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Stretch
01-07-2003, 12:25 PM
All things being more or less equal, is the will to win the edge? I think so. Unless you have a real competative spirit, or that fire in your belly, your going to faulter against those that do. Bluntly speeking, you can't be complacent and get anywhere. This appears to contradict the advocates of staying within yourself, centred, or keeping a low arrousel state for fine motor control and concentration. I say "appears" because IMO, the two are not opposed.

You see players fighting with these two extreems all the time. They have that intense disire but unfortunately thier volatility makes them blow up and thier emotions get the best of them. Then it's easy for us in the chair to say "man what an idiot". What i see now is just a persons inability to bottle that emotion and use it constructively. It's a sign of imaturity. As your game "matures" you'll find that you can use all that fire. You can still remain burning with competative spirit, you need only learn to channel that burn into a sharper focus.

This harnessed competativeness has a greater good than game time mojo though. That "fire" is what motivates you to develope your skill, gets you to practice regularly, and inspires you to put in the time to prepare to play well. St~~~~~~~Say's "GET EXCITED!, HAVE FUN!, KICK BUTT! Take all those big emotions and funnel them down to a teeny-tiney dot on the face of an object ball....every time.

Wally_in_Cincy
01-07-2003, 12:33 PM
Bobby Knight quote:

"The most over-rated quality in athletes is the will to win. The most under-rated quality in athletes is the will to prepare to win."

Tom_In_Cincy
01-07-2003, 01:12 PM
Wally and St...

I have never seen anyone at a table "will" themselves a WIN..

You can "will" all you want.. but you have to prepare and preparation is done by PRACTICE.

"Fire" at the table is a distraction. Your juices need to be flowing at a rate that won't enfluence your stroke.. thoughts or any part of your performance.

Trust what you know and what you do, Accept the results (don't judge yourself) and remember to do all your thinking standing up..

HOWARD
01-07-2003, 04:04 PM
Stretch,

I believe in the will to win. None of us can be inside anothers mind. Still we know by placing pressure -"willing"-
yourself the norm is to tighten muscles.

So what is this "will to win" exactly. Yes it is preparation, from a nights rest, the right meal, the practice time, the attitude.

The ability to do one thing at a time and get involved in the next thing leading to outcome. Still at the same time being able to see down the road to what is coming one should or should not accept.

I believe some people are given gift of this discpline. They are the ones that always seem to be on the winning team, the ones who take two of three in all types of competions.
For the rest of us we must struggle to learn this. It is not easy.

Howard

Popcorn
01-07-2003, 04:05 PM
I think you learn a lot from observing. I have watched thousands of hours of pool by every level of player. I would put it this way. The player that wins is not the one with the will to win, so much as the one that does not allow things to create a willingness to accept losing. You can watch two players play dead even for hours only to have one lose it all in the last hour. What changed is due to the loser, not anything the winner has done. There is a certain kind player that I don't like to play and it is not based on their game as much as it is based on them personalty. Some players are just God D&*$% hard to beat. They just don't fold and force you to have to play your best at all times or you will lose, I don't care who you are. They are relentless and make you pay every time you make a mistake. They can win even if they are not the best player. They are durable, you never have anything to look forward to but a very hard game. I respect these players above all others, even if at times they may not be the most talented. Many times a talented player that is used to running over other players, can't deal with one of these guys. They are used to guys falling dead and making it easy, these players don't. It is not a will to win, in that they grit their teeth or wear a mean serious expression. They don't turn it off and on, it is something that is just in them. I know B class players that have it. Let a champion player make a bad game with them and he will get busted.

Predator
01-07-2003, 05:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> All things being more or less equal, is the will to win the edge? I think so. Unless you have a real competative spirit, or that fire in your belly, your going to faulter against those that do. Bluntly speeking, you can't be complacent and get anywhere. This appears to contradict the advocates of staying within yourself, centred, or keeping a low arrousel state for fine motor control and concentration. I say "appears" because IMO, the two are not opposed.

You see players fighting with these two extreems all the time. They have that intense disire but unfortunately thier volatility makes them blow up and thier emotions get the best of them. Then it's easy for us in the chair to say "man what an idiot". What i see now is just a persons inability to bottle that emotion and use it constructively. It's a sign of imaturity. As your game "matures" you'll find that you can use all that fire. You can still remain burning with competative spirit, you need only learn to channel that burn into a sharper focus.

