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01-07-2003, 03:07 PM
How long did it take any of you to make this shot consistantly? Its taken me the best part of 3 weeks and i've noticed improvements in my stroke /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

jjinfla
01-07-2003, 04:04 PM
On a 3' x 6' table like Bert uses? Jake

Cueless Joey
01-07-2003, 05:50 PM
It has taken me forever. /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif
The key to it is a light grip, a good follow, making sure you hit the cb dead center and feel your tip make contact with the cb.

phil in sofla
01-07-2003, 08:01 PM
I have never gotten it down exactly, consistently.

It still was very valuable to me anyway, and I return to it if or when something goes haywire with my stroke.

Even not quite getting the slight roll up/replace the object ball (normally, I find the cue ball going forward slightly beyond that point), it is a pretty sensitive gauge on how straight you're stroking, AND a good meter on the force you're putting into the stroke.

Tommy_Davidson
01-08-2003, 01:52 AM
> It took me about 1000 tries before I got it down with any consistency,so about 10 days,shooting it 100 times a day. If you have the patience to use Bert's methods,they really are the "poo",so go ahead and take a good whiff. Also,if used correctly,all the shots he covers are applicable on any size table. The stroke accuracy it takes to master shot 2b for example,where you place the cue ball in the jaws of the corner pocket and draw back from a ball 6 diamonds away and scratch is the hard part,unless you are one of those rare players that don't need video instruction. Tommy D.

SPetty
01-08-2003, 11:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tommy_Davidson:</font><hr> &gt; If you have the patience to use Bert's methods,they really are the "poo", so go ahead and take a good whiff. <hr /></blockquote>Hi Tommy D.,

So in this case, you're saying that stinky poo is a good thing? I don't believe I've ever heard of stinky poo being used as a good thing. I guess you learn something new every day... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

SPetty~~~Can't wait until the next time I can tell my coworkers what a pile of stinky poo their work is, and mean it in a nice way!

01-08-2003, 12:05 PM
Hey, how 'bout a diagram for us Kinister-impaired? Thanks.

Chris Cass
01-08-2003, 12:17 PM
Here's a visual for ya Knowbody Knows,

Imagine your in a team event winning and one of your teammates are down on a ball. Right when he's prepaired to deliver his final stroke there's a santa claus looking duffus directing the sunlight coming through one of the windows onto his watch lens directly into your teammates eyes and flickering it. Then, after busting him on it he sits and laughs. A captains job is way too much to be responsible to keep 5 heads togather at the same time. To save a guy that can't fit through the door or out run them.

JAT,

C.C.~~good seeing you post something Knowbody.. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Alfie
01-08-2003, 06:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Nobody_Knows:</font><hr> Hey, how 'bout a diagram for us Kinister-impaired? <hr /></blockquote> http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

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Hit the CB just a little below center and fast enough so that the CB is just beginning to role forward when it reaches the OB. It should roll forward to occupy the position of the OB.

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woody
01-08-2003, 06:52 PM
OK 1st things 1st. I have used Bert's tapes and find them very helpfull in more ways than one. Since this post is on shot #1 that's what I will post on. This shot has helped so many aspects of my game. I had trouble with this shot in the beginning,and then in one phone call, he was able to discuss with me the basics and physics of the tip placement vs. the cue ball center in just one phone call. I owe him so much for this one shot combined with the rest of the workout. My shot making and confidence has soared. Thanks Bert!!!!

jjinfla
01-09-2003, 05:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jason:</font><hr> How long did it take any of you to make this shot consistantly? Its taken me the best part of 3 weeks and i've noticed improvements in my stroke /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

I used to practice this shot every day and shoot it until I made 40 shots without a miss. Shoot 10 one way then ten the other way. Must remember that Kinnester used a 6 foot table for that video so if you are shooting on a 9 foot table you will have to hit a little below center and a little firmer stroke to get that half ball forward roll. His shot 2B completely frustrates me and I have given up any hopes of my being able to make it. I leave shots like that to Bert and Grady and Cory and Earl. Jake~~~shot 2B is where the CB is in the jaws of one corner pocket and the OB is about 18 inches from the opposite diagonal corner pocket. Bert strokes down on the CB, makes the OB, and then the CB draws back to fall in the pocket where it started from.

