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Karatemom
01-08-2003, 03:36 PM
I've shot with an 18 oz Lucasi and a 19.5 oz McDermott. The McDermott is extremely butt heavy while the Lucasi is more evenly balanced throughout the cue. I have been shooting with the Lucasi now for about 3 1/2 months, and have decided to go back to the heavier cue for a while to see if there is a difference in the weight factor. I notice that when I shoot with the heavier stick, I have a bit more control over whitey than I do with the lighter cue. Is there a reason for this, or is it all psychological because I have changed cues? I used to think that it was the person behind the cue, not the cue itself, but now I'm wondering. What are the pros and cons of heavy and light cues?

Heide

Bob_in_Cincy
01-08-2003, 04:12 PM
Hi K-Mom,

Well, the major difference is that ....... one weighs more than the other /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif. Sorry ... couldn't resist. What's the balance point of both? It sounds like the Lucasi is more forward that the McD. (??) My 19.5 oz. cue has a balance point ( from memory ) about 1-1&1/4" forward of the wrap. That seems to be about right for me. Maybe the heavier stick is more forgiving of minor stroke anomalies ?? Other than that, I don't know. Players have preferences, & reasons for those, in weight & balance point. I'm not sure there's a one-size-fits-all answer here, but I'm sure the more experienced folks here have some wisdom they can share. Me, I'm still tryin'to get some :-). It would be interesting to know if this feeling continues or if you go back to the 18 oz. stick.

Regards,
Bob_in_Cincy

Tom_In_Cincy
01-08-2003, 04:29 PM
Heide,

I started with a 16 oz cue in the 1960s then went to an 18 oz cue in the 70s. I noticed more control over the cue ball and stayed with the 18 oz cue until I got a 21 oz cue made by Bob Meucci.. in 1987. My control was much better and I was very happy until I decided to get a Joss in 1997. I just always wanted a Joss (20.5 oz) and got a great deal on one and made the transition very easily.

NOW I got a chance and took it on getting a custom cue made to my specs. 12.75 mm tip (played with a 13.25 and 13 mm tip for the longest time) .. 10 inch taper versus the 15 inch pro taper.. (since it was a 12.75 tip.. I wanted the taper to be shorter.. so that I could still have a stiff shaft.)

the weight is 19.7 oz.. I have come down on my weight from 21 to 20.5 to 19.7 and really can't tell a difference.

BTW.. if anyone is interested in designing a cue to your own specs contact Pete Omen at www.omencues.com (http://www.omencues.com) for truely service oriented professional services. My cue is exactly what I wanted. Pete kept communicating with me during the construction process and sent me pics of the progress.. this is really a great way to work with a cuemaker..

Fred Agnir
01-08-2003, 04:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Karatemom:</font><hr> I've shot with an 18 oz Lucasi and a 19.5 z McDermott. The McDermott is extremely butt heavy while the Lucasi is more evenly balanced throughout the cue. I have been shooting with the Lucasi now for about 3 1/2 months, and have decided to go back to the heavier cue for a while to see if there is a difference in the weight factor. I notice that when I shoot with the heavier stick, I have a bit more control over whitey than I do with the lighter cue. Is there a reason for this, or is it all psychological because I have changed cues? <hr /></blockquote>
There are good theories that the science guys like to say. The heavier the cuestick, the more it likes to stay "in motion." The phyicisist will clarify this by saying that "in motion" also means "with constant velocity" which has a directional component. That is, it likes to stay straight more readily as the weight goes up.

I also think that as the weight increases, a person can tell more readily that the stroke is going awry and can compensate (with the super-fast computer brain/body system).

Like everything, there's always a good with the bad, however.

Fred &lt;~~~ thinks there are optimal parameters specifica for every individual

Karatemom
01-08-2003, 05:17 PM
Hi Bob. Okay, here are the specs. Both cues are 58" in length. The Lucasi is 12" from joint to wrap, with the balance point being approximately 3" from the wrap. My D19 is 13" from joint to wrap with the balance point around 2" from the wrap. The McDermott is a little heavier in the back, but not by much. There's only 1.5 oz difference between the two. Sure doesn't sound like much but you can definitely feel the difference!


