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01-02-2003, 09:54 AM
I was playing at our team captains house (a friend of mine) last night, and a situation came up that I've never seen before.


He broke, and nothing fell. We are playing "open after the break" anyhow. So I didn't have a good shot, and the table was pretty messy, so I just hit a ball, and left him in the middle of the short rail since I didn't have a very good shot after the break.

He says "safety" and pockets the 7 ball in the corner on the opposite side of the table, and leaves the cueball on the other end of the table. The only shot I see is an off-angle solid-stripe combo, and since I believe it's still an open table, I shoot the combo hitting a solid first to pocket a stripe, and am about to continue when he says "Wait, I'm solids.. thats a foul!"

I said "Whoa, no.. the table is still open. You never established your group.." But he thinks that since he pocketed the 7 ball on a safety shot, that he has solids. I think it's still open, regardless, since he didn't pocket a called ball to establish his group before playing a safety and knocking in a ball.

So, if you call "safety" and make a ball you were intending to make on an open table, do you have that group of balls, or is it still open table? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

01-02-2003, 10:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Seattle-kid:</font><hr> I was playing at our team captains house (a friend of mine) last night, and a situation came up that I've never seen before.


He broke, and nothing fell. We are playing "open after the break" anyhow. So I didn't have a good shot, and the table was pretty messy, so I just hit a ball, and left him in the middle of the short rail since I didn't have a very good shot after the break.

He says "safety" and pockets the 7 ball in the corner on the opposite side of the table, and leaves the cueball on the other end of the table. The only shot I see is an off-angle solid-stripe combo, and since I believe it's still an open table, I shoot the combo hitting a solid first to pocket a stripe, and am about to continue when he says "Wait, I'm solids.. thats a foul!"

I said "Whoa, no.. the table is still open. You never established your group.." But he thinks that since he pocketed the 7 ball on a safety shot, that he has solids. I think it's still open, regardless, since he didn't pocket a called ball to establish his group before playing a safety and knocking in a ball.

So, if you call "safety" and make a ball you were intending to make on an open table, do you have that group of balls, or is it still open table? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>

as a saety is a legal shot in 8 ball and as during the game a player gets credit for a ball made on a safety call then i think he is right. he did "call the ball" in that the 7 went where he played it.

you might have an out if you decide that he did not "call the 7" and therefore could not take credit for it but your opportunity to call that ended once you assumed the table and did a stroke. it does seem to leave him a possible unfair out in that he could come back later, deciding he wanted stripes and say he "never called the 7" but that would make him a low and scurrilous cur unworthy of your competition.

good question.

dan

9 Ball Girl
01-02-2003, 10:10 AM
I think you were right and your friend was wrong--since it was still an open table after the break. Had you guys established your groups, then I can see where your friend was right. Otherwise, in this situation, I believe you could've pocketed a solid ball if you wanted to.

01-02-2003, 10:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote houstondan:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Seattle-kid:</font><hr> I was playing at our team captains house (a friend of mine) last night, and a situation came up that I've never seen before.


He broke, and nothing fell. We are playing "open after the break" anyhow. So I didn't have a good shot, and the table was pretty messy, so I just hit a ball, and left him in the middle of the short rail since I didn't have a very good shot after the break.

He says "safety" and pockets the 7 ball in the corner on the opposite side of the table, and leaves the cueball on the other end of the table. The only shot I see is an off-angle solid-stripe combo, and since I believe it's still an open table, I shoot the combo hitting a solid first to pocket a stripe, and am about to continue when he says "Wait, I'm solids.. thats a foul!"

I said "Whoa, no.. the table is still open. You never established your group.." But he thinks that since he pocketed the 7 ball on a safety shot, that he has solids. I think it's still open, regardless, since he didn't pocket a called ball to establish his group before playing a safety and knocking in a ball.

So, if you call "safety" and make a ball you were intending to make on an open table, do you have that group of balls, or is it still open table? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>

as a saety is a legal shot in 8 ball and as during the game a player gets credit for a ball made on a safety call then i think he is right. he did "call the ball" in that the 7 went where he played it.

you might have an out if you decide that he did not "call the 7" and therefore could not take credit for it but your opportunity to call that ended once you assumed the table and did a stroke. it does seem to leave him a possible unfair out in that he could come back later, deciding he wanted stripes and say he "never called the 7" but that would make him a low and scurrilous cur unworthy of your competition.

good question.

dan <hr /></blockquote>

Well, actually, I let him have the next shot after I shot the combo, but he still complained he should have "ball in hand." Anyways, I we bet $20.00 on it, so if worst comes to worst, I'll use your method and say "well, you didn't ever CALL the 7 ball." I think that statement would make us even in the event that I found out he was right and that the shot was a legal means of establishing his group.

Hmm...

01-02-2003, 10:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> I think you were right and your friend was wrong--since it was still an open table after the break. Had you guys established your groups, then I can see where your friend was right. Otherwise, in this situation, I believe you could've pocketed a solid ball if you wanted to. <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif I think I'm right too. It doesn't make much sense that you could play a safety in 8-ball, by pocketing a ball, before you even have a group established.

I don't know. wierd situation.. and I've never had it come up in 4 years of playing 8-ball. ??? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

smfsrca
01-02-2003, 11:33 AM
According to the BCA rules at http://www.bca-pool.com/play/
"The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot."
A 'called ball' means you name the ball and the pocket. A 'safety' call is not a 'called ball'.