Alfie
01-09-2003, 09:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> shot 2B is where the CB is in the jaws of one corner pocket and the OB is about 18 inches from the opposite diagonal corner pocket. Bert strokes down on the CB, makes the OB, and then the CB draws back to fall in the pocket where it started from. <hr /></blockquote> I think it is more like this.
http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html
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Rod
01-09-2003, 02:51 PM
[ QUOTE ]
His shot 2B completely frustrates me and I have given up any hopes of my being able to make it. I leave shots like that to Bert and Grady and Cory and Earl. Jake~~~shot 2B is where the CB is in the jaws of one corner pocket and the OB is about 18 inches from the opposite diagonal corner pocket. Bert strokes down on the CB, makes the OB, and then the CB draws back to fall in the pocket where it started from.
<hr /></blockquote>

I can't imagine why a shot like that would be in a tape book etc. An instructor should never even consider teaching something like that even to advanced players. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif I'll bet I can draw the c/b back from there but I don't see the point. That shot is at best very low percentage.

What sounds reasonable is Alfie's diagram. Those shots come up and I practice them. Not to draw the c/b in the corner pocket though. I can't shoot from there. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif LOL Here is what I do, play position on the 5 within a 1/2 diamond of B. I have to make it 10 in a row from both sides. START(
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I'd rather do that than scratch in a corner, it has a purpose. I wonder how many takes it too him to nail the shot you mentioned? Ah the wonder of editing and playing on a cracker box.

jjinfla
01-09-2003, 08:46 PM
Rod and Alfie, Both of your shots are reasonable and worth practicing. What makes Bert's shot hard is that the CB is in the jaws and you have to elevate the butt of the stick and shoot down. Maybe I am too short, or just not talented enough to be successful with it. But there are plenty of people out there who can do it, and on a 9 foot table no less. But, except for that shot all the rest in his workout tape are really worth practicing. Jake

bigbro6060
01-09-2003, 11:06 PM
Guys, am i missing something here ?

this is a simple stop shot ?

what's tough about this ?

01-09-2003, 11:19 PM
bigbro, while I haven't tried it yet myself, it looks deceptively tricky. It's a pretty long not-quite-a-stop-shot that leaves just enough forward roll on the CB to occupy the exact same spot the OB occupied. Obviously if the stroke wasn't perfectly straight, the CB would drift to one side or the other, not to mention the usual speed/slide would have to be exact to roll it forward just that much.

Just looking at it, I bet it's pretty tough to nail consistently for all but the pro's. I'll have to give it a shot tomorrow.

bigbro6060
01-10-2003, 12:12 AM
fair enough, i'm good at stop shots, even long ones but as for making the cueball occupy the space where the object ball is, i would call that a short stun run through shot. I can do them, not quite as well as stop shots and one ball length would be hard.

Snooker players master these shots very early on in their development

jjinfla
01-10-2003, 08:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bigbro6060:</font><hr> Guys, am i missing something here ?

this is a simple stop shot ?

what's tough about this ? <hr /></blockquote>

I imagine that is why Bert has it listed as his first shot. He also suggests to use it for warming up prior to a tournament. Making the OB is relatively easy but having the CB stay in line and roll forward 1/4 ball is a little tougher. I like the drill because it comes up so many times in a game. Jake

wolfsburg2
01-10-2003, 12:39 PM
i'll try that tonight me thinks /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Scott Lee
01-10-2003, 01:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr>
I imagine that is why Bert has it listed as his first shot. He also suggests to use it for warming up prior to a tournament. Making the OB is relatively easy but having the CB stay in line and roll forward 1/4 ball is a little tougher. I like the drill because it comes up so many times in a game. Jake <hr /></blockquote>

Jake...I have to disagree with you here. The shot in question (Kinnister's Shot #1), imo, is much harder to master, and much less critical, than being able to play the perfect stop shot, from any distance. There are far more opportunities where a perfect stop shot comes into play (particularly as the EASY shot), than where the CB must roll forward two inches. Kinnister's shot #1 is not only an advanced stroke shot, but may be practiced to the detriment of other parts of your game. Any shot may be practiced until accomplished. Improvement in pool comes with learning a variable stroke, using the same consistency, smoothness, and timing...not in practicing the same difficult shot hundreds of times in a row. I am not saying this is not a great shot...it is! However, it is much less important to know, than how to play a perfect stop shot.

Scott Lee

Alfie
01-10-2003, 05:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> I can't imagine why a shot like that would be in a tape book etc. An instructor should never even consider teaching something like that even to advanced players. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif I'll bet I can draw the c/b back from there but I don't see the point. That shot is at best very low percentage.

