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silverbullet
01-06-2003, 01:05 PM
Someone in another thread mentioned playing methodical with good fundamentals. I did not want to continue that there since it had nothing to do with the title of that thread.

I have been trying to learn as good fundamentals and as much technique for different types of shots as I can.

When I ask someone how did they make that shot, they say for instance left english. When I ask them how much 1/2 tip, 1 tip 2 tips, top or bottom, stroke speed, the response I usually get is 'just shoot by feel'...So even though I am not really into english that much, when someone says look at this or do it with extreme english and demos it, I try to understand how they made the shot.

I am just as 'feel' oriented as the next person but think I am trying to learn the techniques so that I won't be so hot and cold. Maybe I am just idealistic, but it seems like maybe the 'feel' part wont always be there. I mean, if it is there in my practice I knock in a bunch of balls but if it isnt there then not nearly as many go in. I guess I want to get as good a technique as I can so that as I improve, my lows wont be as low.

So what do you say here? Maybe the two are not exclusive of one another. I hope not.

bw

Cueless Joey
01-06-2003, 01:18 PM
I think those who play by feel now are that way because they have gotten their technique down to a science before and the game has become second nature to them.
Danny Diliberto said on one video "When you're not playing well, you need to exaggerate your fundamentals".
Being methodical I think doesn't hurt. I know when I line up my shoulder, bridge hand and elbow to the ghost ball before I shoot, I shoot better.

The Rhino Chaser
01-06-2003, 01:28 PM
I don't think that you can have feel without the technique. Technique comes in the beginning when learning how to pocket balls and use english. Over time you refine your technique. Once you have confidence in your technique. Then you start to devolp the feel for your game and your stroke. Figuring out what kinds of english works to pocket certain shots and move whitey around the table. IMO

Anonamus
01-06-2003, 03:07 PM
You get a "feel" for a shot by shooting it a couple of thousand times. This is true especially with banks. People will do all kinds of angle calculations and draw imaginary lines where a good player or one that is good at banks will just get up and pop it right in the hole. The good player feels the shot because he has made that shot countless times and just senses it.

You can be methodical in your play and still feel the shot. I would classify it this way. Methodical vs. loose and feel vs. calculating (or aligning). A methodical player is slow and deliberate setting up the same every shot, finding his mark and generally going through a routine where as a fast and loose player just gets up and pops balls in. The feel player doesn't worry about systems or how many tips of english he is applying, he just moves the tip on the cue ball until he thinks that should do it and then shoots the shot. A calculating shooter will line everything up just right and work everything out in his mind before hand.

You can be all of these players. It all depends on how you feel and how you are shooting. Mix it up and find what works for you when balls aren't falling.

Popcorn
01-06-2003, 03:24 PM
This is my opinion, but it comes from many years of observing players of all skill levels. You need good fundamentals as a basis of your game. At a point though it has to become second nature and you move on to another level. Players that I have observed that play very methodical, almost robotic. Will progress, but I think that kind of play will create a barrier they can't break through. You always hear someone comment how a player may not even seem to aim at the balls and make the game look so easy. That is the elusive goal everyone is looking for, the zone type of play. It is hard to play like that on purpose, it just at times will come to you. Sometimes in practice try playing mindlessly. Don't worry about anything. You will be shocked to see what you are capable of, if you turn over the rains to that other you. You don't want to play like that in a match, but it is an interesting exercise that will boost your confidence a bit. I believe almost everyone is a better player then they think they are. They just don't know how, or don't have the confidence to let it happen. When you are gambling without any constraints as far as time or the sudden death aspect of a tournament. You can catch a gear that will amaze you, you never knew you could play that good. If you never get the opportunity to experience it, you don't even know it is there.

Fred Agnir
01-06-2003, 03:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Anonamus:</font><hr> You get a "feel" for a shot by shooting it a couple of thousand times. This is true especially with banks. People will do all kinds of angel calculations and draw imaginary lines where a good player or one that is good at banks will just get up and pop it right in the hole. <hr /></blockquote>
Just as an observation, the two best bankers I have ever seen at any time (not just the best time they happen to be hitting them well) are Nick Varner and the late Gary Spaeth. Both do/did something in the order of imaginary lines.

OTOH, guys like Truman Hogue and Whitey Stephenson, two guys that at any time bank better than anyone in the world, but at other times simply do not, I never recall them drawing lines.

This observation might speak to the "mechanical vs. feel" in banks as well.

Fred

Scott Lee
01-06-2003, 05:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Anonamus:</font><hr> You get a "feel" for a shot by shooting it a couple of thousand times. This is true especially with banks. People will do all kinds of angel calculations and draw imaginary lines where a good player or one that is good at banks will just get up and pop it right in the hole. The good player feels the shot because he has made that shot countless times and just senses it.

The feel player doesn't worry about systems or how many tips of english he is applying, he just moves the tip on the cue ball until he thinks that should do it and then shoots the shot.

You can be all of these players. It all depends on how you feel and how you are shooting. Mix it up and find what works for you when balls aren't falling. <hr /></blockquote>

I would agree and disagree with what you have said. The actual number could be many times "a couple thousand" shots before someone really "FEELS" pool. It begins with learning the stroke. Once you can learn to 'feel' the stroke...and this is defined as using the weight of the cue and timing to deliver the speed of the shot (instead of gripping the cue tightly and muscling the shot)...only then can you begin to trust in your stroke and thereby begin to apply knowledge of speed and angles to your play.