Steve in CA

Fred Agnir
01-02-2003, 11:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Seattle-kid:</font><hr>
So, if you call "safety" and make a ball you were intending to make on an open table, do you have that group of balls, or is it still open table? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>
This one is a relatively easy call. There are two rules when read together that cover this situation.

4.10 CHOICE OF GROUP
The choice of stripes or solids is not determined on the break even if balls are made from only one or both groups, because the table is always open immediately after the break shot. The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot.

and

4.16 ILLEGALLY POCKETED BALLS
An object ball is considered to be illegally pocketed when (1) that object ball is pocketed on the same shot a foul is committed, or (2) the called ball did not go in the designated pocket, or (3) a safety is called prior to the shot. Illegally pocketed balls remain pocketed and are scored in favor of the shooter controlling that specific group of balls, solids or stripes.

So, part 3 of 4.16 deems the 7-ball as illegally pocketed, and the wording of 4.10 states clearly that a choice of group can only be determined on a legally pocketed ball.

Fred

01-02-2003, 01:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Seattle-kid:</font><hr>
So, if you call "safety" and make a ball you were intending to make on an open table, do you have that group of balls, or is it still open table? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>
This one is a relatively easy call. There are two rules when read together that cover this situation.

4.10 CHOICE OF GROUP
The choice of stripes or solids is not determined on the break even if balls are made from only one or both groups, because the table is always open immediately after the break shot. The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot.

and

4.16 ILLEGALLY POCKETED BALLS
An object ball is considered to be illegally pocketed when (1) that object ball is pocketed on the same shot a foul is committed, or (2) the called ball did not go in the designated pocket, or (3) a safety is called prior to the shot. Illegally pocketed balls remain pocketed and are scored in favor of the shooter controlling that specific group of balls, solids or stripes.

So, part 3 of 4.16 deems the 7-ball as illegally pocketed, and the wording of 4.10 states clearly that a choice of group can only be determined on a legally pocketed ball.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

sorry, i didn't read enough before shooting off an answer. it never occured to me that a safety would count as an "illegally pocketed ball". the rule is clear, the table was open.
\
dan

Anonamus
01-02-2003, 03:16 PM
I played in an APA (I think that's what they call themselves)and a house league that used the term "Safety-In". When you call that you can make a legal safety shot into the pocket, count the ball as yours and not be charged a foul. I've always disliked this rule but that's how they play it. If your friend called "Safety-In" and designated the pocket, he would be right. If he just called a safety and the 7 ball fell in by accident, he would be wrong.

This is a good example of why you can easily get into a fight playing 8-ball in a bar. There are so many versions of the rules that you can't possibly agree on every scenario before you play the match.

In the future, it might be a good idea to announce your intentions before you shoot just to make sure everyone is in agreement. Don't assume everyone plays by the same rules as you do. This way you avoid the possibility of the other guy calling a foul on you and, in the case above, if you haven't shot yet you are in a better position to argue that your opponent didn't call the pocket. And if you lose the argument at least you are still at the table.

01-03-2003, 11:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Seattle-kid:</font><hr>
So, if you call "safety" and make a ball you were intending to make on an open table, do you have that group of balls, or is it still open table? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>
This one is a relatively easy call. There are two rules when read together that cover this situation.

4.10 CHOICE OF GROUP
The choice of stripes or solids is not determined on the break even if balls are made from only one or both groups, because the table is always open immediately after the break shot. The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot.

and

4.16 ILLEGALLY POCKETED BALLS
An object ball is considered to be illegally pocketed when (1) that object ball is pocketed on the same shot a foul is committed, or (2) the called ball did not go in the designated pocket, or (3) a safety is called prior to the shot. Illegally pocketed balls remain pocketed and are scored in favor of the shooter controlling that specific group of balls, solids or stripes.

So, part 3 of 4.16 deems the 7-ball as illegally pocketed, and the wording of 4.10 states clearly that a choice of group can only be determined on a legally pocketed ball.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Thank you, Fred. I knew I was right, I just couldn't find how to explain it in the rules. I never looked at 4.16 I guess. Thanks. I guess I get $20.00. haha /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

01-03-2003, 11:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Anonamus:</font><hr> I played in an APA (I think that's what they call themselves)and a house league that used the term "Safety-In". When you call that you can make a legal safety shot into the pocket, count the ball as yours and not be charged a foul. I've always disliked this rule but that's how they play it. If your friend called "Safety-In" and designated the pocket, he would be right. If he just called a safety and the 7 ball fell in by accident, he would be wrong.

This is a good example of why you can easily get into a fight playing 8-ball in a bar. There are so many versions of the rules that you can't possibly agree on every scenario before you play the match.

In the future, it might be a good idea to announce your intentions before you shoot just to make sure everyone is in agreement. Don't assume everyone plays by the same rules as you do. This way you avoid the possibility of the other guy calling a foul on you and, in the case above, if you haven't shot yet you are in a better position to argue that your opponent didn't call the pocket. And if you lose the argument at least you are still at the table. <hr /></blockquote>


Thats a good idea. I just couldn't believe someone thought that they could take solids on a "safety" shot. That doesn't make any logical sense to me, so I assumed it was open. I figured he was just trying to get the cueball at the other end of the table.

anyhow.. thanks. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif