australia for free ! He's a good teacher too.

CarolNYC
01-02-2003, 08:10 AM
Hey there,
Thats wonderful-thats definitely a plus!:)
I'd like to add one more thing that is being said about this session:
Personally, I look at instructors like martial arts-they ALL have their own technique-here we have 3 champions together-(and Ive watched them and they DO NOT play exactly the same way-)-who have played in tournaments ,not for 100's but for anywhere from 50 grand to 150 grand,all on a pool game-(thats more than starting pay for a NYC police officer!)To have the opportunity to learn a little from each one of them is what I find awesome!Maybe ones technique does not suit you,but the other ones does! You never know!Also, whatever anyone has seen while someone is playing a tournament is a whole different story-I for one,had severe problems playing a friend-but now, when it comes to game time,my bestfriend is no longer my friend,she is an opponent and Im playing the table and dont even know her!So, with all that said, these three champions are getting together to help!
Carol~still sweating the 3-2-1!:):):)-and just want to add that in Miami, I learned an awesome shot from Voodoo-in pool, there is ALWAYS something to learn!

Sid_Vicious
01-02-2003, 09:34 AM
eg8r...Compound all that you said with the fact about the class size, EIGHTEEN. That makes $400 a pop pretty darn lucrative. You can't adequately provide the individual time to 18, even if these actually were excellent teachers. Hell, 6 students gets to be a jam up if there is a student or two with many curious question, and that should be your right (as a paying customer) to personalize with individual questions...sid

Popcorn
01-02-2003, 10:27 AM
From reading many of the posts here and on other forums where he has posted this. It goes to show you that the pool is a small subculture, it does not pay to piss people off. Most are not even willing to give him the benefit of the doubt because of his past actions. If he wants to exist in the pool world for any period of time he better learn how to treat people, because there is no where else to go, this is it. His pool school just comes off as meaningless money making scam, not something he is trying to build for a long term benefit to the industry. Charlie is already damaged good in the eyes of the pool playing public. The first reaction to his pool school was negative based on him and nothing else. He is going to have to let actions speak louder the words if he is to be trusted. Even if the first couple of sessions lose money and don't get a turnout. He better not cancel them if he really wants to build anything. I think one of the biggest problems with pool players is they are short sighted. You have commented several times how well you do financially, I am sure you did not get where you are over night. Most pool players would have found an excuse to quit and failed. I guess my point is, Charlie so far has exhibited the basic pool player mentality. Where are the Jimmy Caras's of today? You can be a pool player without being a creep.

Fran Crimi
01-02-2003, 10:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vagabond:</font><hr>Teachers are born and not made.<hr /></blockquote>Outside of being healthy and intellegent, what does genetics have to do with being good at teaching? What makes you think a person can be a good teacher unless they have learned the required skills. Why do you feel these skills can't be taught and learned? =Tb <hr /></blockquote>


Tom, I'm going to have to agree with Vagabond, but only to the extent that GREAT teachers are born and not made (which is what I think he's referring to). It's the same with any profession or art form. There are people who can learn a craft and do fairly well with it...and there are those that have that something special that makes them shine above the others. And if you ask those teachers, or players, or athletes, or lawyers how they can do what they do so well, they'll tell you it's just in them, it's not something they learned from a book a course or even from life. If you look hard enough, you can see it in them when they're kids. It's just there.

As with all professions, most teachers are not great teachers. Greatness is reserved for a few. But I truly believe there is something that can be learned from anyone who excels at what they do. These three guys are great players, and while someone may not want to pick a particular one for a lifetime coach, I can't see how a player could possibly walk away from a weekend with them without knowing a lot more than they did before.

Fran

Scott Lee
01-02-2003, 10:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> You have commented several times how well you do financially, I am sure you did not get where you are over night. Most pool players would have found an excuse to quit and failed. I guess my point is, Charlie so far has exhibited the basic pool player mentality. Where are the Jimmy Caras's of today? You can be a pool player without being a creep. <hr /></blockquote>

Popcorn...You're absolutely right! LOL I have spent the last 23 years constantly perfecting and improving my teaching techniques, and have enjoyed the positive influences of several other recognized instructors, not the least of which, has been my mentor, Jerry Briesath. Since I began touring with my "Traveling College of Billiard Knowledge" show in 1995, after taking over Jack White's tour, I have continued to polish it and change little bits and pieces. I will NEVER quit learning new things about this fantastic game, and my love of sharing it with others will last my lifetime, at least! I sure agree with your last line! LOL

Scott Lee

Scott Lee
01-02-2003, 10:59 AM
Fran...I think you'll agree with me, that three prerequisites for being ANY kind of decent teacher are, in no particular order: the skill to demonstrate what you're trying to teach, the communication skills necessary to say the words several different ways, and EXTREME patience.

LOTS of people exhibit the skills necessary...far fewer have the communication skills, and even LESS have TONS of patience. The last two, imo, for the most successful teachers, are skills learned as children, and carried on into adult life. Patience, in particular, can be learned at a VERY young age...however many people NEVER learn it! LOL

Scott Lee

Vagabond
01-02-2003, 11:01 AM
Howdy Tom,
It can be learned only by a selected few.Yes,one needs to have knowledge and skill in the field one wants to teach.To me,it is a primary requisite.To be a good teacher one needs to have the ability to explain his or her thoughts to others in an understandable manner which ,by the way reqires ability to speak in simple English.one also needs to have ability to simpify( for the purpose of explaining to lay audience or to novice) a complex concept.Chris of NC used to explain step by step, various concepts in a very methodical and detailed manner and ofcourse in simple English.After I posted the message I saw the comments of my friends&amp; respectable teachers( Fran and Scott Lee).Yes Fran,I was taling about good teachers but not all the teachers andI should have been more specific.By the way to be a good teacher one should be willing to individualize ( tailor it to the needs of the student) the lessons if and when possible.cheers

vagabond /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Scott Lee
01-02-2003, 11:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> You can't adequately provide the individual time to 18, even if these actually were excellent teachers. Hell, 6 students gets to be a jam up if there is a student or two with many curious question, and that should be your right (as a paying customer) to personalize with individual questions...sid <hr /></blockquote>

sid...I disagree here! It would definitely depend on the communication skills of the teacher. I have, many times, taught classes with this many students, and had them come away pleased with what they had learned. One key is to have enough time to devote to it...tough to do in a couple of hours, but a full day works well. Whether or not these three can be effective or not is as yet unknown.

Scott

Sid_Vicious
01-02-2003, 11:29 AM
Let me recant a story. I once bought my girlfriend a ticket to pool school, her being highly motivated with the game but rather "green" in experience. She is one of those people who seriously follow the rule "there's no dumb questions." At the end of the school she told me that it was inferred(if not exactly stated) that she was slowing up the rest of the class and should consider taking a more elementary school. Now I call that treatment entirely out of line and downright rude, and as much as I can conclude, treatment dished out simply because of the class size and time agenda. My feelings are that EVERY student should have ALL their questions and concerns personally responded to, not smoozed over with fast talk. I felt darn bad for the woman being treated like that, and I will probably never darken the doors of a school because of it. Your 1-on-1 format of teaching is one I'd do sometime Scott, but schools simply don't focus enough(imo.)

Sorry, I still think that this class size issue is a key in-greed-ient here...sid

Scott Lee
01-02-2003, 11:46 AM
sid...Seems like your friend got the short shrift! But I still say it is the TEACHER, not the class size...within certain limitations. Perhaps sometime I will have a larger class (15+) in the DFW area, and you can audit it, and see for yourself! As far as you and me getting together...I'm sure that will happen too! I sure had fun just playing with you guys last summer!

Scott

Sid_Vicious
01-02-2003, 11:55 AM
That would be fun, and depending on the ol' bank account a good time to grab some of your private lessons, assuming there'd be adequate time in your schedule after school hours. Money and time, they always seem to crop up together...sid

Alfie
01-02-2003, 12:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> She is one of those people who seriously follow the rule "there's no dumb questions." <hr /></blockquote> And you must believe "there are no dumb girlfriends."

- sorry, couldn't resist :-)

Sid_Vicious
01-02-2003, 12:45 PM
I couldn't help passing this tidbit of info along: sid

$400.00 per student times 18 = $7200.00 divided by 3 = $2400.00 each instructor... divided by 14 hours = $170.00 per hour per instructor.

14 hours total instruction divided by 6 students per group = 2.4 hours each of 1 on 1 instruction.

2.4 hours of instruction for $400.00 bucks

Ross
01-02-2003, 12:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> ...Only trouble with an "open" class is that you run into the problem of having students who play at different levels. I wouldn't want to be in with a group who are beginners, nor would a beginner want to be in a group of better players. I wonder if a lesson plan has been worked out and tried out? Jake <hr /></blockquote>

Jake, good point. Experienced players have very different questions and instructional needs than do beginners. Hopefully Charlie, Mika, and Tony will realize this and split the 18 students into the 3 groups of 6 based on ability and experience. This would lead to less variation in ability within each group.

Popcorn
01-02-2003, 12:55 PM
Come on, you can't just leave us hanging like that. Pull up the wei table and show us the shot.

CarolNYC
01-02-2003, 05:03 PM
START(
%HG4[0%Is1T8%PH8Z9%Up4K5%VI3Z8%WU4D0%XC5Y4%Yr7R5%ZV0C4%[D2C9
%\i1[4%]j2[1%^s2R9%eD0a7%f7%g7%_O8D9%`K4S0%aE1Z8%bE7Z8%cG7R0
%dI6L9
)END
I hope it came up correct-this is the only table I could bring up without the snow-I cant get rid of the snow-UGH!
It should be 8,cueball frozen-come straight down with cuestick into cueball,pocket eight in corner and cueball draws down table for position on the 9-this may be an easy shot for you,but it took me quite a few tries before I could do it,Oh,ignore all lines except line of cueball!
Carol~Voodoo does it too easy!:):):):)

Scott Lee
01-02-2003, 05:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cueball1950:</font><hr> Scott Lee. When are you coming east to give lessons? lol You i could learn something from So let me know if you ever come east...................mike <hr /></blockquote>

Mike...I'll be up in NY and New England late Feb, or early March. See you then. Email me for details.

Scott Lee

Fran Crimi
01-02-2003, 06:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Fran...I think you'll agree with me, that three prerequisites for being ANY kind of decent teacher are, in no particular order: the skill to demonstrate what you're trying to teach, the communication skills necessary to say the words several different ways, and EXTREME patience.

LOTS of people exhibit the skills necessary...far fewer have the communication skills, and even LESS have TONS of patience. The last two, imo, for the most successful teachers, are skills learned as children, and carried on into adult life. Patience, in particular, can be learned at a VERY young age...however many people NEVER learn it! LOL

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>



Yup. I agree, Scott. Also, it wouldn't hurt to have a little clairvoyance and mind-reading skills. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Fran

jjinfla
01-02-2003, 08:21 PM
[ QUOTE ]

Also, I am already committed instructor wise through summer. If the creeks dont rise, scott will be here soon and I have pool school refresher this summer with randy.

blu <hr /></blockquote> Does this mean that you have attended a pool school already? And do I remember you stating that you are an APA SL2? Does not say much for that pool school. Jake

Rod
01-02-2003, 08:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> I couldn't help passing this tidbit of info along: sid

$400.00 per student times 18 = $7200.00 divided by 3 = $2400.00 each instructor... divided by 14 hours = $170.00 per hour per instructor.

14 hours total instruction divided by 6 students per group = 2.4 hours each of 1 on 1 instruction.

2.4 hours of instruction for $400.00 bucks


<hr /></blockquote>

Well of course you get to watch or drill with others during this time. Agreed, It still is very expensive. If the people attending really feel that they got their moneys worth then I guess that is all that matters.

jjinfla
01-02-2003, 08:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> I couldn't help passing this tidbit of info along: sid

$400.00 per student times 18 = $7200.00 divided by 3 = $2400.00 each instructor... divided by 14 hours = $170.00 per hour per instructor.

14 hours total instruction divided by 6 students per group = 2.4 hours each of 1 on 1 instruction.

2.4 hours of instruction for $400.00 bucks

<hr /></blockquote>

Then too, one must consider how many pool tables are going to be used during these sessions. Will there only be one table for each group of 6? Will the three groups be all in the same room where you will be able to hear what the other instructors are saying or demonstrating? Will there be a lot of smoke? Then how many people have the abliity to play/concentrate for 7 hours? Most people only last a couple hours during league night, and most of that is sitting. I personally prefer a one or two hour session, but unfortunately there are no quality instructors around here. Ideally for me would be a one or two hour session every couple weeks. That way I don't get overloaded at one time and I have a couple weeks to practice what I have learned. Today I had a two hour lesson and it only cost me $15. Played a race to 5 for $5. Won one race. What did I learn? That I still am not good enought to play with the big boys at Fat Cats and I should stay off tight pocket tables. LOL. Jake~~~but I still think the concept of the pool school is a good idea as long as the instructors really try and make sure the students feel they are getting their money's worth. One more thing. Will Charlie put the money in an escrow account in case the class is cancelled? Just couldn't resist that shot.

01-02-2003, 10:36 PM
I don't want to start out too negatively with this Pro Pool School concept, because those three players are at least getting proactive about interfacing with the public. But you raise some excellent points. The very best teachers and the very best players have historically been two separate groups (which is not to say that they can't teach).

Briesath, and Sailor Stellman, were both regional-class players in an era where the tournament staple was 14.1. Hal Mix couldn't play at all. Scott Lee doesn't play much better than I do; I really don't know how good a player The Monk is, but it's fair to assume that if he were tournament-caliber, you'd have heard about him in that regard before now.

As to their proposed rates, Briesath used to charge about that much, but the price included your hotel bill (but not your food). I don't think $400 is out of line for two days of quality, one-on-one instruction - if they can indeed provide it. GF

Ken
01-02-2003, 11:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote GF_:</font><hr> I don't think $400 is out of line for two days of quality, one-on-one instruction GF <hr /></blockquote>

I agree completely. However, what this ad promises is two days of one-on-six instruction.
KenCT

CarolNYC
01-03-2003, 04:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> ...the debate arises...

There are players out there that can teach champions to know what to do and there are champions out there that can't teach players what they know.

Barbara~~~Fran can teach!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Hey Barb,
NOW THATS A FACT"Fran can teach" -and why, she is a MASTER-and thats all there is to it-you know ,that she can look at you and within 5 minutes access?(hope thats the word)you!And I know,certain pro's, teaching ,have called upon her for her help, because they couldnt do that!From the very Beginners level to certifying teachers,how strong is that!
Carol~absolutely blessed!

SteveFromNY
01-03-2003, 08:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote koreandragon:</font><hr> Pro Pool School in Roanoke, VA
Jan 18-19
Guys &amp; Dolls Billiards

$400 a student (limited to first 18)

Imagine getting instruction from 3 world class UPA professionals for 2 full intense days! Because of the help of industry sponsors the school is available at 1/4 of the normal costs!

If you want to play like the pros you have to get into their heads and think like they do.

You must learn their every move for every situation. Learn what to do when there is no shot. Analyze and execute like the pros. And of course practice and prepare like the pros do.

Here's your chance! Our instructors are not only great teachers but world class top ranked professionals.

The Instructors:

Mika Immonen- 2001 World Champion and recently won the Mosconi Cup with Team Europe on ESPN. Also defeated Efren Reyes for the Philippines Invitational this past November.
UPA Ranking: Top 10

Mika will be covering such subjects as :
-shot making
-jump shots
-banking
-kicking
-patterns &amp; running out
-finesse shots
-cut breaking
-physical conditioning and preparation
-mental discipline

Tony Robles- Just recently finished 2nd at the Predator UPA Pro Tour Championship and also finished 2nd at the BCA Open on ESPN earlier this year taking down top names like Archer, Varner, Hall, and Deuel. One of the best straight pool players in the world with a high 267 ball run and is tied for the US Open Straight Pool High Run record of 150 balls. Also 2 time Sportsman of the Year.
UPA Ranking: Top 20

Tony will cover such topics like:
-fundamental techniques
-position play
-cue ball control(Tony's deadly accurate 3-2-1 system)
-kicking
-finesse shots
-patterns and running out
-How to practice
-mental attitude

Charlie Williams- 2002 BCA Open Champion as shown on ESPN. 2001 US Mosconi Cup Winner. 2001 Turning Stone Invitational and 2x Florida Tour Player of the Year with credential wins over such names as Parica, Hall, Strickland and Rempe.

Charlie will cover areas such as:
-shot making
-safety play
-power breaking
-power stroking
-patterns &amp; running out
-rhythm
-speed practicing
-mental toughness

On top of the 2 days of instruction, students will get bonuses such as tickets to the Challenge Match between Tony Robles and Mika Immonen after the Pool School and also a special Student Tournament with prizes from our sponsors.

Limited to the first 18 students (groups of 6 will rotate from each teacher every 2 1/2 hours)

14 hours of total instruction plus a 1 hour &amp; 1/2 lunch break with the pros each day.

For joining or more information please contact Phil Muller at 540-420-1056 or Charlie Williams at 321-276-3967

<hr /></blockquote>Tony is definately a great teacher. I shoot at the corner billiards 8 and 9-ball league and have seen him pull some amazing runs in his straight matches. Just had my second lesson with him yesterday and I'm starting to play better, run out, and break incredibly stronger.....He even showed me how he missed his 268th shot which was an easy combo with the table wide open!

jjinfla
01-03-2003, 08:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> ... she can look at you and within 5 minutes access?(hope thats the word)you!Carol~absolutely blessed! <hr /></blockquote>
So tell us Carol, just how often do you let Fran access you?
Seriously though, I don't understand why people think that pool instructors have to be world champions; or that world champions make good instructors. Instructors just have to be knowledgeable in their field, be able evaluate the student and then be able to impart their knowledge to the student in a way that the student can learn and improve. Then when the student learns all he can from an instructor it is time to move on to a better instructor, or one with more knowledge. Jake

01-03-2003, 10:50 AM
If you want to know what kind of player the monk
is just check out his videos,you will see him run
rack after rack after rack in nine ball and straight pool
way more that what i can do right now..lol

cheesemouse
01-03-2003, 11:06 AM
Thank god for video editing, huh???

Fred Agnir
01-03-2003, 12:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hock1:</font><hr> If you want to know what kind of player the monk
is just check out his videos,you will see him run
rack after rack after rack in nine ball and straight pool
way more that what i can do right now..lol <hr /></blockquote>

Hmmm... call me skeptical, but I've played Tim, and although he's a solid amateur player, I don't recall him ever running rack after rack after rack.

Fred

Wally_in_Cincy
01-03-2003, 01:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>
Hmmm... call me skeptical, but I've played Tim, and although he's a solid amateur player, I don't recall him ever running rack after rack after rack.
Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Ah the wonders of editing. Mike Sigel knows about editing I would guess, judging by his "Runout Series".

I wonder if Jim Rempe's "How to Run a Hundred Balls" was edited. If so you can't tell it.

01-03-2003, 03:07 PM
Isn't the Monk named Warren Costanza?

CarolNYC
01-04-2003, 04:35 AM
Good morning Jake,
I absolutely agree with you that a CHAMPION does not make an instructor!
To answer your question, at this point, there is no more evaluation,we are at an advanced level of sharpening skills!When we play, we play hard!But ,should I fall back into a bad habit"jumping up'(which was so severe with me,ugh!) she will say"jumped up!"There is just SO much to learn in this game, its overwhelming at times!I mean, some days "I just cant make a ball""being in that rut"-(which Im sure we've all been)and you MUST remain positive!Unbelievable!
I totally agree with what you said about instructors,also, the STUDENT must do their part,ya know what I mean?
Like elementary school, the teacher tells you what to do, you go home and do your HOMEWORK!
Have a nice day!
Carol:)

CarolNYC
01-04-2003, 07:22 AM
Alright,Im back from walking my pug his mile and getting a good blast of 30 degree weather,ha ha ha ha
Hey Jake,
When I said"no more evaluation" I was pertaining to initial, so, my answer is,Im evaluated depending on what skill I was taught,if I accomplished that skill,we may play to see "what Ive got"-if Im taught a new skill, then evaluated again and so on and so on, so,its a never-ending pattern!
Hope that helped to answer more clearly!:)
Carol~hopes to be evaluated CONSTANTLY!:):):):):)

jjinfla
01-04-2003, 09:05 AM
Hi Carol, I was just teasing you, I'm sure you know that. I think you are fortunate to be able to play and receive lessons from Fran. No matter how good a person gets there is always room for improvement and evaluation. The rule of thumb in college was 3 hours of study time for every hour of classroom time. I am sure that each and every time you get a lesson from Fran you can learn enough so that you will have to spend a week practicing it. The instructor can only teach a student what the student has the ability to learn. Being able to know the student is what, to me, makes a good instructor. Fundamentals, fundamentals and more fundamentals have to be mastered before gong on to higher concepts. And it pays to have a good memory in this game, otherwise one is doomed to re-learning the material over and over. I wish we had some instructors around here. Ray Martin teaches but he is in Tampa 100 miles away. Varner and Williams and sigel are in Orlando but that is 75 miles and who can afford Sigel? And I don't know if Charlie or Varner teach. But for me lessons would only be for my own self satisfaction and improvement, pleasure, enjoyment. How expensive is Fran? And don't tell me you and her play for fun. That would really make me jealous. Jake

Fran Crimi
01-04-2003, 12:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> How expensive is Fran? And don't tell me you and her play for fun. That would really make me jealous. Jake <hr /></blockquote>


I'll answer that question for you, Jake. I never charge close friends and family. Carol, Jim and the kids are like family to me. They have free lessons for life. Yes, Carol and I play for fun too.

Fran

The Rhino Chaser
01-04-2003, 01:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Nobody_Knows:</font><hr> Isn't the Monk named Warren Costanza? <hr /></blockquote> Yes, you are correct. Warren Costanza was a player who went by the Monk. The instructor the Monk is Tim Miller(I think the last name is correct)two differnt people.

silverbullet
01-04-2003, 02:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr>
&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;

Also, I am already committed instructor wise through summer. If the creeks dont rise, scott will be here soon and I have pool school refresher this summer with randy.

blu <hr /></blockquote> Does this mean that you have attended a pool school already? And do I remember you stating that you are an APA SL2? Does not say much for that pool school. Jake <hr /></blockquote>

You have two choices: go to the school or stay home and throw stones and never know what you missed.

blu

Rod
01-04-2003, 03:25 PM
Boy I'll say one thing, one little post sure gives you guys a lot of air time. Sounds expensive to me, be sure you give them their moneys worth.

DEADSTOKE32
01-04-2003, 05:53 PM
Ok now the only person i would take a lesson for out of all of these guy would be TONY ROBLES.All the people that i know that have taken lessons from Tony learned a lot . Hell right be 4 i move down south i played Tony. During the match he was given me lessons on what 2 do and how to play the better shot.I lost but i learned a lot that day and still rember and still do in my game now .So my true feeling is Mika &amp; Williams .I realy wouldn't care to learn from them .Sorry Mika .And Charlie i will not go there..My next vacation i'll go NYC and have a 1 on 1 with Tony.It's cheeper...And u take in more 1 on 1.Then in a group...
But good luck 2 all who are going...Tell how it went.. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Chris Cass
01-04-2003, 08:52 PM
I hope I apply? I wish I knew that the last time we met. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,

C.C.~~friend and close family and fan... /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

jjinfla
01-04-2003, 09:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>
I'll answer that question for you, Jake. I never charge close friends and family. Carol, Jim and the kids are like family to me. They have free lessons for life. Yes, Carol and I play for fun too.
Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Geez, some people have all the luck. It is nice to have friends in high places. But I sorta suspected that anyway. Jake

jjinfla
01-04-2003, 09:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DEADSTOKE32:</font><hr> Ok now the only person i would take a lesson for out of all of these guy would be TONY ROBLES.All the people that i know that have taken lessons from Tony learned a lot . <hr /></blockquote>

I heard tonight that Tony and Mika have a pool school in New York, or wherever it is they live, and that they asked Charlie to go in with them on this venture. If that is true and Tony is running it then it might lend more credibility to the school. At least it won't be a new venture for all of them. Jake

Fran Crimi
01-04-2003, 10:02 PM
You're too funny, Chris. I keep two important lists. You, Heide and Carol are all on the good list. But you don't need lessons (I know you're joking about that).I watched you play....you're strong. I wish you could find a tournament that's not a grueling drive, where you don't have to play your heart out for 12 hours straight just to break even for the trip. Does that exist anywhere? Probably not, eh?

Fran ~~ anyone on the bad list pays triple. Hahahaha!

nAz
01-04-2003, 10:23 PM
hey Fran can i get on that list /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Chris Cass
01-04-2003, 10:49 PM
Hi Fran,

You know how to make me feel all warm and fuzzy.

Thanks, Your Friend,

Chris~~I need lessons alright but you couldn't be anymore right about the tourneys I end up in. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Voodoo Daddy
01-05-2003, 07:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote GF_:</font><hr> Briesath, and Sailor Stellman, were both regional-class players in an era where the tournament staple was 14.1. Hal Mix couldn't play at all. Scott Lee doesn't play much better than I do; I really don't know how good a player The Monk is, but it's fair to assume that if he were tournament-caliber, you'd have heard about him in that regard before now. GF <hr /></blockquote>

I'm interested to know why you didnt mention Fran. I had the priviledge of playing with and sweating her match's at the womans nationals in December. Firstly, one cannot measure a players ability by a single race to 7, 9 or 11...or their finish's in tournaments. Saying that, I will mention that Frans knowledge is deep to the core of her soul. She has knowledge passed down by world champions and has the ability to use it/teach it. I played with Fran before the womans nationals and her game became stronger as the session got longer...making her somewhat of a marathon player. Folks, the woamn can flat run out and anyone that doesnt believe me can make arrangements to play her 6-8 hour sessions to find out for themselves. I for one am a 'lil tired not seeing her get the credit she deserves.

Fred Agnir
01-05-2003, 09:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Nobody_Knows:</font><hr> Isn't the Monk named Warren Costanza? <hr /></blockquote>
The player that most poolplayers know as "The Monk" is Warren Costanza. The player most people know as the instructor from the book "Point The Way" as well as the various books and his website is Tim Miller from NH/MA (he's on the border).

Fred

Fran Crimi
01-05-2003, 12:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Voodoo Daddy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote GF_:</font><hr> Briesath, and Sailor Stellman, were both regional-class players in an era where the tournament staple was 14.1. Hal Mix couldn't play at all. Scott Lee doesn't play much better than I do; I really don't know how good a player The Monk is, but it's fair to assume that if he were tournament-caliber, you'd have heard about him in that regard before now. GF <hr /></blockquote>

I'm interested to know why you didnt mention Fran. I had the priviledge of playing with and sweating her match's at the womans nationals in December. Firstly, one cannot measure a players ability by a single race to 7, 9 or 11...or their finish's in tournaments. Saying that, I will mention that Frans knowledge is deep to the core of her soul. She has knowledge passed down by world champions and has the ability to use it/teach it. I played with Fran before the womans nationals and her game became stronger as the session got longer...making her somewhat of a marathon player. Folks, the woamn can flat run out and anyone that doesnt believe me can make arrangements to play her 6-8 hour sessions to find out for themselves. I for one am a 'lil tired not seeing her get the credit she deserves.
<hr /></blockquote>



Wow. Thanks Voodoo. I'm so glad we played those long sessions and you got to see the real me. Most people just see me play one set and they think I'm just an OK player. But I catch the zone after about the 2 1/2 hour mark. Gene Nagy says he can almost time it to his watch. Doesn't work well for tournaments, but it's a challenge I enjoy facing. And you helped me with some good suggestions that I'm working on... so we'll see.

But yeah...if someone makes it to that third hour with me and they miss....I'm out. (Ha! And I don't care what the layout is. I know I'm out.) And BTW, so is Voodoo!

Thanks again,
Fran

Vagabond
01-05-2003, 06:40 PM
I watched u play few times.I did not need more than 15 minutes to assess your capabilities with the stick.U are very methodical.Fundamentals and mechanics are very good.U have a very good break.I like to watch u any time.cheers
Vagabond

Fran Crimi
01-05-2003, 09:19 PM
You're too kind, Vagabond. Thanks. But you hit the nail on the head with your description of methodical. That's exactly what I was referring to. I can do methodical and survive, but the good stuff is when the zone kicks in and methodical disappears. IMO, that's when the fun begins and the CB starts to dance! I know you know what I'm talking about...


Cheers back to you,

Fran

silverbullet
01-06-2003, 09:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vagabond:</font><hr> I watched u play few times.I did not need more than 15 minutes to assess your capabilities with the stick.U are very methodical.Fundamentals and mechanics are very good.U have a very good break.I like to watch u any time.cheers
Vagabond <hr /></blockquote>

To be methodical and consistent is something I am hoping to become with good fundamentals as I get better. I have seen too many apa7s who play almost as good as an A player one night and an apa 2-3 another night. I look up to the players who are consistent and on their bad nights still have a decent game.

bw

Fred Agnir
01-06-2003, 09:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote silverbullet:</font><hr> I have seen too many apa7s who play almost as good as an A player one night and an apa 2-3 another night. I look up to the players who are consistent and on their bad nights still have a decent game.<hr /></blockquote>
An APA SL-7 better have a decent game even on their off days. Or else, they're not true SL-7's, IMO.

If anyone ever confuses my bad days as an SL-2 or SL-3, it's time for me to quit.

Fred

silverbullet
01-06-2003, 12:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote silverbullet:</font><hr> I have seen too many apa7s who play almost as good as an A player one night and an apa 2-3 another night. I look up to the players who are consistent and on their bad nights still have a decent game.<hr /></blockquote>

An APA SL-7 better have a decent game even on their off days. Or else, they're not true SL-7's, IMO.

If anyone ever confuses my bad days as an SL-2 or SL-3, it's time for me to quit.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks for letting me know. Maybe the ones here are getting promoted too fast or something, not the women though.

bw