What sounds reasonable is Alfie's diagram. Those shots come up and I practice them. Not to draw the c/b in the corner pocket though. I can't shoot from there. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif LOL Here is what I do, play position on the 5 within a 1/2 diamond of B. I have to make it 10 in a row from both sides. START(
%AO4E9%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%Ek8O7%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%Pg8I8
%Rf7H0%YD4D2%Zj0J1%eB6b4)END
I'd rather do that than scratch in a corner, it has a purpose. I wonder how many takes it too him to nail the shot you mentioned? Ah the wonder of editing and playing on a cracker box. <hr /></blockquote> Rod, he calls shots 1, 2a, and 2b the stroke builders (his words). Their purpose is to groove a soft, medium, and a little harder stroke (my words).

Shot 2a is an extreme slow roll shot with barely enough speed to get the OB to the hole. He also uses this shot to introduce the idea of the fat side of the pocket.
http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html
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TomBrooklyn
01-10-2003, 05:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Alfie:</font><hr> Hit the CB just a little below center and fast enough so that the CB is just beginning to role forward when it reaches the OB. <hr /></blockquote>Does Kinnester emphasize maintaining the tip position a little below center and varying the speed to get it right, or does he say it's ok to hold the speed steady and vary the tip position or to do either?

Some instructors seem to teach primarily the move-the-tip-up-and-down method, and others the speed-of-cueball method to control the draw-stop-follow of whitey. I think all instructors teach using both tip postion and speed for advanced students; but they seem to favor one method or the other for starters.

=TB

P.S. Thanks for putting the Wei link right in your post, it makes getting the picture a lot easier.

Alfie
01-10-2003, 07:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Alfie:</font><hr> Hit the CB just a little below center and fast enough so that the CB is just beginning to role forward when it reaches the OB. <hr /></blockquote>Does Kinnester emphasize maintaining the tip position a little below center and varying the speed to get it right, or does he say it's ok to hold the speed steady and vary the tip position or to do either? <hr /></blockquote> Actually he says "use a completely centerball hit with an absolutely level stroke. The key to making the CB replace the OB is the speed of the stroke. Stroke it so that the CB is just starting to turn over as it hits the OB. The importance of the shot is that it is the hardest you should ever have to shoot playing 9-ball. [With this shot speed] you can make the CB go anywhere you want on the table."

"I don't care who you are, you're shooting the ball too hard." He goes on to say that when you see champions play you think they are hitting the balls hard (but they aren't necessarily) so you try to hit the balls hard. But actually you will find that a speed less than half of what you are using will be more than enough to do whatever needs to be done. And "the slower you hit the balls, the more accurately you're going to hit the balls."

Of course, he is using a 6' table on this tape. I don't know if his thoughts would be the same with regards to a 9' (i.e., use completely centerball). Anyone have that conversation with Bert?

I take the liberty to say a little or a hair below center for the big table crowd. The correct speed to replace the OB with a true centerball hit on a 9' seems a little too fast, IMO. I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

jjinfla
01-10-2003, 07:54 PM
Hi Scott, Well actually, now that you mention it I do have to admit that when I practice that shot I really don't try for the 1/4 ball forward roll, my main concern is to be able to consistently make the OB and stop the CB. So what I really am practicing is just the ordinary stop shot. But I am amazed at how many times straight in shots where the CB and OB are about 4 feet apart and the OB is 2-3 feet from a pocket come up. And when they come up my confidence factor for making them is at least 95%. Jake

Scott Lee
01-10-2003, 08:53 PM
Jake...LOL I figured that was you meant anyway! It does help your confidence...for THAT speed stroke. What you want, is to become 'super' confident with being able to shoot that same 4 foot shot with a lag speed stroke, as well!...which is obviously finesse draw!

Scott

Rod
01-10-2003, 09:09 PM
Sure I understand that Alfie. It was Jake's description of the c/b being in the pocket jaws and the o/b where it is that troubled me. Then draw the c/b back and scratch in the same pocket! Like I said I could do that but why? Low percentage for anyone. I mean that's not a worthwhile shot to practice for the average JQ public. Now where you have the balls is ok. Maybe Jake forgot where both balls were? don't know.

Barbara
01-10-2003, 09:14 PM
I practice this shot every time I make the effort to do drills. And I practice at each side of the table - one rack on the right side rail and one rack on the left side rail. And why? Because humans are a "side-natured" mammal and has a natural tendency to one side or the other. Horses are another animal that have to be drilled on their "opposite side" for equestrain competition. Horses are generally mounted on their left side, but they have to be coached and rode to use their opposite natural side, and just like humans, it could be the left or the right.