Learning to "feel" banks as you are describing, cannot happen without continuous practice of solid fundamentals.
I am a "feel" player, but I teach the 'methodical' technique to my students. IMO, you can't really develope an overall "feel" for pool without first having a 'feel' for the stroke, to apply the knowledge you learn. Knowledge without execution has limited value.

Even though the "feel" player, like myself, seems to apparently just "move the tip around to where we think it is supposed to be, and hit it", I still think you must have the precise routine built into your stroke, that will allow you to hit exactly where you think you are. Perception is a lot! Many students are surprised to discover that they are not aiming at true center on the CB, often being up to 1/2 inch too high! Again, the "feeling" must come from doing it perfectly over and over and over...not just once in a while.

I agree with you that it is possible to be all of these at one time. In fact, to be able to draw from each, as the opportunity or necessity arises, would be the ultimate advantage. I think Laura just continues to overanalyze, instead of learning to trust in her stroke. Pool is a game of enjoyable experimentation, as long as you don't go overboard. Interesting post!

Scott Lee

phil in sofla
01-06-2003, 06:41 PM
The two go together rather than exist separately, IMO.

That is, for one example, there isn't any one line for banking a particular shot unless you tell me how much English if any you'll be using, and at what speed you'll be hitting the ball. And even then, I couldn't tell you the line, except approximately, and then you'd have to adjust by feel.

Now I line up banks, but that only works for me because I have a regular stroke I have learned to use in that situation. In other words, I feel the stroke I need to make that line work. If I can't use that line, I have an idea how to adjust the stroke (speed and English) to make what is available to me work instead. But is it a system, like 'now go up in speed two numbers out of a 1-10 scale'? No, it's by feel.

So, the way I see it, any system or lining things up just gives a reference, which you then need to learn and adjust to by feel.

I think it's a little easier than having to LEARN to adjust TWO things simultaneously (an approximate line AND the stroke to use down that line). When you have the line, and the stroke, then adjusting either one or both can be learned more quickly.

Check out and try out some of Grady Matthews' systems to see what I'm talking about.

snipershot
01-07-2003, 01:31 AM
I'm not sure, i've never been a big "technique" guy, every single time I shoot I implie no mechanics to my shot at all, I go by feel or whatever feels comfortable to me, not what is considered to be proper.

silverbullet
01-07-2003, 04:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Learning to "feel" banks as you are describing, cannot happen without continuous practice of solid fundamentals.
I am a "feel" player, but I teach the 'methodical' technique to my students. IMO, you can't really develope an overall "feel" for pool without first having a 'feel' for the stroke, to apply the knowledge you learn. Knowledge without execution has limited value.

I agree with you that it is possible to be all of these at one time. In fact, to be able to draw from each, as the opportunity or necessity arises, would be the ultimate advantage. I think Laura just continues to overanalyze, instead of learning to trust in her stroke. Pool is a game of enjoyable experimentation, as long as you don't go overboard. Interesting post!

[ QUOTE ]


Scott,

I think i have more confidence in my stroke than anything thanks to you and randy!!! It is the other stuff I am working on...ie--compensating for cling for instance dont do this by feel, this have to line it up and decide how much i need to compensated and adjust my aim accordingly and think(while standing) how i am going to cheat the pocket or where i want the cb to end up for shape on the next shot and what i need to do to get cb where i need it to be....that kind of thing rather than stroke, pEP, bridge, alignment, which i am pretty confident (although still practice them almost everyday at least on a few balls.)

bw

landshark1002000
01-09-2003, 01:24 AM
This feel/methodical discussion reminded me of left-brain/right-brain "thinking".
You know, one side of your brain has words and ideas, and the other side is more "intuitive". So the methodical approach uses "talking" in your head. The other one gets "feedback" from the body. It just feels right. That's the right side of your brain giving you a sense of feel.
Maybe no one knows for sure but I suspect that playing in the zone is a right brain thing. Folks talk about their experience in weird terms. They can hear OK but it's dim or unimportant. They can see the shot like a movie before they shoot. So there's this emphasis on vision over hearing and visualizing over looking. (If you know what I mean.)
You can practice some of this "feel" stuff too. Set the cue ball at any corner pocket. Point at the other corner pocket nearby. That's your target. Using a centerball hit lob the cue ball (slow speed or two table length speed -- so the ball falls into the pocket like a putt); aim at the middle diamond on the opposite short rail for a simple one rail bank. Shoot until you feel pretty confident in the shot.
Now do everything the same, except this time, just before you shoot ... close your eyes. Take the shot. Don't move after the release just listen to the sounds of your cue ball moving across the table. If you hear it fall, do it again. If you don't hear it fall ... don't move or open your eyes yet. Guess, imagine, picture your shot ... where do you think the cue ball hit the rail? Have a friend watch each shot in case you miss. They can point to the exact spot on the rail.
You can do the one rail bank with your eyes open too. Set up the cue ball for any simple one rail bank. This time picture yourself hitting the cue ball harder. How much? Hold a piece of chalk over the target pocket. Slow speed will get you to the target pocket. As you inch the chalk slowly toward the other nearby corner pocket try to feel yourself gradually stroking harder and harder until you have to stop. Put the chalk on the rail to mark the spot. Choose another spot between your target pocket and the chalk. Using speed alone (no english) try to hit your spot.
Imo, feel is your "body" or your right brain telling you it's right, guiding you. I think that trusting this feedback is what feel is all about. But that's just my opinion.