Heide ~ damn D19 weighs almost as much as I do /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Karatemom
01-08-2003, 05:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr>
I started with a 16 oz cue in the 1960s then went to an 18 oz cue in the 70s. I noticed more control over the cue ball and stayed with the 18 oz cue until I got a 21 oz cue made by Bob Meucci.. in 1987. My control was much better and I was very happy until I decided to get a Joss in 1997. I just always wanted a Joss (20.5 oz) and got a great deal on one and made the transition very easily.
<hr /></blockquote>

Was cb control the reason that you upgraded to a heavier cue?

I don't know enough to know what to look for in a cue. If it looks good, then buy it, LOL. When we went cue shopping for my first cue, I went on looks alone. They didn't have the cue I liked (I think it had hearts on it or something), so I got the next best thing, a blue cue (my favorite color), and it just happened to be the D19.

When we went looking for another cue last year, before I got my Lucasi, I was able to shoot with about 5 or 6 different cues. They all seemed to hit the same, but it was the feel that led me to the Lucasi. It just felt right. The Meucci didn't have a wrap, which I didn't like. The Viking's shaft was way too thick and the wrap felt like sandpaper. There were a few others, but I can't remember what they were or why I didn't like them. They probably just didn't feel good in my hands, /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

I don't know the difference in the hit of different tips, between wood or stainless steel joints, etc. It's all the same to me, at least so far. Or maybe I'm just too easy and simple to please. I do know that if I go any heavier with a cue, the damn thing will outweigh me! hahahaha. We can't have that now.

Heide ~ has seen the Omen line, very nice buy

Karatemom
01-08-2003, 05:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> There are good theories that the science guys like to say. The heavier the cuestick, the more it likes to stay "in motion." The phyicisist will clarify this by saying that "in motion" also means "with constant velocity" which has a directional component. That is, it likes to stay straight more readily as the weight goes up.

I also think that as the weight increases, a person can tell more readily that the stroke is going awry and can compensate (with the super-fast computer brain/body system).

Like everything, there's always a good with the bad, however.

Fred &lt;~~~ thinks there are optimal parameters specifica for every individual <hr /></blockquote>

Now that makes sense to me, Fred. The lighter the stick, the easier it is to manuever, or miscue, or hit on the wrong spot on the cb, which I have been seen doing. The heavier it is, the straighter it will follow. Thanks for putting that in perspective for me, Fred.

Heide ~ loves reading Fred's posts

Rod
01-08-2003, 05:47 PM
Hi Heide,
You need to be able to swing the weight of the cue. Having said that, swing, is the key word. When a cue is to light for someone they have a hard time feeling the weight. If it is to heavy they feel to much weight. Either way speed control may be an issue. BTW that is a huge change from 18 oz to 19 1/2oz. You say the MD is butt heavy but if you had a different weight screw so it weighed 18 1/2 to 19 it wouldn't feel near as heavy. Moderation is what your looking for, or better put the right weight for you given the weight distribution.

I'm not going to get into physics and all, someone may. LOL
If you need a fast cue speed for a break or any firm shot and the cue is to heavy. It being to heavy causes you to force the weight. Forcing the weight is not swinging the weight of the cue. When you force this motion, something else moves. That might be your shoulder, head, wrist, your grip is likely going to be way to tight.

To light is another issue. You can move this cue faster but you may loose all sense of how fast because you don't feel the weight. In either case they can have an effect on all shot speeds from soft to firm.

You need a cue that has a happy range for you. In other words you can draw or follow equally well and have good speed control at any distance.

What I do, If a cue feels to heavy I'll buy or make a lighter weight pin or cut off a little of the stock bolt. I know somewhere very close to 19oz is right for me. Even if I didn't know the weight but it was heavy I'd cut off or put in about 1/2" shorter screw, 3/8" bolt. Then play with it for a week. After that I'd adjust, either a bit heaver or lighter. What I'm after is a cue that feels the same every day. That's not possible though because of changes in your body chemistry day to day. What I get, like my playing cue, is it may feel just right, it may feel a tad light or it may feel a tad heavy. That IMO is what you want. That is the happy balance your looking for as your cue weight. BTW I don't mean the balance point.