I've always practiced drills on "both" sides of table.

This is a great shot. I even love it when the CB goes further than the OB, and still goes center ball straight forward!!! Even in the pocket. It means I'm stroking straight through!

Barbara~~~gotta get strokin' next week... hooo Baby!!!/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rod
01-10-2003, 09:17 PM
For that shot I say center ball, but then again it depends on the table conditions. Any amount of low on new cloth will stop it dead. That's where speed adjustment is so important for the conditions. It's not a cut and dry explanation. I'm sure he trys to put you in the range, then you adjust.

Rod
01-10-2003, 09:28 PM
That's exactly right Barbara, both sides. It has more to do with alignment and aim than anything. Players have a better side whether they know it or not. My fav side is where all the balls go in. LOL

socrates
01-10-2003, 09:36 PM
Interesting discussion on this post. I may be wrong as I often am, but it seems to me this discussion does lead to a point. That being that it is important to have an objective when you practice a shot or a drill.

Shot #1 to me is a stroke builder shot. To get that ball to turn over 1/4 turn requires the shot to be hit so it arrives just at the end of the sliding ball which requires a precise stroke delivered at precise speed.

I consider this speed to be "stroke speed." IMO somewhere between 4.5 and 5.5 on a scale of 1-10. Others might refer to this as a medium speed hit.

It appears to me that when you are playing well and leaving yourself the correct angles this is the speed of stroke that you will hit the majority of your shots. Buddy Hall's pattern play reminds me of this as it just appears to me that he is a player that seems to hit the balls at the same speed the majority of the time.

Accordingly, for me, sensing that "stroke speed" is one of the objectives when practicing this shot.

Scott Lee in his post refers to a stop shot that I have often heard of as a draw drag stop shot. Another shot worth putting in your practice routine. If I am correct in what Scott was descibing this shot allows you to take speed off the stroke -say for a long stop shot- producing a stop shot result but making the pocket play larger since you were able to take speed off the shot. As opposed to the speed the shot would need to be hit at using a center ball hit over that distance. To me the objective here is learning a combination of cueing below center and speed of stroke to produce a stop shot from varying distances.

Sorry so long but setting objectives for practice shots and drills has been helpful for me and keeps me from falling into a session where I am practicing without a purpose.

Alfie
01-10-2003, 10:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> Sure I understand that Alfie. It was Jake's description of the c/b being in the pocket jaws and the o/b where it is that troubled me. Then draw the c/b back and scratch in the same pocket! Like I said I could do that but why? Low percentage for anyone. I mean that's not a worthwhile shot to practice for the average JQ public. Now where you have the balls is ok. Maybe Jake forgot where both balls were? don't know. <hr /></blockquote> No, Jake was correct. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif The ball position on the tape for both 2a and 2b has the CB a few inches out from the pocket with Bert bridging off the back of the pocket. But remember, he's on a 6' table.
http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html
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It's been so long since I watched the tapes (until tonight). I was going off of my 6' to 9' conversion diagrams.

Kinister does state at the start of the 2b presentation that 'it's OK to move the CB closer to the OB if you find the shot too difficult.'
For example, START(%Eg8U2%P[3O2%Wr1Z2%X\1O6)END

My diagram is continued fudging for the 9' table. Of course, once you get proficient enough, feel free to increase the distance between the balls. I would also recommend fudging the size of the "scratch" target if necessary to establish an initial benchmark and to introduce at least some degree of success. It all depends on the player's skill level.

IMO, making most any drill a progressive drill is a good thing.

Rod
01-10-2003, 11:19 PM
Ok, I was under the impression the c/b was in the jaws of the pocket, much easier from there. Progressive is a good thing. I hope Bert or anyone that suggests such drills at least mentions to be warmed up first! Starting out with that shot 4 to 6" from the pocket is not good, unless your warmed up, IMO.

Scott Lee
01-10-2003, 11:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote socrates:</font><hr> .To me the objective here is learning a combination of cueing below center and speed of stroke to produce a stop shot from varying distances.<hr /></blockquote>

Steve...That is exactly what I said. IMO, it is immeasurably more practical to be able to hit the stop shot from any distance, at all speeds...than to 'master' the "replacement shot"! LOL

Scott

MaineEAck
01-11-2003, 09:41 AM
I know a ton of people who can make this... START(
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make the ball, and draw back to the pocket... I can make it 1:4 on a good day.... I just don't try to power anything, a smooth stroke does the job.