This harnessed competativeness has a greater good than game time mojo though. That "fire" is what motivates you to develope your skill, gets you to practice regularly, and inspires you to put in the time to prepare to play well. St~~~~~~~Say's "GET EXCITED!, HAVE FUN!, KICK BUTT! Take all those big emotions and funnel them down to a teeny-tiney dot on the face of an object ball....every time. <hr /></blockquote>
Well, WILL in one hand and $#%+ in the other and seel which one fills up first!

Just kiddin' with ya stretch! I see your point. I honestly have noticed that when I have seen two players of the same skill playing, the one who WANTS to win more, usually does. This is usually because of the players egos and the fact that they not only want to win, but even more so, <font color="red"> </font color> they DO NOT WANT TO LOSE! I know a lot of these players that would rather eat the $5, or $10 rather than others see them lose. For some reason, they seem to think that they way you play pool reflects on what type of person they are. They think way too much about it, way too often. But yes, all being equal, the one who wants it the most and is WILLING to dig down deep and shoot above their head is probably going to win. Good point, Stretch. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif<font color="black"> </font color>

SPetty
01-07-2003, 06:02 PM
Hi Popcorn,

You have made many excellent posts, and this one is no exception. Thank you. I really like this.

Leviathan
01-07-2003, 09:10 PM
Hmm. I seem to play better when I concentrate on tactics and on executing shots.

D.M.

Alfie
01-07-2003, 11:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> All things being more or less equal, is the will to win the edge? I think so. <hr /></blockquote> I agree, Stretch.
the will to win
the killer instinct
never say die
tenacity
heart

snipershot
01-08-2003, 12:49 AM
I think the will to win is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to having the edge in a good pool game. There are so many different things that can give you the edge in a tight game, you need to have a will to win if you want to be succesful, but it doesn't guarantee sucess.

#### leonard
01-08-2003, 10:00 AM
-My favorite story about Larry Hubbart was after Artie Baron ran 125 and out on him for a hundred. Larry asked Artie if he wanted to play for 200 hundred and proceeded to beat him.####

Stretch
01-08-2003, 11:47 AM
Hi Dick! Wow, what a ballsey move. Didn't Busti pull the same thing on Archer a few years ago? St

Predator
01-08-2003, 12:15 PM
I would just like to make a point that I have found to be true about 100% of the time. In a tight game, the player that REALLY WANTS TO WIN will almost always beat the player that REALLY DOES NOT WANT TO LOSE. You guys are right, the will to win is just another way of saying "Killer Instinct", If the player that you are playing has it, and you don't, you are probably going to walk out a loser. I've come to understand that it is more than a mental game than a lot of people think, and every little bit helps. If you don't HAVE IT, then you need to get it, IMHO you need it to truly become one of the best. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

#### leonard
01-08-2003, 01:44 PM
Stretch nice seeing your posting. I heard that Busti did that to Archer. The only thing with Larry it was always his own money when him and Mike Sigel were touring. I have heard some players got 10 cents on a dollar playing.####

Rod
01-08-2003, 01:50 PM
If you don't HAVE IT, then you need to get it, IMHO you need it to truly become one of the best.

I saw "IT" on sale last week, but I don't remember the brand.LOL

Rod
01-08-2003, 02:04 PM
Leonard,
Artie lives out here and has for some time. It's been a year or two since I've seen him though.

Wally_in_Cincy
01-08-2003, 02:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> Hi Dick! Wow, what a ballsey move. Didn't Busti pull the same thing on Archer a few years ago? St
<hr /></blockquote>

IIRC the story was Archer and Bustamante were playing races to 11 for mucho dinero. Archer ran 11 straight to win a set and Bustamante said "Let's double the bet" and won the next set. something like that...... /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

TomBrooklyn
01-08-2003, 02:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I think you learn a lot from observing. <hr /></blockquote> Thats true, but when observing a better player, if you can't imitate him, don't copy him. Anyway, a lot of players don't go to pool halls anymore because they're too crowded. Sometimes you can't get a conversation going because everyone is talking so much.

It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future. Anyway, the future isn't what it used to be. However, a game is never over until its over.

Ninety percent of pool is mental, the other half is physical. Sometimes, if you have a choice of two shots, you have to take it. Occassionally, you will make a wrong mistake. If you hit a ball too softly, sometimes it won't go in.