HOWARD
01-08-2003, 06:12 PM
Heide,

My mentor told me using a heavier cue- it was easier, meaning that you did not have to work as hard to draw, follow or apply english to the cb.

Kind of like higher proof booze more bounce per oz.

Howard

Karatemom
01-08-2003, 10:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote HOWARD:</font><hr> Heide,

My mentor told me using a heavier cue- it was easier, meaning that you did not have to work as hard to draw, follow or apply english to the cb.

Kind of like higher proof booze more bounce per oz.

Howard <hr /></blockquote>

Howard, that was one of the first things I noticed. I had a hard time drawing the cb back 1/2 the table much less the full length. But with the McDermott, I find that drawing the ball is much easier and don't put as much force behind it.

I played some one pocket tonite with it. Seemed to shoot just fine. Got used to it real quick.

Heide

Karatemom
01-08-2003, 10:15 PM
Hiya, Rod! We tried putting another weight bolt in the McD and they don't make that size anymore. I would have had to custom order one from McDermott, and even then I'm not sure they made them anymore. We tried to have one made by a friend, but the threads just didn't match up. I didn't want the bolt cut because once you cut it, you can't get it back should you need to. So for a while, I shot without a bolt in it. It was lighter but not enough for me to tell much difference. I believe the bolt was .5 oz. So even without the bolt, the damn thing was still heavy.

Now, I don't know that it is a heavy cue. It is just heavier than my other one. What is right for me? I have no clue, I guess that's what I'm trying to figure out. I think that with the knowledge I've gained over the past several months, I know how to control the cb better than previous, and therefore the heavier cue works better for me. I don't know, I'm just grasping at straws now, or shall I say "cues", /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif. I suppose time will tell.

Heide

Tom_In_Cincy
01-08-2003, 10:16 PM
Heide..

Yes.. cue ball control is always my reason for any change. I always seemed to make a good choice.. Lucky I think.. but every cue I buy.. my consistancy in cue ball control seems to get better.. I am sure that its part mental.. change has an impact that brings out other glitches.. that can be worked on.. with the new cue.. The new Omen cue has a very nice pressed linen wrap..and feels very well balanced.. I don't like forward balanced cues.. both the Meucci and Joss are center balanced. in fact the 21oz Meucci is so well balanced... that a lot of people thought it weighed 19 oz.

Hope you make a good choice...

Leviathan
01-09-2003, 04:07 AM
...And a heavier cue doesn't have to move as fast as a lighter one to drive the CB a given distance. (At least that's my impression; I hope someone will correct me if I've got the physics wrong.) It seems to me that players who have slower strokes generally prefer heavier cues and that players who have quicker strokes generally prefer lighter ones.

D.M.

Fred Agnir
01-09-2003, 07:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Leviathan:</font><hr> ...And a heavier cue doesn't have to move as fast as a lighter one to drive the CB a given distance. (At least that's my impression; I hope someone will correct me if I've got the physics wrong.) It seems to me that players who have slower strokes generally prefer heavier cues and that players who have quicker strokes generally prefer lighter ones.

D.M. <hr /></blockquote>
The physics agrees. All other things being equal, a lighter stick must go faster to get the same amount of momentum.

My personal opinion is that a cue's balance greatly affect the "weight" issue. Carrying a load (say a 100 lb 12' beam) at or near its balance point is a whole lot different than trying to carry that load far away from it's balance point (e.g. the very end of it). So, weight alone is a little misleading in the stick/arm system. Where you carry the cue in relation to the balance point can make a big difference in your normal stroke.

Fred

Leviathan
01-09-2003, 07:50 AM
Fred: Good point. Weight distribution makes a big difference. I'm tall and have long arms, so I have to grip my cues close to the butt--far away from the balance point. I select cues with lightweight joints partly for this reason. Tall players never have the luxury of playing with properly balanced cues; our cues are always "heavy" in our bridge hand.

D.M.

Fred Agnir
01-09-2003, 08:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Leviathan:</font><hr> Tall players never have the luxury of playing with properly balanced cues; our cues are always "heavy" in our bridge hand.<hr /></blockquote>

A call for custom cue work.

Fred