You have to give one hundred percent in the first half of the game. If that isn't enough, you have to give everything you have left in the second half. If you get into a slump, it might be just that you aren't hitting the ball right.

You got to be careful if you don't know where you're going, because you might not get there. Sometimes the goal appears pretty far, but it doesn't seem like it. Remember, if the game were perfect, it wouldn't be.

As for watching games and learning, you can see a lot by observing.

Predator
01-08-2003, 03:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> If you don't HAVE IT, then you need to get it, IMHO you need it to truly become one of the best.

I saw "IT" on sale last week, but I don't remember the brand.LOL <hr /></blockquote>

Rod, I would love to know what IT is, maybe I need to try IT! LOL If it was that easy, EVERYONE would have IT! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Sid_Vicious
01-08-2003, 03:34 PM
The deficiency I find is the will to beat someone, winning is something I do for an internal goal and may not involve having the other guy lose. Seriously, there's a problem of a sort which may lie within that statement. My "soft side" more times than not causes me to lose. I read a book that stated that some people are afraid to win, and I'm still not sure exactly if that is true with me, but it might be, cuz I lose some of the winners and win some of the losers not by talent, but yet by luck and circumstance. When I am consistently winning, I am inside myself, the zone or whatever you want to call it, but I'm NOT in gear to kick butt or beat anyone. Beating or willing myself to win may be the addition I'd need to get in the upper rungs. Today, it ain't inside my persona...sid~~~admits though that this will to win is surely the dividing line between the common and the excellent winners, just isn't so important to me to win I guess

Popcorn
01-08-2003, 03:45 PM
"the player that REALLY WANTS TO WIN will almost always beat the player that REALLY DOES NOT WANT TO LOSE."

That may sound nutty to some people but it is true. Speaking for myself, I have made comebacks against guys that should have busted me. It is funny, sometimes they are winning and then stop trying to win, but instead begin just trying to protect what they are ahead. They seem to have a point where they become satisfied, or maybe they are just lazy and wish you would quit so they can take the money home. They don't make that extra effort it takes to finish you off. Once you begin getting it back, you can just see them wilt. I don't even care if they quit me even, I feel like I won, because they had me beat and didn't know it. It takes quit a bit to beat a good player. That is what I meant in another post about being an observer . Watching players you learn what it takes to win and see why some players lose. It is interesting.

HOWARD
01-08-2003, 04:06 PM
Tom or Yogi or Casey?

After reading that with my eyes I realized I might learn something if I could listen to it but I only hear 50% of what I see.
So I am half edumacated by your voice.

Barbara
01-08-2003, 07:15 PM
Stretch,

I have the "will to win". I've always had it. I just have lost that "killer instinct" to make it happen.

And "killer instinct" isn't an emotion. It's an emotional state of mind. When you practice having that state of mind, you will begin to acquire it. It's always a matter of practice.

Barbara /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran Crimi
01-08-2003, 07:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>

IIRC the story was Archer and Bustamante were playing races to 11 for mucho dinero. Archer ran 11 straight to win a set and Bustamante said "Let's double the bet" and won the next set. something like that...... /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Yup. I was there and saw the match. Can't remember what city though, but it must have been a tournament where the men and women were playing together. I'm thinking it might have been Orlando...anyway, it was a smart move on Bustamante's part to double the bet. Archer had nowhere to go from there but down and Bustamante had nowhere to go but up.

Fran

Fran Crimi
01-08-2003, 07:44 PM
Great post, Stretch. I see it as two emotions. 'Knowing you're going to win' is the best place to be, I feel, but if you're not quite in that frame of mind, it's always good to muster up some 'will to win', which often leads to 'knowing you're going to win.'

Fran

Stretch
01-09-2003, 02:39 PM
Fran i hear ya about "knowing your going to win". You know what? That whole additude when projected through your body language, your "presents", and backed up with solid play REALLY wares the other player down to the point where THEY believe your going to win too. LOL I've seen it, I've done it, and I've succumbed to it. Whatever name you put on "willpower" like determination, heart, courage, whatever, the effects are almost palpable. Actually YOU have an enormous amount of this, this....ahhhh "it power" yourself. I felt it the first time i saw you play. I said to myself "Yes! now there's a PRO". It's that indefinable quality, but when you see it...you just know.

Will i am /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif